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Tallaran Kouros
Caldari
Sc0rched Earth
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Posted - 2009.08.15 13:09:00 -
[1]
I've been following the healthcare debate that's been playing out in the media over the last few weeks, and I must admit I am quite confused as to what the big deal is over free healthcare and why there is so much resistance to it in the US.
Can someone explain why so many Americans are so afraid of free healthcare and what their big arguement against it is?
From what I have seen in the media, my impression is that people are afraid that their care will be rationed, that they will have to wait for some time before being treated, that the Government will interfere in their treatment and that ultimately, they are going to be paying money to fund treatment for the poor and those who are less well off.
Each month I pay 180 quid in National Insurance. NI is a proportional tax on income up to a certain level and for that I get to see my GP as often as I need for any reason whatsoever, and I don't need to pay for their time. If I need to get a prescription for any medication, I don't need to pay the doctor a fee to write the prescription nor do I need to pay for the medication. There is currently (it will be abolished in a couple of years) a prescription tax that I pay per item/line of 5 pounds. An item could be for 14 tablets or it could be for 200 tablets, so long as it's the one "item" then the charge is the same.
The prescription tax is the *only* out of pocket expense I need to pay - there are no deductables or co-pays or claim limits or anything, and nobody needs to "approve" the medication; if the doctor thinks I need it then I get it.
I take a medication at the moment that can cause heart problems, so my GP wanted to send me for an ECG recently, just to check everything was ok. She printed me a referal letter that I took down to a local community treatment centre at a time of my choosing, sat in a waiting room for 20 minutes then had my ECG. Again, it cost me nothing.
There have been times in the past where for some reason or another I've needed emergency treatment at a hospital and yes, on a Friday or a Saturday night there can be a wait of maybe an hour or two if it's a minor issue like a fracture, but if you arive in an ambulance in an emergency then you will be seen there and then and nobody asks how you can pay or if you have insurance - you just get your treatment and that's that.
Now, I think my experiences are pretty normal for most people in the UK.
If you need more complex treatment or any form of elective surgery that's not going to kill you if you wait, then there might be a waiting list for treatment but it's not "rationed" - if the treatment is medically nescesary then you get it and there is no panel of Government beurocrats that need to look at your treatment and decide if it can be afforded or not.
Sure I pay money each month and rarely need to see a doctor or attend a hospital, but if I *wasn't* working and wasn't paying then that's fine, I would be covered also and that's the big difference between here and the US - everyone is covered regardless of their income (or lack of it) and up to a certain limit, as you earn more you pay a bit more. I've been employed and contributed, but I've also been unemployed and not contributed and during those times I was glad that I could get treatment and not have to worry about being able to afford any medical bill.
For those of you who really, really don't like the idea of waiting lists and want to say that with their US health insurance they get immediate treatment, then guess what - we have medical insurance here too! If you want to sign up with Buba or Cigna or any other private health care provider then you are absolutely free to do that if you want, but hardly anyone does because for the most part the NHS is prefectly adaquate.
I really would like for some Americans to say exactly what they get for their health insurance and why they are so afraid of a free medical system? What's the big deal?
I just don't get all tyhe fear.
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Mr Reason
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Posted - 2009.08.15 13:12:00 -
[2]
I could reply but I'd probably be outed as a softie, filthy, spineless European who "doesn't get freedom" and who's trolling. Yes I'm aware that this reply can be considered trolling but truth be told; trying to have a discussing will also get you accused of trolling so the net result is the same.
Possible temporary solution to the keylogger posts, read and reply. |
Rawr Cristina
Caldari
Annihilate.
Avarice.
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Posted - 2009.08.15 13:23:00 -
[3]
We still have private healthcare in the UK, but honestly I don't see how people can cope without public healthcare. If someone has life-threatening injuries, they're given priority there and then.
- Malyutka (The Virus) - |
Pitt
Gallente
Invicta.
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Posted - 2009.08.15 13:49:00 -
[4]
Simplest answer, fear and greed. Change is difficult for people and the large insurance and medical companies (that make hugh profits, in the multi billion range) are the one's not wanting to let go of the curent system. People belive they won't recive adequate health care, and the large companies have made sure to propgate that lie. Just for good comparison, I pay $750 a month for health ins. and that's with a $2k deductable. Health care, insurance, proper care in america is a myth until you hit the age of 65 and get medicare...
How many must die in the name of God before the Devil is satisfied |
Sniper Wolf18
Gallente
A Pretty Pony Princess
General Tso's Alliance
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Posted - 2009.08.15 14:37:00 -
[5]
Nhs is terribad
And to finish, thank you for reading my sig
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If you are still reading i would probably hav posted by now |
Iasius
Mercurialis Inc.
Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2009.08.15 15:29:00 -
[6]
I don't think you can ever have your cake and eat it with medical healthcare.
My mother remarried to an American. They went to USA to live. As part of my mums new medical policy she got a very comprehensive health checkup. This identified breast cancer in its early stages. She got very good treatment including 24 hour call out from a doctor. Cancer treatment is aggresive and never pleasant but she recovered insofar as the tumors were removed. But there is always residual complications with cancer, it can reoccur.
But her and her american husbands healthcare costs rose to a total of $15,000 a year which they cant afford. So they have just moved back to the UK so they can get NHS treatment.
The NHS would not have been pre-emptive and done a scan for breast cancer. In the USA she got the very best treatment with the best medications. But her healthcare costs rose to the point where she and her american husband could not afford it as retirees.
US healthcare spending as a percentage of GDP is far higher in the USA than western Europe yet the relative life expectancy in the USA has dropped from 11th to 42nd in the list of countries. This is more to do with many folk in USA have poor lifestyles, being obese and having a poor diet.
From what i have read some Americans crazied reaction to the healthcare debate is because they will loose their preferential treatment from a system that is generous to some but mean to others.
Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes. ~Saint |
Jonny 101
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.08.15 15:41:00 -
[7]
I'm 24, but I still had my heart and lungs checked last year, it was free.
If you need the government to hold your hand and TELL you to test for life threatning diseases you KNOW you're at risk for, well then you got a problem bigger than health care :P
Just go to your doctor and say "I think its time we do a few checkups" every now and then. at least in civilized countries where you dont pay a cent for it :P
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Iasius
Mercurialis Inc.
Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2009.08.15 15:51:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Iasius on 15/08/2009 15:51:12
I a don't trust the NHS myself. Spent a week in hospital as a ECG identified an abnormal heartbeat. Still don't have a solid diagagnosis yet. I missed an MRI as during an Angiagram procedure a pervert male nurse touched my d*ck. The procedure did not neccesitate the male nurse touch it nor give me a nudge on the shoulder with a smirk like it was a joke.
Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes. ~Saint |
Awesome Possum
Insert Obscure Latin Name
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Posted - 2009.08.15 15:54:00 -
[9]
Same reason some Americans are against welfare. I don't want my tax dollars going to help those that can't afford to help themselves.
Public education is free and available for every child in the US. If Joe goes and studies and gets a great job, why should he have to pay for Jim's food stamps and healthcare. Especially when Jim spent his school years getting trashed and not paying attention?
And this is only referring to those educated in public schools, never mind the whole "elitist private school kid" argument.
In the end, its all a matter of "Keep my tax money out of other citizens' pockets."
There are plenty of charities where Joe can donate to help the less fortunate in need, it should be a private matter for his own conscience to decide. It shouldn't be forced from him by his own government at gunpoint.
♥
Wreck Disposal Services |
Cyprus Black
Caldari
4 wing
Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2009.08.15 16:04:00 -
[10]
We Americans are not afraid of free health care. We do want it.
Unfortunately we've got a lot of anti health care propaganda going around, spread by lobbyists and anyone who's wallets get hit by it.
Lots of lies and disinformation being spread through commercials and media everywhere. Fox News certainly isn't helping either. They're one of the biggest propaganda pushers.
______________
Stupid people are amazingly clever at being stupid. They excel at slipping through idiot proof measures. |
MaxxOmega
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Posted - 2009.08.15 16:10:00 -
[11]
Edited by: MaxxOmega on 15/08/2009 16:11:28
Edited by: MaxxOmega on 15/08/2009 16:10:30
 Originally by: Awesome Possum
Same reason some Americans are against welfare. I don't want my tax dollars going to help those that can't afford to help themselves.
Public education is free and available for every child in the US. If Joe goes and studies and gets a great job, why should he have to pay for Jim's food stamps and healthcare. Especially when Jim spent his school years getting trashed and not paying attention?
And this is only referring to those educated in public schools, never mind the whole "elitist private school kid" argument.
In the end, its all a matter of "Keep my tax money out of other citizens' pockets."
There are plenty of charities where Joe can donate to help the less fortunate in need, it should be a private matter for his own conscience to decide. It shouldn't be forced from him by his own government at gunpoint.
I hear you. As a Canadian, we are taxed to the nutz to pay for people who made crappy life choices, and now they expect to have a lifestyle that they can't possibly earn. Being a single mother in Canada is a free meal ticket for life.
The problem as I see it, is if we took away all the handouts from the bumz, there are so many that they would rise up in masse and take what they want. There are just so many of them. Here in Toronto 2 BILLION dolars a year are spent on social services. That is apalling. And so much of it goes to foreign losers who don't even know what English means but hey they gave us the pleasure of their appearance to help make Toronto the most multi-cultural (backward) city in the world.
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Jonny 101
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.08.15 16:11:00 -
[12]
Poverty and desperation leads to crime, and it's harder to move up the social and economic ladder if you start on rock bottom.
For a more stable society its beneficial to help even the lazy ****s out a little.
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Grimpak
Gallente
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2009.08.15 16:13:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Grimpak on 15/08/2009 16:14:04
Originally by: Awesome Possum
Public education is free and available for every child in the US. If Joe goes and studies and gets a great job, why should he have to pay for Jim's food stamps and healthcare. Especially when Jim spent his school years getting trashed and not paying attention?
fair enough, but what about Sam who did had a proper education, but for some reason or another, he simply can't land on a job?
there isn't always two sides of the same coin, and some people are poor due to simple bad luck.
While I agree that medical wellfare is too widening, by treating anyone and everyone equally, it also gives a chance to those who for some reason or the other would be unable to pay for medical care otherwise.
---
Quote:
The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Awesome Possum
Insert Obscure Latin Name
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Posted - 2009.08.15 16:18:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Cyprus Black
We Americans are not afraid of free health care. We do want it.
Unfortunately we've got a lot of anti health care propaganda going around, spread by lobbyists and anyone who's wallets get hit by it.
Lots of lies and disinformation being spread through commercials and media everywhere. Fox News certainly isn't helping either. They're one of the biggest propaganda pushers.
Do not speak for all Americans.
Healthcare is only free if you're an uneducated slob who can't get a job better than Walmart.
♥
Wreck Disposal Services |
MaxxOmega
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Posted - 2009.08.15 16:18:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Jonny 101
Poverty and desperation leads to crime, and it's harder to move up the social and economic ladder if you start on rock bottom.
For a more stable society its beneficial to help even the lazy ****s out a little.
Absolutey we should. But where do we draw the line? In my home province, my wife worked as a nurse. There were Canadian indians who had 5 kids at 19 because evertime they popped out another they "got a bigger cheque". Forced sterilization at that point should be a must...
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Awesome Possum
Insert Obscure Latin Name
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Posted - 2009.08.15 16:19:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Grimpak
Edited by: Grimpak on 15/08/2009 16:14:04
Originally by: Awesome Possum
Public education is free and available for every child in the US. If Joe goes and studies and gets a great job, why should he have to pay for Jim's food stamps and healthcare. Especially when Jim spent his school years getting trashed and not paying attention?
fair enough, but what about Sam who did had a proper education, but for some reason or another, he simply can't land on a job?
there isn't always two sides of the same coin, and some people are poor due to simple bad luck.
While I agree that medical wellfare is too widening, by treating anyone and everyone equally, it also gives a chance to those who for some reason or the other would be unable to pay for medical care otherwise.
I agree, which is what private charities are for. There's plenty of private institutions that Sam can receive help at, either job hunting, housing, food, or care for his kids.
Unless he's a white male, of course. Stop the racism/sexism 
♥
Wreck Disposal Services |
Tallaran Kouros
Caldari
Sc0rched Earth
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Posted - 2009.08.15 16:21:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Awesome Possum
Originally by: Grimpak
Edited by: Grimpak on 15/08/2009 16:14:04
Originally by: Awesome Possum
Public education is free and available for every child in the US. If Joe goes and studies and gets a great job, why should he have to pay for Jim's food stamps and healthcare. Especially when Jim spent his school years getting trashed and not paying attention?
fair enough, but what about Sam who did had a proper education, but for some reason or another, he simply can't land on a job?
there isn't always two sides of the same coin, and some people are poor due to simple bad luck.
While I agree that medical wellfare is too widening, by treating anyone and everyone equally, it also gives a chance to those who for some reason or the other would be unable to pay for medical care otherwise.
I agree, which is what private charities are for. There's plenty of private institutions that Sam can receive help at, either job hunting, housing, food, or care for his kids.
Unless he's a white male, of course. Stop the racism/sexism
If there are that many private charities that offer this, then why is healthcare (or the lack of) such a big issue then?
I understand what you are saying about not wanting your taxes spent to pay for those who can't afford health care, but what if one day something happens and suddenly it's you that can't afford health care?
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Kurfin
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Posted - 2009.08.15 16:22:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Awesome Possum
Same reason some Americans are against welfare. I don't want my tax dollars going to help those that can't afford to help themselves.
Public education is free and available for every child in the US. If Joe goes and studies and gets a great job, why should he have to pay for Jim's food stamps and healthcare. Especially when Jim spent his school years getting trashed and not paying attention?
And this is only referring to those educated in public schools, never mind the whole "elitist private school kid" argument.
In the end, its all a matter of "Keep my tax money out of other citizens' pockets."
There are plenty of charities where Joe can donate to help the less fortunate in need, it should be a private matter for his own conscience to decide. It shouldn't be forced from him by his own government at gunpoint.
Are you serious????
What would you say to a mother or father dying of a curable disease, who was unable to afford heathcare? I'm sorry you won't see your children grow up, but I need a bigger TV?
Also I bet you'd change your opinion you developed something that would label you as having a 'pre-existing condition', possibly putting health insurance above your means. Or indeed if you found yourself unemployed.
Another point for you to consider if everyone had enough money to afford health insurance, you would have to pay more for goods and services to cover the increase wage expense of supplying them.
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ceaon
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.08.15 16:36:00 -
[19]
free health care is not good for business simple like that anything else is just crap to mislead ppl
Please resize your signature to the maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist
EvE FTW |
Awesome Possum
Insert Obscure Latin Name
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Posted - 2009.08.15 16:37:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Kurfin
What would you say to a mother or father dying of a curable disease, who was unable to afford heathcare? I'm sorry you won't see your children grow up, but I need a bigger TV?
Also I bet you'd change your opinion you developed something that would label you as having a 'pre-existing condition', possibly putting health insurance above your means. Or indeed if you found yourself unemployed.
Another point for you to consider if everyone had enough money to afford health insurance, you would have to pay more for goods and services to cover the increase wage expense of supplying them.
1. I am currently unemployed.
2. I am an undereducated American.
3. I currently have ZERO insurance.
4. My mother has severe health issues and lives off state welfare and private charities.
I am not going to change my views or beliefs just because they would personally better my own life. Hypocrisy?
As for mom/dad with the curable disease; that's what private charities are for, that's what donation drives are for, and finally if all else fails, its called population control.
Your final point is crap and you know it. "Free" healthcare will cause the same amount of inflation.
♥
Wreck Disposal Services |
Grimpak
Gallente
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2009.08.15 16:43:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Awesome Possum
I am not going to change my views or beliefs just because they would personally better my own life. Hypocrisy?
fair point, but tbh sometimes, unfortunately, that's simple idealism
some people don't care about views or beliefs. some people are simply greedy and don't care about you, or, are too busy attempting to survive and get scraps of food on the table to care about what the others think.
unfortunately, that's how the world is.
---
Quote:
The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
ceaon
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.08.15 16:44:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Awesome Possum
"Free" healthcare will cause the same amount of inflation.
this is not trolling, so pumping money on corporation ass dont make inflation ?
i hate this things there is no white or black all is so ****ing grey 
Please resize your signature to the maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist
EvE FTW |
MaxxOmega
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Posted - 2009.08.15 16:45:00 -
[23]
Edited by: MaxxOmega on 15/08/2009 16:46:10
Originally by: Kurfin
Originally by: Awesome Possum
Same reason some Americans are against welfare. I don't want my tax dollars going to help those that can't afford to help themselves.
Public education is free and available for every child in the US. If Joe goes and studies and gets a great job, why should he have to pay for Jim's food stamps and healthcare. Especially when Jim spent his school years getting trashed and not paying attention?
And this is only referring to those educated in public schools, never mind the whole "elitist private school kid" argument.
In the end, its all a matter of "Keep my tax money out of other citizens' pockets."
There are plenty of charities where Joe can donate to help the less fortunate in need, it should be a private matter for his own conscience to decide. It shouldn't be forced from him by his own government at gunpoint.
Are you serious????
What would you say to a mother or father dying of a curable disease, who was unable to afford heathcare? I'm sorry you won't see your children grow up, but I need a bigger TV?
Works for me.
This is exactly one of the problems. Mankinds ability to guilt people into solving other peoples mistakes/problems...
Mom or Dad can't afford kids in the first place. But, what the hell, let's pop out 5 anyway and now OOPS I am in trouble so someone better pay. When people want to buy a car, or a stereo, or a house, they need to have an income and the ability to pay. And those things are stupid inanimate objects. BUT kids, hey pop, pop, pop, as many as they want to with no accountability to anyone but hey after all, it's not the poor childs fault "sniff sniff" now someone better bloody well pay up. But I guess we better pay for Dad's health care cause if he croaks now we have to pay for the kids anyway...
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Orion Eridanus
Dakota HeadHunters
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Posted - 2009.08.15 16:45:00 -
[24]
I agree with Awesome Possum. I worked a **** job, I struggled to make ends meet to have any more money come out of my paycheck to cover other peoples healthcare would have put me out on the streets but unlike them I wouldn't have been able to get any help from anyone because I worked. Meanwhile they would /have been using my money to pay for their welfare to buy big screen tv's and throw large parties every week and this isn't just making that up, my neighbors did it.
Originally by: Paulo Damarr
That is a most Excellent Drake fitting, you are lucky to have survived.
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Kurfin
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Posted - 2009.08.15 16:52:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Awesome Possum
Your final point is crap and you know it. "Free" healthcare will cause the same amount of inflation.
The state should be able to provide the same service for less money as there would be no advertising expenditure or dividends to share holders. And since the state scheme would probably be larger than any existing health insurance provider it would be in a better position to negotiate with the suppliers to secure the heathcare for less too.
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ceaon
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.08.15 16:58:00 -
[26]
Edited by: ceaon on 15/08/2009 17:01:39
Originally by: Orion Eridanus
I agree with Awesome Possum. I worked a **** job, I struggled to make ends meet to have any more money come out of my paycheck to cover other peoples healthcare would have put me out on the streets but unlike them I wouldn't have been able to get any help from anyone because I worked. Meanwhile they would /have been using my money to pay for their welfare to buy big screen tv's and throw large parties every week and this isn't just making that up, my neighbors did it.
like i said this is all grey your are "right" but a basic healthcare increase ppl standard of life and move them away from poverty (even if they dont deserve it for being so ****ing ignorants and spend money on other unimportant things )ofc there are allot of thing that have a influence on ppl standard of life 2 things are sure
1) criminal activity is linked to poverty
2) criminals tend to take money/stuff from other ppl that have money (good quality of life)
Please resize your signature to the maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist
EvE FTW |
Grimpak
Gallente
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2009.08.15 16:59:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Orion Eridanus
I agree with Awesome Possum. I worked a **** job, I struggled to make ends meet to have any more money come out of my paycheck to cover other peoples healthcare would have put me out on the streets but unlike them I wouldn't have been able to get any help from anyone because I worked. Meanwhile they would /have been using my money to pay for their welfare to buy big screen tv's and throw large parties every week and this isn't just making that up, my neighbors did it.
problem with both the extremes of either the US medical care system, compared to any other state with a social wellcare system is that, on one, you get nothing, on the other, you get too much.
basic medical care should be widely available and a right to everyone, in my opinion, but even in social welfare models, private medical insurance systems still work, meaning that there should be a middle ground somewhere.
---
Quote:
The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
MaxxOmega
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Posted - 2009.08.15 17:00:00 -
[28]
Edited by: MaxxOmega on 15/08/2009 17:01:06
Originally by: Kurfin
Originally by: Awesome Possum
Your final point is crap and you know it. "Free" healthcare will cause the same amount of inflation.
The state should be able to provide the same service for less money as there would be no advertising expenditure or dividends to share holders. And since the state scheme would probably be larger than any existing health insurance provider it would be in a better position to negotiate with the suppliers to secure the heathcare for less too.
One problem I can see as a possibility is that the state would have to use private doctors to deliver their state provided health care. So the state would have to do what we do here in Canada. We have fee limits and a doctor can only charge x amount of dollars for a service and can't go above that. But then what happens is that the crummy governments in an attempt to save money, they start to de-list dservices that they paid for in the past. So now, you have a system that is mostly government but partially private. Then people all freak out because "we used to get that for free before", waa, waa, waa. And the doctors get ****ed off because they see their ability to charge what they want has now been stopped...
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Grimpak
Gallente
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2009.08.15 17:03:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Grimpak on 15/08/2009 17:03:52
Originally by: MaxxOmega
Originally by: Kurfin
Originally by: Awesome Possum
Your final point is crap and you know it. "Free" healthcare will cause the same amount of inflation.
The state should be able to provide the same service for less money as there would be no advertising expenditure or dividends to share holders. And since the state scheme would probably be larger than any existing health insurance provider it would be in a better position to negotiate with the suppliers to secure the heathcare for less too.
One problem I can see as a possibility is that the state would have to use private doctors to deliver their state provided health care. So the state would have to do what we do here in Canada. We have fee limits and a doctor can only charge x amount of dollars for a service and can't go above that. But then waht happens is that the crummy governments in an attempt to save money, they start to de-list dservices that they paid for in the past. So now, you have a system that is mostly government but partially private. Then people all freak out because "we used to get that for free before", waa, waa, waa. And the doctors get ****ed off because they see their ability to charge what they want has now been stopped...
or probably state-employed doctors? still, that one also opens another can of worms, that can go either if they get paid below average, in wich case, you can see a drop in quality and quantity, or above average, where you all of the sudden see like half of your country's students wanting to become a well-paid, in a relatively stable work as a state doctor.
---
Quote:
The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Awesome Possum
Insert Obscure Latin Name
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Posted - 2009.08.15 17:07:00 -
[30]
Fact is, all this 'free' healthcare is going to do is keep poor stupid people alive longer, to drain our taxes quicker.
But just like the welfare system; the poor, lazy, and stupid will just milk this for all its worth and be even more comfortable and healthy while sitting on their lazy asses getting fat at the expense of the hard working.
This system would be great, if it were only for people who were in a short rut (myself) and only needed it for a limited amount of time (guess what? There's already 'emergency temporary health insurance' out there).
Its not going to work.
♥
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