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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Deva Blackfire
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.08.21 15:49:00 -
[151]
Originally by: Sade Onyx Edited by: Sade Onyx on 21/08/2009 13:00:33 Just a thought..
Since the human mind would find it nearly impossible to know when EXACTLY 2 seconds have passed, its likely that you would either underestimate or over estimate.
In either case you will most probably be taking closer to 3 or even 4 seconds. Double this up again to consider the angle change your looking at more like 8 seconds per scan.
8 seconds per scan is considerably more than the "only 2 seconds" that it appears to be.
I would sincerely suggest to CCP that this is reduced to 1 second, or half a second. Because in reality, we are not androids, nor do we actually have implants, so in reality you would get your 2 seconds.
wha?
i KNOW im doing it under 2 seconds because when im scanning belts i get this stupid popup message. So seriously stop theories when i can actually see that the popup is reducing my efficiency.
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Sha4d13
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2009.08.21 15:55:00 -
[152]
Originally by: Adunh Slavy If your previous scanner skills were so reliant on not having a two second delay, then I'm afraid I can't have much sympathy. Button spamming is not a skill. Though also, do not like the way the fix has been implemented.
Instead of the pop up message, just use the little clock widget that already exists. I'm sure CCP can even make the clock widget red. Also, changing the degree should not invoke a new scan. Since the goal is to reduce lag/server requests, then overlooking this behavior of degree change invoking a scan is a no brainier duh. As a previous poster pointed out, this is likely part of an Unholy Rage response, those farmers probably kept the scanner on 360 and never changed the degree, so although silly to overlook it, the function call investigation mitigates the oversight, but not by much.
Someone doesnt understand scanning in a pvp context...
You jump in- you scan, you adjust the radius nd / or distance to narrow down the results, and scan again- repeat until you find target. Nothing to do with spamming- takes a good deal of practice and skill to do fast. Now it cant be done fast at all.
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Sophia Truthspeaker
Imperial Shipment
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Posted - 2009.08.21 16:02:00 -
[153]
Wonder what happens if the scanner would scan every second or every other second automatically? you wouldn't have to push the button, it only does it when the directional scanner is active and you probably get a more fluid scanning axperience from it. Will the added resources be that much? _________
The truth is out there |
Sivajini
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Posted - 2009.08.21 16:02:00 -
[154]
Edited by: Sivajini on 21/08/2009 16:06:46 lol yeah that post from onyx is funny
100% theory bla 0% practical
2 second delay really is alot of time and almost f+cks this whole mechanic up completly together with a irritating message in your face
now just like i would suggest the guy with the funny post to go be practical about it and stop theorising i suggest it to you ccp that you try and see what this is about in actual game experience
if you dont have the ability feel yourself into the experience of your own game then that is not very beneficial for your business
surely such things do happen along the way no problem if you do respond
it would be great if maybe there could be had a brainstorming at fanfest about this whole mechanics and some devs maybe would be well go playing the game to try to feel themselfs into it so that when fanfest is due they are prepared to be as one and not out of sync coming with changes like this crippeling scanning for some minor perfomance increase
really ccp
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yieasase
H3ad 4uarter 69
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Posted - 2009.08.21 16:45:00 -
[155]
Nerfing bots and or cluster **** chins was your plan but your doing i worser as before.
It brings you min performance and all bot farmers feel like itz christmas!
Prly fix featured systems and models before you doing it this way.
Btw we have alrdy a random feature for bots, aka omg i gonna reopen my scanner now like this evening 200th times.
Good option is, fix it back to the old "moon-anal" was way better, this one was able to sort distance corectly ;P 3 ways, not only featured 2 ways like this one afther you tried to fix the ****ed one, lasttime.
But hey baby, why not a real scanner?
yea we know you guys nerfed arldy probing. itz now ****in useless for non ***** players.
Itz realy sexeh. Select your target for scanning, selected target is a fixpoint for scanning like belt 1-1, player can choose angle and press scan. with this one you can ignore bugged regions, constellations and systems or just the ****ed grid ones and or the strange mysterious wandering fixpoints from various vessels. no one cares now about ****in 2 seconds. yea ****in simple, yours is lvl lower =P Yeah you get it it is arldy featured. hugs like up to omg i need relog again, gonna emorage delete cache again "lol". reading this message bajjilion times is a real burner. 2nd omg im gonna hammer the the button for like 40 seconds now....
probs for bringing it this way, it will just seed the feeling we wish you all the best for sure ;).
Im sure a solo player would write something like
1. think
2. push
3. talk
start with 1
buy more ****ing hamsters
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Ares Vakan
Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2009.08.21 16:49:00 -
[156]
Originally by: Kaerik 1) It has become harder for people to scan down targets in belts
2) It has become harder for targets in belts to scan down people
Both sides of the equation have taken an equal hit which leaves it all exactly as it was pre-change but with several orders of magnitude less server calls.
Wrong. People trying to avoid PvP have local, and that's all they need. We have local to know someone is at least in system, then we have to use our scanner while all they have to do is warpout once local goes +1.
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Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2009.08.21 16:50:00 -
[157]
Edited by: Haniblecter Teg on 21/08/2009 16:50:23
Originally by: CCP Atlas There is a new 2 second delay in using the directional scanner. This has been done for server performance reasons.
Dumb.
You have ships that can easily achieve 20+ AU/second and you expect us to hit our intended scanning target in once every 2 seconds? That's 40 ****ING AU DEWDS!
Also, how am I supposed to scan out a macroer in 00 if I can only fit 5 scans in 10 seconds?
Stupid 'fix', bring it back. Not everything should be sacraficed on the need for speed alter! ----------------- Friends Forever |
Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2009.08.21 16:53:00 -
[158]
Edited by: Haniblecter Teg on 21/08/2009 16:54:08 Edited by: Haniblecter Teg on 21/08/2009 16:53:44 WHoops, they were talking about the directional.
People should say when they mean IRL 'skills' and ingame, trainable 'skills'. ----------------- Friends Forever |
Minuteman
Gunship Diplomacy Double Dutch Rudders
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Posted - 2009.08.21 17:02:00 -
[159]
This mechanic is rubbish, please change it back CCP.
Minuteman's Comic |
Nexus1972
Pat Sharp's Potato Rodeo Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2009.08.21 17:11:00 -
[160]
Yes this mechanic needs changing.
If its macro scan spammers that are the problem cant ccp just implement some logarithmic scale whereby after each scan the delay is scaled up. So say after each scan add a .05 second delay, and it gets reset after 30-60 seconds of no scanning? That would screw the macroers up who would simply not be able to spam scan but still be workable for scanning pilots/pirates? ---------------------
Pat Sharpe's Potato Rodeo
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Sade Onyx
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Posted - 2009.08.21 17:14:00 -
[161]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
wha?
i KNOW im doing it under 2 seconds because when im scanning belts i get this stupid popup message. So seriously stop theories when i can actually see that the popup is reducing my efficiency.
Well this is my point.
If your getting the message, it means your too early.. but how early were you? 1.9 seconds?.. you wait a moment, how long? so when you hit scan again its definatly going to have been MORE than 2 seconds since your last succesfull scan. How much more? 1 second, 2 seconds?
Ok, lets turn this around...
You successfully scanned, but does this mean you hit scan EXACTLY 2 seconds later, or is it more like 3 seconds or 4 seconds?
All im saying is that for CCP's '2 second delay' payment they are asking from their players (to gain server performance) in reality they are most probably gaining double that.
This would be my argument to CCP for having this delay reduced. Which is more of a reason than most people have posted. Your not going to gain sympathy from CCP with "WTF! Change it"
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Sade Onyx
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Posted - 2009.08.21 17:18:00 -
[162]
Originally by: Sivajini
now just like i would suggest the guy with the funny post to go be practical about it and stop theorising i suggest it to you ccp that you try and see what this is about in actual game experience
Wtf, I am being practical, and Im trying to make a case to reduce the delay. If you press scan and you get the message, the fact is your next succesful scan with DEFAINTLY be MORE than 2seconds... no theory about it.
Im saying that in reality the delay is much longer than 2 seconds, so wtf are you giving me this **** ?
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Krystal Vernet
Minmatar Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2009.08.21 17:21:00 -
[163]
Originally by: Nexus1972 Yes this mechanic needs changing.
If its macro scan spammers that are the problem cant ccp just implement some logarithmic scale whereby after each scan the delay is scaled up. So say after each scan add a .05 second delay, and it gets reset after 30-60 seconds of no scanning? That would screw the macroers up who would simply not be able to spam scan but still be workable for scanning pilots/pirates?
With the way I'm hearing the hunting scanners spamming, that'll hurt them as well.
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Rhaegor Stormborn
H A V O C Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2009.08.21 17:26:00 -
[164]
Posting just to say that the new scanner sucks. CCP failed.
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Capt Fossil
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.08.21 17:27:00 -
[165]
Oh Noes, I may have to train probing skills and then use the scanner.
1. No local in low sec and 0,0
2. Require more skills and equipment to successfully scan a ship target.
I know you instant gratification kids will hate it, but it's my opinion.
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Ice Moon
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Posted - 2009.08.21 17:39:00 -
[166]
Uhm, adapt or die? Like the Caldari carebear mission runners were told to do by the PvP crowd a while ago?
What goes around comes around.
Ice
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Zex Maxwell
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.08.21 18:00:00 -
[167]
G15 keyboard users can set their G keys to spam the button every 2 seconds. its not that bad guys.
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Bidermaier
Amarr Devil's Cast-a-ways
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Posted - 2009.08.21 18:09:00 -
[168]
at least we need a sound sing so we know that the recalibration time has gone, so we avoid the stupid message on screen. And for god sake change it to 1 sec
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Ephemeron
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.08.21 18:20:00 -
[169]
Anyone who says 2 sec scanner is fine has not personally experienced belt scanning.
Initially I didn't mind 2 sec timer either, until I tried belt scanning for farmers in 0.0 This change makes it very annoying and gives even more advantages to the defender - as if local was not enough.
Considering the highly questionable benefits to server performance from this change, the down side to player experience is greater.
And seriously, why do things have to become worse over time? what's up with regression of game design? The natural progress of game design would go along the idea of automatic directional scanner updates, similar to Overview, perhaps even merge Overview with directional scanner data. Instead we have the opposite - things getting more limiting and crude to the users.
Advancing game technology at expense of good game design is wrong.
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Tokov
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Posted - 2009.08.21 18:30:00 -
[170]
This.
Originally by: Ice Moon Uhm, adapt or die? Like the Caldari carebear mission runners were told to do by the PvP crowd a while ago?
What goes around comes around.
Ice
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Foodpimp
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Posted - 2009.08.21 18:37:00 -
[171]
So if I'm reading all this right, this nerf isn't really impacting the honest-to-goodness pvp'er out there....but rather, the gankers. Cuz lets be honest. If you're targeting barges, exhumers and industrials...the last thing you really want if a fight. It's fairly safe and risk free....and it doesn't take a whole lot of skill to do. I'm really indifferent to the whole thing myself. If I got blowed up in belt, it was cuz of my own stupidity or not paying attention, not because of the awesome "PVP" skills of my assailant. I won't get mad at gankers for blowing me up if they don't get mad when I get away.
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Qwyp
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Posted - 2009.08.21 18:51:00 -
[172]
I love the change, anything that helps me get away just in time is a plus... :)
QQ more
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Obsidian Hawk
RONA Corporation
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Posted - 2009.08.21 18:52:00 -
[173]
ooo oo oooo FLAME FLAME FLAME
CRY CRY CRY!!
Seriously guys, you knew this was coming 3 weeks in advance, many of your alliances are active on the test server to get up to date information. You had enough time to prep for the change. So suck it up and stop complaining. Besides all the smart people who frequent low sec for ratting and missions already carry cloaks on them and warp and cloak when they see hostiles come in anyway.
/me does us the scanner, but only to see what ships are around before deciding what action to take. --------------------------
WTB a sig, or moderation of my sig by all the hot CCP girls. |
Xaen
Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.08.21 18:57:00 -
[174]
Originally by: Ephemeron I don't mind the 2 sec refresh rate on scanner. But having a window pop up with notification message is a very bad design decision
Are you ****ing kidding me?
Originally by: Ephemeron forcing a pop up window message is completely unacceptable.
That's an understatement.
Originally by: Ephemeron Seriously, why do we even have to talk about this? this should be obvious no-brainer for anyone into games.
Seriously...
Don't make me bust out the colors to draw attention to this UI atrocity! Er... - Support fixing the UI|Suggest Jita fixes|Compact logs |
Feilamya
Pelennor Swarm THE KLINGONS
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Posted - 2009.08.21 18:59:00 -
[175]
Originally by: Zex Maxwell G15 keyboard users can set their G keys to spam the button every 2 seconds. its not that bad guys.
I know I suggested this earlier, but only automatic scanning is NOT a solution.
1) In some situations, you want your scan result to be 100% up-to-date all the time.
2) In other situations, you want to keep an old scan result, for example when giving intel to your friends.
I'm saying this because CCP might actually go ahead and implement a forced 2 second automatic updating scanner, which would be even worse than what we have now.
If you look at those 2 situations above and think a bit, you will realize the following:
- In situation 1 you are not spamming the scan button. You are hitting it once for one scan result.
- In situation 2, you will get the same or almost the same scan result every time you hit the scan button. In some situations, for example when an entire fleet begins to warp off a gate, or when you are in warp will you see a lot of change for a short time. But most of the time, you and most things you can scan are standing still
This means that situation 2 allows for A LOT of optimization. For example, the server could send the client only information about changes of the scan result (such as: Object left scan range/angle, new object in scan range/angle, distance of object has changed).
Since only the server knows when such changes occur, this can only work with an automatically updating scanner. We have already established that this is not always what the player wants (in situation 1). So we what do we do?
Extend the scanning user interface to allow the player to tell the server what he really wants, without spamming a button (and network requests)!
This can be done by adding only one button to the interface, so we would have the following two buttons:
- Auto Scan: Puts the scanner in "auto scan" mode for, let's say, 10 seconds (if you don't like it, make it 20 seconds or even 60 seconds!). The server responds by sending a complete update of the scan result, and then only relative updates only when something changes, for the next 10 seconds. If the angle or radius of the scanner is changed while auto scan is active, the timer is automatically reset.
(Why the timeout of 10 seconds? Because the alternative would be an on/off switch. Good luck trying to explain to the players that they have to switch the scanner off again to reduce server load. They won't do it. So instead have them press the button again)
- Single Scan: The server responds by a complete update of the scan result. Only works every 2 seconds. If this button is pressed while Auto Scan is active, then Auto Scan is turned off, and the current scan result is frozen.
Of course, the user interface should indicate when auto scan is active or not, so the player knows when to press the scan button again. Bonus points if the next auto scan can be "queued" (like auto-repeat for mods)
Let's see how this would work for us:
- If you are in warp, use auto scan
- If you are narrowing down a scan to locate a target, use auto scan
- If you need to give intel about a hostile fleet, or have a closer look at a scan result, press the "single scan" button to get a result and freeze it
- If you need to keep a permanent eye on the scanner, use auto scan and press the button again every 10 seconds (not 100% automatic, but not the button mashing you had before)
How would this work for the server?
- Full scan results are sent no more frequent than every 2 seconds to each player (and CCP are happy with this)
- If a player needs high frequency updates of the scanner, the server doesn't have to send a full update to the client every 2 seconds or whenever the player presses the button. Instead, the server only sends relative updates while the player is interested, and no updates at all if nothing changes. Saves a ton of performance!
Now hire some real programmers and get it done!
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Foodpimp
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Posted - 2009.08.21 19:02:00 -
[176]
Originally by: Xaen
Originally by: Ephemeron I don't mind the 2 sec refresh rate on scanner. But having a window pop up with notification message is a very bad design decision
Are you ****ing kidding me?
Originally by: Ephemeron forcing a pop up window message is completely unacceptable.
That's an understatement.
Originally by: Ephemeron Seriously, why do we even have to talk about this? this should be obvious no-brainer for anyone into games.
Seriously...
Don't make me bust out the colors to draw attention to this UI atrocity! Er...
Ok...take it easy there Special Ed. Eat a popsicle and sit in your bouncy-chair while the adults decide what to do. Would you like me to read the "Velvetene Rabbit" to you?
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Sivajini
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Posted - 2009.08.21 19:19:00 -
[177]
Originally by: Sade Onyx
Originally by: Sivajini
now just like i would suggest the guy with the funny post to go be practical about it and stop theorising i suggest it to you ccp that you try and see what this is about in actual game experience
Wtf, I am being practical, and Im trying to make a case to reduce the delay. If you press scan and you get the message, the fact is your next succesful scan with DEFAINTLY be MORE than 2seconds... no theory about it.
Im saying that in reality the delay is much longer than 2 seconds, so wtf are you giving me this **** ?
relax -guess i must have misred you there and please dont take it to personal
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Hiroshima Jita
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Posted - 2009.08.21 19:20:00 -
[178]
Pop up message in the middle of the screen because I spam the scan button on reflex s ****. 2 seconds isn't the end of the world. It sucks a little bit. And I'm pretty sure when I jump into system looking for ratters and I'm near some belts I would scan considerably more than once every 2 seconds trying to find them before they go hide from the new local.
In some idea situations it would only take me 10-20 secs to find the belt and warp to it. Meaning with a short warp I'm on top of them withing 30-50s of entering system. And they still have plenty of time to realize new local and get clear. With a 2 s minimum assuming I use each scan conservatively, I think I can say that the same thing might take me a minute and a half. As a nerf it seems arbitrary and uneccesary. If you're smart you can generally get out before my 30s uberness lands me on top off you. 5s realize new local 10s warp to ss = 15s. I physically can't get there in 15s because of warp duration. If you're stupid you'll hang out for minutes oblivious right up until your life sucks.
Fine. I'm not too worried because ratters aren't my bread and butter these days anyways. BUT CAN WE GET THE ****ING MESSAGE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE SCREEN TO GO AWAY? Preferably to the dark recesses of the in game log. And I'd like a LITTLE SPINNY THING like with the session change timer next to my scan button so I know when I can scan again.
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Bidermaier
Amarr Devil's Cast-a-ways
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Posted - 2009.08.21 19:25:00 -
[179]
I have been thinking. If local was anonymous... the scaner button would be bashed by farmers like in Hypersports. So... maybe CCP has decided to make Local anonymous and this is some kind of prenerf???
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Hoo Is
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Posted - 2009.08.21 19:25:00 -
[180]
Hooray... next patch make it 20 secs ---- a reply which adds nothing to a thread or results in a thread being bumped with no new discussion worthy content is considered spam and as such warrants a forum ban |
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