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Carniflex
Caldari
Fallout Research
Fallout Project
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Posted - 2009.08.22 08:26:00 -
[1]
I am fully supporting idea to remove T2 BPO's from game. Failing that and if they really are 'harmless' then they should be seeded on open market so everyone who want's can get one without having to rely another players will to sell em one.
They are not unique in the same way as state raven or federal megatohorn so there is no reason to not make them available for public if they are so harmless and unprofitable as T2 BPO owners like to state.
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Carniflex
Caldari
Fallout Research
Fallout Project
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Posted - 2009.08.22 16:16:00 -
[2]
 Originally by: Venkul Mul
Most things are harmless in a limited quantity and would harm people in large quantity, from food to medicinals.
For manufactures adding T2 BPO to the market would be harmless, you buy them when you have enough isk.
For T2 BPO owners would be a further devaluation, but the original item will still be in theirs hands, so it would be a "bad market judgment" kind of thing.
For inventors it would mean losing the control of the section for the market that they now control. So it would be harmful for invention.
Seeding more BPO would hurt mostly inventors.
The only way to make that kind of change "fair" for inventors would be to add "inventable" items to the game every few months and seeding the correspondent T2 BPO only after a year or so.
To be honest I just kinda dislike T2 BPO's. They just rub off against me wrong way. Kinda emotional thing as I did put considerable effort into lottery and got zero. Not even some crappy ammo one. Their exsitense just irritates me.
From rational standpoint if one does the numbers they are not the end of the world nor the isk printing machine they used to be. So my first preference is getting rid of em alltogehter and keeping only invention as way to make T2 stuff. True, some T2 prices would rise a bit but that in turn would allow CCP to play around with possibilities of increasing ME levels of BPC's.
Secondary option of getting them within in game mechnaiks - just plain old market seeding might not be the best idea as that would create shockwaves in invention and R&D markets and I kinda dislike artifical shock also. So better option would be if the speed at what they enter game is somewhat limited. So propably LP stores of R&D corps or buying them with RP points or whatever. Stuff that takes some effort/time to get. As long as everybody has option to do it and get em if they put in the effort. It's not quite the same as grinding just isk and buying from some other pilot one of exsiting ones as their prices are artifically inflated by the current T2 BPO's being also status symbol.
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Carniflex
Caldari
Fallout Research
Fallout Project
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Posted - 2009.08.22 19:32:00 -
[3]
Your suggestion for the way to add T2 BPO's is reasonable. I actually expected something like that before current invention was implemented. Ie something that takes effort, time and resources and not possible to solve by throwing only isk at the problem.
Then again I also expected origin BPC ME/PE levels to affect the resulting T2 BPC ME/PE levels. I probably would not be as militant about those prints if it would (invention would still be at slight disadvantage as it needs cores and is propability based). It sure sounded like that when invention was in planning phases but well ... it's not there. Not yet. Nothing unreasonable ofc. Say 1.5 times more ME research on T1 would result 1 'tick' on T2 BPC or something like that. For example if 1 ME tick would take 1 mnth on T2 BPO doing 1.5 months of ME on T1 BPO and using those copies for invention would cause your T2 BPC have 1 better ME.
The latest devblog numbers did surprise be a bit. I actually expected invention produced stuff to have bigger market share. In the end ofc it's all limited by available moon minerals and dyspo moons are the new Hulk BPO's.
The amount of isk few reasonable quality consellations out in 0.0 can create is staggering. In the ballpark of 70 bil per month (minus POS fuel). Pure profit line is ofc lower as territorial warfare is kinda expensive hobby. Especially if someone actually comes and tries to take those moons form you.
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Carniflex
Caldari
Fallout Research
Fallout Project
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Posted - 2009.08.23 08:22:00 -
[4]
EVE is quite good approximation to real markets and it has similar problem as "real" markets. Most textbooks and mainstream economic theories assume that economy is static and in equilibrium (note however that I'm nub in economicks) ie there is some supply curve and demand curve and where they meet the current price will sit. However - if you look at real EVE markets or real world markets it's not that simplistic. Real EVE market is dynamic and at best it's sitting in some moderately unstable local attractor in it's phase space (using physicks terms). Plus there are speculators that are kinda additional variable in the "equations" you are trying to control and predict.
EVE is not a linear game and thus small changes in "initial conditions" can lead to large changes. Effect of getting rid of T2 BPO's or making them available to general public would be bigger than just increasing price of some currently-not-profitable-to-invent products. For a start moon minerals would see in either case see some changes, that in turn would have some effect on 0.0 sov warfare etcetc. In my opinion the effect would make EVE better (but it's just an opinion in my part) by increasing demand for said moon minerals in either case and thus generating more conflict out there in 0.0.
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Carniflex
Caldari
Fallout Research
Fallout Project
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Posted - 2009.08.24 06:27:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Kara Mitsui
I believe, but I'm not sure, that the tension between T2 BPO holders and T2 inventors is good for keeping a balance in the market.
But overall, I just think it's good for the game to have variation in manufacturing processes. The real world isn't a perfectly level playing field, we don't all get an equal chance to succeed.
While "fairness" is often mentioned in those discussion I don't think it's about fairness. EVE is not designed to be entirely fair game. However - inability to get T2 BPO is somewhat immersion breaking for some people. If this would be "real" world you would have illegal T2 production from illegal T2 BPO's in 0.0 space where CONCORD nor empires can enforce their rules. T2 BPO's are kinda like copyright stuff - megacorps sold X numbers of licenes to pod pilots and so it is. What's irritating that you can't really break those even in lawless places where "police" can't get ya. There is no unbreakable security systems.
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Carniflex
Caldari
Fallout Research
Fallout Project
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Posted - 2009.08.24 11:12:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Carniflex
Originally by: Kara Mitsui
I believe, but I'm not sure, that the tension between T2 BPO holders and T2 inventors is good for keeping a balance in the market.
But overall, I just think it's good for the game to have variation in manufacturing processes. The real world isn't a perfectly level playing field, we don't all get an equal chance to succeed.
While "fairness" is often mentioned in those discussion I don't think it's about fairness. EVE is not designed to be entirely fair game. However - inability to get T2 BPO is somewhat immersion breaking for some people. If this would be "real" world you would have illegal T2 production from illegal T2 BPO's in 0.0 space where CONCORD nor empires can enforce their rules. T2 BPO's are kinda like copyright stuff - megacorps sold X numbers of licenes to pod pilots and so it is. What's irritating that you can't really break those even in lawless places where "police" can't get ya. There is no unbreakable security systems.
But there are plenty in EvE. Even the Guristas will respect the security of my hangar in H-PA...
We can only assume that they do not want to get in there in first place. Afterall they allow anyone to dock with their stations also. So they probably leave your personal hangars alone regardless of mutch they don't like you as if they would 'break in' into one station vault all the pod pilots would leave their station and well .. plus perhaps would kindly remove it from space on top of that if we go that route.
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Carniflex
Caldari
Fallout Research
Fallout Project
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Posted - 2009.08.25 11:55:00 -
[7]
I have to agree with Malcanis on this one. Considering the ultralong times to cover even the initial investment the risk of using T2 BPO as investment (as opposed to collectable status symbol) is unreasonably high.
If something happens that nukes the profitability of that particular T2 item it might also be impossible to sell your T2 BPO for the price you had to pay for it. Considering that most of them have to be in production for 3 to 5 years to turn profit it is silly to expect so long stability in any T2 item. It's ofc possible to speculate with them, ie buy some T2 BPO and hope that something happens that makes it's price go up and cross your fingers that nothing happens that makes it's price go even lower. But that is very high risk speculation, as one of the possibilities is they might modified one day or the invoention might be boosted somehow to the levels where it can be even more competitive with them (for example if initial BPC ME levels would start modulating end result ME levels).
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Carniflex
Caldari
Fallout Research
Fallout Project
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Posted - 2009.09.01 20:58:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Cadde
Looking at it from my perspective... (Which is not what i do all the time)
I feel it is easier for me to build an empire to strike down on the moongoo alliance(s) and take their resources than it is to obtain the ultra rare T2 BPO that has a profit margin of 100 mil per produced item.
Not that i think it would be easy at all to overrun a moongoo alliance since they probably have everything and i started with nothing, but with enough hard work it CAN be done. Alliances can be infiltrated, others can be turned against them, brute force with the element of surprise can be employed.
But no matter what i do (barring hacking the BPO owners account) will get me that BPO.
The feeling I get when you learn that T2 BPO's aren't seeded anymore but still exist in the game is that of pure disgust of the whole thing.
It's easy to say i should have joined eve back in 2003, now i didn't do that but i still wanna be able to do the same things as everybody else... SOME DAY. [\quote]
I think this one expresses my opinion on T2 BPO's in clearer terms than my own ramblings about them. They just rub me in a wrong way. They will do that even if I do not invent by just being out there.
It is unfortunate that some people have invested a huge amounts of isk in them, but that's the risk they took with those investments seeing as in 5 years they would need to produce off them to 'break even' EVE would have 10 major expansions. That is like from 2003 to today.
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Carniflex
Caldari
Fallout Research
Fallout Project
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Posted - 2009.09.01 20:59:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Cadde
Looking at it from my perspective... (Which is not what i do all the time)
I feel it is easier for me to build an empire to strike down on the moongoo alliance(s) and take their resources than it is to obtain the ultra rare T2 BPO that has a profit margin of 100 mil per produced item.
Not that i think it would be easy at all to overrun a moongoo alliance since they probably have everything and i started with nothing, but with enough hard work it CAN be done. Alliances can be infiltrated, others can be turned against them, brute force with the element of surprise can be employed.
But no matter what i do (barring hacking the BPO owners account) will get me that BPO.
The feeling I get when you learn that T2 BPO's aren't seeded anymore but still exist in the game is that of pure disgust of the whole thing.
It's easy to say i should have joined eve back in 2003, now i didn't do that but i still wanna be able to do the same things as everybody else... SOME DAY.
I think this one expresses my opinion on T2 BPO's in clearer terms than my own ramblings about them. They just rub me in a wrong way. They will do that even if I do not invent by just being out there.
It is unfortunate that some people have invested a huge amounts of isk in them, but that's the risk they took with those investments seeing as in 5 years they would need to produce off them to 'break even' EVE would have 10 major expansions. That is like from 2003 to today.
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