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56% of all T2 ships were produced from BPOs

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sitar seaton	Posted - 2009.08.20 23:35:00 - [1] Time to remove t2 bpos.
Estel Arador Minmatar Estel Arador Corp Services	Posted - 2009.08.20 23:41:00 - [2] While we're at it, anyone who built up any wealth using mechanics which have since changed should have their assets stripped. FREE jumpclone service: Thread\|Podlog
ingenting 20th Legion Sodalitas XX	Posted - 2009.08.20 23:53:00 - [3] o'rly? _________________ Originally by: CCP Pann I think we've explored every option just shy of sending out ninja squads with bazookas. http://20thlegion.net
waferzankko Caldari The Maverick Navy Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.08.21 01:04:00 - [4] where the stats from?
sitar seaton	Posted - 2009.08.21 04:48:00 - [5] stats are from the QEN: On page 41 is states that 56% of all T2 ships were produced from BPOs and on page 44 it states that 32% of all modules were built from BPOs.
Kitchie Gallente Vikramaditya	Posted - 2009.08.21 05:15:00 - [6] Edited by: Kitchie on 21/08/2009 05:15:55 Originally by: sitar seaton Time to remove t2 bpos. Why is that a problem? If you've spent billions buying a T2 BPO that will take 3 years to pay for itself, you might feel a bit miffed if they were pulled. From your post it seems that: You can't afford to buy a T2 BPO yourself You want to make more money inventing T2 ships at the expense of existing BPO owners. Dream on....
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.08.21 10:19:00 - [7] Quote: Why is that a problem? If you've spent billions buying a T2 BPO that will take 3 years to pay for itself, you might feel a bit miffed if they were pulled While I have no problem about T2 BPOs (don't even affect me at all), I have to say that this is not a good "excuse". Why should anyone - beginning with CCP - care that you spent 100B on a speculation? If so, I want my 100M I lost speculating on MSE II rising price back. Same fallacious reasonment, same "none else care". - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.08.21 11:39:00 - [8] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Quote: Why is that a problem? If you've spent billions buying a T2 BPO that will take 3 years to pay for itself, you might feel a bit miffed if they were pulled While I have no problem about T2 BPOs (don't even affect me at all), I have to say that this is not a good "excuse". Why should anyone - beginning with CCP - care that you spent 100B on a speculation? If so, I want my 100M I lost speculating on MSE II rising price back. Same fallacious reasonment, same "none else care". Your MSE II were removed from the game? If not, what is the similitude?
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.08.21 11:50:00 - [9] Quote: Your MSE II were removed from the game? If not, what is the similitude? This was a response to the poster talking about "BPOs are such a big investment => it's unfair if anything happens to them". The similitude is: I speculated MSE II would rise, they did not and suddenly I found myself with some hundreds of "meh" modules to dispose off somehow (I have been lucky though, I found a secondary hub where I still sold them high enough not to lose). In the same way, if I speculate on a BPO today, there's nothing that has to guarantee that it has to be profitable, ever. CCP could nerf it tomorrow and the game is not suddenly unfair, it's just a risky speculation gone bad. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Kitchie Gallente Vikramaditya	Posted - 2009.08.21 12:15:00 - [10] I take it that you have an issue with T2 BPOs as well VV? I don't own any, I don't think the return on investment is worth it but I don't have a problem with their existence. And no matter what you say, I still reckon that anyone who bought one and then have them pulled from the game would feel miffed. A drop in value on an investment is a bad call by the investor; CCP pulling an item from the game has no bearing on the market savvy of the investor but is an arbitrary and unpredictable decision by the devs. Personally, I think those are different issues.

Loney CyberDyne R-D	Posted - 2009.08.21 12:21:00 - [11] Originally by: sitar seaton Time to remove $tupid posters from the forums. *fixed .. Check out our Lottery and Store!
Cute Cuddles	Posted - 2009.08.21 12:24:00 - [12] I love how time and time again people forget that when you've had what you want out of a BPO, you can always sell it to get your initial investment back. You don't "lose" the money you spent. Those who've never owned one make themselves so obvious.
ingenting 20th Legion Sodalitas XX	Posted - 2009.08.21 13:02:00 - [13] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Quote: Your MSE II were removed from the game? If not, what is the similitude? This was a response to the poster talking about "BPOs are such a big investment => it's unfair if anything happens to them". The similitude is: I speculated MSE II would rise, they did not and suddenly I found myself with some hundreds of "meh" modules to dispose off somehow (I have been lucky though, I found a secondary hub where I still sold them high enough not to lose). In the same way, if I speculate on a BPO today, there's nothing that has to guarantee that it has to be profitable, ever. CCP could nerf it tomorrow and the game is not suddenly unfair, it's just a risky speculation gone bad. I have to agree with this, same with any nerf/buff, its a gamble _________________ Originally by: CCP Pann I think we've explored every option just shy of sending out ninja squads with bazookas. http://20thlegion.net
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.08.21 13:13:00 - [14] Quote: I take it that you have an issue with T2 BPOs as well VV? Why should I? I joined EvE too late (sadly, was busy with other MMOs before 2009) to ever be relevant in anything, so I am in peace with whatever happens. What I can see, is odd and imho flawed remnants of a distant past interfering with the game progress of today. What if one day CCP read their own reports (!) and decide to somehow kill T2 BPOs as late but as strong as they did when they closed the POS exploit? The exploit unlike the T2 BPOs was against the EULA but the consequences were what made CCP react. They suddenly realize that they vastly undervaluated the effects of T2 BPOs so late in the game. I mean, I think everyone even BPO owners thought to impact maybe for 5% of the production, when this report shows different. Quote: I love how time and time again people forget that when you've had what you want out of a BPO, you can always sell it to get your initial investment back. You don't "lose" the money you spent. Those who've never owned one make themselves so obvious Apparently you can buy a 100B BPO, make say 10B in Hulks margins with it, resell and consider you gained 10B. False. You immobilized those 100B possibly for years, when many other investments would have earned as much or more than 10B without such an hefty capital lockdown. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Gabriel Rosencrantz	Posted - 2009.08.21 13:56:00 - [15] Edited by: Gabriel Rosencrantz on 21/08/2009 14:11:01 As to costs and returns on investment, you buy the BPO, manufacture to your heart's content, and then sell it if you need the capital back. And BECAUSE you can sell it back, your profits are HUGE. Why? Because you didn't have to spend any ISK on invention. You cut out an entire process, which saves you time and money. And because you can sell it back, you essentially paid nothing for the time you controlled the BPO. If you can't see how that is a huge problem with an unbalanced game mechanic, you aren't doing the math. edit for grammar
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.08.21 14:17:00 - [16] *facepalm
Aria Gallaine	Posted - 2009.08.21 14:21:00 - [17] Edited by: Aria Gallaine on 21/08/2009 14:21:03 Originally by: Gabriel Rosencrantz Edited by: Gabriel Rosencrantz on 21/08/2009 14:11:01 As to costs and returns on investment, you buy the BPO, manufacture to your heart's content, and then sell it if you need the capital back. And BECAUSE you can sell it back, your profits are HUGE. Why? Because you didn't have to spend any ISK on invention. You cut out an entire process, which saves you time and money. And because you can sell it back, you essentially paid nothing for the time you controlled the BPO. If you can't see how that is a huge problem with an unbalanced game mechanic, you aren't doing the math. edit for grammar Those words, "return on investment", you should think about what they mean before using them. See, the price of the BPO is an investment, and you need to make a good return on it per time in which you have it. Otherwise (if you're being economically efficient) you could get more profit by using the money in some other venture. Being able to liquidate it when you no longer want it doesn't change this.
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.08.21 14:22:00 - [18] Originally by: sitar seaton Time to remove t2 bpos. Are you under the impression that if T2 BPOs are removed, profit margins on invention will increase?
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.08.21 14:39:00 - [19] Originally by: Gabriel Rosencrantz Edited by: Gabriel Rosencrantz on 21/08/2009 14:11:01 As to costs and returns on investment, you buy the BPO, manufacture to your heart's content, and then sell it if you need the capital back. And BECAUSE you can sell it back, your profits are HUGE. Why? Because you didn't have to spend any ISK on invention. You cut out an entire process, which saves you time and money. And because you can sell it back, you essentially paid nothing for the time you controlled the BPO. If you can't see how that is a huge problem with an unbalanced game mechanic, you aren't doing the math. edit for grammar Kinda like a house right? I buy one, get to live in it, and then always sell it for more than I paid. Worst case scenario I sell it for how much i paid and get all my capital back. I don't know why any of you suckers rent.
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.08.21 14:51:00 - [20] Originally by: Kalrand Kinda like a house right? I buy one, get to live in it, and then always sell it for more than I paid. Worst case scenario I sell it for how much i paid and get all my capital back. I don't know why any of you suckers rent. And they say you Goons have no sense of humor

Aria Gallaine	Posted - 2009.08.21 15:00:00 - [21] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: sitar seaton Time to remove t2 bpos. Are you under the impression that if T2 BPOs are removed, profit margins on invention will increase? Naive market economics seems to say they certainly will (when you eliminate the lowest marginal cost, non-inventing producers), and probably by an appreciable margin in some areas given the title statistic. Is there some reason that they won't? The common argument I've seen is that BPOs produce a small enough market share not to matter much for the overall price, but clearly that's not true across all markets.
Lubomir Penev Dark Nexxus	Posted - 2009.08.21 15:37:00 - [22] Originally by: Kitchie Edited by: Kitchie on 21/08/2009 05:15:55 Originally by: sitar seaton Time to remove t2 bpos. Why is that a problem? If you've spent billions buying a T2 BPO that will take 3 years to pay for itself, you might feel a bit miffed if they were pulled. So are people that found themselves with a huge stock of now unsaleable probes. If the whole game best interest is to change a game mechanic it will be done. Even at the cost of some emo rage quit. -- 081014 : emoragequit, char transfered to a friend, 090317 : back to original owner blog
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.08.21 16:37:00 - [23] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Quote: Your MSE II were removed from the game? If not, what is the similitude? This was a response to the poster talking about "BPOs are such a big investment => it's unfair if anything happens to them". The similitude is: I speculated MSE II would rise, they did not and suddenly I found myself with some hundreds of "meh" modules to dispose off somehow (I have been lucky though, I found a secondary hub where I still sold them high enough not to lose). In the same way, if I speculate on a BPO today, there's nothing that has to guarantee that it has to be profitable, ever. CCP could nerf it tomorrow and the game is not suddenly unfair, it's just a risky speculation gone bad. Vaerah, stop playing stupid, the request was "remove them", not "change them" so that poster was perfectly right and your example wrong. You tried a speculation and it went wrong but your modules weren't removed, simply the return was different from your prevision. to repeat, the request is "remove the T2 BPO". That is not a wrong investment, it is a asset destroyed by an act of god. It is the difference between the carrier cargo bays being reduced and a fuel bay being implemented and removing all the carriers.
Daeva Vios New Eden Credit Bureau	Posted - 2009.08.21 16:37:00 - [24] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Stuff Despite your claims to the contrary, the content and general tone of your previous posts on the subject indicate that you do in fact have a problem with T2 BPOs. I really don't see what the big problem with BPOs is. If I am holding on to an item I can produced that isn't profitable because the competition is pushing prices too low, I find a different, more profitable item to exploit until it, too, becomes unprofitable. This is the same situation. In any event, the problem (if there is one, and enough folks are whining that I will concede the possibility) isn't the BPO holders where ships are concerned. The problem lies in the abysmal success rate of invention on ships. Combined with the amount of isk you have to invest in the process, it makes inventing ships too much of a hassle for many people. Even so, as has been said, there are many markets where you can produce T2 ships and sell them at a high enough margin to make it worth your while. The BPO holders are either sitting in the main hubs or out in 0.0. This is a big game, it doesn't just consist of Jita. Instead of ruining a profitable market niche for people who did nothing to you, learn to locate and exploit what would ultimately be a superior market. And while you're at it, submit a request to improve success rate on ship invention. ------------------------------------- NECB
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.08.21 16:42:00 - [25] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Quote: I take it that you have an issue with T2 BPOs as well VV? Why should I? I joined EvE too late (sadly, was busy with other MMOs before 2009) to ever be relevant in anything, so I am in peace with whatever happens. What I can see, is odd and imho flawed remnants of a distant past interfering with the game progress of today. What if one day CCP read their own reports (!) and decide to somehow kill T2 BPOs as late but as strong as they did when they closed the POS exploit? The exploit unlike the T2 BPOs was against the EULA but the consequences were what made CCP react. They suddenly realize that they vastly undervaluated the effects of T2 BPOs so late in the game. I mean, I think everyone even BPO owners thought to impact maybe for 5% of the production, when this report shows different. So you now paragon removing a exploit to removing a item gained through regular game mechanics? Noo, you don't have problems with T2 BPO.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.08.21 16:49:00 - [26] Originally by: Lubomir Penev Originally by: Kitchie Edited by: Kitchie on 21/08/2009 05:15:55 Originally by: sitar seaton Time to remove t2 bpos. Why is that a problem? If you've spent billions buying a T2 BPO that will take 3 years to pay for itself, you might feel a bit miffed if they were pulled. So are people that found themselves with a huge stock of now unsaleable probes. If the whole game best interest is to change a game mechanic it will be done. Even at the cost of some emo rage quit. But the probes are still there. You can recycle them, sell them, use them, right? They haven't disappeared from your hangar. So again where is the similitude? if you are unbiased the change from the old to the new probes is equivalent to the introduction of invention for the T2 BPO. Before the good BPO had a staggering return (hulks at 500+ millions), after they have a good return (hulk at 100+ millions). The gain for the BPO owner has been reduced from 430+ millions to 30 or so, that is a 93% reduction in the BPO owner gains. Not bad as a nerf, don't you think?
Trebor DeCaldar Caldari	Posted - 2009.08.21 16:55:00 - [27] I got screwed with the Rigs, I have stack of 'LARGE' BPO's that are researched and are useless now because no one uses them on BS's.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.08.21 16:56:00 - [28] Quote: Vaerah, stop playing stupid, the request was "remove them", not "change them" so that poster was perfectly right and your example wrong. And you stop doing what you do in every single forum and with everyone (that is put words in other people's mouth to suit your opinion), beginning with this one, where I replied to a specific post (#3) and NOT to the OP nor I associate with the OP. Quote: Despite your claims to the contrary, the content and general tone of your previous posts on the subject indicate that you do in fact have a problem with T2 BPOs. I really don't see what the big problem with BPOs is I don't have a single problem with BPOs. I just observe as 3rd party who is a IRL developer and have beta tested other MMOs, how this mechanic is really weird and am surprised it's still maintained and alive. In every other MMO I played it'd be slowly (or quickly and harshly) migrated in order to avoid the situation completely: in fact if CCP acted the day of release, no one would be able to claim how they invested 100B hence it's unfair to alter the game. Some would have e-rage quitted and that's it. Now the thing pervaded the whole game and economy. In fact notice how CCP smarted up and a similar situation (probes) was handled in a very direct and quick "we don't care and you get this" way. That is, purge the wound before it gets infected. Now, if you want to do like Venkul and invent me having personal issues go on, I only witness to an emo tragedy caused by lack of developer balls when the time was right, nothing less, nothing more. Quote: So you now paragon removing a exploit to removing a item gained through regular game mechanics? "The exploit unlike the T2 BPOs was against the EULA" As I said quit putting your blinders on what other people say. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.08.21 16:59:00 - [29] Quote: But the probes are still there. You can recycle them, sell them, use them, right? They haven't disappeared from your hangar And? I am not the OP and can't care the less of the BPOs being removed. I don't care neither: - IF they even fix the situation - HOW they fix the situation. - Wether they remove or alter or copy or bless the BPOs. I am just academically talking comparing EvE to how other games would do. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.08.21 17:06:00 - [30] Originally by: Aria Gallaine Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: sitar seaton Time to remove t2 bpos. Are you under the impression that if T2 BPOs are removed, profit margins on invention will increase? Naive market economics seems to say they certainly will (when you eliminate the lowest marginal cost, non-inventing producers), and probably by an appreciable margin in some areas given the title statistic. Is there some reason that they won't? The common argument I've seen is that BPOs produce a small enough market share not to matter much for the overall price, but clearly that's not true across all markets. 2 reasons: Production and competition. Buyers will buy from the lowest sell order. Invention production of BPC has very high maximum ceiling to the number of BPC produced (number of moon where you can anchor a lab POS and number of characters in play, datacores are a resource that adapt to the number of players doing R&D). So there will not be a shortage in BPC production. At some point there will be a shortage in moon minerals production but that will impact moon owners margins, not inventor margins. So the inventor will be competing with other inventors to sell his product and, like it happen for the T1 ship market, they will cut the profit to the minimum level. The only field where this will not be totally true will be the modules that today are totally produced by BPO because the item has a small market. If there is enough interest for the item the price will rise to the point of making them worthwhile to invent with exactly the same margin of the other low sale invented items. If the market can be covered by some named item dropped by NPC and the only advantage of T2 was a lower production cost from a BPO, the T2 item will disappear from the market. So profit margin will not change. Some marginal item will become rewarding for invention at low margins, a lot will simply disappear as there will be better options at a price comparable with invention.



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