Originally by: CCP Pann

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I think we've explored every option just shy of sending out ninja squads with bazookas.

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Originally by: sitar seaton

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Time to remove t2 bpos.

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1. You can't afford to buy a T2 BPO yourself
2. You want to make more money inventing T2 ships at the expense of existing BPO owners.

Quote:

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Why is that a problem? If you've spent billions buying a T2 BPO that will take 3 years to pay for itself, you might feel a bit miffed if they were pulled

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Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha

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Quote:

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Why is that a problem? If you've spent billions buying a T2 BPO that will take 3 years to pay for itself, you might feel a bit miffed if they were pulled

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While I have no problem about T2 BPOs (don't even affect me at all), I have to say that this is not a good "excuse".

Why should anyone - beginning with CCP - care that you spent 100B on a speculation? If so, I want my 100M I lost speculating on MSE II rising price back. Same fallacious reasonment, same "none else care".

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Quote:

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Your MSE II were removed from the game?

If not, what is the similitude?

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Originally by: sitar seaton

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Time to remove $tupid posters from the forums.

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Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha

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Quote:

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Your MSE II were removed from the game?

If not, what is the similitude?

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This was a response to the poster talking about "BPOs are such a big investment => it's unfair if anything happens to them".

The similitude is: I speculated MSE II would rise, they did not and suddenly I found myself with some hundreds of "meh" modules to dispose off somehow (I have been lucky though, I found a secondary hub where I still sold them high enough not to lose).

In the same way, if I speculate on a BPO *today*, there's nothing that has to guarantee that it has to be profitable, ever. CCP could nerf it tomorrow and the game is not suddenly unfair, it's just a risky speculation gone bad.

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Originally by: CCP Pann

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I think we've explored every option just shy of sending out ninja squads with bazookas.

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Quote:

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I take it that you have an issue with T2 BPOs as well VV?

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Quote:

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I love how time and time again people forget that when you've had what you want out of a BPO, you can always sell it to get your initial investment back. You don't "lose" the money you spent. Those who've never owned one make themselves so obvious

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Originally by: Gabriel Rosencrantz

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Edited by: Gabriel Rosencrantz on 21/08/2009 14:11:01
As to costs and returns on investment, you buy the BPO, manufacture to your heart's content, and then sell it if you need the capital back. And BECAUSE you can sell it back, your profits are HUGE. Why? Because you didn't have to spend any ISK on invention. You cut out an entire process, which saves you time and money. And because you can sell it back, you essentially paid nothing for the time you controlled the BPO.

If you can't see how that is a huge problem with an unbalanced game mechanic, you aren't doing the math.

edit for grammar

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Originally by: sitar seaton

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Time to remove t2 bpos.

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Originally by: Gabriel Rosencrantz

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Edited by: Gabriel Rosencrantz on 21/08/2009 14:11:01
As to costs and returns on investment, you buy the BPO, manufacture to your heart's content, and then sell it if you need the capital back. And BECAUSE you can sell it back, your profits are HUGE. Why? Because you didn't have to spend any ISK on invention. You cut out an entire process, which saves you time and money. And because you can sell it back, you essentially paid nothing for the time you controlled the BPO.

If you can't see how that is a huge problem with an unbalanced game mechanic, you aren't doing the math.

edit for grammar

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Originally by: Kalrand

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Kinda like a house right? I buy one, get to live in it, and then always sell it for more than I paid.

Worst case scenario I sell it for how much i paid and get all my capital back.

I don't know why any of you suckers rent.

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Originally by: sitar seaton

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Time to remove t2 bpos.

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Are you under the impression that if T2 BPOs are removed, profit margins on invention will increase?

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Originally by: Kitchie

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Edited by: Kitchie on 21/08/2009 05:15:55

Originally by: sitar seaton

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Time to remove t2 bpos.

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Why is that a problem? If you've spent billions buying a T2 BPO that will take 3 years to pay for itself, you might feel a bit miffed if they were pulled.

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Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha

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Quote:

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Your MSE II were removed from the game?

If not, what is the similitude?

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This was a response to the poster talking about "BPOs are such a big investment => it's unfair if anything happens to them".

The similitude is: I speculated MSE II would rise, they did not and suddenly I found myself with some hundreds of "meh" modules to dispose off somehow (I have been lucky though, I found a secondary hub where I still sold them high enough not to lose).

In the same way, if I speculate on a BPO *today*, there's nothing that has to guarantee that it has to be profitable, ever. CCP could nerf it tomorrow and the game is not suddenly unfair, it's just a risky speculation gone bad.

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Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha

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Stuff

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Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha

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Quote:

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I take it that you have an issue with T2 BPOs as well VV?

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Why should I?

I joined EvE too late (sadly, was busy with other MMOs before 2009) to ever be relevant in anything, so I am in peace with whatever happens.

What I can see, is odd and imho flawed remnants of a distant past interfering with the game progress of today.

What if one day CCP read their own reports (!) and decide to somehow kill T2 BPOs as late but as strong as they did when they closed the POS exploit? The exploit unlike the T2 BPOs was against the EULA but the consequences were what made CCP react. They suddenly realize that they vastly undervaluated the effects of T2 BPOs so late in the game.

I mean, I think everyone even BPO owners thought to impact maybe for 5% of the production, when this report shows different.

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Originally by: Lubomir Penev

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Originally by: Kitchie

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Edited by: Kitchie on 21/08/2009 05:15:55

Originally by: sitar seaton

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Time to remove t2 bpos.

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Why is that a problem? If you've spent billions buying a T2 BPO that will take 3 years to pay for itself, you might feel a bit miffed if they were pulled.

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So are people that found themselves with a huge stock of now unsaleable probes. If the whole game best interest is to change a game mechanic it will be done. Even at the cost of some emo rage quit.

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Quote:

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Vaerah, stop playing stupid, the request was "remove them", not "change them" so that poster was perfectly right and your example wrong.

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Quote:

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Despite your claims to the contrary, the content and general tone of your previous posts on the subject indicate that you do in fact have a problem with T2 BPOs.

I really don't see what the big problem with BPOs is

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Quote:

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So you now paragon removing a exploit to removing a item gained through regular game mechanics?

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Quote:

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But the probes are still there.

You can recycle them, sell them, use them, right?
They haven't disappeared from your hangar

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Originally by: Aria Gallaine

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Originally by: sitar seaton

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Time to remove t2 bpos.

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Are you under the impression that if T2 BPOs are removed, profit margins on invention will increase?

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Naive market economics seems to say they certainly will (when you eliminate the lowest marginal cost, non-inventing producers), and probably by an appreciable margin in some areas given the title statistic.

Is there some reason that they won't? The common argument I've seen is that BPOs produce a small enough market share not to matter much for the overall price, but clearly that's not true across all markets.

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Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha

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Quote:

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Vaerah, stop playing stupid, the request was "remove them", not "change them" so that poster was perfectly right and your example wrong.

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And you stop doing what you do in every single forum and with everyone (that is put words in other people's mouth to suit your opinion), beginning with this one, where I replied to a specific post (#3) and NOT to the OP nor I associate with the OP.

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Originally by: Kitchie

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Edited by: Kitchie on 21/08/2009 05:15:55

Originally by: sitar seaton

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Time to remove t2 bpos.

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Why is that a problem? If you've spent billions buying a T2 BPO that will take 3 years to pay for itself, you might feel a bit miffed if they were pulled.

From your post it seems that:

1. You can't afford to buy a T2 BPO yourself
2. You want to make more money inventing T2 ships at the expense of existing BPO owners.

Dream on....

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Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha

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While I have no problem about T2 BPOs (don't even affect me at all), I have to say that this is not a good "excuse".

Why should anyone - beginning with CCP - care that you spent 100B on a speculation? If so, I want my 100M I lost speculating on MSE II rising price back. Same fallacious reasonment, same "none else care".

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Quote:

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If you can't express what is your real meaning is your problem

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Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha

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Quote:

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So you now paragon removing a exploit to removing a item gained through regular game mechanics?

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"The exploit unlike the T2 BPOs was against the EULA"

As I said quit putting your blinders on what other people say.

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Quote:

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What if one day CCP read their own reports (!) and decide to somehow kill T2 BPOs as late but as strong as they did when they closed the POS exploit? The exploit unlike the T2 BPOs was against the EULA but the consequences were what made CCP react. They suddenly realize that they vastly undervaluated the effects of T2 BPOs so late in the game.

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Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha

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Quote:

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If you can't express what is your real meaning is your problem

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Sue me, others but you got what I meant and replied accordingly.
The day you talk my mother tongue as well as I talk English you are allowed to nitpick your usual way, mkay?

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Originally by: Venkul Mul

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Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha

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Quote:

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So you now paragon removing a exploit to removing a item gained through regular game mechanics?

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"The exploit unlike the T2 BPOs was against the EULA"

As I said quit putting your blinders on what other people say.

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As usual you cut the significant parts:

Quote:

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What if one day CCP read their own reports (!) and decide to somehow kill T2 BPOs as late but as strong as they did when they closed the POS exploit? The exploit unlike the T2 BPOs was against the EULA but the consequences were what made CCP react. They suddenly realize that they vastly undervaluated the effects of T2 BPOs so late in the game.

---

Even with your disclaimer in, you are comparing the T2 BPO to an exploit.

A honest comparison would have been the old capability of carrier to transport cargo in the ships in the hangar bay, an ability that made them a big cargo ship, but you instead have chosen to paragon it to an exploit.

Don't play with word. Your meaning is pretty clear.

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Or to put it in simpler terms: remove T2 BPOs and margins in BPO only items will rise to be the same as those in T2 items for which no BPO exists.

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Originally by: Venkul Mul

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Originally by: Aria Gallaine

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Originally by: sitar seaton

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Time to remove t2 bpos.

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Are you under the impression that if T2 BPOs are removed, profit margins on invention will increase?

---

Naive market economics seems to say they certainly will (when you eliminate the lowest marginal cost, non-inventing producers), and probably by an appreciable margin in some areas given the title statistic.

Is there some reason that they won't? The common argument I've seen is that BPOs produce a small enough market share not to matter much for the overall price, but clearly that's not true across all markets.

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2 reasons:

Production and competition.

Buyers will buy from the lowest sell order.

Invention production of BPC has very high maximum ceiling to the number of BPC produced (number of moon where you can anchor a lab POS and number of characters in play, datacores are a resource that adapt to the number of players doing R&D). So there will not be a shortage in BPC production. At some point there will be a shortage in moon minerals production but that will impact moon owners margins, not inventor margins.

So the inventor will be competing with other inventors to sell his product and, like it happen for the T1 ship market, they will cut the profit to the minimum level.

The only field where this will not be totally true will be the modules that today are totally produced by BPO because the item has a small market.

If there is enough interest for the item the price will rise to the point of making them worthwhile to invent with exactly the same margin of the other low sale invented items.
If the market can be covered by some named item dropped by NPC and the only advantage of T2 was a lower production cost from a BPO, the T2 item will disappear from the market.

So profit margin will not change.
Some marginal item will become rewarding for invention at low margins, a lot will simply disappear as there will be better options at a price comparable with invention.

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Originally by: Daeva Vios

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I for one believe that all T2 Waffle BPOs should be removed, though barring wholesale removal, sourdough and whole wheat would be a good start.

The Breakfast Barons who hold all us honest producers hostage through unfair competition must be stopped.

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Originally by: Aramith

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Or to put it in simpler terms: remove T2 BPOs and margins in BPO only items will rise to be the same as those in T2 items for which no BPO exists.

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margins raise to that of tech 2 items that no BPO exists?

last i checked on marauders for example, the ship was for sale on market for less that the material cost of the ship and that is before you add in the material cost of trying to invent the bpc as there are NO maruader bpo and there never was a maruader bpo.

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Originally by: Aramith

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Or to put it in simpler terms: remove T2 BPOs and margins in BPO only items will rise to be the same as those in T2 items for which no BPO exists.

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margins raise to that of tech 2 items that no BPO exists?

last i checked on marauders for example, the ship was for sale on market for less that the material cost of the ship and that is before you add in the material cost of trying to invent the bpc as there are NO maruader bpo and there never was a maruader bpo.

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Clearly this is the fault of the dastardly Marauder BPO owners! CCP STOP THIS UNFAIR OPPRESSION!!!1

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Originally by: Shadowsword

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When a large enough population is reached in a offer/demand market, ANY activity that is accessible to whoever want to do it won't really be profitable. That's why the real profit in the T2 production process is in the R64 moons. I'm baffled by the apparent number of people who don't grasp that.

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Originally by: Shadowsword

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When a large enough population is reached in a offer/demand market, ANY activity that is accessible to whoever want to do it won't really be profitable. That's why the real profit in the T2 production process is in the R64 moons. I'm baffled by the apparent number of people who don't grasp that.

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Originally by: Venkul Mul

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Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha

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Quote:

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So you now paragon removing a exploit to removing a item gained through regular game mechanics?

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"The exploit unlike the T2 BPOs was against the EULA"

As I said quit putting your blinders on what other people say.

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As usual you cut the significant parts:

Quote:

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What if one day CCP read their own reports (!) and decide to somehow kill T2 BPOs as late but as strong as they did when they closed the POS exploit? The exploit unlike the T2 BPOs was against the EULA but the consequences were what made CCP react. They suddenly realize that they vastly undervaluated the effects of T2 BPOs so late in the game.

---

Even with your disclaimer in, you are comparing the T2 BPO to an exploit.

A honest comparison would have been the old capability of carrier to transport cargo in the ships in the hangar bay, an ability that made them a big cargo ship, but you instead have chosen to paragon it to an exploit.

Don't play with word. Your meaning is pretty clear.

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"paragon"; I dont think this word means what you think it means.

The word you are looking for is "equate", or so I assume from context.

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Originally by: Aramith

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Or to put it in simpler terms: remove T2 BPOs and margins in BPO only items will rise to be the same as those in T2 items for which no BPO exists.

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margins raise to that of tech 2 items that no BPO exists?

last i checked on marauders for example, the ship was for sale on market for less that the material cost of the ship and that is before you add in the material cost of trying to invent the bpc as there are NO maruader bpo and there never was a maruader bpo.

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Originally by: Aria Gallaine

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I'm willing to be educated, but I think your economic model looks more naive than the one I was using. So I'll lay out how it looks to me.

Consider a standard supply vs. demand market model. That seems reasonably appropriate for the volumes in question at a busy market (i.e. Jita), though I haven't checked what the buy/sell gap is like.

Demand is probably typical, though it'll get funny out toward very high volumes where people just don't go through ships fast enough. Probably not in that regime though.

The supply of T2 ships is composed of two populations. There are the BPO-holders, and the inventors. The BPO holders have lower minimum price than any rational inventor, but their total volume is limited. I assume they'll be running all-out (if they aren't, there's probably no room for inventors in the market). The inventors enter the market at higher prices. Not all at the same price. Even if they all have the same costs, they'll certainly have a range of threshold profit margins at which they join in. Price elasticity of supply might be large, but isn't infinite.

So the supply curve also has a fairly typical structure, though there might be a discontinuity between the price that draws out maximum BPO capacity and the minimum price to attract inventors. Anyway, I assume the price level is well above that point, so that's not essential.

If you exterminate the BPOs, you have a leftward shift of the supply curve. The equilibrium point moves along the demand curve to lower volume and higher prices. The volume of invention will be higher than before, but not enough to fully compensate for the loss of BPO production. The higher prices will either go into inventor's pockets or be passed on to research material suppliers and mineral miners.


So that's the market economics version. Dunno how well it represents matters in Eve.

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Originally by: Aria Gallaine

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Originally by: Shadowsword

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When a large enough population is reached in a offer/demand market, ANY activity that is accessible to whoever want to do it won't really be profitable. That's why the real profit in the T2 production process is in the R64 moons. I'm baffled by the apparent number of people who don't grasp that.

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That requires a number of conditions besides large population...

Are you saying that invention, manufacturing, missioning, and market-making trade all only earn economic profit? Hmm. Not even sure how you'd be able to identify that without an established interest rate and a way to figure out the price of different players' time.

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Quote:

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it is a asset destroyed by an act of god.

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Originally by: Carniflex

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Failing that and if they really are 'harmless' then they should be seeded on open market so everyone who want's can get one without having to rely another players will to sell em one.

They are not unique in the same way as state raven or federal megatohorn so there is no reason to not make them available for public if they are so harmless and unprofitable as T2 BPO owners like to state.

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Originally by: Venkul Mul

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You are missing a point:

Invention supply is capable of (almost) infinitely increase.

The supply of moon minerals will make a ceiling in production well before the ceiling of invented BPC could be reached.

So there will be only a temporary reduction in supply, covered almost immediately by people that already invent.

So the market will stabilize at the current margin after a brief fluctuation.

Let make an example:

Currently I am inventing with only 1 character even if I have 3 characters with the needed skills.

T2 BPO are removed (CCP give no annuncement to avoid markets manipulations).

I will be tempted to start inventing the items that I feel will have a sensible decrease in supply, like everyone here I have read the QUEN, so run to invent and build interceptors.

At the same time market manipulators will be buying all the low priced interceptors as the price will increase.

For 4-5 days price spikes as the low cost interceptors disappear and are re-offered at higher prices. Interceptors price double.

Day 6 all the interceptors build by the first wave of after patch builders hit the market.

Price decrease from the 200% level it has reached to 150%.

Day 7 more latecomer inventors hit the market, price drop further.

Day 8 another wave of inventors, price drop again.

Day 9 the first wave of inventors hit again while people without frigate BPC made before the patch hit the market with his wave of interceptors.

Incompetent market speculator panics as the interceptors prices are dropping like rocks and they have brought them while the price was climbing.

Interceptors market collapse and for a period the price go even lower than before patch to later stabilize to a level that give about the same return than before patch.

If you doubt my scenario ask some expert market manipulator.
I think they will agree.

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Originally by: Allisie

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In a recent interview, a dev mentioned that ships and skills cause lag and will be removed in EVE 2.

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Originally by: Shuut U

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I have to agree with Venkul on this one. I think his timeline is a bit off for Jita, but for other market hubs it makes sense. The biggest factor that he missed is the builders that hold large quantities of stock, or the ones that will travel to outlying regions to buy low and sell higher.

I wouldn't expect a 200% increase in prices except for items which people normally don't invent. The other problem he is missing is the fact that if invention was the ONLY way to build T2, there would be spike with invention costs for the next 2 months. Basically, if ALL T2 construction relied on invention, datacore prices would skyrocket, causing invention and final build prices to increase.

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Originally by: Venkul Mul

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Most things are harmless in a limited quantity and would harm people in large quantity, from food to medicinals.

For manufactures adding T2 BPO to the market would be harmless, you buy them when you have enough isk.

For T2 BPO owners would be a further devaluation, but the original item will still be in theirs hands, so it would be a "bad market judgment" kind of thing.

For inventors it would mean losing the control of the section for the market that they now control. So it would be harmful for invention.

Seeding more BPO would hurt mostly inventors.

The only way to make that kind of change "fair" for inventors would be to add "inventable" items to the game every few months and seeding the correspondent T2 BPO only after a year or so.

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Originally by: Roemy Schneider

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lots of tools:


a) set "base waste" on T2 blueprints to 5% across the board.

- researched BPOs gain/lose nothing
- invention's waste levels increment by 5%
--- takes strain off moon market by... 20%? helps dragging on that failed concept of static supply in an inflationary system -.-

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Originally by: Venkul Mul

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I think that the effect on moon minerals would be way less, remember that ME don't influence the T2 components wastage for modules, it change only the asteroid minerals requirements.

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Originally by: Mara Kell

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Originally by: Venkul Mul

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I think that the effect on moon minerals would be way less, remember that ME don't influence the T2 components wastage for modules, it change only the asteroid minerals requirements.

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Since when? Oo

ME 0 Zealot needs 165 Antimatter Reactors and ME -2 needs 195 Antimatter Reactors.

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Originally by: Carniflex

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Your suggestion for the way to add T2 BPO's is reasonable. I actually expected something like that before current invention was implemented. Ie something that takes effort, time and resources and not possible to solve by throwing only isk at the problem.

Then again I also expected origin BPC ME/PE levels to affect the resulting T2 BPC ME/PE levels. I probably would not be as militant about those prints if it would (invention would still be at slight disadvantage as it needs cores and is propability based). It sure sounded like that when invention was in planning phases but well ... it's not there. Not yet. Nothing unreasonable ofc. Say 1.5 times more ME research on T1 would result 1 'tick' on T2 BPC or something like that. For example if 1 ME tick would take 1 mnth on T2 BPO doing 1.5 months of ME on T1 BPO and using those copies for invention would cause your T2 BPC have 1 better ME.

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Quote:

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The latest devblog numbers did surprise be a bit. I actually expected invention produced stuff to have bigger market share. In the end ofc it's all limited by available moon minerals and dyspo moons are the new Hulk BPO's.

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Originally by: Venkul Mul

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You are missing a point:

Invention supply is capable of (almost) infinitely increase.

The supply of moon minerals will make a ceiling in production well before the ceiling of invented BPC could be reached.

So there will be only a temporary reduction in supply, covered almost immediately by people that already invent.

So the market will stabilize at the current margin after a brief fluctuation.

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Originally by: Cute Cuddles

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I love how time and time again people forget that when you've had what you want out of a BPO, you can always sell it to get your initial investment back. You don't "lose" the money you spent. Those who've never owned one make themselves so obvious.

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Originally by: Aria Gallaine

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Originally by: Venkul Mul

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You are missing a point:

Invention supply is capable of (almost) infinitely increase.

The supply of moon minerals will make a ceiling in production well before the ceiling of invented BPC could be reached.

So there will be only a temporary reduction in supply, covered almost immediately by people that already invent.

So the market will stabilize at the current margin after a brief fluctuation.

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I think you're misunderstanding what 'supply' means in the context.

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Originally by: Aria Gallaine

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The supply curve takes into account both producers entering the market and existing producers producing more. It's a curve plotted on axes of price and quantity, and pretty much has to curve upward. For it to shift requires a change in the costs of production (including producer's profit demand).

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Originally by: Aria Gallaine

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You get exactly such a shift when the BPOs vanish, since you lose lower-cost production. The additional inventors coming in to take up the slack is not a shift of supply, it's the market coming back into equilibrium with the new supply curve.

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Originally by: Aria Gallaine

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Your model for the first week or two makes sense to my limited knowledge, but I'm not talking about the first week or two. I'm talking about where the price winds up after the shocks are worked out and the new equilibrium is reached. The only way that equilibrium could not be at a higher price, if the basic model applies, is if another shift occurs (and I see no reason for that) or if the supply curve is completely flat (which seems impossible).

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Originally by: Venkul Mul

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Originally by: Aramith

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Or to put it in simpler terms: remove T2 BPOs and margins in BPO only items will rise to be the same as those in T2 items for which no BPO exists.

---

margins raise to that of tech 2 items that no BPO exists?

last i checked on marauders for example, the ship was for sale on market for less that the material cost of the ship and that is before you add in the material cost of trying to invent the bpc as there are NO maruader bpo and there never was a maruader bpo.

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I think you have got exactly what Malcanis was saying.

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Originally by: Venkul Mul

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Supply: Economics. the quantity of a commodity that is in the market and available for purchase

Seem fairly clear and is not the same thing of the meeting point of supply and demand.

If you prefer you can substitute production to supply:

"Invention production is capable of (almost) infinitely increase."

is more to your taste?

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Originally by: Venkul Mul

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Time and quantity.
You are again changing the focus to avoid the point that T2 BPC production can be scaled up almost infinitely.

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Originally by: Venkul Mul

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Wrong.

The inventors will cover all the missing production from BPO on the larger part of the items on market (barring very marginal items like Small smartbomb II), so overabundant production (exactly like today) will be available for the items and the prices (when corrected for the increase in moon mineral and datacores cost, a increase that will be passed to the final buyer) will be the same, with the same % gain.

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Originally by: Venkul Mul

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Try an experiment: look the margin for inventors on the most used HACs (where inventors own 75% of the market) and those of the more used Marauder.

Based on your theory the marauder should have a higher profit in percentage, based on mine the difference should be some percentage point.

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Originally by: Kara Mitsui

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I believe, but I'm not sure, that the tension between T2 BPO holders and T2 inventors is good for keeping a balance in the market.

But overall, I just think it's good for the game to have variation in manufacturing processes. The real world isn't a perfectly level playing field, we don't all get an equal chance to succeed.

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Originally by: Carniflex

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Originally by: Kara Mitsui

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I believe, but I'm not sure, that the tension between T2 BPO holders and T2 inventors is good for keeping a balance in the market.

But overall, I just think it's good for the game to have variation in manufacturing processes. The real world isn't a perfectly level playing field, we don't all get an equal chance to succeed.

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While "fairness" is often mentioned in those discussion I don't think it's about fairness. EVE is not designed to be entirely fair game. However - inability to get T2 BPO is somewhat immersion breaking for some people. If this would be "real" world you would have illegal T2 production from illegal T2 BPO's in 0.0 space where CONCORD nor empires can enforce their rules. T2 BPO's are kinda like copyright stuff - megacorps sold X numbers of licenes to pod pilots and so it is. What's irritating that you can't really break those even in lawless places where "police" can't get ya. There is no unbreakable security systems.

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Originally by: Carniflex

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Originally by: Kara Mitsui

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I believe, but I'm not sure, that the tension between T2 BPO holders and T2 inventors is good for keeping a balance in the market.

But overall, I just think it's good for the game to have variation in manufacturing processes. The real world isn't a perfectly level playing field, we don't all get an equal chance to succeed.

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While "fairness" is often mentioned in those discussion I don't think it's about fairness. EVE is not designed to be entirely fair game. However - inability to get T2 BPO is somewhat immersion breaking for some people. If this would be "real" world you would have illegal T2 production from illegal T2 BPO's in 0.0 space where CONCORD nor empires can enforce their rules. T2 BPO's are kinda like copyright stuff - megacorps sold X numbers of licenes to pod pilots and so it is. What's irritating that you can't really break those even in lawless places where "police" can't get ya. There is no unbreakable security systems.

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But there are plenty in EvE. Even the Guristas will respect the security of my hangar in H-PA...

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Originally by: Carniflex

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Originally by: Kara Mitsui

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I believe, but I'm not sure, that the tension between T2 BPO holders and T2 inventors is good for keeping a balance in the market.

But overall, I just think it's good for the game to have variation in manufacturing processes. The real world isn't a perfectly level playing field, we don't all get an equal chance to succeed.

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While "fairness" is often mentioned in those discussion I don't think it's about fairness. EVE is not designed to be entirely fair game. However - inability to get T2 BPO is somewhat immersion breaking for some people. If this would be "real" world you would have illegal T2 production from illegal T2 BPO's in 0.0 space where CONCORD nor empires can enforce their rules. T2 BPO's are kinda like copyright stuff - megacorps sold X numbers of licenes to pod pilots and so it is. What's irritating that you can't really break those even in lawless places where "police" can't get ya. There is no unbreakable security systems.

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Originally by: Deelicious

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I love it when people take great delight in saying "EVE isn't fair" while simultaneously discussing game mechanics. If EVE isn't fair, why do you care WHAT the game mechanics are? Whatever they are, they aren't fair, you aren't special, and no one cares. That is, if fairness doesn't matter. Or will you try to switch tactics and call it "balance"? They amount to the same thing from a design perspective.

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Originally by: Trebor DeCaldar

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I got screwed with the Rigs,

I have stack of 'LARGE' BPO's that are researched and are useless now because no one uses them on BS's.

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Originally by: romid sparx

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i must admit being new to invention and fairly new to eve I just didnt get it ??. I spent ages training skills and get my first success which cost me loads of isk only to find its cheaper to buy the item on the market than is is for me to invent and make it with my max 4 items BPC go figure ??..

so whats the point of invention ?..

Ive only just realised reading this thread that someone in game with a BPO has an unlimited no of runs so does,nt have to take into account the cost of inventing and therein lies the prob i guess..

enlightening read thanx for this thread... guess i just wasted months training a scientist ..

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• Option 1 - The BPO owner receives the isk from "GOD" that he initially invested in the BPO.


• Option 2 - The BPO's become useless and can be kept by collectors or traded to NPC's at a set price.


• Option 3 - The BPO's are gradually removed by turning them into copies of the original

Originally by: Agallis Zinthros

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Originally by: Trebor DeCaldar

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I got screwed with the Rigs,

I have stack of 'LARGE' BPO's that are researched and are useless now because no one uses them on BS's.

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Wait, what? Noone uses large rigs anymore? I'm a fleet commander and last time I checked 75% of my men(and my enemies) fly rigged BSes. Why don't you fact check before you post?

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Originally by: Cadde

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OPTION C - Grow T3, release T4, T5, T6, T-bone

This might sound really stupid at first and it probably is too. But one way or another every eve player will have gotten to the point where they say: "Been there, done that"
What does the future hold for them?
If CCP where to speed up content release and replace the current T2 items with stronger, faster more versatile ships, modules and so on then what's the point in having T2 at all?

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Originally by: Celia Therone

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Originally by: Agallis Zinthros

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Originally by: Trebor DeCaldar

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I got screwed with the Rigs,

I have stack of 'LARGE' BPO's that are researched and are useless now because no one uses them on BS's.

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Wait, what? Noone uses large rigs anymore? I'm a fleet commander and last time I checked 75% of my men(and my enemies) fly rigged BSes. Why don't you fact check before you post?

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He didn't say that no-one uses any large rigs anymore, he said that he had BPOs for rigs that no one uses on BSs.

I have two of these...

The Large Gravity Capacitor Upgrade market is tiny - pre patch Jita moved a couple of hundred/day, post patch Jita moves about 25 because nearly all of the demand is for small rigs for covert ops frigates. This market is essentially dead given how many people have the bpo's and how low the demand is.

The Large Cargohold Optimization market has dropped from about 400/day to about 100, and is still falling. Most of these rigs are used on medium ships (industrials, deep space transports). There's still some life in this market, but it has tanked pretty hard.

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Originally by: Rellik B00n

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Post of the thread.

So as an avid forum watcher and heading into autumn we see our two distinctive parties in this thread:

T2 BPO owners
non-T2 BPO owners.

The T2 BPO owners are a very small minority of the playerbase that are accounting for a large chunk of the market. It is not hard to see why they are so anti-change.

Everyone else (regardless of how many times the other parts of the equation are explained) just feels shafted by the whole existence of T2 BPOs.

For myself this rig post says it all: here is an arbitrary across-the-board move on BPOs that cost many pilots lots of ISK, but needed doing for the advancement of the game. The position of T2 BPOs is EXACTLY the same and should be dealt with in the exact same manner.

If we lose maybe what? 50 players? To emo-rage-quit then so be it. Invention should not be the half-arsed implementation it is today, it needs to be all or nothing.

RB

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Originally by: Malcanis

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If you want to boost invention margins, campaign for alternate sources of moongoo.

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Originally by: Rellik B00n

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Everyone else (regardless of how many times the other parts of the equation are explained) just feels shafted by the whole existence of T2 BPOs

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For the hundredth time: T2 BPOs are not what are keeping invention margins low....

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Quote:

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FINAL WORDS

Whatever CCP decide to do with the T2 BPO's, i feel that if they do something it's way better than doing nothing.
Ever since i learned that T2 BPO's where "out of my reach" I've been disgusted at the T2 BPO's, it just doesn't sit right with new people who missed the lottery days and are left to "compete" with the ones who already made their billions and still dictate prices with blueprints they are very unlikely to sell. I am talking about those that simply are too good to be sold, ever...
The others that are sold are simply too expensive for about 99% of all players.
No matter what, the change will have a ripple effect in eve. But what change doesn't do that, CCP did the speed nerf right?

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Quote:

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Option E: increase the supply of moongold

With greater material supply, the comparative advantage of a BPO drops in two ways; first the difference in the relative cost of production will fall. Second, the total volume of production will increase so that a smaller share can be produced from BPOs.

Also one might note that "56% of all T2 ships" is a naive statistic; not all T2 ships are equal.

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Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Option E: increase the supply of moongold

With greater material supply, the comparative advantage of a BPO drops in two ways; first the difference in the relative cost of production will fall. Second, the total volume of production will increase so that a smaller share can be produced from BPOs.

Also one might note that "56% of all T2 ships" is a naive statistic; not all T2 ships are equal.

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This will leave BPO owners individually untouched as only the global BPO production will be relatively lower than before.
But this will harm inventors individually because by reducing moon costs you widen the market and this results in further earnings erosion due to bigger competition.

Furthermore, increasing the market leads to an increase of datacores price, something affecting inventors more than BPO owners, with lower base costs and thus more buffer.

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It will reduce the comparative advantage of the BPO owner because material efficiency will matter less. And it will increase the inventor's total volume because BPOs can only supply a finite number of units; any demand after this must be supplied by inventors.
Your point about datacores is well taken, but at least production of these can be scaled up. But at the moment, moongoo is the limiting factor for T2 ship production.

At the end of the day, the ultimate point remains: Invention margins are decided by inventors competing with each other. If CCP changed $X and nerfed $Y and removed $Z such that Invention profits tripled, then immediately more players would get into invention, and inventors would focus more on invention. After a short period of boosted profits, those margins would normalise.

Anyone who believes that if CCP removes BPOs then inventors will then be significantly better off is simply deluding themselves. That would only work if there was an entry barrier to invention comparable to obtaining a T2 BPO in the first place. As long as it only takes a few hundred million ISK and a few hundred thousand SP, invention can never escape this basic limitation.

Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha

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Originally by: Cadde

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stuff

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Wrong 1: adding tiers and tiers of new stuff makes EvE into a sad clone of WoW, where items >>>>>>>>>>>> player.
EvE has the rare property of being more player skill based than "stats" driven, if we kill this factor, we kill an important if not fundamental part of EvE.

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Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha

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Wrong 2 (partial more than wrong): you notice BPOs as "disgusting"? There were MANY worse and more way to allow for early player to get trillions and you will NEVER stand a chance to compete because all those features were nerfed or removed.

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Originally by: Cadde

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Looking at it from my perspective... (Which is not what i do all the time)
I feel it is easier for me to build an empire to strike down on the moongoo alliance(s) and take their resources than it is to obtain the ultra rare T2 BPO that has a profit margin of 100 mil per produced item.
Not that i think it would be easy at all to overrun a moongoo alliance since they probably have everything and i started with nothing, but with enough hard work it CAN be done. Alliances can be infiltrated, others can be turned against them, brute force with the element of surprise can be employed.
But no matter what i do (barring hacking the BPO owners account) will get me that BPO.

The feeling I get when you learn that T2 BPO's aren't seeded anymore but still exist in the game is that of pure disgust of the whole thing.
It's easy to say i should have joined eve back in 2003, now i didn't do that but i still wanna be able to do the same things as everybody else... SOME DAY. [\quote]

I think this one expresses my opinion on T2 BPO's in clearer terms than my own ramblings about them. They just rub me in a wrong way. They will do that even if I do not invent by just being out there.

It is unfortunate that some people have invested a huge amounts of isk in them, but that's the risk they took with those investments seeing as in 5 years they would need to produce off them to 'break even' EVE would have 10 major expansions. That is like from 2003 to today.

Originally by: Cadde

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Looking at it from my perspective... (Which is not what i do all the time)
I feel it is easier for me to build an empire to strike down on the moongoo alliance(s) and take their resources than it is to obtain the ultra rare T2 BPO that has a profit margin of 100 mil per produced item.
Not that i think it would be easy at all to overrun a moongoo alliance since they probably have everything and i started with nothing, but with enough hard work it CAN be done. Alliances can be infiltrated, others can be turned against them, brute force with the element of surprise can be employed.
But no matter what i do (barring hacking the BPO owners account) will get me that BPO.

The feeling I get when you learn that T2 BPO's aren't seeded anymore but still exist in the game is that of pure disgust of the whole thing.
It's easy to say i should have joined eve back in 2003, now i didn't do that but i still wanna be able to do the same things as everybody else... SOME DAY.

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Originally by: Rellik B00n

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wooaah there, nearly fallen down to page 3, we cant be having that can we?

55% of ALL T2 goods produced are from BPOs?

or just ships?

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Originally by: Ariane VoxDei

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Lots of nonsense

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Originally by: Cadde

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Deflation is a bad thing for all of eve's population but this could be done in line with a insurance reform of ships used in unlawful acts and empire/0.0 wars.

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Originally by: Jitabug

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MMO lore is full of items that were hard or near impossible to obtain. It would be much poorer if those items did not exist, for they fuel intrigue, betrayl, passion abd canmradarie. I do not own a T2 BPO, but I aspire to have one. Obtaining a T2 BPO is a huge part of the industrialist "end game" in EVE at the moment for a lot of people. When you casually talk about throwing away T2 BPOs, you're talking about removing a shedload of people's endgame. For what? Some tiny advantage it gives the holders? So what, they're not "soulbound".
You have methods of obtaining T2 BPOs if you care that much. This isn't the kind of world that does "resets" and any time it does retcons gameplay it cheapens itself. The chances of you getting your hands on a tournament battleship or the Opus Luxury Yacht are negligible. They are the next logical things to remove. Then what? Improve the drop rates of officer mods because you don't get to have those?
Stay off the slippery slope of fail. And learn maths and the markets, sneckheads.

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Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha

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I don't see a real salvific power of BPOs for those unpopular (read: crap) modules ships.

BPOs poison the regular course of the game so that bad modules don't go down in flames as they should do and thus CCP won't review them to make them good enough to be worth buying. This is actually negative in the grand economy of the game and imho it's an argument *against* BPOs more than one *for* them.

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Originally by: Whambulance Crowd

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Blah ...Blah ...Blah ...Blah Blah.. ---- T2 BPO... Nerf... Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah...unfair... Blah, Blah, Blah... whaaaaaaaa!!!!

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Originally by: Afrodita B

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I think BPOs should just disapear and BPO owners should be refunded with the research points they spent to get the bpos.
So people who won BPOs and have been enjoying them for a long time would get the research points back to buy all the datacores they want.

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Originally by: Afrodita B

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The ones that got a fortune without needing T2 BPOs and bought them from the market. They will be all right unles the T2 BPOs made them lazy. But I doubt so.

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Originally by: Venkul Mul

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An those that have brought the BPO?

They should get nothing?
What the expended?

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Originally by: Rellik B00n

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Originally by: Venkul Mul

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An those that have brought the BPO?

They should get nothing?
What the expended?

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yep, costing a few people a little bit of ISK has never bothered CCP for any other game mechanic theyve changed.

Ill have your stuff and dont let the door hit you in the ass on the way out tbh.

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Originally by: Jinx Barker

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Edited by: Jinx Barker on 05/09/2009 02:42:49

Originally by: Whambulance Crowd

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Blah ...Blah ...Blah ...Blah Blah.. ---- T2 BPO... Nerf... Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah...unfair... Blah, Blah, Blah... whaaaaaaaa!!!!

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Ok that sums up all the noobins wannabe communists who want to take away my hard earned BPOs. I say bite me. If you want them, then do what I did, EARN ENOUGH ISK USING YOUR F-ING BRAINS God Gave YOU them brains for a reason - and BUY THE DAMNED BPOs. EVE is NOT A FAIR GAME, EVE has the HAVEs and the HAVENOTs. But, nothing stopping a player from earning ISK by their wits and ingenuity, and entering into a T2 BPO market, and making 2-5% Return on the billions upon billions of investments.

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