Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha

---

Quote:

---

Vaerah, stop playing stupid, the request was "remove them", not "change them" so that poster was perfectly right and your example wrong.

---

And you stop doing what you do in every single forum and with everyone (that is put words in other people's mouth to suit your opinion), beginning with this one, where I replied to a specific post (#3) and NOT to the OP nor I associate with the OP.

---

Originally by: Kitchie

---

Edited by: Kitchie on 21/08/2009 05:15:55

Originally by: sitar seaton

---

Time to remove t2 bpos.

---

Why is that a problem? If you've spent billions buying a T2 BPO that will take 3 years to pay for itself, you might feel a bit miffed if they were pulled.

From your post it seems that:

1. You can't afford to buy a T2 BPO yourself
2. You want to make more money inventing T2 ships at the expense of existing BPO owners.

Dream on....

---

Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha

---

While I have no problem about T2 BPOs (don't even affect me at all), I have to say that this is not a good "excuse".

Why should anyone - beginning with CCP - care that you spent 100B on a speculation? If so, I want my 100M I lost speculating on MSE II rising price back. Same fallacious reasonment, same "none else care".

---

Quote:

---

If you can't express what is your real meaning is your problem

---

Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha

---

Quote:

---

So you now paragon removing a exploit to removing a item gained through regular game mechanics?

---

"The exploit unlike the T2 BPOs was against the EULA"

As I said quit putting your blinders on what other people say.

---

Quote:

---

What if one day CCP read their own reports (!) and decide to somehow kill T2 BPOs as late but as strong as they did when they closed the POS exploit? The exploit unlike the T2 BPOs was against the EULA but the consequences were what made CCP react. They suddenly realize that they vastly undervaluated the effects of T2 BPOs so late in the game.

---

Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha

---

Quote:

---

If you can't express what is your real meaning is your problem

---

Sue me, others but you got what I meant and replied accordingly.
The day you talk my mother tongue as well as I talk English you are allowed to nitpick your usual way, mkay?

---

Originally by: Venkul Mul

---

Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha

---

Quote:

---

So you now paragon removing a exploit to removing a item gained through regular game mechanics?

---

"The exploit unlike the T2 BPOs was against the EULA"

As I said quit putting your blinders on what other people say.

---

As usual you cut the significant parts:

Quote:

---

What if one day CCP read their own reports (!) and decide to somehow kill T2 BPOs as late but as strong as they did when they closed the POS exploit? The exploit unlike the T2 BPOs was against the EULA but the consequences were what made CCP react. They suddenly realize that they vastly undervaluated the effects of T2 BPOs so late in the game.

---

Even with your disclaimer in, you are comparing the T2 BPO to an exploit.

A honest comparison would have been the old capability of carrier to transport cargo in the ships in the hangar bay, an ability that made them a big cargo ship, but you instead have chosen to paragon it to an exploit.

Don't play with word. Your meaning is pretty clear.

---

Originally by: Malcanis

---

Or to put it in simpler terms: remove T2 BPOs and margins in BPO only items will rise to be the same as those in T2 items for which no BPO exists.

---

Originally by: Venkul Mul

---

Originally by: Aria Gallaine

---

Originally by: Malcanis

---

Originally by: sitar seaton

---

Time to remove t2 bpos.

---

Are you under the impression that if T2 BPOs are removed, profit margins on invention will increase?

---

Naive market economics seems to say they certainly will (when you eliminate the lowest marginal cost, non-inventing producers), and probably by an appreciable margin in some areas given the title statistic.

Is there some reason that they won't? The common argument I've seen is that BPOs produce a small enough market share not to matter much for the overall price, but clearly that's not true across all markets.

---

2 reasons:

Production and competition.

Buyers will buy from the lowest sell order.

Invention production of BPC has very high maximum ceiling to the number of BPC produced (number of moon where you can anchor a lab POS and number of characters in play, datacores are a resource that adapt to the number of players doing R&D). So there will not be a shortage in BPC production. At some point there will be a shortage in moon minerals production but that will impact moon owners margins, not inventor margins.

So the inventor will be competing with other inventors to sell his product and, like it happen for the T1 ship market, they will cut the profit to the minimum level.

The only field where this will not be totally true will be the modules that today are totally produced by BPO because the item has a small market.

If there is enough interest for the item the price will rise to the point of making them worthwhile to invent with exactly the same margin of the other low sale invented items.
If the market can be covered by some named item dropped by NPC and the only advantage of T2 was a lower production cost from a BPO, the T2 item will disappear from the market.

So profit margin will not change.
Some marginal item will become rewarding for invention at low margins, a lot will simply disappear as there will be better options at a price comparable with invention.

---

Originally by: Daeva Vios

---

I for one believe that all T2 Waffle BPOs should be removed, though barring wholesale removal, sourdough and whole wheat would be a good start.

The Breakfast Barons who hold all us honest producers hostage through unfair competition must be stopped.

---

Originally by: Aramith

---

Originally by: Malcanis

---

Or to put it in simpler terms: remove T2 BPOs and margins in BPO only items will rise to be the same as those in T2 items for which no BPO exists.

---

margins raise to that of tech 2 items that no BPO exists?

last i checked on marauders for example, the ship was for sale on market for less that the material cost of the ship and that is before you add in the material cost of trying to invent the bpc as there are NO maruader bpo and there never was a maruader bpo.

---

Originally by: Malcanis

---

Originally by: Aramith

---

Originally by: Malcanis

---

Or to put it in simpler terms: remove T2 BPOs and margins in BPO only items will rise to be the same as those in T2 items for which no BPO exists.

---

margins raise to that of tech 2 items that no BPO exists?

last i checked on marauders for example, the ship was for sale on market for less that the material cost of the ship and that is before you add in the material cost of trying to invent the bpc as there are NO maruader bpo and there never was a maruader bpo.

---

Clearly this is the fault of the dastardly Marauder BPO owners! CCP STOP THIS UNFAIR OPPRESSION!!!1

---

Originally by: Shadowsword

---

When a large enough population is reached in a offer/demand market, ANY activity that is accessible to whoever want to do it won't really be profitable. That's why the real profit in the T2 production process is in the R64 moons. I'm baffled by the apparent number of people who don't grasp that.

---

Originally by: Shadowsword

---

When a large enough population is reached in a offer/demand market, ANY activity that is accessible to whoever want to do it won't really be profitable. That's why the real profit in the T2 production process is in the R64 moons. I'm baffled by the apparent number of people who don't grasp that.

---

Originally by: Malcanis

---

Originally by: Venkul Mul

---

Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha

---

Quote:

---

So you now paragon removing a exploit to removing a item gained through regular game mechanics?

---

"The exploit unlike the T2 BPOs was against the EULA"

As I said quit putting your blinders on what other people say.

---

As usual you cut the significant parts:

Quote:

---

What if one day CCP read their own reports (!) and decide to somehow kill T2 BPOs as late but as strong as they did when they closed the POS exploit? The exploit unlike the T2 BPOs was against the EULA but the consequences were what made CCP react. They suddenly realize that they vastly undervaluated the effects of T2 BPOs so late in the game.

---

Even with your disclaimer in, you are comparing the T2 BPO to an exploit.

A honest comparison would have been the old capability of carrier to transport cargo in the ships in the hangar bay, an ability that made them a big cargo ship, but you instead have chosen to paragon it to an exploit.

Don't play with word. Your meaning is pretty clear.

---

"paragon"; I dont think this word means what you think it means.

The word you are looking for is "equate", or so I assume from context.

---

Originally by: Aramith

---

Originally by: Malcanis

---

Or to put it in simpler terms: remove T2 BPOs and margins in BPO only items will rise to be the same as those in T2 items for which no BPO exists.

---

margins raise to that of tech 2 items that no BPO exists?

last i checked on marauders for example, the ship was for sale on market for less that the material cost of the ship and that is before you add in the material cost of trying to invent the bpc as there are NO maruader bpo and there never was a maruader bpo.

---

Originally by: Aria Gallaine

---

I'm willing to be educated, but I think your economic model looks more naive than the one I was using. So I'll lay out how it looks to me.

Consider a standard supply vs. demand market model. That seems reasonably appropriate for the volumes in question at a busy market (i.e. Jita), though I haven't checked what the buy/sell gap is like.

Demand is probably typical, though it'll get funny out toward very high volumes where people just don't go through ships fast enough. Probably not in that regime though.

The supply of T2 ships is composed of two populations. There are the BPO-holders, and the inventors. The BPO holders have lower minimum price than any rational inventor, but their total volume is limited. I assume they'll be running all-out (if they aren't, there's probably no room for inventors in the market). The inventors enter the market at higher prices. Not all at the same price. Even if they all have the same costs, they'll certainly have a range of threshold profit margins at which they join in. Price elasticity of supply might be large, but isn't infinite.

So the supply curve also has a fairly typical structure, though there might be a discontinuity between the price that draws out maximum BPO capacity and the minimum price to attract inventors. Anyway, I assume the price level is well above that point, so that's not essential.

If you exterminate the BPOs, you have a leftward shift of the supply curve. The equilibrium point moves along the demand curve to lower volume and higher prices. The volume of invention will be higher than before, but not enough to fully compensate for the loss of BPO production. The higher prices will either go into inventor's pockets or be passed on to research material suppliers and mineral miners.


So that's the market economics version. Dunno how well it represents matters in Eve.

---

Originally by: Aria Gallaine

---

Originally by: Shadowsword

---

When a large enough population is reached in a offer/demand market, ANY activity that is accessible to whoever want to do it won't really be profitable. That's why the real profit in the T2 production process is in the R64 moons. I'm baffled by the apparent number of people who don't grasp that.

---

That requires a number of conditions besides large population...

Are you saying that invention, manufacturing, missioning, and market-making trade all only earn economic profit? Hmm. Not even sure how you'd be able to identify that without an established interest rate and a way to figure out the price of different players' time.

---

Quote:

---

it is a asset destroyed by an act of god.

---

Originally by: Carniflex

---

Failing that and if they really are 'harmless' then they should be seeded on open market so everyone who want's can get one without having to rely another players will to sell em one.

They are not unique in the same way as state raven or federal megatohorn so there is no reason to not make them available for public if they are so harmless and unprofitable as T2 BPO owners like to state.

---

Originally by: Venkul Mul

---

You are missing a point:

Invention supply is capable of (almost) infinitely increase.

The supply of moon minerals will make a ceiling in production well before the ceiling of invented BPC could be reached.

So there will be only a temporary reduction in supply, covered almost immediately by people that already invent.

So the market will stabilize at the current margin after a brief fluctuation.

Let make an example:

Currently I am inventing with only 1 character even if I have 3 characters with the needed skills.

T2 BPO are removed (CCP give no annuncement to avoid markets manipulations).

I will be tempted to start inventing the items that I feel will have a sensible decrease in supply, like everyone here I have read the QUEN, so run to invent and build interceptors.

At the same time market manipulators will be buying all the low priced interceptors as the price will increase.

For 4-5 days price spikes as the low cost interceptors disappear and are re-offered at higher prices. Interceptors price double.

Day 6 all the interceptors build by the first wave of after patch builders hit the market.

Price decrease from the 200% level it has reached to 150%.

Day 7 more latecomer inventors hit the market, price drop further.

Day 8 another wave of inventors, price drop again.

Day 9 the first wave of inventors hit again while people without frigate BPC made before the patch hit the market with his wave of interceptors.

Incompetent market speculator panics as the interceptors prices are dropping like rocks and they have brought them while the price was climbing.

Interceptors market collapse and for a period the price go even lower than before patch to later stabilize to a level that give about the same return than before patch.

If you doubt my scenario ask some expert market manipulator.
I think they will agree.

---

Originally by: Allisie

---

In a recent interview, a dev mentioned that ships and skills cause lag and will be removed in EVE 2.

---

Originally by: Shuut U

---

I have to agree with Venkul on this one. I think his timeline is a bit off for Jita, but for other market hubs it makes sense. The biggest factor that he missed is the builders that hold large quantities of stock, or the ones that will travel to outlying regions to buy low and sell higher.

I wouldn't expect a 200% increase in prices except for items which people normally don't invent. The other problem he is missing is the fact that if invention was the ONLY way to build T2, there would be spike with invention costs for the next 2 months. Basically, if ALL T2 construction relied on invention, datacore prices would skyrocket, causing invention and final build prices to increase.

---

Originally by: Venkul Mul

---

Most things are harmless in a limited quantity and would harm people in large quantity, from food to medicinals.

For manufactures adding T2 BPO to the market would be harmless, you buy them when you have enough isk.

For T2 BPO owners would be a further devaluation, but the original item will still be in theirs hands, so it would be a "bad market judgment" kind of thing.

For inventors it would mean losing the control of the section for the market that they now control. So it would be harmful for invention.

Seeding more BPO would hurt mostly inventors.

The only way to make that kind of change "fair" for inventors would be to add "inventable" items to the game every few months and seeding the correspondent T2 BPO only after a year or so.

---