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Cen Varis	Posted - 2004.10.15 17:30:00 - [61] J'maybe - very astute observation.. :) note to all - j'maybe is talking about the isk themselves - NOT the perceived value of them. while talking only about those digital bits representing an isk... no player-player trading can create isk... ONLY ways to get isk into the eve economy is via NPCs/duping etc. similarly, only way to remove isk from the economy is NPCs/deleting etc. (i'm considering market, CCP, etc to be NPCs) Interstellat Cartographic League - Cen Varis
Cen Varis	Posted - 2004.10.15 17:30:00 - [62] J'maybe - very astute observation.. :) note to all - j'maybe is talking about the isk themselves - NOT the perceived value of them. while talking only about those digital bits representing an isk... no player-player trading can create isk... ONLY ways to get isk into the eve economy is via NPCs/duping etc. similarly, only way to remove isk from the economy is NPCs/deleting etc. (i'm considering market, CCP, etc to be NPCs) Interstellat Cartographic League - Cen Varis
jigga	Posted - 2004.10.15 17:42:00 - [63] Think as the NPC as the Federal Bank of Eve. Only they have the right to "print" ISK. If player to player transactions could increase the supply of ISK in Eve, a lot of people would be doing this. Thankfully you can't or we would be suffering from massive inflation. Keens is right.
jigga	Posted - 2004.10.15 17:42:00 - [64] Think as the NPC as the Federal Bank of Eve. Only they have the right to "print" ISK. If player to player transactions could increase the supply of ISK in Eve, a lot of people would be doing this. Thankfully you can't or we would be suffering from massive inflation. Keens is right.
Celticjim	Posted - 2004.10.15 18:06:00 - [65] The only way to create isk to create a new character. Can't remember the exact value, but the addition of a new character is the only way to introduce more currency into the marketplace without the interaction of this "npc involvement". However...the obvious counter that you are going to propose is the isk has to come from somewhere, and in essence, the creation of a charater triggers the "npc faction" to give out the introductory money. The whole problem with this debate is the parameters have been set such that anytime it appears non NPC involvement is argued, the author counters with his own theory on how the interaction includes the involvement of the "npc faction". The theoretical argument proposed here is nothing more than the infamous "chicken or the egg" debate. There is no winner and the proof will never be forthcoming. Can't remember the physicas laws other than "matter is neither created nor destroyed". This also holds true for isk. Every since the first player has logged in, it's all be about distribution of wealth The only way new isk was introduced into game without the interaction of npc's was the creation of the first new player that logged into Eve. That's the root imo. If that is not considered to be a creation of new currency due to "npc interaction", then this whole argument is pointless. CJ
Celticjim	Posted - 2004.10.15 18:06:00 - [66] The only way to create isk to create a new character. Can't remember the exact value, but the addition of a new character is the only way to introduce more currency into the marketplace without the interaction of this "npc involvement". However...the obvious counter that you are going to propose is the isk has to come from somewhere, and in essence, the creation of a charater triggers the "npc faction" to give out the introductory money. The whole problem with this debate is the parameters have been set such that anytime it appears non NPC involvement is argued, the author counters with his own theory on how the interaction includes the involvement of the "npc faction". The theoretical argument proposed here is nothing more than the infamous "chicken or the egg" debate. There is no winner and the proof will never be forthcoming. Can't remember the physicas laws other than "matter is neither created nor destroyed". This also holds true for isk. Every since the first player has logged in, it's all be about distribution of wealth The only way new isk was introduced into game without the interaction of npc's was the creation of the first new player that logged into Eve. That's the root imo. If that is not considered to be a creation of new currency due to "npc interaction", then this whole argument is pointless. CJ
J'Maybe Keens	Posted - 2004.10.15 18:08:00 - [67] Edited by: J'Maybe Keens on 15/10/2004 18:15:53 Celticjim, your n00b corp supplies you that stuff and they are the very soul of NPCs. It is interesting they never ask for it back, it is not only an interest free loan, it is a simple gift. You might imagine you would have to repay them when you left their corp, but it seems you don't. People seem to imagine I have created some sort of trick, I am simply applying basic money supply economics to Eve. The NPC's represent our RL govts. You and I cannot create physical dollars that is the role of govt. Its no trick, I've not invented something, it is how the world works. ******** AUTHOR of the COMPLETE mineral and ore Price guide, updated weekly, see Eve Guardian for details
J'Maybe Keens	Posted - 2004.10.15 18:08:00 - [68] Edited by: J'Maybe Keens on 15/10/2004 18:15:53 Celticjim, your n00b corp supplies you that stuff and they are the very soul of NPCs. It is interesting they never ask for it back, it is not only an interest free loan, it is a simple gift. You might imagine you would have to repay them when you left their corp, but it seems you don't. People seem to imagine I have created some sort of trick, I am simply applying basic money supply economics to Eve. The NPC's represent our RL govts. You and I cannot create physical dollars that is the role of govt. Its no trick, I've not invented something, it is how the world works. ******** AUTHOR of the COMPLETE mineral and ore Price guide, updated weekly, see Eve Guardian for details
Celticjim	Posted - 2004.10.15 18:11:00 - [69] Just reread the initial argument and my own response. I believe I went of on wild tangent, valid tangent, but one nonetheless... CJ
Celticjim	Posted - 2004.10.15 18:11:00 - [70] Just reread the initial argument and my own response. I believe I went of on wild tangent, valid tangent, but one nonetheless... CJ
Celticjim	Posted - 2004.10.15 18:12:00 - [71] Just reread the initial argument and my own response. I believe I went of on wild tangent, valid tangent, but one nonetheless... CJ
Celticjim	Posted - 2004.10.15 18:12:00 - [72] Just reread the initial argument and my own response. I believe I went of on wild tangent, valid tangent, but one nonetheless... CJ
Tindel	Posted - 2004.10.15 18:12:00 - [73] why argue? he is obviously right Maybe there is a way for players to bring in isk, i have no idea though :P Would be interesting to know Y helo thar
Tindel	Posted - 2004.10.15 18:12:00 - [74] why argue? he is obviously right Maybe there is a way for players to bring in isk, i have no idea though :P Would be interesting to know Y helo thar
J'Maybe Keens	Posted - 2004.10.15 18:26:00 - [75] Edited by: J'Maybe Keens on 15/10/2004 18:38:50 i like fact you brought up the noob ship thing, coz i think we should be made to pay for it in the end, it would make more sense. But yes its a tangent, but there have been far worse, someone has even opened up a flame thread claiming their idea had proved me wrong. You would not think something as boring as isk flows could become so interesting. ******** AUTHOR of the COMPLETE mineral and ore Price guide, updated weekly, see Eve Guardian for details
J'Maybe Keens	Posted - 2004.10.15 18:26:00 - [76] Edited by: J'Maybe Keens on 15/10/2004 18:38:50 i like fact you brought up the noob ship thing, coz i think we should be made to pay for it in the end, it would make more sense. But yes its a tangent, but there have been far worse, someone has even opened up a flame thread claiming their idea had proved me wrong. You would not think something as boring as isk flows could become so interesting. ******** AUTHOR of the COMPLETE mineral and ore Price guide, updated weekly, see Eve Guardian for details
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2004.10.15 18:44:00 - [77] Originally by: Rthor The least you can do is go dig up a book on trade economics, which you obviously did not have time to do in the time it took you to write your reply. At the end of the day your reputation depends on quality of your ideas. First, Mr. Keens is remarkably well schooled in Economics, outside of the game venue. Inside the game venue he does frighteningly well. (I'd love to rob him blind!) At the end of the day it is your repuation that depends upon your ideas. After more than a year of having our reputation on display, more less constant display, I don't think you will be able to slander us one whit... not with what you bring to the table sir.
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2004.10.15 18:44:00 - [78] Originally by: Rthor The least you can do is go dig up a book on trade economics, which you obviously did not have time to do in the time it took you to write your reply. At the end of the day your reputation depends on quality of your ideas. First, Mr. Keens is remarkably well schooled in Economics, outside of the game venue. Inside the game venue he does frighteningly well. (I'd love to rob him blind!) At the end of the day it is your repuation that depends upon your ideas. After more than a year of having our reputation on display, more less constant display, I don't think you will be able to slander us one whit... not with what you bring to the table sir.
Rthor	Posted - 2004.10.15 21:24:00 - [79] Anyway, what makes you so sure that you are right? What if I am "remarkably more schooled" in economics than you, what if what I just said is just standard advanced econ theory that you dont know, and what if what I said is just going well over your head? And what if then if all this is true then you proceed on flaming me and calling for uncalled for apology? And then your friends call me a troll. What I said has more meaning than anything that you have written. Why not learn and use it instead of remaining in your econ dark ages. If you construct what you said as narrowly as you want to construct it then what you said is trivial. If you interpret what you said broadly enough for it to be not tautological, as I did, then you were proven wrong. If I were you I would have given what I wrote more credit but hey as I said it is your reputation at stake against mine. As it is it seems that you made an empty 10M guarantee, which now you should probably reword to "Prove me wrong and get 10M or insults, the choice of what you get is up to me."
Rthor	Posted - 2004.10.15 21:24:00 - [80] Anyway, what makes you so sure that you are right? What if I am "remarkably more schooled" in economics than you, what if what I just said is just standard advanced econ theory that you dont know, and what if what I said is just going well over your head? And what if then if all this is true then you proceed on flaming me and calling for uncalled for apology? And then your friends call me a troll. What I said has more meaning than anything that you have written. Why not learn and use it instead of remaining in your econ dark ages. If you construct what you said as narrowly as you want to construct it then what you said is trivial. If you interpret what you said broadly enough for it to be not tautological, as I did, then you were proven wrong. If I were you I would have given what I wrote more credit but hey as I said it is your reputation at stake against mine. As it is it seems that you made an empty 10M guarantee, which now you should probably reword to "Prove me wrong and get 10M or insults, the choice of what you get is up to me."
J'Maybe Keens	Posted - 2004.10.15 21:41:00 - [81] Edited by: J'Maybe Keens on 15/10/2004 21:53:58 Originally by: Rthor Anyway, what makes you so sure that you are right? What if I am "remarkably more schooled" in economics than you, what if what I just said is just standard advanced econ theory that you dont know, and what if what I said is just going well over your head? And what if then if all this is true then you proceed on flaming me and calling for uncalled for apology? And then your friends call me a troll. What I said has more meaning than anything that you have written. Why not learn and use it instead of remaining in your econ dark ages. If you construct what you said as narrowly as you want to construct it then what you said is trivial. If you interpret what you said broadly enough for it to be not tautological, as I did, then you were proven wrong. If I were you I would have given what I wrote more credit but hey as I said it is your reputation at stake against mine. As it is it seems that you made an empty 10M guarantee, which now you should probably reword to "Prove me wrong and get 10M or insults, the choice of what you get is up to me." you are beginning to look very very silly now and while I am not going to get into a conversation about which one of us might have more economic education under their belt. I've put 10million down on the basis i have. if you want to match my 10million isk and give it to me when finally you understand you are wrong that would be a good start. as i said "i have put my isk where my ego is" now stop throwing the cheap insults and put up some isk, talk is cheap. ******** AUTHOR of the COMPLETE mineral and ore Price guide, updated weekly, see Eve Guardian for details
J'Maybe Keens	Posted - 2004.10.15 21:41:00 - [82] Edited by: J'Maybe Keens on 15/10/2004 21:53:58 Originally by: Rthor Anyway, what makes you so sure that you are right? What if I am "remarkably more schooled" in economics than you, what if what I just said is just standard advanced econ theory that you dont know, and what if what I said is just going well over your head? And what if then if all this is true then you proceed on flaming me and calling for uncalled for apology? And then your friends call me a troll. What I said has more meaning than anything that you have written. Why not learn and use it instead of remaining in your econ dark ages. If you construct what you said as narrowly as you want to construct it then what you said is trivial. If you interpret what you said broadly enough for it to be not tautological, as I did, then you were proven wrong. If I were you I would have given what I wrote more credit but hey as I said it is your reputation at stake against mine. As it is it seems that you made an empty 10M guarantee, which now you should probably reword to "Prove me wrong and get 10M or insults, the choice of what you get is up to me." you are beginning to look very very silly now and while I am not going to get into a conversation about which one of us might have more economic education under their belt. I've put 10million down on the basis i have. if you want to match my 10million isk and give it to me when finally you understand you are wrong that would be a good start. as i said "i have put my isk where my ego is" now stop throwing the cheap insults and put up some isk, talk is cheap. ******** AUTHOR of the COMPLETE mineral and ore Price guide, updated weekly, see Eve Guardian for details
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2004.10.15 21:54:00 - [83] Originally by: Rthor Anyway, what makes you so sure that you are right? What if I am "remarkably more schooled" in economics than you, what if what I just said is just standard advanced econ theory that you dont know, and what if what I said is just going well over your head? And what if then if all this is true then you proceed on flaming me and calling for uncalled for apology? And then your friends call me a troll. LOL... I am not his friend. I am the Chief Editor of Eve Guardian. I am the one who rejects or approves all articles on Eve Guardian. This one was rejected once, for in character perspective, but was utterly approved for the contents. And I did not call you a troll. I offered you the choice of substantiating yourself or be known as a troll. But then you'd rather not acknowledge reality would you?
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2004.10.15 21:54:00 - [84] Originally by: Rthor Anyway, what makes you so sure that you are right? What if I am "remarkably more schooled" in economics than you, what if what I just said is just standard advanced econ theory that you dont know, and what if what I said is just going well over your head? And what if then if all this is true then you proceed on flaming me and calling for uncalled for apology? And then your friends call me a troll. LOL... I am not his friend. I am the Chief Editor of Eve Guardian. I am the one who rejects or approves all articles on Eve Guardian. This one was rejected once, for in character perspective, but was utterly approved for the contents. And I did not call you a troll. I offered you the choice of substantiating yourself or be known as a troll. But then you'd rather not acknowledge reality would you?
Rthor	Posted - 2004.10.15 22:06:00 - [85] I rest my case.
Rthor	Posted - 2004.10.15 22:06:00 - [86] I rest my case.
J'Maybe Keens	Posted - 2004.10.15 22:11:00 - [87] thought you might when i suggested you put some isk where your mouth is. ******** AUTHOR of the COMPLETE mineral and ore Price guide, updated weekly, see Eve Guardian for details
J'Maybe Keens	Posted - 2004.10.15 22:11:00 - [88] thought you might when i suggested you put some isk where your mouth is. ******** AUTHOR of the COMPLETE mineral and ore Price guide, updated weekly, see Eve Guardian for details
Rthor	Posted - 2004.10.15 22:20:00 - [89] Are you like a bully economist?
Rthor	Posted - 2004.10.15 22:20:00 - [90] Are you like a bully economist?

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