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J'Maybe Keens
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Posted - 2004.10.15 22:23:00 -
[91]
no in this instance i am like a correct economist.
********
AUTHOR of the COMPLETE mineral and ore Price guide, updated weekly, see Eve Guardian for details
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J'Maybe Keens
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Posted - 2004.10.15 22:23:00 -
[92]
no in this instance i am like a correct economist.
********
AUTHOR of the COMPLETE mineral and ore Price guide, updated weekly, see Eve Guardian for details
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Rthor
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Posted - 2004.10.15 22:24:00 -
[93]
On the other hand I knew I detected something bovine about you.
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Rthor
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Posted - 2004.10.15 22:24:00 -
[94]
On the other hand I knew I detected something bovine about you.
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J'Maybe Keens
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Posted - 2004.10.15 22:28:00 -
[95]
Edited by: J'Maybe Keens on 15/10/2004 22:31:48
that i suspect is the bit of bull**** you seem to have hanging off your chin. Now if you have nothing to add to a decent debate but this rubbish, go play somewhere else, you dont win this one.
Write your apology and move on
********
AUTHOR of the COMPLETE mineral and ore Price guide, updated weekly, see Eve Guardian for details
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J'Maybe Keens
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Posted - 2004.10.15 22:28:00 -
[96]
Edited by: J'Maybe Keens on 15/10/2004 22:31:48
that i suspect is the bit of bull**** you seem to have hanging off your chin. Now if you have nothing to add to a decent debate but this rubbish, go play somewhere else, you dont win this one.
Write your apology and move on
********
AUTHOR of the COMPLETE mineral and ore Price guide, updated weekly, see Eve Guardian for details
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Rthor
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Posted - 2004.10.15 22:35:00 -
[97]
Maybe next time you give the 10M challenge you should escrow that money to someone neutral. This way you ensure that the challenge can be won, and it would erase doubts that you actually have the 10M.
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Rthor
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Posted - 2004.10.15 22:35:00 -
[98]
Maybe next time you give the 10M challenge you should escrow that money to someone neutral. This way you ensure that the challenge can be won, and it would erase doubts that you actually have the 10M.
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J'Maybe Keens
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Posted - 2004.10.15 22:39:00 -
[99]
okay let me restate the problem for you:
I am going to try one last time with this for your benefit, read the following carefully.
ISK - isk is the stuff that appears in your balance of your wallet, everything else is something else.
Now lets set up 2 players.
Player A has 1000 isk
Player B has 1000 isk
That is 2000 isk in total.
Now show me how when they trade amongst themselves without any NPC or outside interaction when they open their wallet and look at their ISK balance they have more than 2000ISK in total.
When you have done that I will give you 10million isk.
You claim to have done it, so just repeat the exercise now and make me look the total fool you think I am.
********
AUTHOR of the COMPLETE mineral and ore Price guide, updated weekly, see Eve Guardian for details
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J'Maybe Keens
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Posted - 2004.10.15 22:39:00 -
[100]
okay let me restate the problem for you:
I am going to try one last time with this for your benefit, read the following carefully.
ISK - isk is the stuff that appears in your balance of your wallet, everything else is something else.
Now lets set up 2 players.
Player A has 1000 isk
Player B has 1000 isk
That is 2000 isk in total.
Now show me how when they trade amongst themselves without any NPC or outside interaction when they open their wallet and look at their ISK balance they have more than 2000ISK in total.
When you have done that I will give you 10million isk.
You claim to have done it, so just repeat the exercise now and make me look the total fool you think I am.
********
AUTHOR of the COMPLETE mineral and ore Price guide, updated weekly, see Eve Guardian for details
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Rthor
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Posted - 2004.10.15 22:41:00 -
[101]
I rested my economics case. Your example is trivial. It contributes nothing new to knowledge.
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Rthor
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Posted - 2004.10.15 22:41:00 -
[102]
I rested my economics case. Your example is trivial. It contributes nothing new to knowledge.
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J'Maybe Keens
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Posted - 2004.10.15 22:47:00 -
[103]
Edited by: J'Maybe Keens on 15/10/2004 23:21:29
i think you will find some people found they did learn something from reading the article and giving it some thought.
And as to the fact I have not created a new general theory of economics for you, the fact "simple" was in the title of the article might have given you a clue. I am afraid you are going to find that you are not going to create any new economics in your entire life, if you are expecting me to do that for you for Eve you have misunderstood what I intend to do.
You have had two goes at solving the problem and proven yourself incapable of doing so.
And now strut about claiming I am witholding 10million isk from you.
Such behaviour is partially why I do not post on these forums.
However you are free to write for Eve Guardian yourself, those revolutionary economic ideas you speak of that sail so high above my head might be of interest to some people.
********
AUTHOR of the COMPLETE mineral and ore Price guide, updated weekly, see Eve Guardian for details
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J'Maybe Keens
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Posted - 2004.10.15 22:47:00 -
[104]
Edited by: J'Maybe Keens on 15/10/2004 23:21:29
i think you will find some people found they did learn something from reading the article and giving it some thought.
And as to the fact I have not created a new general theory of economics for you, the fact "simple" was in the title of the article might have given you a clue. I am afraid you are going to find that you are not going to create any new economics in your entire life, if you are expecting me to do that for you for Eve you have misunderstood what I intend to do.
You have had two goes at solving the problem and proven yourself incapable of doing so.
And now strut about claiming I am witholding 10million isk from you.
Such behaviour is partially why I do not post on these forums.
However you are free to write for Eve Guardian yourself, those revolutionary economic ideas you speak of that sail so high above my head might be of interest to some people.
********
AUTHOR of the COMPLETE mineral and ore Price guide, updated weekly, see Eve Guardian for details
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Lacero Callrisian
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Posted - 2004.10.16 00:51:00 -
[105]
Your very first post confuses wealth and money Rthor, you've no business commenting on anyones economics skills let alone doing it so rudely.
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Lacero Callrisian
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Posted - 2004.10.16 00:51:00 -
[106]
Your very first post confuses wealth and money Rthor, you've no business commenting on anyones economics skills let alone doing it so rudely.
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Kaladryn
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Posted - 2004.10.16 10:59:00 -
[107]
Two things to further confuse the issue, although the original poster is correct:
Player interaction can cause more isk to be made from NPCs than the two players could make one thier own.
"Isk" and "Wealth" are two differen't things, sure one player can make another "wealthy" but he can't create isk obviously...
Kaladryn |
Kaladryn
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Posted - 2004.10.16 10:59:00 -
[108]
Two things to further confuse the issue, although the original poster is correct:
Player interaction can cause more isk to be made from NPCs than the two players could make one thier own.
"Isk" and "Wealth" are two differen't things, sure one player can make another "wealthy" but he can't create isk obviously...
Kaladryn |
J'Maybe Keens
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Posted - 2004.10.16 11:04:00 -
[109]
Okay a clarification:
we have strayed from the original intention of the article I wrote in Eve Guardian which was just to create a simple listing of how ISK flows both in and out of EVE, with examples.
There has been a lot of talk about ISK sinks etc etc and repeatedly people talk about the destruction of ships being an ISK sink, in fact it is one of the quickest ways to introduce ISK into the economy.
Others imagine mining is the way in which isk comes into the game. It does not, it is all but ISK neutral, it will only create ISK if it is sold to NPCs and that does not happen to often.
While people continue to do this, it is likely some people might learn something (however simple it appears to others) by reading the article.
Agent ISK rewards bring isk into the game (the modules they give out do not while they are traded amongst themselves.)
It also means if CCP decided to give us all a BS BPO tomorrow they have not actually introduced any ISK into the game. NPCs do not buy BPOs. CCP may well reduce the outflow of ISK (it flows out everytime someone buys a BPO from an NPC) by giving everyone a BS BPO.
It was an observation as simple as that, no trick, no great new economic theory is being discussed, I am not in line for a Nobel Prize for Economics because of it, I was simply writing an in character piece for Eve Guardian. The article remains on EG along with a lot of other stuff I have written for you all to read.
The reason I did not reference any economist that have gone before me is because "in character" as far as I know there are not any.
I am not writing tablets of stone to be passed down to you, it is why I did not continue smashing on with the analysis in the article, I left lots open for other people to think about if they wished.
The intention is to expand upon this article in future articles in EG, but I wanted to get this out of the way first so at least the ground work had been done.
The 10million was put up simply to generate some interest in an essentially tedious topic and indeed the whole fact that EG is running a number of articles based on Eve economics which might interest some people, but because they do not know it exists have not read it.
The person that pointed out NPCs buy Mex at higher prices than players do, is 5million isk better off for doing so (I paid him the day he told me). I did not have to pay him, he did not prove me wrong, but it was something i did not know and given he was the first to tell me he got 5million isk i did not have to give him.
I am glad the vast bulk of the replies were from people thinking about the article and making observations about it.
Unfortunately there was one drunk at the party that did get a little out of hand, but he will sober up and learn from his mistakes. At EG we are still waiting for that particular person to either :
1. Apologise
2. Prove himself correct and me wrong.
From his attitude and economic competence I expect hell to freeze over first, but I am a patient type.
********
AUTHOR of the COMPLETE mineral and ore Price guide, updated weekly, see Eve Guardian for details
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J'Maybe Keens
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Posted - 2004.10.16 11:04:00 -
[110]
Okay a clarification:
we have strayed from the original intention of the article I wrote in Eve Guardian which was just to create a simple listing of how ISK flows both in and out of EVE, with examples.
There has been a lot of talk about ISK sinks etc etc and repeatedly people talk about the destruction of ships being an ISK sink, in fact it is one of the quickest ways to introduce ISK into the economy.
Others imagine mining is the way in which isk comes into the game. It does not, it is all but ISK neutral, it will only create ISK if it is sold to NPCs and that does not happen to often.
While people continue to do this, it is likely some people might learn something (however simple it appears to others) by reading the article.
Agent ISK rewards bring isk into the game (the modules they give out do not while they are traded amongst themselves.)
It also means if CCP decided to give us all a BS BPO tomorrow they have not actually introduced any ISK into the game. NPCs do not buy BPOs. CCP may well reduce the outflow of ISK (it flows out everytime someone buys a BPO from an NPC) by giving everyone a BS BPO.
It was an observation as simple as that, no trick, no great new economic theory is being discussed, I am not in line for a Nobel Prize for Economics because of it, I was simply writing an in character piece for Eve Guardian. The article remains on EG along with a lot of other stuff I have written for you all to read.
The reason I did not reference any economist that have gone before me is because "in character" as far as I know there are not any.
I am not writing tablets of stone to be passed down to you, it is why I did not continue smashing on with the analysis in the article, I left lots open for other people to think about if they wished.
The intention is to expand upon this article in future articles in EG, but I wanted to get this out of the way first so at least the ground work had been done.
The 10million was put up simply to generate some interest in an essentially tedious topic and indeed the whole fact that EG is running a number of articles based on Eve economics which might interest some people, but because they do not know it exists have not read it.
The person that pointed out NPCs buy Mex at higher prices than players do, is 5million isk better off for doing so (I paid him the day he told me). I did not have to pay him, he did not prove me wrong, but it was something i did not know and given he was the first to tell me he got 5million isk i did not have to give him.
I am glad the vast bulk of the replies were from people thinking about the article and making observations about it.
Unfortunately there was one drunk at the party that did get a little out of hand, but he will sober up and learn from his mistakes. At EG we are still waiting for that particular person to either :
1. Apologise
2. Prove himself correct and me wrong.
From his attitude and economic competence I expect hell to freeze over first, but I am a patient type.
********
AUTHOR of the COMPLETE mineral and ore Price guide, updated weekly, see Eve Guardian for details
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Sleepy Dane
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Posted - 2004.10.16 17:46:00 -
[111]
 Originally by: J'Maybe Keens
Only by Player, NPC interaction can isk be introduced or removed from the the "visible economy".
The visible economy being the stuff we can actually see within the game.
and 10 million to prove that wrong???
you start with cash to start with your character....cant remember if it is 100K or 250K or whatever..........and you can see it (in the wallet ofcourse)
10mill
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Sleepy Dane
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Posted - 2004.10.16 17:46:00 -
[112]
Originally by: J'Maybe Keens
Only by Player, NPC interaction can isk be introduced or removed from the the "visible economy".
The visible economy being the stuff we can actually see within the game.
and 10 million to prove that wrong???
you start with cash to start with your character....cant remember if it is 100K or 250K or whatever..........and you can see it (in the wallet ofcourse)
10mill
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J'Maybe Keens
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Posted - 2004.10.16 17:49:00 -
[113]
no, and read the thread to find out why.
********
AUTHOR of the COMPLETE mineral and ore Price guide, updated weekly, see Eve Guardian for details
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J'Maybe Keens
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Posted - 2004.10.16 17:49:00 -
[114]
no, and read the thread to find out why.
********
AUTHOR of the COMPLETE mineral and ore Price guide, updated weekly, see Eve Guardian for details
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Sleepy Dane
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Posted - 2004.10.16 21:18:00 -
[115]
Originally by: J'Maybe Keens
i recently wrote an article on Eve Guardian, basically it is a simple isk flow model within Eve.
It has caused some argument.
The basic problem being, it says no ISK at all is introduced into EVE by player to player transactions. Only by Player, NPC interaction can isk be introduced or removed from the the "visible economy".
The visible economy being the stuff we can actually see within the game.
Anyway, there seems to be plenty of people prepared to argue I am wrong.
For full details of how proving me wrong can earn you 10million isk read the article and have a look at the competition details.
The article is at EVE Guardian
Im reading........you say that only via player-NPC interaction and some form of NPC-hoarding / trade-like playing it is possible to bring in new cash.............and.........you dont include starting-cash. Everyone has gotten a social-check in real-life, thats the start-cash. Its in your account when you start, and is a part of your economy.
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Sleepy Dane
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Posted - 2004.10.16 21:18:00 -
[116]
Originally by: J'Maybe Keens
i recently wrote an article on Eve Guardian, basically it is a simple isk flow model within Eve.
It has caused some argument.
The basic problem being, it says no ISK at all is introduced into EVE by player to player transactions. Only by Player, NPC interaction can isk be introduced or removed from the the "visible economy".
The visible economy being the stuff we can actually see within the game.
Anyway, there seems to be plenty of people prepared to argue I am wrong.
For full details of how proving me wrong can earn you 10million isk read the article and have a look at the competition details.
The article is at EVE Guardian
Im reading........you say that only via player-NPC interaction and some form of NPC-hoarding / trade-like playing it is possible to bring in new cash.............and.........you dont include starting-cash. Everyone has gotten a social-check in real-life, thats the start-cash. Its in your account when you start, and is a part of your economy.
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J'Maybe Keens
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Posted - 2004.10.16 21:30:00 -
[117]
Edited by: J'Maybe Keens on 16/10/2004 21:36:50
i dont include a lot of things it is not meant to be comprehensive, you'd still be reading the thing next week i suspect if that was attempted and it would not change the basic analysis.
It is called "SIMPLE".
if you wish to write the complex version for EG be my guest.
The starting funds are quite obviously given to you by NPCs.
No player has ever had ISK removed from their account because another player has started the game.
If the ISK does not come from a player you are going to have to assume it has come from an NPC in some manner, it is just the way it is. That has been answered two or three times on this thread.
********
AUTHOR of the COMPLETE mineral and ore Price guide, updated weekly, see Eve Guardian for details
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J'Maybe Keens
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Posted - 2004.10.16 21:30:00 -
[118]
Edited by: J'Maybe Keens on 16/10/2004 21:36:50
i dont include a lot of things it is not meant to be comprehensive, you'd still be reading the thing next week i suspect if that was attempted and it would not change the basic analysis.
It is called "SIMPLE".
if you wish to write the complex version for EG be my guest.
The starting funds are quite obviously given to you by NPCs.
No player has ever had ISK removed from their account because another player has started the game.
If the ISK does not come from a player you are going to have to assume it has come from an NPC in some manner, it is just the way it is. That has been answered two or three times on this thread.
********
AUTHOR of the COMPLETE mineral and ore Price guide, updated weekly, see Eve Guardian for details
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Sanften Berg
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Posted - 2004.10.16 21:34:00 -
[119]
Each player gets 1,000 ISK on creation. If they give that ISK to another player, then log out, delete, and remake their character, they are putting money into the universe through player->player trading.
I believe that is the one thing you left out.
You may send the 10million ISK to Sanften Berg.
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Sanften Berg
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Posted - 2004.10.16 21:34:00 -
[120]
Each player gets 1,000 ISK on creation. If they give that ISK to another player, then log out, delete, and remake their character, they are putting money into the universe through player->player trading.
I believe that is the one thing you left out.
You may send the 10million ISK to Sanften Berg.
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