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Sistar2
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2009.08.27 06:18:00 -
[1]
An old topic, isn't it? The complaints about how autistic people on mescalin are constantly 0.01 isking your buy or sell orders in the trading hubs. There was this great thread here recently with all sort of tips on how to react to this (but "react" in a defensive sort of way).
I have a much better idea though. Starting today, I am creating a loose "Traders Union" as you might call it. This will be open for anyone interested, who trades a good deal in the hubs, and is not a very nasty person. There will be screening. As for myself, I station trade in the 3 major hubs, and I update my orders 8-10 times a day. Chances are you already think I am a very nasty person, but I am offering to stop that.
The union works miraculously simple: all you have to do is join our common chatroom and agree to not purposefully undercutting your fellow union members. For easy recognition you pick a signature number to include in all your orders. Don't worry, the idea is absolutely NOT that you start disclosing to anyone where you are seeing good trade deals! There is no pressure for anything like that, all this is is giving you an opportunity to know the persons that you see underbidding you, and sort it out with them immediately. You are not even obliged to always use your signature, it's really up to you. You will find it is a win-win situation.
In conclusion, this might not end ALL bidding wars, but will definitely make power trading easier for those who join.
tl; dr: hook up Cista2 or Sistar2 in game and start enjoying life more.
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Nemi Lethal
Gallente DarkStar Armada One Stop Research
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Posted - 2009.08.27 06:23:00 -
[2]
Ill check it out, If anything it would be great to talk to some of the people that I probably make scream at their monitors on a daily basis.
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Nihn Lemai
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Posted - 2009.08.27 06:25:00 -
[3]
What, so we unanimously decide what a certain item should be priced and no one is allowed to sell it for less? Or how would the "agree to not purposefully undercut" part work?
Sorry, I really cant see this working. But if it did, I would move to the new stable Jita at once, putting up cheaper orders and enjoy passive trading of huge turnover.
Nice try though.
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Nemi Lethal
Gallente DarkStar Armada One Stop Research
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Posted - 2009.08.27 06:48:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Nihn Lemai What, so we unanimously decide what a certain item should be priced and no one is allowed to sell it for less? Or how would the "agree to not purposefully undercut" part work?
Sorry, I really cant see this working. But if it did, I would move to the new stable Jita at once, putting up cheaper orders and enjoy passive trading of huge turnover.
Nice try though.
It might not translate into much of an edge trading wise, but it would still be fun to talk to the people in jita currently all up in your buisness.
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Sistar2
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2009.08.27 06:52:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Nihn Lemai What, so we unanimously decide what a certain item should be priced and no one is allowed to sell it for less?
No, not at all, there is no such cooporation implied. The only function of this club is that members that see other members' orders on the market can choose to talk to them about it, instead of starting a price war. The two members can agree to split some orders between them, but it's on a wholly voluntary and individualistic basic.
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Tesal
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Posted - 2009.08.27 07:20:00 -
[6]
Can my alt afdsklarhjewie join?
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Emily Spankratchet
Minmatar Pragmatics
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Posted - 2009.08.27 07:33:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Sistar2 For easy recognition you pick a signature number to include in all your orders.
Whenever I see somebody using a signature in their orders, I start copying it.
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Sistar2
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2009.08.27 07:38:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Emily Spankratchet Whenever I see somebody using a signature in their orders, I start copying it.
Yes, I've seen that. It doesn't bother people as much as you probably hope
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Emily Spankratchet
Minmatar Pragmatics
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Posted - 2009.08.27 07:42:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Emily Spankratchet on 27/08/2009 07:44:30
Originally by: Sistar2 Yes, I've seen that. It doesn't bother people as much as you probably hope
I know I still can't stop myself, though.
Edit: And in this case, of course, the inability to see who places an order would mean that it did annoy people. There's no way to make this sort of cartel work unless they have a central record of which orders have been placed by each member. And with the level of undercutting that goes on generally, that record would never be up-to-date. But we all knew it was a silly idea anyway.
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Kahetha's Syster
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Posted - 2009.08.27 08:01:00 -
[10]
I would really like to see something like this to work.
I have thought up some similar ideas myself. Soemthing like serious trades and manufacturers dealing with/in a certain area/item/product get together and agree on prices to make it so that everyone gets their stuff sold and not just the dude who can be botherd with fixing his orders 5 times and hour. And when the funny guys that undercut by 20%+ show up they can all buy it out together if it's a large order to spread the risk and so on.
Hawing said that though, I just don't see it. I don't see more than like 3 people in the whole of eve agreeing to anything like this.
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Sistar2
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2009.08.27 08:17:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Sistar2 on 27/08/2009 08:18:38
Originally by: Emily Spankratchet And in this case, of course, the inability to see who places an order would mean that it did annoy people.
Clever girl, you correctly spotted a weakness that i hoped would not be brought to the thread lol. You could pick up my signature and go all around the market with it. However, it would only annoy us if there was a succesful "us" to begin with. In other words, you can only parasitise on our system if our system yields us good isk. If it does that, then of course there will be parasites, and we will have to counter that.
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Sistar2
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2009.08.27 08:21:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Kahetha's Syster
Hawing said that though, I just don't see it. I don't see more than like 3 people in the whole of eve agreeing to anything like this.
Your ideas are good, but I have to agree with you that it is difficult to carry out. Which is why in my union there is no attempt to control the market - just trying to make life a little easier for ourselves.
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Poreuomai
Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.08.27 09:17:00 -
[13]
If someone dumps 100,000 units of widgets on the market then what do you do ? Wait until they have sold all their widgets?
Let My People Go |
Sistar2
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2009.08.27 10:10:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Poreuomai If someone dumps 100,000 units of widgets on the market then what do you do ? Wait until they have sold all their widgets?
Hey, not sure what you mean here. My opening statement was maybe a little unclear. It's not like we're not going to 0.01 isk the crap out of EVERYBODY ELSE, we will If that "someone" is one of us then we have the possibility to make some sort of deal, but that's completely up to the two traders involved, there are no rules forced on you.
It's not rocket science really. Already when the first guy joined the room today we realised that we have been competing on certain items even this week. So there's already a positive effect.
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Poreuomai
Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.08.27 10:23:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Sistar2 It's not like we're not going to 0.01 isk the crap out of EVERYBODY ELSE, we will
I see
Let My People Go |
Magnu Stormhawk
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Posted - 2009.08.27 10:54:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Sistar2
It's not rocket science really. Already when the first guy joined the room today we realised that we have been competing on certain items even this week. So there's already a positive effect.
Ok, so you established that you are competing with someone. Woot. What was the resolution you came to with this guy?
I'm interested to see how this can work out. At the moment it looks like a chat room for traders. Not a bad idea in itself, but some examples of a positive outcome for two competing parties would be more interesting.
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Sistar2
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2009.08.27 11:11:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Magnu Stormhawk some examples of a positive outcome for two competing parties would be more interesting.
It's just starting today - the results will come automatically if the people that join us will be cool with the concept.
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Pha3drus
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Posted - 2009.08.27 11:59:00 -
[18]
Recently I have been having the same idea and I think that it could work quite well, certianly in smaller trade hubs. It would also mean that you would find out who is selling what which would give rise to much better market coverage and allow you to fill in the gaps and incease your trade.
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Brock Nelson
Caldari Flux Technologies Inc
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Posted - 2009.08.27 13:52:00 -
[19]
I chuckled
Anytime you guys think you've muscled a item's price to where you want them, I'm just gonna undercut you and so can thousands of other traders.
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Hoo Is
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Posted - 2009.08.27 14:06:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Brock Nelson I chuckled
Anytime you guys think you've muscled a item's price to where you want them, I'm just gonna undercut you and so can thousands of other traders.
You didn't want that profit anyway ---- a reply which adds nothing to a thread or results in a thread being bumped with no new discussion worthy content is considered spam and as such warrants a forum ban |
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Cpt Steo
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Posted - 2009.08.27 14:18:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Emily Spankratchet
Originally by: Sistar2 For easy recognition you pick a signature number to include in all your orders.
Whenever I see somebody using a signature in their orders, I start copying it.
This ^^
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Traska Gannel
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Posted - 2009.08.27 14:38:00 -
[22]
Hi Sistar2,
Up until a couple of weeks ago I was actively trading quite a lot on buy orders for a wide variety of items in Jita. (However, station trading is the most BORING :) (IMHO) EVE activity I've come across yet ... though I made a modest 3 billion in 3 months at an average of less than an hour a day).
The biggest problem I see with your idea is markets. At the peak I had over 80 buy orders out. I also actively sold items to my competitors buy orders to find out who they were. There were several items that would make your plan problematic:
1) Although there was some significant overlap between the items I was buying and other people - there were several sections of the 80 buy orders with different competitors. One person might have been competing on 10 items, someone else on 20 others that only overlapped with the first person for a few items. In the end I had added about 30 characters to my address book of those who were regularly competing.
2) There was significant turn over of competition in the 3 months. Typical active competition seemed to average about a month for some people. This constant turn over in competition all on different items makes it even more difficult for your plan to work.
3) There are many distinct markets - each with different goals and different competition.
A) T1 modules - common mission loot - these are typically high to very high volume. Most of these, particularly the large ones, are purchased by industrialists for their mineral value. Almost all of these sell at mineral value +/- 2k isk.
B) Low meta level modules - uncommon mission loot - these are low to medium volume both for sell and buy orders. No one really wants them to fit a ship unless desparate. Profit can be made here by purchasing for below reprocess value and selling the minerals. I've seen several people operate in this market by buying and then placing sell orders ... typically this would take forever to sell through the supply. However, if the seller happens to reduce their price to ~10k isk below the reprocess value - someone will come along and buy them all up for the quick profit. I made 15 million isk in 5 minutes picking up 2500 Infiltrator I drones which were selling for 6k below reprocess value. At the time the buy market price was about 9k below reprocess - as a result the seller made about 7.5 million while I made the rest ... though these deals are rare - and it would have taken a very long time to sell those drones above the reprocess value.
C) High meta level modules - rare mission loot - low to very low quantities - both buy and sell are above reprocess. These markets can be very competitive but there is often a 20 to 40% spread between buy and sell on which to make a profit. However, these markets are also much more susceptible to manipulation.
D) T2 modules - all player made - the only below manufacturing cost sales come from players selling off modules they don't need. I think this market is probably dominated by manufacturers but there is still probably a little profit to be made in the resale market but I would expect resale volume to be small.
E) T1 ships - low to very low buy volume. Price is again likely dominated by manufacturers. However, there are some deals where either the buy price or someone putting up a sell order is below reprocess value. This changes rapidly however.
F) Implants and Boosters
G) Ammo
...
As you can see I spent most of my time trading in modules :) ... but there are so many items to trade in where a profit can be made that I don't think you'll find enough people operating in the same markets to make your idea work.
Good luck with your idea ... a trading club just to have someone to talk with while you update your orders might be fun ... there might also be some useful tidbits like those I mentioned above ... but overall, I found that typically there were anywhere from 0 to 10 other people trading in the same items as I was.
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Dzil
Caldari Halo Industries
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Posted - 2009.08.27 14:46:00 -
[23]
I'm also ending PVP in EVE. People, stop shooting each other.
There, that outta do it.
Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m |
Traska Gannel
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Posted - 2009.08.27 14:51:00 -
[24]
One more issue :)
The existence of market macros may be a significant issue with this plan since someone using a macro does not care. I was dubious about the existence of macros until I ran across one player who was either a fanatic about their orders - or was a bot.
Why do I say this?
Here was what I observed: What are the odds that someone increments each and every buy order they have out by exactly 1% of the current high price (to the nearest 0.01 ISK) ... each and every time they update their orders across a set of at least 10 different modules (I observed this for about 10 different modules and verified that the same player was setting the orders in at least 4 of them over a period of a couple of weeks). It is always possible that the player involved was just pedantic to the extreme and didn't mind typing in all the numbers every time and updating their buy order price to the new value without making a mistake every time ... on the other hand, it could have been a bot.
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Dzil
Caldari Halo Industries
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Posted - 2009.08.27 15:55:00 -
[25]
Quote: What are the odds that someone increments each and every buy order they have out by exactly 1% of the current high price ...
Well, if those odds are greater than 1 : 300,000, then it's likely you'll see the behavior.
Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m |
James Tundra
Gallente Tash-Murkon Prime Industries
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Posted - 2009.08.27 15:56:00 -
[26]
I would like to join this fund, and would be willing to offer it funding for the next 6-7 months interest free.
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small chimp
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Posted - 2009.08.27 16:25:00 -
[27]
T2 resale market can be actually quite profitable.
People actually clean up their hangars suprisingly much and sometimes people even sell bigger stacks to sell orders.
In major hubs the profit margin can be pretty sleek but hauling them into minor hubs can give as good as 30-40% profit margin and little competition on sell orders. And there is no problem at all selling basic t2 mods in even smaller hubs.
I think i shouldnt have said this. :(
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Roguehalo
Caldari RH Ship Brokers
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Posted - 2009.08.27 16:41:00 -
[28]
Maybe we could extend this idea to pvp. If only people would stop shooting at each other nobody would lose anything.
Oh wait.....
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Casiella Truza
Ecliptic Rift
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Posted - 2009.08.29 00:19:00 -
[29]
No no no.
When you see somebody you want to shoot, instead just start a conversation with him, or talk to him in Local. See if you can't find a way to share the system and just shoot at everyone else instead.
Or have I misunderstood the idea here? -- EVE Blog EVE Twitter |
Removal Tool
Two Minutes Hate
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Posted - 2009.08.29 01:04:00 -
[30]
I'll see your thread and raise it by 0.1 isk.
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