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Metalcali
Dreams In Digital
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Posted - 2009.08.29 01:15:00 -
[31]
I never buy from people who are always changing the isk by .01 or even by 1k, I see it as just encouraging them more. Don't mind paying slightly more than the price warring traders 
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 Originally by: CCP Mitnal
Locked.
OP does not contain an idea.
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Removal Tool
Two Minutes Hate
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Posted - 2009.08.29 01:21:00 -
[32]
If you are buying in a market hub, you do not choose who you buy from, the lowest price does.
And if you try to buy from an order that is not the lowest price, you are still buying from the order that had the lowest price, but you are just paying the higher price and overpaying for the item.
Trust me on this.
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rubico1337
Caldari
Mnemonic Enterprises
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Posted - 2009.08.29 02:13:00 -
[33]
wouldnt a shrewd trader just copy you recognisable number, yet still undercut?
its an n person prisoners dilemma. therefore this will likely happen. and once everyone starts defecting, the institution will break down because there is no real way to tell the difference between someone who is abiding by the rule or exploiting it. therefore a loss in confidence and breakdown of the cartel, etc, etc.
Originally by: Lana Torrin
I'm getting pretty ****ed off with the supposedly hard core PvPers complaining about every little thing that gets changed. seriously, more tears than carebears.
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Rotnac
Caldari
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.08.29 04:07:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Metalcali
I never buy from people who are always changing the isk by .01 or even by 1k, I see it as just encouraging them more. Don't mind paying slightly more than the price warring traders
Thank you for giving me more than what my order is listed at.
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Sistar2
Solar Flames
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Posted - 2009.08.29 07:56:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Casiella Truza
When you see somebody you want to shoot, instead just start a conversation with him, or talk to him in Local. See if you can't find a way to share the system and just shoot at everyone else instead.
Or have I misunderstood the idea here?
You have it dead right. What you are describing is commonly known a "corp". What I am creating is a meta-corp for a group of traders (from different corps), fighting other traders. But the general principle is the same.
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Sistar2
Solar Flames
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Posted - 2009.08.29 08:08:00 -
[36]
Originally by: rubico1337
wouldnt a shrewd trader just copy you recognisable number, yet still undercut?
... and once everyone starts defecting, the institution will break down
This was also mentioned earlier. My answer is still the same: in order for anyone to "break down the institution", there first needs to be a succesful institution to break down. If someone is parasitising my signature, I must surely do something right.
This is purely hypothetical, but should it happen, the countermeasure is simply to change signature as often as necessary. The people that are in the group see the updated list of signatures as they log in. If people in the group abuse the system it's a challenge we will have to look into.
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Forge Lag
Jita Lag Preservation Fund
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Posted - 2009.08.29 12:08:00 -
[37]
And here I though you have some real advantage and want to make an announcement. But no, you are in the same position as everyone else, trading at the same price, given or taken 0,01 ISK.
You are competing with bots, playing on their turf, what do you expect?
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Sistar2
Solar Flames
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Posted - 2009.08.29 12:18:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Sistar2 on 29/08/2009 12:23:43
Originally by: Forge Lag
But no, you are in the same position as everyone else, trading at the same price, given or taken 0,01 ISK.
You are competing with bots, playing on their turf, what do you expect?
I am in the same position as everybody else, but I am better at it than most. One of the reasons is that I have initiative.
Incidentally, if there were bots operating I wouldn't be making the profit I am.
But this is not about me per se, this is about starting something new, a new form of cooperation that I believe is not currently present in the market theatre.
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Doomed Predator
The Graduates
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.08.29 12:52:00 -
[39]
You can't stop 0.01 isk wars.
And to the person who said that trading in T2 mods isn't profitable; you really don't have a clue do you?
The 'Fendahlian Collective' strikes again |
Casiella Truza
Ecliptic Rift
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Posted - 2009.08.29 14:20:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Metalcali
I never buy from people who are always changing the isk by .01 or even by 1k, I see it as just encouraging them more. Don't mind paying slightly more than the price warring traders
Heh. You actually still buy from the lowest seller, you're just giving him more than he asked.
So not only does your strategy fail to accomplish its objective, you actually help us out by increasing our margins slightly.
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EVE Blog
EVE Twitter |
Metalcali
Dreams In Digital
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Posted - 2009.08.30 00:37:00 -
[41]
Ah, well I learned something new, either way, hope you've enjoyed my 3k extra isk each sale 
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Originally by: CCP Mitnal
Locked.
OP does not contain an idea.
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Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
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Posted - 2009.08.30 01:44:00 -
[42]
It's called a cartel, it goes back to the start of history, and good luck making it happen with thousands of players on the market with zero market chokepoints. The effectively controllable items and markets in Eve already are controlled by cartel. For everything else, it's hopeless.
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rubico1337
Caldari
Mnemonic Enterprises
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Posted - 2009.08.30 08:48:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Sistar2
This was also mentioned earlier. My answer is still the same: in order for anyone to "break down the institution", there first needs to be a succesful institution to break down. If someone is parasitising my signature, I must surely do something right.
This is purely hypothetical, but should it happen, the countermeasure is simply to change signature as often as necessary. The people that are in the group see the updated list of signatures as they log in. If people in the group abuse the system it's a challenge we will have to look into.
what you are effectively proposing is a cartel, which will never work because of the high numbers of sellers and low entry costs of most eve items, and the inability to punish those who take advantage fo the cartel's price fixing. eve fundamentally promotes efficient markets. maybe you should read up on your basic economics before acting like you know what your talking about
Originally by: Lana Torrin
I'm getting pretty ****ed off with the supposedly hard core PvPers complaining about every little thing that gets changed. seriously, more tears than carebears.
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Sistar2
Solar Flames
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Posted - 2009.08.30 11:48:00 -
[44]
Originally by: rubico1337
...will never work because of ... inability to punish those who take advantage fo the cartel's price fixing
Once again, a slight misunderstanding. The ambition is not to fix market prices on any item. A succes will be simply if we can spend less time updating orders as a result of us not competing on the same orders any more.
And to update, we are now just about 5-6 people that have joined the room. We have seen absolutely no practical effect of us doing this yet, but are having a ball with trade discussions, sharing tips etc. We do know that 2 of us competed on orders just before the union was created, so no doubt we will see benefits in the future.
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rubico1337
Caldari
Mnemonic Enterprises
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Posted - 2009.08.30 13:24:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Sistar2
Originally by: rubico1337
...will never work because of ... inability to punish those who take advantage fo the cartel's price fixing
Once again, a slight misunderstanding. The ambition is not to fix market prices on any item. A succes will be simply if we can spend less time updating orders as a result of us not competing on the same orders any more.
by agreeing not to undercut people it is price fixing. pure and simple
Originally by: Lana Torrin
I'm getting pretty ****ed off with the supposedly hard core PvPers complaining about every little thing that gets changed. seriously, more tears than carebears.
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Sistar2
Solar Flames
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Posted - 2009.08.30 14:32:00 -
[46]
Originally by: rubico1337
by agreeing not to undercut people it is price fixing. pure and simple
Do you even trade on the market? Price fixing involves buying up any orders that go below your own, it's a tough challenge even in the smallest of market sectors. I do it routinely myself on a VERY small scale.
Price fixing is NOT what's on the table here with the creation of this union, but of course it is something that we could experiment with along the way
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Brother Papalazaru
Amarr
Brother Papalazaru Corp
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Posted - 2009.09.07 16:30:00 -
[47]
Sistar, you invited me to your chat room, and from the off I was very adverse to it, asking all sorts of questions like the ones above. From what I could tell, apart from the room being very quiet, it seems that only much newer players are joining.
I can't see many experienced traders joining up, apart from maybe checking what you've got up for sale and then moving in with an alt to take your profits, it's just another channel to divert attention, and the signature business makes you visible, and by being visible, you are more vulnerable if somebody wants to take YOU on at some market PvP.
You're group will be too small to make a difference, and there are too many traders to deal with. And too many pitfalls to your idea.
You could make it work better on a corp basis rather than meta-corp imo.
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Augeas
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Posted - 2009.09.07 17:00:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Augeas on 07/09/2009 17:00:11
I don't do 0.01 ISK wars.
I do 500k ISK wars.
Can I still join?
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Rhivre
Caldari
Built to Last
New Eden Retail Federation
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Posted - 2009.09.07 18:57:00 -
[49]
Well, I am in the channel...I dont do 0.01isk, nor 500k isk wars :)
Yes, there are some newer traders in there, and I am not sure this is a bad thing, much as I love the lounge, it can be a bit rough for asking for info in at times.
I have no aversion to newer traders, the more the merrier as far as I am concerned, and whilst the purpose of the channel (0.01isking) doesnt suit with my style of trading, networking is invaluable :)
But each to their own
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Gulnack
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.09.07 22:04:00 -
[50]
I like the idea of a traders meta-guild but this initiative can't work. It's not as though their are a handful of .01 isker's lurking in the shadows for you to combat. You are trying to alter market mechanics... everyone wants to buy/sell at the edge of the bid-ask spread. If someone is scooping you by .01 it's not simply because they are malitious it's because YOU didn't bid high enough or sell low enough for them to find no value in doing so. If you've ever watched the stock market from a traders desk this is exactly what the market makers do. The competition will not fade away until the bid-ask spread becomes too compressed for most people to tolerate and I don't see that happening anytime soon.
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Teras Menac
Gallente
Caldari POS Constructions Inc.
The Ancients.
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Posted - 2009.09.07 23:25:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Teras Menac on 07/09/2009 23:33:19
Edited by: Teras Menac on 07/09/2009 23:27:49
Solution in need of a problem.
People who hate .01 bidding wars are people who shouldn't be market trading. You either find ways around it, or you participate but why *****? The only reason trading is a profitable venture really is because of the bidding wars. The only way to stop it is to price everything at a low margin, which won't really work because it'll just end trading as a fun profession. People will stop being traders because there is no money to be made, and then the prices will go back up and people will get back in the game and it will start again.
I don't see why people believe there is some sort of ethical obligation for us to lower our prices and cut our profit by a percentage point every time we bid. That's just stupid. The 0.01 bidding wars serve a function and that function is to keep from killing the spread so that we can make a profit.
Sistar I think you need to look up Price Fixing on wikipedia, because you are talking about price fixing and only show that you have no f'ing clue what you're talking about by arguing with people that it's price fixing. Your cartel/trust would be highly illegal in real life because price fixing is anti-free market. Not that it isn't done, just that sometimes companies are smacked for it. Look up Standard Oil. You clearly need to read some very very very basic info to make this work. Your ignorance of basic vocabulary keeps me out of your chatroom.
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clixoras
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Posted - 2009.09.08 00:12:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Teras Menac
I don't see why people believe there is some sort of ethical obligation for us to lower our prices and cut our profit by a percentage point every time we bid. That's just stupid. The 0.01 bidding wars serve a function and that function is to keep from killing the spread so that we can make a profit.
 without 0.01 bidding you will still make a profit. It is not that the spread is so thin for almost all items.
I don't engage in 0.01, although i don't operate from Jita, if someone engages in this, i will just cut the spread until the bidding stops. Eventually others will leave the market and prices can go up/down again. In that regards there is indeed no change needed :)
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Jin Nib
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Posted - 2009.09.08 02:17:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Teras Menac
I don't see why people believe there is some sort of ethical obligation for us to lower our prices and cut our profit by a percentage point every time we bid. That's just stupid. The 0.01 bidding wars serve a function and that function is to keep from killing the spread so that we can make a profit.
For the same reason people think there is an ethical obligation to keep a nice margin for traders. Like we're all buddy buddy or something.
I don't particularly care if "we" make a profit or not. I care if I make one and only when making a profit is my goal.
-Jin Nib
Trading on behalf of Opera Noir since:
2009.03.02 03:53:00
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Sistar2
Native Freshfood
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Posted - 2009.09.08 06:13:00 -
[54]
DECLARATION:
I apologise sincerely for using humour in my thread title, I did not have any idea that doing this would cost such a shock among the community of the MD. It is clear to me now that after seing the title of the thread, few of the members of the forum have been able to read the actual post  wherein it is clearly stated that this initiative will not end all isk wars but make somewhat easier for you if you do participate in 0.01 isking.
So just to reiterate:
A) there is (as of yet) no intention of manipulating market prices to a certain level by using the combined forces of union members. This is not to say that members are not doing it, cause they certainly are every day.
B) There is no illusion of ending ALL 0.01 isk wars, just to cooperate wherever possible.
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Sistar2
Native Freshfood
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Posted - 2009.09.08 06:24:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Teras Menac
People who hate .01 bidding wars are people who shouldn't be market trading. You either find ways around it, or you participate but why b*itch?
Dear Teras, like most here, you are looking at this from the wrong end of the stick. I don't hate 0.01 isking, it's what I do for a living and I enjoy my living. The post, if you read it, was adressed to people who hate ME for doing it
... but more to the point, adressed to those who do it on a daily basis. Just because a method is succesfull doesn't mean you cannot add to that succes. So, rather than b*itch about others, I am the kind of person who takes initiative, which is what I have done here. See the difference?
But hey, thanks for bumping my thread...
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Rene Sauntier
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Posted - 2009.09.08 08:26:00 -
[56]
Laudable idea, ma'am. Unfortunately flawed. Business cartels only work with muscle to bump off the competition, whether this comes from guns (blow ups) or money (buy outs).
I would join your cartel if the option to fund a merc gate camp in everygate in Jita, which eliminates the people that undercut us existed. (bump outs)
imho buy outs blow ups and bump outs if this scale are infeasibly expensive.
Rene
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