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Snow Axe
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
423
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Posted - 2012.06.12 11:27:00 -
[91] - Quote
Yeah, how expensive - mods that cost a whole 10 million tops (MAPC II) on a T2 ship that costs several hundred million isk. Be reasonable guys!
Also really, expecting people to have fitting skills on a character that flies T2 ships? Come on, now! That's just downright ~silly~ |
X1376
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
0
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Posted - 2012.06.12 11:38:00 -
[92] - Quote
Simetraz wrote:You will find they don't sacrifice one little bit yield to mine in Null.
Now why do you think a high-sec miner should there sacrifice yield ? Null sec miner is not sacrificing tank as sacrifice his yield for the protection given by alliance, and believe me, in some communist like alliances they do not really own what they mine. :P
But do not worry! There are good news. Nobody is forbidding high-sec miners to form proper alliance and get bunch of guys protecting them actively. And hey! You can even hire some if you do not want to bother with alliance forming itself.
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Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
100
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Posted - 2012.06.12 13:05:00 -
[93] - Quote
Bossy Lady wrote:Simetraz wrote:FYI before you go talking about why a high-sec exhumer should sacrifice yield you might want to check with people that mine in 0.0.
You will find they don't sacrifice one little bit yield to mine in Null.
Now why do you think a high-sec miner should there sacrifice yield ?
Because the nullsec hulks organise with hundreds of fellow players, and usually have to pay refining taxes for the privilege as well. When you too put the effort into co-ordinating with a large group then you too will gain benefits from doing so.
+1
But that's what whiney-entitled miner guy doesn't get. A lot of high sec people (but by no means all) likewise don't get it.
We've had this same "discussion" with members of the so-called Incursion communities. We (I and others who were asking for high sec incursions to be balanced) were opposed to the idea of someone under concord protection making as much individual isk as someone in null PVEing (when one guy in a cloaky ship can come in and shut it all down).
Of course, they said "but you null sec people can do pve in null sec solo, why should we make less isk doing group pve", at which point we explained that, to be in null sec was already a group effort because , if it is safe, it's safe because PEOPLE (not concord) made it safe. Even solo ratting in an upgraded system is a "group activitey" because the group maintains it 23/7.
Yadda Yada, the point is that you are supposed to be able to do things in null (or low, or WHs) that you can't in High sec, because high sec has the built in trade off of automatic protection from (or at least consequences for) non-consensual pvp.
If you want to do "max yield mining", go to null sec and "Corp Up" for protection....OR do the same thing in high sec + tank your ship. It's really simple.
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Copine Callmeknau
Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
194
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Posted - 2012.06.12 13:31:00 -
[94] - Quote
Simetraz wrote:FYI before you go talking about why a high-sec exhumer should sacrifice yield you might want to check with people that mine in 0.0.
You will find they don't sacrifice one little bit yield to mine in Null.
Now why do you think a high-sec miner should there sacrifice yield ?
So move to null? There should be a rather awesome pic here |
Ana Vyr
Vyral Technologies
312
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Posted - 2012.06.12 13:42:00 -
[95] - Quote
Might as well fly a Covetor if you are going to do that. |
Kijo Rikki
Killboard Padding Services
78
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Posted - 2012.06.12 13:47:00 -
[96] - Quote
Copine Callmeknau wrote:Simetraz wrote:FYI before you go talking about why a high-sec exhumer should sacrifice yield you might want to check with people that mine in 0.0.
You will find they don't sacrifice one little bit yield to mine in Null.
Now why do you think a high-sec miner should there sacrifice yield ?
So move to null?
The difference being, of course, that out in null once your hulk is pointed its going to die tanked or not.
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FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
1740
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Posted - 2012.06.12 13:49:00 -
[97] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Expensive, couldn't fly it in a 50M SP industry alt I selected when I imported it in EFT (so it's also very SP demanding), requires +4% CPU even with all skills to V, actual tank is 32k. I prefer Rubyporto's fits by a large margin.
I'll agree that it's a good idea to avoid faction mods on a gank target like a hulk. Even if they're cheap, a ganker choosing between multiple tanked targets will pick you to get those faction mods on the killmail. But skills?
I have about 33 million SP right now. I can fly every T2 subcap except marauders, interdictors, and heavy interdictors. I can fly every flavor of T3 and have skills for 2/3 T2 large turret systems. I've cross-trained to use several T2 missiles as well. I have near-perfect shield AND armor tanking skills, both active and passive. I can scan, hack, and salvage with the best of them. I can also fly a hulk and have basic manufacturing skills.
A hulk pilot shouldn't be flying a hulk without basic fitting and defensive skills. If you're putting a 50M character in a hulk and CAN'T fit a basic tank, you deserve to lose that ship. It's time to put an end to CCP's war on piracy. Fight your own battles and stop asking CCP to do it for you. |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
1867
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Posted - 2012.06.12 14:00:00 -
[98] - Quote
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Expensive, couldn't fly it in a 50M SP industry alt I selected when I imported it in EFT (so it's also very SP demanding), requires +4% CPU even with all skills to V, actual tank is 32k. I prefer Rubyporto's fits by a large margin. I'll agree that it's a good idea to avoid faction mods on a gank target like a hulk. Even if they're cheap, a ganker choosing between multiple tanked targets will pick you to get those faction mods on the killmail. But skills? I have about 33 million SP right now. I can fly every T2 subcap except marauders, interdictors, and heavy interdictors. I can fly every flavor of T3 and have skills for 2/3 T2 large turret systems. I've cross-trained to use several T2 missiles as well. I have near-perfect shield AND armor tanking skills, both active and passive. I can scan, hack, and salvage with the best of them. I can also fly a hulk and have basic manufacturing skills. A hulk pilot shouldn't be flying a hulk without basic fitting and defensive skills. If you're putting a 50M character in a hulk and CAN'T fit a basic tank, you deserve to lose that ship.
But...but..but... why should I train fitting skills that don't improve my yield? This is EVE. -á Everybody Versus Everybody. |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
1741
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Posted - 2012.06.12 14:02:00 -
[99] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:But...but..but... why should I train fitting skills that don't improve my yield? Because YARRRRRR
Yield when ganked: 0
Yield when not ganked: >0 It's time to put an end to CCP's war on piracy. Fight your own battles and stop asking CCP to do it for you. |
Bossy Lady
Aliastra Gallente Federation
65
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Posted - 2012.06.12 14:09:00 -
[100] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:[Hulk, New Setup 2] Micro Auxiliary Power Core II Damage Control II
Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Dread Guristas Thermic Dissipation Field
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Mining Drone II x5
37k ehp against blasters but hey I guess 15% more yield is more important than surviving because CCP will make hisec safer for you right? Expensive, couldn't fly it in a 50M SP industry alt I selected when I imported it in EFT (so it's also very SP demanding), requires +4% CPU even with all skills to V, actual tank is 32k. I prefer Rubyporto's fits by a large margin.
It's not that "SP-demanding". I mean god forbid people who complain about the Hulk's tank be expected to train up shield tanking. Or that people who whine about how their hulk costs 300M yet they can't afford a PG implant or a Navy MAPC. (Or you can lose a few EHP and change one of the CDFEs to an ACR.)
He said 37k EHp vs Blasters - Hulks have T2 Gallente resists. That fit has 32k EHP vs omni damage. (Gang bonuses can add a fair bit on that, with a Warfare Link Tengu raising it to around 38k omni, if memory serves.)
EHP vs Blasters is relevent because Catalysts are the go-to cheap gank ship. Once you're past the threshold of dying to a single Cat, then you're in "specific target" territory; you'll only lose you Hulk if a gang decide to specifically target you rather than killing 2-3 other guys for the same effort.
EHP vs RF EMP Large is the next threshold; once you can survive 2 Tornado volleys, then you can make it uneconomic to gank you under any circumstances. The fit above will do that. That's the point of it.
Posting on this character because apparently some people get upset when they're asked difficult questions. M. |
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Bossy Lady
Aliastra Gallente Federation
65
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Posted - 2012.06.12 14:11:00 -
[101] - Quote
Kijo Rikki wrote:Copine Callmeknau wrote:Simetraz wrote:FYI before you go talking about why a high-sec exhumer should sacrifice yield you might want to check with people that mine in 0.0.
You will find they don't sacrifice one little bit yield to mine in Null.
Now why do you think a high-sec miner should there sacrifice yield ?
So move to null? The difference being, of course, that out in null once your hulk is pointed its going to die tanked or not.
No no no, haven't you been reading GD at all? Nullsec is a happy safe wonderland where Hulks roam carefree and untouched, don't you know?
Posting on this character because apparently some people get upset when they're asked difficult questions. M. |
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ISD Stensson
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
4
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Posted - 2012.06.12 14:50:00 -
[102] - Quote
Thread moved from "EVE General Discussion" to "Ships & Modules" forum. ISD Stensson Ensign Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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sabre906
Old Spice Syndicate Sailors of the Sacred Spice
191
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Posted - 2012.06.12 15:06:00 -
[103] - Quote
There's a reason miners don't do this, not even in null - your yield with that fit is now the same as that of a Rokh, minus the tank.
If you want Rokh yield, just fly a Rokh. Trying to tank a Hulk is like fireproofing paper-mache. It's a fool's errand.
Btw, null mining is all about the local and intel channels. Tank is for rats. Standings Improvement Service https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=19454 |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
1741
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Posted - 2012.06.12 15:16:00 -
[104] - Quote
sabre906 wrote:There's a reason miners don't do this, not even in null - your yield with that fit is now the same as that of a Rokh, minus the tank.
Nope. A max-yield Rokh will get (per Pyfa) 16.16 m3/s.
A fully-tanked hulk with T2 miners will pull 21.69. Even with T1 strip miners you'll get 18.6.
The Rokh gets 75% the yield of a tanked hulk, and roughly 65% the yield of a max-yield hulk.
A tanked hulk loses about 10% of its yield. So the question is, do you lose hulks often enough that the cost of the hulk exceeds the 10% lost? In other words...are you mining 3 billion isk worth of ore between each gank of your max-yield hulk? If not, tank it. If so...stop whining. Spending 300 million to make 3 billion is a perfectly acceptable investment. It's time to put an end to CCP's war on piracy. Fight your own battles and stop asking CCP to do it for you. |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
1867
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Posted - 2012.06.12 15:32:00 -
[105] - Quote
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:sabre906 wrote:There's a reason miners don't do this, not even in null - your yield with that fit is now the same as that of a Rokh, minus the tank. Nope. A max-yield Rokh will get (per Pyfa) 16.16 m3/s. A fully-tanked hulk with T2 miners will pull 21.69. Even with T1 strip miners you'll get 18.6. The Rokh gets 75% the yield of a tanked hulk, and roughly 65% the yield of a max-yield hulk. A tanked hulk loses about 10% of its yield. So the question is, do you lose hulks often enough that the cost of the hulk exceeds the 10% lost? In other words...are you mining 3 billion isk worth of ore between each gank of your max-yield hulk? If not, tank it. If so...stop whining. Spending 300 million to make 3 billion is a perfectly acceptable investment.
You don't get it. The minerals I mine are minerals, not isk. The Hulk I buy costs Isk. Since the minerals I mine are free, how can I pay for the hulk? This is EVE. -á Everybody Versus Everybody. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1274
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Posted - 2012.06.12 17:15:00 -
[106] - Quote
Snow Axe wrote:Yeah, how expensive - mods that cost a whole 10 million tops (MAPC II) on a T2 ship that costs several hundred million isk. Be reasonable guys!
Also really, expecting people to have fitting skills on a character that flies T2 ships? Come on, now! That's just downright ~silly~
You oddly "skipped" the Dread Guristas Thermic Dissipation Field which here costs from 14.5M to 27M.
Imagine how's good to fit a pinata with more honey like faction gear.... Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1274
|
Posted - 2012.06.12 17:21:00 -
[107] - Quote
Kijo Rikki wrote:Copine Callmeknau wrote:Simetraz wrote:FYI before you go talking about why a high-sec exhumer should sacrifice yield you might want to check with people that mine in 0.0.
You will find they don't sacrifice one little bit yield to mine in Null.
Now why do you think a high-sec miner should there sacrifice yield ?
So move to null? The difference being, of course, that out in null once your hulk is pointed its going to die tanked or not.
Another difference being, you can't just "move to null". It's not like you pack your stuff in a T1 indy and autopilot there and then log in 30 minutes a day for your casual play.
You'll need to know HOW to get there, how to get there in one piece (not all have the titan bridge luxuries you know...) and then you have either to pay some rent high enough that you will never earn so much if you totally play casual.
Then if you are a renter you are usually left to your own self defense, so good luck doing it in your own RL allowed time frame.
If you are not a renter they will require you go and defend every time it's needed. Again, not a bad thing but they won't get a "sorry today I have 30 mins then I have to do XYZ in RL, so defend against that supercap fleet by yourselves".
Finally, if someone moves to null to mine, that someone is dumb. It's like moving to America with the express purpose of going to catch the tin cans on the streets.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1274
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Posted - 2012.06.12 17:24:00 -
[108] - Quote
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Expensive, couldn't fly it in a 50M SP industry alt I selected when I imported it in EFT (so it's also very SP demanding), requires +4% CPU even with all skills to V, actual tank is 32k. I prefer Rubyporto's fits by a large margin. I'll agree that it's a good idea to avoid faction mods on a gank target like a hulk. Even if they're cheap, a ganker choosing between multiple tanked targets will pick you to get those faction mods on the killmail. But skills? I have about 33 million SP right now. I can fly every T2 subcap except marauders, interdictors, and heavy interdictors. I can fly every flavor of T3 and have skills for 2/3 T2 large turret systems. I've cross-trained to use several T2 missiles as well. I have near-perfect shield AND armor tanking skills, both active and passive. I can scan, hack, and salvage with the best of them. I can also fly a hulk and have basic manufacturing skills. A hulk pilot shouldn't be flying a hulk without basic fitting and defensive skills. If you're putting a 50M character in a hulk and CAN'T fit a basic tank, you deserve to lose that ship.
A 50M industry character is made for... well... industry. It's uncommon at best to have them trained for "all V skills" T2 mods grade. Else you'd just use a PvP character, no? And remap accordingly. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1274
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Posted - 2012.06.12 17:28:00 -
[109] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote: But...but..but... why should I train fitting skills that don't improve my yield?
It did not even touch your mind the thought that maybe not everybody trains indy characters for mining to begin with, and much less they had the time to train the months required for your fancy fittings, eh?
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
1868
|
Posted - 2012.06.12 18:27:00 -
[110] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:RubyPorto wrote: But...but..but... why should I train fitting skills that don't improve my yield?
It did not even touch your mind the thought that maybe not everybody trains indy characters for mining to begin with, and much less they had the time to train the months required for your fancy fittings, eh?
I believe the requirements to fit all that are Engineering 5, Electronics 5, Hull Upgrades 2, Shield Upgrades ~4, and Energy Grid Upgrades 5(for the MAPCII IIRC). Can't think of anything else that affects CPU or Grid for it, but it's not exactly Onerous.
For a more genteel fitting with only t2 and meta mods, Energy Grid Upgrades 5 isn't even needed.
I don't have a fitting tool handy, but basic shield tanking skills do not take long to train.
Even if it did, so what? You train the skills you need for the job you need to do. If your job now needs shield tanking skills, either train them, or figure out another way to do your job so that you don't need it.
Titan pilots don't complain that they need to train whatever worthless science skill in order to bridge people. HIC pilots don't complain about Grav Physics 5. Haulers don't complain about industry 5 for their transports. This is EVE. -á Everybody Versus Everybody. |
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RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
1868
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Posted - 2012.06.12 18:28:00 -
[111] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Another difference being, you can't just "move to null". It's not like you pack your stuff in a T1 indy and autopilot there and then log in 30 minutes a day for your casual play.
You'll need to know HOW to get there, how to get there in one piece (not all have the titan bridge luxuries you know...) and then you have either to pay some rent high enough that you will never earn so much if you totally play casual.
Then if you are a renter you are usually left to your own self defense, so good luck doing it in your own RL allowed time frame.
Don't rent your system alone. Plenty of renter corps are perfectly accessible to casual players. This is EVE. -á Everybody Versus Everybody. |
Elyham
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
20
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Posted - 2012.06.12 19:30:00 -
[112] - Quote
The only valid fit for a hulk is of course max yield. Preferably with a faction/officer shield booster.
Elyham Director, Mining Buddy Program |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
1746
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Posted - 2012.06.12 19:30:00 -
[113] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:RubyPorto wrote: But...but..but... why should I train fitting skills that don't improve my yield?
It did not even touch your mind the thought that maybe not everybody trains indy characters for mining to begin with, and much less they had the time to train the months required for your fancy fittings, eh? "This toon isn't trained for flying a hulk, but I want to fly a hulk with it anyway. Now you're telling me I need TANK the hulk???"
My "fancy fittings" require less than a month to train. Far less than was spent training to fly the hulk and use the T2 strip miners. It's time to put an end to CCP's war on piracy. Fight your own battles and stop asking CCP to do it for you. |
Lucas Schuyler
Mortis Noir.
25
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Posted - 2012.06.12 21:27:00 -
[114] - Quote
@OP
For me the proof of concept is more along these lines: If you wanted to gank someone mining, and scanned them and found this fit, would that have you move on and gank someone else, or just re-fit / upship to gank them anyway?
If the former, it may have merit. If the latter, it is an exercise in futility, you may as well go with a lesser defense/better yield and stick with hoping you see them coming and can leave in time. |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
1747
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Posted - 2012.06.12 22:16:00 -
[115] - Quote
Lucas Schuyler wrote:@OP
For me the proof of concept is more along these lines: If you wanted to gank someone mining, and scanned them and found this fit, would that have you move on and gank someone else, or just re-fit / upship to gank them anyway?
If the former, it may have merit. If the latter, it is an exercise in futility, you may as well go with a lesser defense/better yield and stick with hoping you see them coming and can leave in time.
I could probably significantly improve the original fit I posted based on some other fittings I've worked out, but to be honest there's always the possibility of someone escalating to kill your tank. The point is to make the gank so expensive that they don't worry about it.
I've become a big fan of using fleet boosters for miners lately. It gives a significant increase to shield EHP and has the added bonus of not being visible to ship scans...resulting in you getting to watch gankers explode while you continue to mine. It's time to put an end to CCP's war on piracy. Fight your own battles and stop asking CCP to do it for you. |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
81
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Posted - 2012.06.13 00:05:00 -
[116] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:Energy Grid Upgrades 5(for the MAPCII IIRC)
Energy Management 5. |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
1870
|
Posted - 2012.06.13 01:14:00 -
[117] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:RubyPorto wrote:Energy Grid Upgrades 5(for the MAPCII IIRC) Energy Management 5.
Like I said, no fitting tool at hand. Thanks for the correction. This is EVE. -á Everybody Versus Everybody. |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
1870
|
Posted - 2012.06.13 01:19:00 -
[118] - Quote
Lucas Schuyler wrote:@OP
For me the proof of concept is more along these lines: If you wanted to gank someone mining, and scanned them and found this fit, would that have you move on and gank someone else, or just re-fit / upship to gank them anyway?
If the former, it may have merit. If the latter, it is an exercise in futility, you may as well go with a lesser defense/better yield and stick with hoping you see them coming and can leave in time.
How is making ganking you more expensive (and thus less likely) an exercise in futility? Is it an exercise in futility to prefer to carry a single Plex in a Freighter rather than a shuttle because the freighter is more expensive to gank?
Make it unprofitable to gank you (via tank) and you'll be less likely to lose ships. This is not an immunity, this is just altering the risk.
Make it hard to gank you (via flying techniques) and you'll never lose ships so long as you don't make a mistake. This is an immunity, it just takes some effort.
Your choice which strategies you employ and to what degree you employ them. This is EVE. -á Everybody Versus Everybody. |
Bossy Lady
Aliastra Gallente Federation
68
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Posted - 2012.06.13 06:36:00 -
[119] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:RubyPorto wrote: But...but..but... why should I train fitting skills that don't improve my yield?
It did not even touch your mind the thought that maybe not everybody trains indy characters for mining to begin with, and much less they had the time to train the months required for your fancy fittings, eh?
So the game should be balanced around people who don't train core skills or investigate fitting options?
Posting on this character because apparently some people get upset when they're asked difficult questions. M. |
Kuehnelt
Devoid Privateering
75
|
Posted - 2012.06.13 08:41:00 -
[120] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Another difference being, you can't just "move to null". It's not like you pack your stuff in a T1 indy and autopilot there and then log in 30 minutes a day for your casual play.
http://black-frog.red-frog.org/jumps.php
If you can afford a Hulk, you can easily afford to move more than a billion isk of crap into nullsec.
Venal and Stain have a lot of quiet bits. Providence is NRDS, with several entrances, I think two of them directly from highsec. If you're into casual play, then you log in, ask yourself if you can do what you'd planned to do given the situation in the area, and if you can then you do it; if you can't then you log back out. Or you jump-clone to highsec. Don't have 8.0 standing with anybody? Then join Estel Arador Corp Services for a few days.
This is how you fly into nullsec: 1) planning: set a destination, open the map, set it to "pilots in space in the last 30 minutes" (bearing in mind that a single pilot in a system can still be a Cynabal sitting in a bubble), find a relatively quiet route. Since you used Black Frog to move your mining equipment, you can travel light. 2) initial piloting: fly through highsec/lowsec without even noticing it. Enter nullsec. Each system you enter, if the gate's quiet, burn off it and create a bookmark that might let you avoid bubbles and scout the gate when you come back. Try and scan the next gate, but anyway, eventually, warp to it, create a bookmark, jump through. 3) subsequent piloting: warp to bookmark, warp to gate and jump, warp to bookmark, bleh. You've jump clones? You've moved your crap with Black Frog? Then you won't kill yourself doing too much of this.
Now, getting your stuff out of nullsec might be the fun part. My idea has been to scan down wormholes and jump through them - but when I tried that, last week in Venal, I ran out of systems to scan before I found a single wormhole. It was like walking down a street and waiting at each bus stop for the bus, before you realize: ****, you're already halfway home, you may as well keep walking.
But if you make a habit of scanning for wormholes while you mine (and what else are you going to do? You can't make it mine any faster.), you can move product when the opportunities appear rather than frustrate yourself trying to hunt the opportunities down.
Quote:Finally, if someone moves to null to mine, that someone is dumb.
*shrug*
I'm not a miner, but why not move just to move? Read your own post where you say dismiss this is an impossibility, and then do it to spite yourself. Or maybe you'll discover that you were more correct than you knew, and you'll return with better arguments. |
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