FYI before you go talking about why a high-sec exhumer should sacrifice yield you might want to check with people that mine in 0.0.

You will find they don't sacrifice one little bit yield to mine in Null.

Now why do you think a high-sec miner should there sacrifice yield ?

I think without using T2 rigs, the EHP of a hulk reaches around 28k?

And i believe the only real defense against an "Alpha" is EHP.

As this can possibly have its use, it makes "Alpha" easier.

because the nullsec miners actually play the game like a multiplayer game unlike the solo AFK mining botters like you

No that is why that ganked the question is why should they sacrifice their yield.

The question is why should they sacrifice their yield.
And go ahead and report me as a botter if you believe me to be one.

The current state of the game, what with the Hulk killing payouts, presents a choice: Fit tank and make yourself a hard/unattractive target, or fit for yield and die in a blaze the moment a gank fit Catalyst finds you.

These fits are proof that you have a CHOICE, and that the loss of your shitfit Hulk is not a result of game imbalances, but a result of your greed overriding your common sense.

Choice.
Did you know that a hulk gives a 15 % bonus to yield (at level 5)
So wouldn't it make more sense to just fly a Covetor then worry about tanking a Hulk ?

And if Hulks don't belong in high-sec then CCP should ban ALL T2 and T3 ships from high-sec.
They really have no business being there.
In fact we should prevent them from even being made in high-sec.

Choice.

And if Hulks don't belong in high-sec then CCP should ban ALL T2 and T3 ships from high-sec.
They really have no business being there.
In fact we should prevent them from even being made in high-sec.

The question is why should they sacrifice their yield.
And go ahead and report me as a botter if you believe me to be one.

15% from the Exhumers skill at V and 15% from Mining Barge V. You don't even know how your own ships work. Also 37.5% to shield resistances at Exhumers V - funny, that looks like a TANK skill to me, almost as if it's what your ship was meant to do?

Just the same, if a Covetor provides even yield and less risk, then it's...wait for it..YOUR CHOICE!



Ban Strat Cruisers and Marauders from L4 missions and Macks from mining Ice AFK?

This'd be the funniest thing ever.

FYI before you go talking about why a high-sec exhumer should sacrifice yield you might want to check with people that mine in 0.0.

You will find they don't sacrifice one little bit yield to mine in Null.

Now why do you think a high-sec miner should there sacrifice yield ?

Furthermore, Reducing yield is like fittinig more tank on your PvP ship at the expense of dps. I believe the PvP trend is mostly to have the right amount of dps otherwise your fit is gimped.

Why am I, a griefer and supporter of ganking posting this?

Did you know that a hulk gives a 15 % bonus to yield (at level 5)
So wouldn't it make more sense to just fly a Covetor then worry about tanking a Hulk ?

Because it's no fun without targets.

why not just fit a covetors with two medium overclocking rigs and two MLU IIs and mine away at full Hulk yield - 3% exhumer bonus per level

oh well

I'd be a little wary, I'd rather go full buffer tank for about 29k EHP myself.

You will find they don't sacrifice one little bit yield to mine in Null.

Now why do you think a high-sec miner should there sacrifice yield ?

[Hulk, Cheap Ungankable Hulk]
Damage Control II
Navy Micro Auxiliary Power Core

Pithum A-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Pithum A-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Pithum A-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Medium 'Canyon' Shield Extender

Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I

Medium Core Defense Field Extender II
Medium Core Defense Field Extender II

To be honest, there's not a lot to be done about defending against alpha. If someone wants to alpha a hulk, they will do it.

The question is, would this survive a destroyer gank, which relies on DPS overcoming a buffer before concord arrives, better than that 29k EHP? As I said, this is very much a new idea and could probably be improved.
.

Correction, it's no fun without smart targets. I now have an urge to re-read The Most Dangerous Game.

EDIT: Correction, its been long time since i read that in school.

[Hulk, New Setup 2]
Micro Auxiliary Power Core II
Damage Control II

Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Dread Guristas Thermic Dissipation Field

Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I

Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I


Mining Drone II x5


37k ehp against blasters but hey I guess 15% more yield is more important than surviving because CCP will make hisec safer for you right?

I think that's trivially false. Smart targets don't generate tears.

I think there's something a little more interesting going on.

. That DG Thermic field is like 70M. "Gank me!" should be proper name for that Hulk.

For some reason I can't take this fit seriously. That DG Thermic field is like 70M. "Gank me!" should be proper name for that Hulk.

I just kinda did fuzzy math in my head, i think a catalyst does about 700dps with the booster subtracting 200 of that, I think the bigger buffer would be safer. I am in no way proclaiming I am right, just my own opinion.

I think that's trivially false. Smart targets don't generate tears.

I think there's something a little more interesting going on.

Wow someone doesn't bother to log in to check prices, it's 10m

Where do you think I got that 70M from if not in game. 70M is lowest in Jita.

8 million is Jita price. I checked it moments ago (I bought my DG therms when faction loot was still on contract months ago). You're the worst at Eve ever.

http://i.imgur.com/oceXH.jpg There's a screenshot for fun, taken just moments ago (check Eve time)

The only DG shield hardeners that are worth anything are the Invulns, since they're the only ones that have better actual stats than T2.

What would really make this fit shine would be a Tengu booster, pushing it up close to 500 DPS tanked.

Buffer might be better, I dunno. I don't fly hulks any more, so I have no need to actually tank one. I'm just trying to put some new ideas out there and get those miners who DO tank their stuff to look into options. Because Eve is a lot more fun when you explore it, now matter how you do so.

Well, it's quite difficult to see Jita market prices ingame where my main is...

Currently can only see prices in Domain.

Where do you think I got that 70M from if not in game. 70M is lowest in Jita.

Hisec miners deliberately lying and being completely uneducated about things relating to tanks? Well I never!

So I've been messing around with the new ASB modules in pyfa, and I'm finding that one of

[Hulk, Tankity]

Damage Control II
Reactor Control Unit II

Medium Ancillary Shield Booster, Navy Cap Booster 100
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Survey Scanner II

Modulated Strip Miner II
Modulated Strip Miner II
Modulated Strip Miner II

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I

FYI before you go talking about why a high-sec exhumer should sacrifice yield you might want to check with people that mine in 0.0.

You will find they don't sacrifice one little bit yield to mine in Null.

Now why do you think a high-sec miner should there sacrifice yield ?

Haven't mined for over month now. Still waiting a brave ganker to gank my Hulk tanked with shield buffer and station. 20M (+ 100M from Goons) easy money but no one is interested.

How could you tell if they were if you haven't mined in a month?

FYI before you go talking about why a high-sec exhumer should sacrifice yield you might want to check with people that mine in 0.0.

You will find they don't sacrifice one little bit yield to mine in Null.

Now why do you think a high-sec miner should there sacrifice yield ?

Watch adjacent systems

Have a defensive fleet to kill hostile before they get there

Because most highsec miners don't have an alliance to protect them and seem to think they dont need to pay attention.

0.0 Hulks don't need any tank because they

Monitor local
Watch adjacent systems
Have massive bubble camps on all in-routes
Have a defensive fleet to kill hostile before they get there
Watch D-Scan

If Highsec miners did any of this they wouldn't need to compromise on yield either, but they don't.

It's still on station in Brazinget... somewhere there.

If someone destroys it I think it shouldn't be appearing in assets after search.

on station in a highsec system

Even if that were true (it's not, entirely. Different fleet compositions can serve entirely different purposes), it'd be seen as an acceptable sacrifice, i.e. part of the game. Anyone who PVP's knows that if you sacrifice your tank for anything else (sacrificing a shield tank for better lock times/tackle, or an armor tank for more DPS/mobility), you make yourself squishier, and you act accordingly.

That's the big fundamental difference between the two attitudes. PVP'ers make balance sacrifices all the time, and it's seen as a matter of course. Miners, on the other hand, go full gank (yield) while ignoring the tank bonus of their chosen ship and then scream about imbalances when they end up easy to gank because of it.

(note: I'm also not really telling YOU this, as I'm pretty sure you get it. This is more of a general screed for the dumbs that post **** like "WHY SHOULD I HAVE TO SACRIFICE YIELD").

I seriously love seeing highsec pubbies talking about life in nullsec.

Hint: the only of those things that actually happens on a regular basis is the first one.

Maybe its wrong to try to compare PvP with mining. As most people don't go out in a hulk expecting to engage in combat with another player...

If there should be a comparison, then it should be the fact that PvP ships should fit more tank along the lines that you'll survive longer and have less of a chance of being "alphad".

There is some grounds of people asking why yield should be sacrificed, when people are saying that it has to be sacrificed in every portion of eve.

I would also suggest that a very large amount of hi sec dwellers actually have vast amounts of knowledge of nullsec.

I would also suggest that a very large amount of hi sec dwellers actually have vast amounts of knowledge of nullsec.

FYI before you go talking about why a high-sec exhumer should sacrifice yield you might want to check with people that mine in 0.0.

You will find they don't sacrifice one little bit yield to mine in Null.

Yes and people who live in nullsec don't know anywhere near as much about life in nullsec as hisec hulk botters

They do unless they want to die to belt/grav site rats, or have another account in a combat to tank the damage.
A highsec player is perfectly capable of keeping a second account logged in at the belt in a falcon in case of gankers.

Bots use shield boosters in null. Usually very expensive shield boosters so those Hulks can easily tank belt rats.

And if Hulks don't belong in high-sec then CCP should ban ALL T2 and T3 ships from high-sec.
They really have no business being there.
In fact we should prevent them from even being made in high-sec.

By all means, fit a gistii-B on your hulk and warp to the nearest 0.0 belt, see how long it lasts.

[Hulk, New Setup 2]
Micro Auxiliary Power Core II
Damage Control II

Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Dread Guristas Thermic Dissipation Field

Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I

Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I


Mining Drone II x5


37k ehp against blasters but hey I guess 15% more yield is more important than surviving because CCP will make hisec safer for you right?

[Hulk, active]

Mining Laser Upgrade II
Mining Laser Upgrade II

Gistii A-Type Small Shield Booster
Gistum B-Type Kinetic Deflection Amplifier
Gistum B-Type Thermic Dissipation Amplifier
Gist B-Type Shield Boost Amplifier

Modulated Strip Miner II
Modulated Strip Miner II
Modulated Strip Miner II

Medium Processor Overclocking Unit I
Medium Processor Overclocking Unit I

Should be enough against Guristas.

That fit requires PG implants (just FYI).

Change one rig to an Ancillary Current Router and it fits easily, and you'll still have a 29k EHP omnitank (it's 32k EHP with both CDFE's). You could even upgrade the Shield extender to a Caldari Navy Medium shield (t2 equiv, easier fitting skills, 28mil in Jita), though that might have a negative effect as far as making you an attractive target for only 1k more EHP.

Also for whoever was whining about ECM drones, you can carry a rack of lights (Hornet EC-300) along with a rack of T2 Mining drones (or alternately a rack of any light drones alongside it).

FYI before you go talking about why a high-sec exhumer should sacrifice yield you might want to check with people that mine in 0.0.

You will find they don't sacrifice one little bit yield to mine in Null.

Now why do you think a high-sec miner should there sacrifice yield ?

Hulks don't belong in high-sec.

FYI before you go talking about why a high-sec exhumer should sacrifice yield you might want to check with people that mine in 0.0.

You will find they don't sacrifice one little bit yield to mine in Null.

Now why do you think a high-sec miner should there sacrifice yield ?

Haven't mined for over month now. Still waiting a brave ganker to gank my Hulk tanked with shield buffer and station. 20M (+ 100M from Goons) easy money but no one is interested.

So I've been messing around with the new ASB modules in pyfa, and I'm finding that one of the most interesting possibilities is giving the Hulk a 200 DPS tank on TOP of a 20k EHP buffer. Pfya lists this as having 20.5k EHP with a 232.4 DPS tank while the booster is running. You can load the booster with ten cap booster 50s and run it cap stable for the duration of an attempted gank (assuming Pyfa is calculating the booster use properly)

It's not fool-proof and no matter what you do you're still vulnerable to two tornado volleys, but it might be a significant difference for those miners who actually pay attention to their surroundings and are able to react to ships appearing on grid.

Why am I, a griefer and supporter of ganking posting this? Because it requires effort and sacrifice. Bots and afk miners need not apply; you have to be paying attention to use this. Max yield addicts who can't live without dual MLUs won't like it either because they'll give up that ~15% yield. I want the people--even the miners--who actually play the game and are willing to put in the time to research and test fits to succeed, this *might* give them an advantage over their afk, inattentive, and ignorant competition.

The fit is a little bit odd-looking and I'm sure could be improved upon. This is just a proof-of-concept at a mixed Hulk tank that might provide some much-needed active tanking. If you have ideas on giving it more tank without absurdly increasing the price, feel free to share.

[Hulk, Tankity]

Damage Control II
Reactor Control Unit II

Medium Ancillary Shield Booster, Navy Cap Booster 100
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Survey Scanner II

Modulated Strip Miner II
Modulated Strip Miner II
Modulated Strip Miner II

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I

most people don't go out in a hulk expecting to engage in combat with another player...

B-b-b-b-b-but that doesn't optimise my ISK/hr ratio at all! How can I possibly be expected to make fitting trade offs like everyone else does as a miner?

FYI before you go talking about why a high-sec exhumer should sacrifice yield you might want to check with people that mine in 0.0.

You will find they don't sacrifice one little bit yield to mine in Null.

Now why do you think a high-sec miner should there sacrifice yield ?

that's because null sec is safe ... that's where the real carebears are. The risk in 0.0 is about the same as it is in high sec .. so it's time to return the reward to high sec to go with the proven risk.

When was the last time you saw a sov war in highsec?

0.0 can only be safe if people fight to make it safe. High secers do nothing to secure the safety of concord and faction police.

so how many cap booster chargers can you fit in your cargo? Wouldn't it be easier to just fly a Rokh?

FYI before you go talking about why a high-sec exhumer should sacrifice yield you might want to check with people that mine in 0.0.

You will find they don't sacrifice one little bit yield to mine in Null.

Now why do you think a high-sec miner should there sacrifice yield ?

[Hulk, New Setup 2]
Micro Auxiliary Power Core II
Damage Control II

Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Dread Guristas Thermic Dissipation Field

Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I

Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I


Mining Drone II x5


37k ehp against blasters but hey I guess 15% more yield is more important than surviving because CCP will make hisec safer for you right?

You will find they don't sacrifice one little bit yield to mine in Null.

Now why do you think a high-sec miner should there sacrifice yield ?

Because the nullsec hulks organise with hundreds of fellow players, and usually have to pay refining taxes for the privilege as well.

When you too put the effort into co-ordinating with a large group then you too will gain benefits from doing so.

FYI before you go talking about why a high-sec exhumer should sacrifice yield you might want to check with people that mine in 0.0.

You will find they don't sacrifice one little bit yield to mine in Null.

Now why do you think a high-sec miner should there sacrifice yield ?

So move to null?

Expensive, couldn't fly it in a 50M SP industry alt I selected when I imported it in EFT (so it's also very SP demanding), requires +4% CPU even with all skills to V, actual tank is 32k. I prefer Rubyporto's fits by a large margin.

I'll agree that it's a good idea to avoid faction mods on a gank target like a hulk. Even if they're cheap, a ganker choosing between multiple tanked targets will pick you to get those faction mods on the killmail. But skills?

I have about 33 million SP right now. I can fly every T2 subcap except marauders, interdictors, and heavy interdictors. I can fly every flavor of T3 and have skills for 2/3 T2 large turret systems. I've cross-trained to use several T2 missiles as well. I have near-perfect shield AND armor tanking skills, both active and passive. I can scan, hack, and salvage with the best of them. I can also fly a hulk and have basic manufacturing skills.

A hulk pilot shouldn't be flying a hulk without basic fitting and defensive skills. If you're putting a 50M character in a hulk and CAN'T fit a basic tank, you deserve to lose that ship.

But...but..but... why should I train fitting skills that don't improve my yield?

Expensive, couldn't fly it in a 50M SP industry alt I selected when I imported it in EFT (so it's also very SP demanding), requires +4% CPU even with all skills to V, actual tank is 32k. I prefer Rubyporto's fits by a large margin.

The difference being, of course, that out in null once your hulk is pointed its going to die tanked or not.

There's a reason miners don't do this, not even in null - your yield with that fit is now the same as that of a Rokh, minus the tank.

Nope. A max-yield Rokh will get (per Pyfa) 16.16 m3/s.

A fully-tanked hulk with T2 miners will pull 21.69. Even with T1 strip miners you'll get 18.6.

The Rokh gets 75% the yield of a tanked hulk, and roughly 65% the yield of a max-yield hulk.

A tanked hulk loses about 10% of its yield. So the question is, do you lose hulks often enough that the cost of the hulk exceeds the 10% lost? In other words...are you mining 3 billion isk worth of ore between each gank of your max-yield hulk? If not, tank it. If so...stop whining. Spending 300 million to make 3 billion is a perfectly acceptable investment.

Yeah, how expensive - mods that cost a whole 10 million tops (MAPC II) on a T2 ship that costs several hundred million isk. Be reasonable guys!

Also really, expecting people to have fitting skills on a character that flies T2 ships? Come on, now! That's just downright ~silly~

The difference being, of course, that out in null once your hulk is pointed its going to die tanked or not.

I'll agree that it's a good idea to avoid faction mods on a gank target like a hulk. Even if they're cheap, a ganker choosing between multiple tanked targets will pick you to get those faction mods on the killmail. But skills?

I have about 33 million SP right now. I can fly every T2 subcap except marauders, interdictors, and heavy interdictors. I can fly every flavor of T3 and have skills for 2/3 T2 large turret systems. I've cross-trained to use several T2 missiles as well. I have near-perfect shield AND armor tanking skills, both active and passive. I can scan, hack, and salvage with the best of them. I can also fly a hulk and have basic manufacturing skills.

A hulk pilot shouldn't be flying a hulk without basic fitting and defensive skills. If you're putting a 50M character in a hulk and CAN'T fit a basic tank, you deserve to lose that ship.

But...but..but... why should I train fitting skills that don't improve my yield?

It did not even touch your mind the thought that maybe not everybody trains indy characters for mining to begin with, and much less they had the time to train the months required for your fancy fittings, eh?

Another difference being, you can't just "move to null".
It's not like you pack your stuff in a T1 indy and autopilot there and then log in 30 minutes a day for your casual play.

You'll need to know HOW to get there, how to get there in one piece (not all have the titan bridge luxuries you know...) and then you have either to pay some rent high enough that you will never earn so much if you totally play casual.

Then if you are a renter you are usually left to your own self defense, so good luck doing it in your own RL allowed time frame.

It did not even touch your mind the thought that maybe not everybody trains indy characters for mining to begin with, and much less they had the time to train the months required for your fancy fittings, eh?

@OP

For me the proof of concept is more along these lines: If you wanted to gank someone mining, and scanned them and found this fit, would that have you move on and gank someone else, or just re-fit / upship to gank them anyway?

If the former, it may have merit. If the latter, it is an exercise in futility, you may as well go with a lesser defense/better yield and stick with hoping you see them coming and can leave in time.

Energy Grid Upgrades 5(for the MAPCII IIRC)

Energy Management 5.

@OP

For me the proof of concept is more along these lines: If you wanted to gank someone mining, and scanned them and found this fit, would that have you move on and gank someone else, or just re-fit / upship to gank them anyway?

If the former, it may have merit. If the latter, it is an exercise in futility, you may as well go with a lesser defense/better yield and stick with hoping you see them coming and can leave in time.

It did not even touch your mind the thought that maybe not everybody trains indy characters for mining to begin with, and much less they had the time to train the months required for your fancy fittings, eh?

Another difference being, you can't just "move to null".
It's not like you pack your stuff in a T1 indy and autopilot there and then log in 30 minutes a day for your casual play.

Finally, if someone moves to null to mine, that someone is dumb.

B-b-b-b-b-but that doesn't optimise my ISK/hr ratio at all! How can I possibly be expected to make fitting trade offs like everyone else does as a miner?

How is making ganking you more expensive (and thus less likely) an exercise in futility? Is it an exercise in futility to prefer to carry a single Plex in a Freighter rather than a shuttle because the freighter is more expensive to gank?

Make it unprofitable to gank you (via tank) and you'll be less likely to lose ships. This is not an immunity, this is just altering the risk.

Make it hard to gank you (via flying techniques) and you'll never lose ships so long as you don't make a mistake. This is an immunity, it just takes some effort.

Your choice which strategies you employ and to what degree you employ them.

Because there is already NO profit in ganking a miner. People do it for the lulz and the tears

Have you ever salvaged a T2 ship wreck?

Really? Ganking a miner, having your own ship destroyed by CONCORD so that you can salvage the wreck has a better risk v reward / ROI than... Almost anything else you can do in the same span of time? I am dubious, but if it works for you, awesome.

If you can still use an Orca's SMA while under GCC, they can stow most of their gear in an orca before the ship is lost, limiting their losses to the hull and a few inexpensive mods. On top of that, they'll be looting and salvaging a hulk wreck. I'm not sure it's particularly profitable, but the cost of their fun goes down significantly.

Really? Ganking a miner, having your own ship destroyed by CONCORD so that you can salvage the wreck has a better risk v reward / ROI than... Almost anything else you can do in the same span of time? I am dubious, but if it works for you, awesome.