| Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 :: one page |
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Har Ganeth
   |
Posted - 2005.05.06 16:18:00 -
[91]
Edited by: Har Ganeth on 06/05/2005 16:24:44
Looking at the graphs in this thread, I can't say I agree with the maths at all. From my experiments, the graph is not an exponential, but closer to a third order polynomial. I'll report back when i have some more, but im pretty sure what is said here is only a very rough approximation.
If indeed it were a third order polynomial, the cap recharge at any point would be given by dy/dx, which would be a quadratic (dy/dx again to find the stationary point and therefore the max recharge point...)
|
Har Ganeth
|
Posted - 2005.05.06 16:30:00 -
[92]
Actually, looks to me like it could be of order 5, which would make the recharge rate graph of order 4...
|
Pwn4ge P4nts
|
Posted - 2005.05.06 17:11:00 -
[93]
buhues,you math geeks take all the fun and "wtf-factor" out of it with your graphs and your formulas!! 
Go awaaaaay.
All us hardcore alts despise math and anything remotely associated with it!!11one 
|
Pwn4ge P4nts
|
Posted - 2005.05.06 17:22:00 -
[94]
 Quote:
If indeed it were a third order polynomial, the cap recharge at any point would be given by dy/dx, which would be a quadratic (dy/dx again to find the stationary point and therefore the max recharge point...)
This is just gibberish! The Capacitor is a mythical beast, not to be trifled with! Several of my alten brethren have informed me that meddling around with forbidden Cap research caused the downfall of the mighty Curse Alliance!
|
Shidhe
|
Posted - 2005.05.06 17:30:00 -
[95]
And have another dark age? Kindle again the fires that destroyed the library of Alexandria?
|
Pwn4ge P4nts
|
Posted - 2005.05.06 17:40:00 -
[96]
Quote:
And have another dark age? Kindle again the fires that destroyed the library of Alexandria?
Sorry,never heard about that system/constellation.
|
Har Ganeth
|
Posted - 2005.05.06 18:04:00 -
[97]
Edited by: Har Ganeth on 06/05/2005 18:04:07
http://eek2.com/eve
Are a couple of graphs i've drawn. The data was gathered by emptying my cap and then checking the new level every 5 seconds. Obviously, it would be much more accurate to use a smaller interval, but it's hard to look at the stop watch, then the screen, then write the number down. :o
Then again, it could be an exponential, and i've just stumbled across a taylor expansion/approximation.
|
Dust Puppy
|
Posted - 2005.05.08 23:12:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Har Ganeth
Edited by: Har Ganeth on 06/05/2005 16:24:44
Looking at the graphs in this thread, I can't say I agree with the maths at all. From my experiments, the graph is not an exponential, but closer to a third order polynomial. I'll report back when i have some more, but im pretty sure what is said here is only a very rough approximation.
If indeed it were a third order polynomial, the cap recharge at any point would be given by dy/dx, which would be a quadratic (dy/dx again to find the stationary point and therefore the max recharge point...)
Actually the 5th order polynomial fits rather well. I fitted a fifth order polynomial to my measurements which you can see here. The problem I see with the capacitor recharge being a polynomial is that it's not a stable function. In the end it will always head towards infinity and it just seem slobby to have a function you need to stop.
The formula that is used in the game is really irrelevant as we just need a function that fits the "real" recharge curve well enough. The formula that I suggested fits well enough in my opinion.
I updated the figure showing the different modules which you can see here.
__________
Capacitor research |
Dust Puppy
|
Posted - 2005.05.08 23:13:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Pwn4ge P4nts
buhues,you math geeks take all the fun and "wtf-factor" out of it with your graphs and your formulas!!
Go awaaaaay.
All us hardcore alts despise math and anything remotely associated with it!!11one
That's ok we hardcore math geeks are not overly fond of alts either 
__________
Capacitor research |
Matthew
|
Posted - 2005.05.09 14:05:00 -
[100]
Edited by: Matthew on 09/05/2005 14:05:04
Very nice work Dust Puppy 
Am looking into making a tanking simulator, and thus factoring in shield and cap recharges would be kinda useful.
My current plan is to simulate with a resolution of 1 second, using the equation you got of:
dc(C) = tau*(1-C/C_0)*sqrt(2*C/C_0 - (C/C_0)^2)
Obviously taking the cap/sec instantaneous recharge and applying that value for that 1 second.
What do you think of this plan? Would it be better to use C as the value at the start of the second, or at the end of the second (i.e. before or after all the drains get taken out)?
|
Dust Puppy
|
Posted - 2005.05.09 16:22:00 -
[101]
Edited by: Dust Puppy on 09/05/2005 16:22:19
Originally by: Matthew
Edited by: Matthew on 09/05/2005 14:05:04
Very nice work Dust Puppy
Thank you
Originally by: Matthew
Am looking into making a tanking simulator, and thus factoring in shield and cap recharges would be kinda useful.
My current plan is to simulate with a resolution of 1 second, using the equation you got of:
dc(C) = tau*(1-C/C_0)*sqrt(2*C/C_0 - (C/C_0)^2)
Obviously taking the cap/sec instantaneous recharge and applying that value for that 1 second.
What do you think of this plan? Would it be better to use C as the value at the start of the second, or at the end of the second (i.e. before or after all the drains get taken out)?
First thought to me is that it makes more sense to do the drain and then check the recharge rate. You should probably do both though and compare the results. If you are getting some big difference in results then give it some thought. If you are still undecided after that it's probably just best to increase the resolution (decrease maybe, well make it more accurate )
Look forward to see that tanking simulator 
__________
Capacitor research |
Har Ganeth
|
Posted - 2005.05.09 17:21:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Dust Puppy
Actually the 5th order polynomial fits rather well. I fitted a fifth order polynomial to my measurements which you can see here. The problem I see with the capacitor recharge being a polynomial is that it's not a stable function. In the end it will always head towards infinity and it just seem slobby to have a function you need to stop.
The formula that is used in the game is really irrelevant as we just need a function that fits the "real" recharge curve well enough. The formula that I suggested fits well enough in my opinion.
I updated the figure showing the different modules which you can see here.
I suspect I may have just found (or got close to) the taylor approximation of the real function, rather than is actually being a 5 order polynomial. And as you say, it would be kind messy for the game to use a polynomial.
You've obviously put a lot of work into this (i've only spent about 30 minutes, and that included taking cap readings every 5 seconds etc...) and i look forward to seeing your tank simulator. :D
|
Dust Puppy
|
Posted - 2005.05.09 17:44:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Har Ganeth
I suspect I may have just found (or got close to) the taylor approximation of the real function, rather than is actually being a 5 order polynomial. And as you say, it would be kind messy for the game to use a polynomial.
You've obviously put a lot of work into this (i've only spent about 30 minutes, and that included taking cap readings every 5 seconds etc...) and i look forward to seeing your tank simulator. :D
I'm not totally sure that I have the exact formula and I won't get offended if someone brings a better fit than the formula that I offered because I know I'm pretty close even if I'm not spot on
In fact if someone has an idea about a curve that could be a better match then by all means post it here and I'll check it fits better.
Also it's Matthew that's doing the tanking simulator 
__________
Capacitor research |
Flash Landsraad
|
Posted - 2005.05.10 08:58:00 -
[104]
Very nice work.
________________________________________________
Stop Whining!!!
Level  Superiority |
Matthew
|
Posted - 2005.05.10 11:05:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Dust Puppy
First thought to me is that it makes more sense to do the drain and then check the recharge rate. You should probably do both though and compare the results.
That's what I was thinking, was just asking in case you'd noticed it one way or the other during your testing.
Originally by: Dust Puppy
If you are getting some big difference in results then give it some thought. If you are still undecided after that it's probably just best to increase the resolution (decrease maybe, well make it more accurate )
That'll be decrease the interval to increase the resolution I'm hoping not to have to go too fine with the resolution. Would be nice to keep this thing running fairly fast, but if it's needed, it'll happen.
|
Mr Raine
|
Posted - 2005.05.10 11:28:00 -
[106]
woooossssshhhhhh... what was that that went over my head,
|
Marion Quicksilver
|
Posted - 2005.05.11 06:47:00 -
[107]
From one nerd to another... the world needs more of us.
The complexity of the game is the main reason I play.
Keep it up.
|
poisoner orbius
|
Posted - 2005.06.11 06:06:00 -
[108]
friendly bump
|
Nytemaster
|
Posted - 2005.07.14 09:41:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Dust Puppy
Edited by: Dust Puppy on 18/10/2004 11:22:24
One of the most complicated part of your ship is your capacitor. Most of the pilots in EVE have probably made the mistake of fitting their ship to perfection only to realize in battle that they don't have the juice to run it all.
This is all fine and dandy, but I have no clue what all these variables are nor how I could put them in a simple f(x) function for graphing. I would like to know this exact formula so I can play around with the numbers a bit.
Nytemaster
Mega-Deth |
Dust Puppy
|
Posted - 2005.07.14 09:49:00 -
[110]
Edited by: Dust Puppy on 14/07/2005 09:50:20
Originally by: Nytemaster
This is all fine and dandy, but I have no clue what all these variables are nor how I could put them in a simple f(x) function for graphing. I would like to know this exact formula so I can play around with the numbers a bit.
Capacitor capacity vs. time
C = C_0(1-1/cosh(tau*t))
Recharge rate vs. time
dc(t)/dt = tau*tanh(tau*t)/cosh(tau*t)
Recharge rate vs. Capacitor capacity
dc(C) = tau*(1-C/C_0)*sqrt(2*C/C_0 - (C/C_0)^2)
C_0 is the maximum capacity of the capacitor
tau is 4.8/T => T = average recharge rate
|
Therian
|
Posted - 2005.07.28 05:44:00 -
[111]
As the Guinness guys say in the TV commercials, "BRILLIANT!"
I had messed around with exponentials, but never considered the hyperbolic trig functions, since I haven't studied them (although they really are exponentials in disguise ). Most of my number work revolved around the profits from POS when they came out, and now the numbers for production and profits currently.
Props to Dust Puppy, minus the unlabeled graphs (I lost points in class all the time for that). My Raven shall be happy again
________________________________
Therian
Dreamscape Chief Financial Officer
Director of Manufacturing and Sales |
B0rn2KiLL
|
Posted - 2005.09.30 04:28:00 -
[112]
le bump
---
When It Absolutely Positively Has To Be Desotroyed. |
Distran
|
Posted - 2005.10.20 22:41:00 -
[113]
Nice work. I'm actually surprised that no one's written a program to pull out the actual values from the capacitor at extremely tiny intervals of time to get a more clear graph and thus a better equation approximation. Not sure how legal that would be, but you'd just pulling info that's already available, just hard to record properly manually...
|
Stephen HB
|
Posted - 2005.10.21 02:05:00 -
[114]
Resurrecting old threads is bad mmmkay?
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"Who is the more foolish, the fool or the fool who follows him?" Obi-Wan Kenobi |
Megadon
|
Posted - 2005.10.21 05:42:00 -
[115]
Edited by: Megadon on 21/10/2005 05:42:24
Originally by: Azure Skyclad
If i lick the terminals...will it tingle?
Hahaha lmao
It will cook your tongue
|
ELECTR0FREAK
|
Posted - 2005.10.21 08:47:00 -
[116]
Power to the math nerds of EVE.
:Looks meaningfully at his sig:
-Electrofreak
Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula |
B0rn2KiLL
|
Posted - 2005.10.21 12:53:00 -
[117]
well im no math wiz and half that stuff is jeberish to me, but it helped me map a mental image of my capacitor and its recharge rate. now i turn on certain modules at a certain percentageo f the capacitor, makes them last 3 times as long :)
good work dude.
---
When It Absolutely Positively Has To Be Desotroyed. |
NupNQ
|
Posted - 2005.11.24 12:05:00 -
[118]
has anybody thought about frapsing the exact numbers of the cap and then write the numbers down bei playing the vid picture by picture?
|
CaseyLance
|
Posted - 2005.12.07 12:54:00 -
[119]
Yes I have, but the results are not very surprising. I get here errors btw the calculated and measured graph > 5% which is bad. I will post more if
1. have more time to investigate what the error is.
2. my new computer arives, my current one is broken :-(
But you out there can help Dust Puppy (and me ;) ) if you fraps your empty cap when it reloads and post your skill level which gives you cap boost (sry I don't have it right here but there is at least one skill). Then write down the frame number which the change of the cap display accours and the cap status (in cap units not in percent!!)
Maybe with virtualdub (use google).
Just a realy quick suggestion, look at nr.2 why I don't have much time ;)
|
CaseyLance
|
Posted - 2005.12.08 19:32:00 -
[120]
Ok now I can be a lil more informative.
The Formula works for me 100% if there are no bonuses involved.
But if i try to add bonuses sth realy goes wrong.
dc(t)/dt = c_0*(1+bonus)*sinh(tau*t)*tau/(cosh(tau*t)^2);
Because it says it gives 5% recharge rate bonus (energy system operation skill, which i have to lvl 3) i set bonus to 0.15 and tau = k / (recharge_time*(1-bonus)). So i integrated the formula above, just a lil mind jugling ^^
c(t) = c_0.*(1-(1+bonus)./cosh(tau.*t));
Ok, this work 100% correct (as said i frapsd a recharge and yield an error less than 1%), but when it comes to bonuses i get errors around 5% which indicates that sth is realy wrong or I have measured sooo badly ;).
Maybe someone could look over this and give me a tip ... !
|
| |
|
| Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |