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Dust Puppy
   |
Posted - 2004.10.18 11:19:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Dust Puppy on 18/10/2004 11:22:24
One of the most complicated part of your ship is your capacitor. Most of the pilots in EVE have probably made the mistake of fitting their ship to perfection only to realize in battle that they don't have the juice to run it all.
The capacitor is mostly complicated because we don't really know the recharge rate curve. We know how long it takes for a capacitor to recharge fully and we know how much power it can give when it's fully but we don't really know what happens in between, that is until now.
Many of you have probably thought that the curve is of the familiar exponential form:
C = C0(1-exp(-tau*t))
Well it's close but doesn't quite describe it though. According to the exponential curve we would have optimal recharger at time 0 but according to my experience it is more when the capacitor is at about 30%-40%. I tried a similar curve of the form:
C = C0(1-1/cosh(tau*t))
And that one fitted like a glove. I can understand that you are hesitant to take my word for it but to further prove my point take a look at this picture. The broken line is when I tried to fit the exponential curve but the solid line is the cosh line. The lines are very similar and that is no coincident as cosh(x) function is defined:
cosh(x) = 1/2(exp(x) + exp(-x))
Now you are probably wondering what the hell tau is. Well it's just a time constant which determines how fast your cap recharges. As you might imagine it is dependant on T the recharge time. To be more exact it is of the form:
tau = k/T
where k = 4.8 according to my measurements.
Taking the tangent of the curve on the figure above would give us the recharge rate. You can see the recharge rate curve with the capacitor curve on this figure. The figures were made on a hypothetical ship that has 100 cap and 100 charges on 100 seconds. Does that mean that this hypothetical ship can maintain a module that uses over 2 cap per second. Well not exactly. The top that is close to 2.5 cap per second is just an instantanious recharge rate. When dealing with modules and their usage we have to plot a curve over period of time. For example to see how much a cap recharges over given period of time. I plotted a few of those curves which you can see here. The curves are of the form.
C0(1-1/cosh(tau(t-t0)) - C0(1-1/cosh(tau*t)) = C0(1/cosh(tau*t)-1/cosh(tau(t-t0)))
Where t0 is 1, 2, 4, 8, 12 where 12 is for the top curve and 1 is for the lowest curve. So for example if a module has 12sec in activation time this ship could maintain it as long as it had under 27 cap in activation cost and that would be when the capacitor were 20 seconds from being empty which would be when the cap is around 32%.
The graph I've shown you are kind of useless for practical purposes as we don't know what time it is since the the cap was empty. And since we are always activating modules it's impossible for us to know. A much more useful curve is one that shows capacitor recharge as a function of the state of the capacator. You can see that curve here
As can be seen from that figure the capacitor has the maximum recharge when it is about 30% full.
What does this all mean then and how can you benefit from it. Well you can already benefit from knowing when the capacitor is at maximum recharge and can use that to your advantage. Another useful thing is to compare modules. I used a Moa as a model, why you might ask, well I really really like that ship. It has 1100 cap and recharge time 393sec. I plotted a number of cap-cap recharge curves. You can see the figure here. I did not apply any skill to my numbers and I used only tech 1 modules. The cap battery is medium cap batter I which gives 240 cap.
I hope this research can be of use to anyone.
__________
Capacitor research |
Dust Puppy
|
Posted - 2004.10.18 11:19:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Dust Puppy on 18/10/2004 11:22:24
One of the most complicated part of your ship is your capacitor. Most of the pilots in EVE have probably made the mistake of fitting their ship to perfection only to realize in battle that they don't have the juice to run it all.
The capacitor is mostly complicated because we don't really know the recharge rate curve. We know how long it takes for a capacitor to recharge fully and we know how much power it can give when it's fully but we don't really know what happens in between, that is until now.
Many of you have probably thought that the curve is of the familiar exponential form:
C = C0(1-exp(-tau*t))
Well it's close but doesn't quite describe it though. According to the exponential curve we would have optimal recharger at time 0 but according to my experience it is more when the capacitor is at about 30%-40%. I tried a similar curve of the form:
C = C0(1-1/cosh(tau*t))
And that one fitted like a glove. I can understand that you are hesitant to take my word for it but to further prove my point take a look at this picture. The broken line is when I tried to fit the exponential curve but the solid line is the cosh line. The lines are very similar and that is no coincident as cosh(x) function is defined:
cosh(x) = 1/2(exp(x) + exp(-x))
Now you are probably wondering what the hell tau is. Well it's just a time constant which determines how fast your cap recharges. As you might imagine it is dependant on T the recharge time. To be more exact it is of the form:
tau = k/T
where k = 4.8 according to my measurements.
Taking the tangent of the curve on the figure above would give us the recharge rate. You can see the recharge rate curve with the capacitor curve on this figure. The figures were made on a hypothetical ship that has 100 cap and 100 charges on 100 seconds. Does that mean that this hypothetical ship can maintain a module that uses over 2 cap per second. Well not exactly. The top that is close to 2.5 cap per second is just an instantanious recharge rate. When dealing with modules and their usage we have to plot a curve over period of time. For example to see how much a cap recharges over given period of time. I plotted a few of those curves which you can see here. The curves are of the form.
C0(1-1/cosh(tau(t-t0)) - C0(1-1/cosh(tau*t)) = C0(1/cosh(tau*t)-1/cosh(tau(t-t0)))
Where t0 is 1, 2, 4, 8, 12 where 12 is for the top curve and 1 is for the lowest curve. So for example if a module has 12sec in activation time this ship could maintain it as long as it had under 27 cap in activation cost and that would be when the capacitor were 20 seconds from being empty which would be when the cap is around 32%.
The graph I've shown you are kind of useless for practical purposes as we don't know what time it is since the the cap was empty. And since we are always activating modules it's impossible for us to know. A much more useful curve is one that shows capacitor recharge as a function of the state of the capacator. You can see that curve here
As can be seen from that figure the capacitor has the maximum recharge when it is about 30% full.
What does this all mean then and how can you benefit from it. Well you can already benefit from knowing when the capacitor is at maximum recharge and can use that to your advantage. Another useful thing is to compare modules. I used a Moa as a model, why you might ask, well I really really like that ship. It has 1100 cap and recharge time 393sec. I plotted a number of cap-cap recharge curves. You can see the figure here. I did not apply any skill to my numbers and I used only tech 1 modules. The cap battery is medium cap batter I which gives 240 cap.
I hope this research can be of use to anyone.
__________
Capacitor research |
Joshua Calvert
|
Posted - 2004.10.18 11:39:00 -
[3]
It's a shame you're not as cute as Carol Vorderman, Dust Puppy, or I'd be sexing you!
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2004.10.18 11:39:00 -
[4]
It's a shame you're not as cute as Carol Vorderman, Dust Puppy, or I'd be sexing you!
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Spanker
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Posted - 2004.10.18 11:52:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Spanker on 18/10/2004 11:55:58
Nice matlab job =) Or at least I assume your using matlab, that's what I did all day long in brun :p
No but really, your stuff seems to be correct as far as I can tell. If it isn't the cosh then it's some variation that's so similar the difference is negligable. Bravo!
EDIT
I'm printing this 
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Spanker
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Posted - 2004.10.18 11:52:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Spanker on 18/10/2004 11:55:58
Nice matlab job =) Or at least I assume your using matlab, that's what I did all day long in brun :p
No but really, your stuff seems to be correct as far as I can tell. If it isn't the cosh then it's some variation that's so similar the difference is negligable. Bravo!
EDIT
I'm printing this
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Tas Devil
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Posted - 2004.10.18 11:53:00 -
[7]
Man some people are scaringly fanatic of EVE ...
But great info nonetheless....do you have a formula that would be useable with EVE ship stats ? to say give max cap/sec recharge rate at a given %of total cap level ?
Cheers professor
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Tas Devil
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Posted - 2004.10.18 11:53:00 -
[8]
Man some people are scaringly fanatic of EVE ...
But great info nonetheless....do you have a formula that would be useable with EVE ship stats ? to say give max cap/sec recharge rate at a given %of total cap level ?
Cheers professor
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Dust Puppy
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Posted - 2004.10.18 12:57:00 -
[9]
Well if you look at this picture (the lower one) and now that the ship has 100 cap and recharge time of 100 sec which means an average of 1 cap per sec you see that the max recharge rate is a bit less than 2.5 cap per sec. So your theoretical max capacitor recharge is about 2.4*(average recharge rate).
This is a theoretical max recharge rate expect it to appear a little less in reality.
Spanker I did indeed use matlab and you are right even if I am wrong about the formula it makes a little difference as it is close enough.
Joshua I'll get working on getting cuter.
__________
Capacitor research |
Dust Puppy
|
Posted - 2004.10.18 12:57:00 -
[10]
Well if you look at this picture (the lower one) and now that the ship has 100 cap and recharge time of 100 sec which means an average of 1 cap per sec you see that the max recharge rate is a bit less than 2.5 cap per sec. So your theoretical max capacitor recharge is about 2.4*(average recharge rate).
This is a theoretical max recharge rate expect it to appear a little less in reality.
Spanker I did indeed use matlab and you are right even if I am wrong about the formula it makes a little difference as it is close enough.
Joshua I'll get working on getting cuter.
__________
Capacitor research |
Kayinan Malrean
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Posted - 2004.10.18 13:11:00 -
[11]
Excellent job, especially the last picture is extremely good at showing the differences of the different cap and cap recharge mods.
Would be interesting to see the comparisons for the most obvious combinations as well. For instance, for 2xCap Relay vs. Cap Relay + Cap Battery vs. 2xPDU.
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Kayinan Malrean
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Posted - 2004.10.18 13:11:00 -
[12]
Excellent job, especially the last picture is extremely good at showing the differences of the different cap and cap recharge mods.
Would be interesting to see the comparisons for the most obvious combinations as well. For instance, for 2xCap Relay vs. Cap Relay + Cap Battery vs. 2xPDU.
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Dangard
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Posted - 2004.10.18 14:44:00 -
[13]
Excellent work Dust Puppy just the info iv been hunting for. Thanks a lot for taking the time to work the numbers.
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Dangard
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Posted - 2004.10.18 14:44:00 -
[14]
Excellent work Dust Puppy just the info iv been hunting for. Thanks a lot for taking the time to work the numbers.
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Grim Vandal
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Posted - 2004.10.18 14:51:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Grim Vandal on 18/10/2004 14:57:22
Edited by: Grim Vandal on 18/10/2004 14:54:51
"maximum cap" / "cap recharge" * 2,5 = your max cap recharge each sec
which is about at 30% of your maximum cap...
so if you want to sustain your setup make sure all your mods dont use more cap each sec as you get out of the calculation above...
another little hint which most of you prolly do know is to fit a LARGE cap battery on your cruiser...
anyway good job dust puppy
Greetings Grim |
Grim Vandal
|
Posted - 2004.10.18 14:51:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Grim Vandal on 18/10/2004 14:57:22
Edited by: Grim Vandal on 18/10/2004 14:54:51
"maximum cap" / "cap recharge" * 2,5 = your max cap recharge each sec
which is about at 30% of your maximum cap...
so if you want to sustain your setup make sure all your mods dont use more cap each sec as you get out of the calculation above...
another little hint which most of you prolly do know is to fit a LARGE cap battery on your cruiser...
anyway good job dust puppy
Greetings Grim |
Dust Puppy
|
Posted - 2004.10.18 16:23:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Dust Puppy on 18/10/2004 16:30:59
Be careful with that maximum cap recharge formula. If you look at the this figure again. Let's say we are going to see how much cap we can recharge in 12 seconds. Then the top curve applies. We can see that it can recharge about 28cap in 12 seconds. Now let's say we have a module that uses 28 cap every 12. So as long as we activate the module at 30% cap plus 28 (what the hell is the unit on cap anyway). Now the module shoot activate and after 12 seconds we have again reached 28 units above 30% cap so we can keep this module running indefinitly.
The problem how ever that if we don't activate the module at exactly the right time we can't get this recharge and eventually this module will drain the cap. So even if the formula says you can recharge 2.5x(max capacitor)/(recharge time) it is very improbable that you can maintain a module that requires that recharge time.
People have been saying for a while that the max recharge rate is something about 1.63x(max capacitor)/(recharge time) (I think that's it anyway I'm not really good at remembering numbers) which I don't doubt that it is a good number to use in practice.
What you can do though is to take a look at this picture. Now just to be on the safe site you decide to put in a "margin of error". For example let's say you lower the the constant in the max recharge rate formula to 2.0 then you know that between 15% cap and 55% cap your capacitor charges more than that.
Edit: @Kayinan Malrean, I thought about comparing combos of cap modules on certain ships but so far I've only been doing this manually. The combonations of modules are so large that I wouldn't even know how to begin. The best solutions would of course be to create a program where you could select a ship, modules and skills and make it plot the curves for you but I really don't have that much time to do it. Having said that then there is ofcourse nothing to stop anyone else from creating the program after all you all know the formula now.
__________
Capacitor research |
Dust Puppy
|
Posted - 2004.10.18 16:23:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Dust Puppy on 18/10/2004 16:30:59
Be careful with that maximum cap recharge formula. If you look at the this figure again. Let's say we are going to see how much cap we can recharge in 12 seconds. Then the top curve applies. We can see that it can recharge about 28cap in 12 seconds. Now let's say we have a module that uses 28 cap every 12. So as long as we activate the module at 30% cap plus 28 (what the hell is the unit on cap anyway). Now the module shoot activate and after 12 seconds we have again reached 28 units above 30% cap so we can keep this module running indefinitly.
The problem how ever that if we don't activate the module at exactly the right time we can't get this recharge and eventually this module will drain the cap. So even if the formula says you can recharge 2.5x(max capacitor)/(recharge time) it is very improbable that you can maintain a module that requires that recharge time.
People have been saying for a while that the max recharge rate is something about 1.63x(max capacitor)/(recharge time) (I think that's it anyway I'm not really good at remembering numbers) which I don't doubt that it is a good number to use in practice.
What you can do though is to take a look at this picture. Now just to be on the safe site you decide to put in a "margin of error". For example let's say you lower the the constant in the max recharge rate formula to 2.0 then you know that between 15% cap and 55% cap your capacitor charges more than that.
Edit: @Kayinan Malrean, I thought about comparing combos of cap modules on certain ships but so far I've only been doing this manually. The combonations of modules are so large that I wouldn't even know how to begin. The best solutions would of course be to create a program where you could select a ship, modules and skills and make it plot the curves for you but I really don't have that much time to do it. Having said that then there is ofcourse nothing to stop anyone else from creating the program after all you all know the formula now.
__________
Capacitor research |
Morning Maniac
|
Posted - 2004.10.18 18:15:00 -
[19]
And that's why Dust Puppy is our senior professor. Good job Dust!
MM
Channel "EVE University"
www.eve-university.cjb.net (ingame)
EVE University commercial |
Morning Maniac
|
Posted - 2004.10.18 18:15:00 -
[20]
And that's why Dust Puppy is our senior professor. Good job Dust!
MM
Channel "EVE University"
www.eve-university.cjb.net (ingame)
EVE University commercial |
Ebedar
|
Posted - 2004.10.18 18:30:00 -
[21]
 Originally by: Joshua Calvert
It's a shame you're not as cute as Carol Vorderman, Dust Puppy, or I'd be sexing you!
Susie Dent > Carol Vorderman
Oh and nice work Dust Puppy.
My life in pictures:
       |
Ebedar
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Posted - 2004.10.18 18:30:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Joshua Calvert
It's a shame you're not as cute as Carol Vorderman, Dust Puppy, or I'd be sexing you!
Susie Dent > Carol Vorderman
Oh and nice work Dust Puppy.
My life in pictures:
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Shimatu
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Posted - 2004.10.18 18:40:00 -
[23]
nice work :)
yeh, the problem with using 2.5 (or there abouts) is that if you drop to below 30% cap accidently (very easy to do...) youll then drain total. so your better of using about 2 or so.
btw, the 1.63 is i think the maximum for real life capacitors, though i could be wrong on that. (hmm, that sounds wrong actually. but 1.63 definately has something to do with them.)
3-I's T2 sales can be found HERE
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Shimatu
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Posted - 2004.10.18 18:40:00 -
[24]
nice work :)
yeh, the problem with using 2.5 (or there abouts) is that if you drop to below 30% cap accidently (very easy to do...) youll then drain total. so your better of using about 2 or so.
btw, the 1.63 is i think the maximum for real life capacitors, though i could be wrong on that. (hmm, that sounds wrong actually. but 1.63 definately has something to do with them.)
3-I's T2 sales can be found HERE
|
Spanker
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Posted - 2004.10.19 08:19:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Spanker on 19/10/2004 08:27:07
Originally by: Dust Puppy
what the hell is the unit on cap anyway
I think it's called farad.
Edit: After googling it, I found that 1F = 1C/V. That is, one farad equals one coulomb per volt (or one ampere second (As) per volt). Been a looong time though, must have been in h÷gstadiet :p
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Spanker
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Posted - 2004.10.19 08:19:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Spanker on 19/10/2004 08:27:07
Originally by: Dust Puppy
what the hell is the unit on cap anyway
I think it's called farad.
Edit: After googling it, I found that 1F = 1C/V. That is, one farad equals one coulomb per volt (or one ampere second (As) per volt). Been a looong time though, must have been in h÷gstadiet :p
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Dust Puppy
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Posted - 2004.10.19 09:25:00 -
[27]
Ah yes it is farad although that only tells us the attribute of the capacitor. Whether the capacitor is full or empty it is always X farads. We must be observing the electric potential over the capacitor.
This would be slightly less embarrassing if I hadn't got a B.Sc. in electrical engineering 
__________
Capacitor research |
Dust Puppy
|
Posted - 2004.10.19 09:25:00 -
[28]
Ah yes it is farad although that only tells us the attribute of the capacitor. Whether the capacitor is full or empty it is always X farads. We must be observing the electric potential over the capacitor.
This would be slightly less embarrassing if I hadn't got a B.Sc. in electrical engineering
__________
Capacitor research |
Elrathias
|
Posted - 2004.10.19 09:27:00 -
[29]
kth pwns ^^
"h÷gstadiet"
--------------------------
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Elrathias
|
Posted - 2004.10.19 09:27:00 -
[30]
kth pwns ^^
"h÷gstadiet"
--------------------------
|
Spanker
|
Posted - 2004.10.29 15:50:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Spanker on 29/10/2004 15:52:55
Bump People need to know how it is!
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Spanker
|
Posted - 2004.10.29 15:50:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Spanker on 29/10/2004 15:52:55
Bump People need to know how it is!
|
Shamis Orzoz
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Posted - 2004.10.29 17:33:00 -
[33]
Nicely done.
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Shamis Orzoz
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Posted - 2004.10.29 17:33:00 -
[34]
Nicely done.
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Imhotep Khem
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Posted - 2004.11.02 18:29:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Dust Puppy
Ah yes it is farad although that only tells us the attribute of the capacitor. Whether the capacitor is full or empty it is always X farads. We must be observing the electric potential over the capacitor.
This would be slightly less embarrassing if I hadn't got a B.Sc. in electrical engineering
The farad is one capacitor metric of behavior. What we are concerned about is of course, energy. You can measure the caps stored energy in the unit of your choice, Joule, Watt-hours, calories, etc. Probably the typical unit of measure is the joule.
Time to dust off those old text books (or cheat by using google) I got a BSEE as well.
____
If your not dyin' your not tryin'. |
Imhotep Khem
|
Posted - 2004.11.02 18:29:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Dust Puppy
Ah yes it is farad although that only tells us the attribute of the capacitor. Whether the capacitor is full or empty it is always X farads. We must be observing the electric potential over the capacitor.
This would be slightly less embarrassing if I hadn't got a B.Sc. in electrical engineering
The farad is one capacitor metric of behavior. What we are concerned about is of course, energy. You can measure the caps stored energy in the unit of your choice, Joule, Watt-hours, calories, etc. Probably the typical unit of measure is the joule.
Time to dust off those old text books (or cheat by using google) I got a BSEE as well.
____
If your not dyin' your not tryin'. |
blahh
|
Posted - 2004.11.08 16:48:00 -
[37]
Edited by: blahh on 08/11/2004 16:56:41
thanks for this.. extremely useful info 
Seems that if an apoc (or any ship really) depends on the regen at ~30% cap it could have its tanking capability severely disrupted with just one heavy nos.. could be taken down from running 2large 1 medium to barely sustaining 1 large repairer (unless they turn off a rep before its too late). People running ganking setups could probably make good use of this info
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blahh
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Posted - 2004.11.08 16:48:00 -
[38]
Edited by: blahh on 08/11/2004 16:56:41
thanks for this.. extremely useful info
Seems that if an apoc (or any ship really) depends on the regen at ~30% cap it could have its tanking capability severely disrupted with just one heavy nos.. could be taken down from running 2large 1 medium to barely sustaining 1 large repairer (unless they turn off a rep before its too late). People running ganking setups could probably make good use of this info
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Piscis
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Posted - 2004.11.30 11:23:00 -
[39]
Argh! Label the damn graphs! how are we supposed to know what all the units are!! :(
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Piscis
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Posted - 2004.11.30 11:23:00 -
[40]
Argh! Label the damn graphs! how are we supposed to know what all the units are!! :(
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Nyphur
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Posted - 2004.11.30 12:19:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Nyphur on 30/11/2004 12:30:23
Dude... You are the new king.. of everything.
As soon as I get home, I'm sending you 1million of my 3million ISK I have left.
You are a goddamn mathimagician! :D
EDIT: I'm totally printing this right now. I can't risk not being able to find the thread when I get home :P.
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Nyphur
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Posted - 2004.11.30 12:19:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Nyphur on 30/11/2004 12:30:23
Dude... You are the new king.. of everything.
As soon as I get home, I'm sending you 1million of my 3million ISK I have left.
You are a goddamn mathimagician! :D
EDIT: I'm totally printing this right now. I can't risk not being able to find the thread when I get home :P.
|
Noriath
|
Posted - 2004.11.30 12:53:00 -
[43]
Hmm... I kinda new that the cap recharged best around 30-40%, but I don't think the curve is perfectly acurate, because to me it seems that the last 10% of it take just about as long to recharge then the rest of the thing sometimes.
Still, good post, the graphs of how different modules change it around are very interesting. Can you make one that shows MWD also?
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Noriath
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Posted - 2004.11.30 12:53:00 -
[44]
Hmm... I kinda new that the cap recharged best around 30-40%, but I don't think the curve is perfectly acurate, because to me it seems that the last 10% of it take just about as long to recharge then the rest of the thing sometimes.
Still, good post, the graphs of how different modules change it around are very interesting. Can you make one that shows MWD also?
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Azure Skyclad
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Posted - 2004.11.30 14:23:00 -
[45]
If i lick the terminals...will it tingle?
La Maison de tous Les Plaisirs
Star Fraction
http://www.voodoorockers.co.uk/ |
Azure Skyclad
|
Posted - 2004.11.30 14:23:00 -
[46]
If i lick the terminals...will it tingle?
La Maison de tous Les Plaisirs
Star Fraction
http://www.voodoorockers.co.uk/ |
Dust Puppy
|
Posted - 2004.12.07 23:53:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Dust Puppy on 08/12/2004 01:00:21
First sorry for bumping this old thread but I felt like answering some questions and explain myself a little better.
Originally by: Piscis
Argh! Label the damn graphs! how are we supposed to know what all the units are!! :(
Yeah sorry about that I do tend to be a bit careless about labeling the graph and axis which is weird because I get really annoyed when other people don't do it.
Originally by: Noriath
Hmm... I kinda new that the cap recharged best around 30-40%, but I don't think the curve is perfectly acurate, because to me it seems that the last 10% of it take just about as long to recharge then the rest of the thing sometimes.
Still, good post, the graphs of how different modules change it around are very interesting. Can you make one that shows MWD also?
There is bound to be some error mostly because I used a timer and then took measurements every 10 seconds and then there is the fact that I have roughly 10 fps on my crappy computer. The numbers are actually more accurate then I would have expected.
Your perception on that the last 10% take about half the time recharging just further proves my case. If you look a the cap versus time graph you can see that it takes little less than 60 seconds to charge that battery to 90% and it isn't full until after just over 100 seconds.
I did do a graph with an mwd in it before I took the measurements needless to say the penalty for fitting an mwd is very high.
__________
Capacitor research |
Dust Puppy
|
Posted - 2004.12.07 23:53:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Dust Puppy on 08/12/2004 01:00:21
First sorry for bumping this old thread but I felt like answering some questions and explain myself a little better.
Originally by: Piscis
Argh! Label the damn graphs! how are we supposed to know what all the units are!! :(
Yeah sorry about that I do tend to be a bit careless about labeling the graph and axis which is weird because I get really annoyed when other people don't do it.
Originally by: Noriath
Hmm... I kinda new that the cap recharged best around 30-40%, but I don't think the curve is perfectly acurate, because to me it seems that the last 10% of it take just about as long to recharge then the rest of the thing sometimes.
Still, good post, the graphs of how different modules change it around are very interesting. Can you make one that shows MWD also?
There is bound to be some error mostly because I used a timer and then took measurements every 10 seconds and then there is the fact that I have roughly 10 fps on my crappy computer. The numbers are actually more accurate then I would have expected.
Your perception on that the last 10% take about half the time recharging just further proves my case. If you look a the cap versus time graph you can see that it takes little less than 60 seconds to charge that battery to 90% and it isn't full until after just over 100 seconds.
I did do a graph with an mwd in it before I took the measurements needless to say the penalty for fitting an mwd is very high.
__________
Capacitor research |
Skelator
|
Posted - 2004.12.08 00:49:00 -
[49]
Dust Puppy is Really Ken Jennings the Jeapordy champ 
They have us Surrounded again.. the Poor Bastards |
Skelator
|
Posted - 2004.12.08 00:49:00 -
[50]
Dust Puppy is Really Ken Jennings the Jeapordy champ
They have us Surrounded again.. the Poor Bastards |
babo
|
Posted - 2004.12.08 17:58:00 -
[51]
It was funny when I realized I have cap rechargers fitted that are worth more than the ship they are fitted to. All in the name of getting insanely low recharge times so I run a medium shield booster all day long a never come close to running out of cap :)
post screenshots |
babo
|
Posted - 2004.12.08 17:58:00 -
[52]
It was funny when I realized I have cap rechargers fitted that are worth more than the ship they are fitted to. All in the name of getting insanely low recharge times so I run a medium shield booster all day long a never come close to running out of cap :)
post screenshots |
Jhodas
|
Posted - 2004.12.09 15:39:00 -
[53]
Where the h3ll are th ISDs?
THIS NEEDS A STICKY DAMMIT!!!!!!1111ONEONEELEVEN
I got siggy!!
|
Jhodas
|
Posted - 2004.12.09 15:39:00 -
[54]
Where the h3ll are th ISDs?
THIS NEEDS A STICKY DAMMIT!!!!!!1111ONEONEELEVEN
I got siggy!!
|
Reptar
|
Posted - 2004.12.13 23:48:00 -
[55]
This was the sexesit bit of research I had ever seen in eve.
|
Reptar
|
Posted - 2004.12.13 23:48:00 -
[56]
This was the sexesit bit of research I had ever seen in eve.
|
qrac
|
Posted - 2004.12.14 00:59:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Reptar
This was the sexesit bit of research I had ever seen in eve.
i wonder who your alt is...
-------------------------------------------
Insanes numquam moriuntur! |
qrac
|
Posted - 2004.12.14 00:59:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Reptar
This was the sexesit bit of research I had ever seen in eve.
i wonder who your alt is...
-------------------------------------------
Insanes numquam moriuntur! |
Kelhund
|
Posted - 2004.12.14 21:00:00 -
[59]
SITCKY THIS!!!! NOW!!!! hehe GREAT research, helped me understand my Raven's cap just a bit more :)
|
Kelhund
|
Posted - 2004.12.14 21:00:00 -
[60]
SITCKY THIS!!!! NOW!!!! hehe GREAT research, helped me understand my Raven's cap just a bit more :)
|
Karol Kei
|
Posted - 2004.12.16 18:43:00 -
[61]
OMG
This is the most impressive thread I have ever crashed into.
A big honest and cordial thank you.
|
Karol Kei
|
Posted - 2004.12.16 18:43:00 -
[62]
OMG
This is the most impressive thread I have ever crashed into.
A big honest and cordial thank you.
|
Uchikage
|
Posted - 2004.12.16 19:58:00 -
[63]
Dust, to clean up the last graph a bit, which is a super graph, could you just compare cap relay and power diag vs the unmodified? Or at least make two seperate graphs for the midslot and lowslot cap-modifying items? It's kind of hard to see, but your graph makes PDU look like more of a solid mod than I thought before for helping cap.
_______________________________________________
"...which will become my sword in the very near future."
"Bish, you don't have a future."
Who Dares, Wins -SAS |
Uchikage
|
Posted - 2004.12.16 19:58:00 -
[64]
Dust, to clean up the last graph a bit, which is a super graph, could you just compare cap relay and power diag vs the unmodified? Or at least make two seperate graphs for the midslot and lowslot cap-modifying items? It's kind of hard to see, but your graph makes PDU look like more of a solid mod than I thought before for helping cap.
_______________________________________________
"...which will become my sword in the very near future."
"Bish, you don't have a future."
Who Dares, Wins -SAS |
Dust Puppy
|
Posted - 2004.12.16 20:22:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Uchikage
Dust, to clean up the last graph a bit, which is a super graph, could you just compare cap relay and power diag vs the unmodified? Or at least make two seperate graphs for the midslot and lowslot cap-modifying items? It's kind of hard to see, but your graph makes PDU look like more of a solid mod than I thought before for helping cap.
I can do that but just not right now as I'm stuck in a Java networking assignment and I just spent 2 hours looking for a bug in the wrong file
You'll just have to use this one. To be more clear then the lowest black one is the unmodified, the green one that has the highest max capacitor recharge rate is the cap power relay and the pdu is the magenta one in the middle that reaches nearly as high as the yellow cap flux coil and a bit lower than the red capacitor recharger.
your right the pdu does pretty well given that it also boosts your grid, shield and shield recharge but it is sadly the only viable low slot cap enhancing module we have. Although the cap flux coil does have a little higher max shield recharge rate it has a lot less cap.
Bah I'm going back to my programming I always meant to do a followup to this thread perhaps during christmas.
__________
Capacitor research |
Dust Puppy
|
Posted - 2004.12.16 20:22:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Uchikage
Dust, to clean up the last graph a bit, which is a super graph, could you just compare cap relay and power diag vs the unmodified? Or at least make two seperate graphs for the midslot and lowslot cap-modifying items? It's kind of hard to see, but your graph makes PDU look like more of a solid mod than I thought before for helping cap.
I can do that but just not right now as I'm stuck in a Java networking assignment and I just spent 2 hours looking for a bug in the wrong file
You'll just have to use this one. To be more clear then the lowest black one is the unmodified, the green one that has the highest max capacitor recharge rate is the cap power relay and the pdu is the magenta one in the middle that reaches nearly as high as the yellow cap flux coil and a bit lower than the red capacitor recharger.
your right the pdu does pretty well given that it also boosts your grid, shield and shield recharge but it is sadly the only viable low slot cap enhancing module we have. Although the cap flux coil does have a little higher max shield recharge rate it has a lot less cap.
Bah I'm going back to my programming I always meant to do a followup to this thread perhaps during christmas.
__________
Capacitor research |
Chade Malloy
|
Posted - 2004.12.16 21:10:00 -
[67]
awesome work, Dust
I never did the number crunching, i more like use a combination of instinct, trial and error when fitting my ships, so kudos to you
Patience wins. |
Chade Malloy
|
Posted - 2004.12.16 21:10:00 -
[68]
awesome work, Dust
I never did the number crunching, i more like use a combination of instinct, trial and error when fitting my ships, so kudos to you
Patience wins. |
belzebub1
|
Posted - 2004.12.20 18:30:00 -
[69]
Edited by: belzebub1 on 20/12/2004 18:34:28
/me Staggers away from the screen dazzeled by science.
Nice work Kind of helps me understand cap a bit more
EDIT I seem to have lost that spell checker button again DAM
![]()
Dont forget to visit Magma Index at the below Link.
http://www.magmaindex.uni.cc/ |
belzebub1
|
Posted - 2004.12.20 18:30:00 -
[70]
Edited by: belzebub1 on 20/12/2004 18:34:28
/me Staggers away from the screen dazzeled by science.
Nice work Kind of helps me understand cap a bit more
EDIT I seem to have lost that spell checker button again DAM
![]()
Dont forget to visit Magma Index at the below Link.
http://www.magmaindex.uni.cc/ |
olav zaragoth
|
Posted - 2004.12.21 02:30:00 -
[71]
sorry for bumping old threads, after reading through it i got a question:
You added Cap battery to the recharger types in your graph.
In the info to this item i only found that it increases the total or maximum amount of cap storage on your ship.
Does it also influence the recharge rate ?
|
olav zaragoth
|
Posted - 2004.12.21 02:30:00 -
[72]
sorry for bumping old threads, after reading through it i got a question:
You added Cap battery to the recharger types in your graph.
In the info to this item i only found that it increases the total or maximum amount of cap storage on your ship.
Does it also influence the recharge rate ?
|
Iratus Caelestis
|
Posted - 2004.12.23 13:43:00 -
[73]
The base recharge rate is cap capacity / time to recharge
Therefore if the cap capacity is higher then your base recharge rate is higher.
Nice to see this info, reminds me of A Level Math though which isn't a good thing.
|
Iratus Caelestis
|
Posted - 2004.12.23 13:43:00 -
[74]
The base recharge rate is cap capacity / time to recharge
Therefore if the cap capacity is higher then your base recharge rate is higher.
Nice to see this info, reminds me of A Level Math though which isn't a good thing.
|
Chris Henry
|
Posted - 2004.12.23 18:48:00 -
[75]
Excelent thread- thank you!!
Why hasnt this got a sticky already! Even for a week just for congratulations! CCP should have info like this on the site in the first place... If we can fly multi-million ISK ships you would have thought us as the RL pilots should know about things like this!!
---------------
A Puppet Master |
Chris Henry
|
Posted - 2004.12.23 18:48:00 -
[76]
Excelent thread- thank you!!
Why hasnt this got a sticky already! Even for a week just for congratulations! CCP should have info like this on the site in the first place... If we can fly multi-million ISK ships you would have thought us as the RL pilots should know about things like this!!
---------------
A Puppet Master |
kebab v2
|
Posted - 2004.12.25 20:09:00 -
[77]
is it safe to assume that perhaps the same basic formula is used to calculate sheild rechage rates?
|
kebab v2
|
Posted - 2004.12.25 20:09:00 -
[78]
is it safe to assume that perhaps the same basic formula is used to calculate sheild rechage rates?
|
Ankanos
|
Posted - 2004.12.26 02:10:00 -
[79]
Edited by: Ankanos on 26/12/2004 02:14:14
nice work dust puppy :)
you should look for posts by goldeneye on the eve-i.com forums.. he also
has done some nice work explaining the cap/charge rate issue.. with your knowledge & graphing skills
(add labels please ;p ),you two should get together and make a post that would be the final & definitive guide once and for all, for all of us who have scratched a hole in our heads trying to figure this out..
i think overall, the popular vote was that the capacitor
on eve ships is modeled almost exactly the same as a real life capacitor.
-and that the max recharge rate (iirc) comes into effect around 63%
and slows down when cap is =<30%
-ank
(edit)
found one post from goldeneye that goes into it a bit..(on eve-i)
Linkage 1
..and another
Linkage 2
he has posts in other threads as well..
hope this helps..
-ank
--- |
Ankanos
|
Posted - 2004.12.26 02:10:00 -
[80]
Edited by: Ankanos on 26/12/2004 02:14:14
nice work dust puppy :)
you should look for posts by goldeneye on the eve-i.com forums.. he also
has done some nice work explaining the cap/charge rate issue.. with your knowledge & graphing skills
(add labels please ;p ),you two should get together and make a post that would be the final & definitive guide once and for all, for all of us who have scratched a hole in our heads trying to figure this out..
i think overall, the popular vote was that the capacitor
on eve ships is modeled almost exactly the same as a real life capacitor.
-and that the max recharge rate (iirc) comes into effect around 63%
and slows down when cap is =<30%
-ank
(edit)
found one post from goldeneye that goes into it a bit..(on eve-i)
Linkage 1
..and another
Linkage 2
he has posts in other threads as well..
hope this helps..
-ank
--- |
Dust Puppy
|
Posted - 2004.12.26 17:20:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Chris Henry
CCP should have info like this on the site in the first place... If we can fly multi-million ISK ships you would have thought us as the RL pilots should know about things like this!!
My thoughts exactly. There are a number of things about the game we shouldn't be allowed to know behaviour of the capacitor, shield and guns should definitly be information that should be given to us.
Originally by: kebab v2
is it safe to assume that perhaps the same basic formula is used to calculate sheild rechage rates?
I think it's pretty safe to assume that. I do not know for sure but I would be surprised if the shield and the capacitor behaved differently.
Originally by: Ankanos
nice work dust puppy :)
you should look for posts by goldeneye on the eve-i.com forums.. he also
has done some nice work explaining the cap/charge rate issue.. with your knowledge & graphing skills
(add labels please ;p ),you two should get together and make a post that would be the final & definitive guide once and for all, for all of us who have scratched a hole in our heads trying to figure this out..
i think overall, the popular vote was that the capacitor
on eve ships is modeled almost exactly the same as a real life capacitor.
-and that the max recharge rate (iirc) comes into effect around 63%
and slows down when cap is =<30%
Yeah I've read some of Goldeneye's posts and he seems to know what he's talking about and not just about capacitor about lots of other stuff to. The only thing that does not make sense from him is that he assumes that when you increase capacitor the recharge rate stays the same. In order to do that the recharge time would be increased and I have not noticed this behaviour in cap batteries. He does however add some interesting points on how long the cap should last if you can't run all your stuff at once (see his first reply here)
__________
Capacitor research |
Dust Puppy
|
Posted - 2004.12.26 17:20:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Chris Henry
CCP should have info like this on the site in the first place... If we can fly multi-million ISK ships you would have thought us as the RL pilots should know about things like this!!
My thoughts exactly. There are a number of things about the game we shouldn't be allowed to know behaviour of the capacitor, shield and guns should definitly be information that should be given to us.
Originally by: kebab v2
is it safe to assume that perhaps the same basic formula is used to calculate sheild rechage rates?
I think it's pretty safe to assume that. I do not know for sure but I would be surprised if the shield and the capacitor behaved differently.
Originally by: Ankanos
nice work dust puppy :)
you should look for posts by goldeneye on the eve-i.com forums.. he also
has done some nice work explaining the cap/charge rate issue.. with your knowledge & graphing skills
(add labels please ;p ),you two should get together and make a post that would be the final & definitive guide once and for all, for all of us who have scratched a hole in our heads trying to figure this out..
i think overall, the popular vote was that the capacitor
on eve ships is modeled almost exactly the same as a real life capacitor.
-and that the max recharge rate (iirc) comes into effect around 63%
and slows down when cap is =<30%
Yeah I've read some of Goldeneye's posts and he seems to know what he's talking about and not just about capacitor about lots of other stuff to. The only thing that does not make sense from him is that he assumes that when you increase capacitor the recharge rate stays the same. In order to do that the recharge time would be increased and I have not noticed this behaviour in cap batteries. He does however add some interesting points on how long the cap should last if you can't run all your stuff at once (see his first reply here)
__________
Capacitor research |
Moominer
|
Posted - 2005.02.18 12:48:00 -
[83]
Edited by: Moominer on 18/02/2005 12:48:26
What is the function for the graph showing the recharge rate as a function of the state of the capacitor?
Shown in this graph?
I have been trying to derive this function from the original function of time, but my math is not really up to scratch, so any help is much appreciated.
|
Dust Puppy
|
Posted - 2005.02.20 23:00:00 -
[84]
Edited by: Dust Puppy on 20/02/2005 23:01:00
Originally by: Moominer
Edited by: Moominer on 18/02/2005 12:48:26
What is the function for the graph showing the recharge rate as a function of the state of the capacitor?
Shown in this graph?
I have been trying to derive this function from the original function of time, but my math is not really up to scratch, so any help is much appreciated.
Well you can start by differentiating the formula for capacitor capacity to get.
dc(t)/dt = tau*tanh(tau*t)/cosh(tau*t)
Then you isolate the t out of the formula for capacitor capacity to get
t = (1/tau)*acosh(1/(1-C/C_0)
Then all that is left is to stick in the t that we have isolated from the capacitor capacity formula and stick it in the formula for capacitor recharge rate and simplify. It's kind of pointless for me to show that though, come to think of it it's probably pointless to show you anything but the final solution Anyway I simplified it as much as I could and this is what I my result.
dc(C) = tau*(1-C/C_0)*sqrt(2*C/C_0 - (C/C_0)^2)
__________
Capacitor research |
FireFoxx80
|
Posted - 2005.02.24 14:28:00 -
[85]
C = C0(1-1/cosh(tau*t))
Forgive my math, but what does C0 stand for?
I am trying to create an excel spreadsheet so I can get optimal cap/shield recharge.
ex P-TMC
If you think you can do a better job, go find yourself a datacentre to host a box, get a copy of Visual Studio, and STFU.
|
Dust Puppy
|
Posted - 2005.02.25 02:05:00 -
[86]
Originally by: FireFoxx80
C = C0(1-1/cosh(tau*t))
Forgive my math, but what does C0 stand for?
I am trying to create an excel spreadsheet so I can get optimal cap/shield recharge.
C0 is the maximum capcitor capacity.
__________
Capacitor research |
Grismar
|
Posted - 2005.05.02 06:03:00 -
[87]
Edited by: Grismar on 02/05/2005 06:04:28
The one thing that scares me about research into the game this deep is that CCP may decide to change the rules on you at any time, obliterating the usefulness of the research... Had similar things happen with changing starmaps, imp distribution, bounty changes and agent changes to my database.
Don't get me wrong, not saying I disagree with any of the made changes, most improved balance or otherwise improved the game. Just saying that spending this much time and effort in investigating the game always keeps nagging at me as (unlike RL with science) none of the results will be permanently useful...
Rats - Corp/Implants - Agents |
Mindblank
|
Posted - 2005.05.02 10:42:00 -
[88]
Hey, I didn't know you could do stuff like this...better put your talets to good work within the corp :) (j/k)
Actually, really impressive work m8. I'll read through it all when I get home from work.
|
Dust Puppy
|
Posted - 2005.05.02 16:34:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Grismar
Edited by: Grismar on 02/05/2005 06:04:28
The one thing that scares me about research into the game this deep is that CCP may decide to change the rules on you at any time, obliterating the usefulness of the research... Had similar things happen with changing starmaps, imp distribution, bounty changes and agent changes to my database.
Don't get me wrong, not saying I disagree with any of the made changes, most improved balance or otherwise improved the game. Just saying that spending this much time and effort in investigating the game always keeps nagging at me as (unlike RL with science) none of the results will be permanently useful...
Yeah you are right about that. I can remember one good example about that there was this guy (forgotten his name ) that did massive testing on large guns. They guy probably spent hours on chaos shooting at a can and posted his results on this forum. Few months later the devs changed the tracking and falloff formula a bit so all his results were outdated. To be honest this research wasn't really that deep. The hardest thing was to guess the formula but once it was there the rest was quite easy since that I had just taken a course in numerical analysis.
Thank you Mindblank, on that note I was thinking about doing some number crunching on the new electronic warfare system
__________
Capacitor research |
Mindblank
|
Posted - 2005.05.02 19:54:00 -
[90]
Excellent! I can't wait for the results
|
Har Ganeth
|
Posted - 2005.05.06 16:18:00 -
[91]
Edited by: Har Ganeth on 06/05/2005 16:24:44
Looking at the graphs in this thread, I can't say I agree with the maths at all. From my experiments, the graph is not an exponential, but closer to a third order polynomial. I'll report back when i have some more, but im pretty sure what is said here is only a very rough approximation.
If indeed it were a third order polynomial, the cap recharge at any point would be given by dy/dx, which would be a quadratic (dy/dx again to find the stationary point and therefore the max recharge point...)
|
Har Ganeth
|
Posted - 2005.05.06 16:30:00 -
[92]
Actually, looks to me like it could be of order 5, which would make the recharge rate graph of order 4...
|
Pwn4ge P4nts
|
Posted - 2005.05.06 17:11:00 -
[93]
buhues,you math geeks take all the fun and "wtf-factor" out of it with your graphs and your formulas!!
Go awaaaaay.
All us hardcore alts despise math and anything remotely associated with it!!11one
|
Pwn4ge P4nts
|
Posted - 2005.05.06 17:22:00 -
[94]
Quote:
If indeed it were a third order polynomial, the cap recharge at any point would be given by dy/dx, which would be a quadratic (dy/dx again to find the stationary point and therefore the max recharge point...)
This is just gibberish! The Capacitor is a mythical beast, not to be trifled with! Several of my alten brethren have informed me that meddling around with forbidden Cap research caused the downfall of the mighty Curse Alliance!
|
Shidhe
|
Posted - 2005.05.06 17:30:00 -
[95]
And have another dark age? Kindle again the fires that destroyed the library of Alexandria?
|
Pwn4ge P4nts
|
Posted - 2005.05.06 17:40:00 -
[96]
Quote:
And have another dark age? Kindle again the fires that destroyed the library of Alexandria?
Sorry,never heard about that system/constellation.
|
Har Ganeth
|
Posted - 2005.05.06 18:04:00 -
[97]
Edited by: Har Ganeth on 06/05/2005 18:04:07
http://eek2.com/eve
Are a couple of graphs i've drawn. The data was gathered by emptying my cap and then checking the new level every 5 seconds. Obviously, it would be much more accurate to use a smaller interval, but it's hard to look at the stop watch, then the screen, then write the number down. :o
Then again, it could be an exponential, and i've just stumbled across a taylor expansion/approximation.
|
Dust Puppy
|
Posted - 2005.05.08 23:12:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Har Ganeth
Edited by: Har Ganeth on 06/05/2005 16:24:44
Looking at the graphs in this thread, I can't say I agree with the maths at all. From my experiments, the graph is not an exponential, but closer to a third order polynomial. I'll report back when i have some more, but im pretty sure what is said here is only a very rough approximation.
If indeed it were a third order polynomial, the cap recharge at any point would be given by dy/dx, which would be a quadratic (dy/dx again to find the stationary point and therefore the max recharge point...)
Actually the 5th order polynomial fits rather well. I fitted a fifth order polynomial to my measurements which you can see here. The problem I see with the capacitor recharge being a polynomial is that it's not a stable function. In the end it will always head towards infinity and it just seem slobby to have a function you need to stop.
The formula that is used in the game is really irrelevant as we just need a function that fits the "real" recharge curve well enough. The formula that I suggested fits well enough in my opinion.
I updated the figure showing the different modules which you can see here.
__________
Capacitor research |
Dust Puppy
|
Posted - 2005.05.08 23:13:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Pwn4ge P4nts
buhues,you math geeks take all the fun and "wtf-factor" out of it with your graphs and your formulas!!
Go awaaaaay.
All us hardcore alts despise math and anything remotely associated with it!!11one
That's ok we hardcore math geeks are not overly fond of alts either
__________
Capacitor research |
Matthew
|
Posted - 2005.05.09 14:05:00 -
[100]
Edited by: Matthew on 09/05/2005 14:05:04
Very nice work Dust Puppy 
Am looking into making a tanking simulator, and thus factoring in shield and cap recharges would be kinda useful.
My current plan is to simulate with a resolution of 1 second, using the equation you got of:
dc(C) = tau*(1-C/C_0)*sqrt(2*C/C_0 - (C/C_0)^2)
Obviously taking the cap/sec instantaneous recharge and applying that value for that 1 second.
What do you think of this plan? Would it be better to use C as the value at the start of the second, or at the end of the second (i.e. before or after all the drains get taken out)?
|
Dust Puppy
|
Posted - 2005.05.09 16:22:00 -
[101]
Edited by: Dust Puppy on 09/05/2005 16:22:19
Originally by: Matthew
Edited by: Matthew on 09/05/2005 14:05:04
Very nice work Dust Puppy
Thank you
Originally by: Matthew
Am looking into making a tanking simulator, and thus factoring in shield and cap recharges would be kinda useful.
My current plan is to simulate with a resolution of 1 second, using the equation you got of:
dc(C) = tau*(1-C/C_0)*sqrt(2*C/C_0 - (C/C_0)^2)
Obviously taking the cap/sec instantaneous recharge and applying that value for that 1 second.
What do you think of this plan? Would it be better to use C as the value at the start of the second, or at the end of the second (i.e. before or after all the drains get taken out)?
First thought to me is that it makes more sense to do the drain and then check the recharge rate. You should probably do both though and compare the results. If you are getting some big difference in results then give it some thought. If you are still undecided after that it's probably just best to increase the resolution (decrease maybe, well make it more accurate )
Look forward to see that tanking simulator
__________
Capacitor research |
Har Ganeth
|
Posted - 2005.05.09 17:21:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Dust Puppy
Actually the 5th order polynomial fits rather well. I fitted a fifth order polynomial to my measurements which you can see here. The problem I see with the capacitor recharge being a polynomial is that it's not a stable function. In the end it will always head towards infinity and it just seem slobby to have a function you need to stop.
The formula that is used in the game is really irrelevant as we just need a function that fits the "real" recharge curve well enough. The formula that I suggested fits well enough in my opinion.
I updated the figure showing the different modules which you can see here.
I suspect I may have just found (or got close to) the taylor approximation of the real function, rather than is actually being a 5 order polynomial. And as you say, it would be kind messy for the game to use a polynomial.
You've obviously put a lot of work into this (i've only spent about 30 minutes, and that included taking cap readings every 5 seconds etc...) and i look forward to seeing your tank simulator. :D
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Dust Puppy
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Posted - 2005.05.09 17:44:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Har Ganeth
I suspect I may have just found (or got close to) the taylor approximation of the real function, rather than is actually being a 5 order polynomial. And as you say, it would be kind messy for the game to use a polynomial.
You've obviously put a lot of work into this (i've only spent about 30 minutes, and that included taking cap readings every 5 seconds etc...) and i look forward to seeing your tank simulator. :D
I'm not totally sure that I have the exact formula and I won't get offended if someone brings a better fit than the formula that I offered because I know I'm pretty close even if I'm not spot on
In fact if someone has an idea about a curve that could be a better match then by all means post it here and I'll check it fits better.
Also it's Matthew that's doing the tanking simulator
__________
Capacitor research |
Flash Landsraad
|
Posted - 2005.05.10 08:58:00 -
[104]
Very nice work.
________________________________________________
Stop Whining!!!
Level  Superiority |
Matthew
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Posted - 2005.05.10 11:05:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Dust Puppy
First thought to me is that it makes more sense to do the drain and then check the recharge rate. You should probably do both though and compare the results.
That's what I was thinking, was just asking in case you'd noticed it one way or the other during your testing.
Originally by: Dust Puppy
If you are getting some big difference in results then give it some thought. If you are still undecided after that it's probably just best to increase the resolution (decrease maybe, well make it more accurate )
That'll be decrease the interval to increase the resolution I'm hoping not to have to go too fine with the resolution. Would be nice to keep this thing running fairly fast, but if it's needed, it'll happen.
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Mr Raine
|
Posted - 2005.05.10 11:28:00 -
[106]
woooossssshhhhhh... what was that that went over my head,
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Marion Quicksilver
|
Posted - 2005.05.11 06:47:00 -
[107]
From one nerd to another... the world needs more of us.
The complexity of the game is the main reason I play.
Keep it up.
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poisoner orbius
|
Posted - 2005.06.11 06:06:00 -
[108]
friendly bump
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Nytemaster
|
Posted - 2005.07.14 09:41:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Dust Puppy
Edited by: Dust Puppy on 18/10/2004 11:22:24
One of the most complicated part of your ship is your capacitor. Most of the pilots in EVE have probably made the mistake of fitting their ship to perfection only to realize in battle that they don't have the juice to run it all.
This is all fine and dandy, but I have no clue what all these variables are nor how I could put them in a simple f(x) function for graphing. I would like to know this exact formula so I can play around with the numbers a bit.
Nytemaster
Mega-Deth |
Dust Puppy
|
Posted - 2005.07.14 09:49:00 -
[110]
Edited by: Dust Puppy on 14/07/2005 09:50:20
Originally by: Nytemaster
This is all fine and dandy, but I have no clue what all these variables are nor how I could put them in a simple f(x) function for graphing. I would like to know this exact formula so I can play around with the numbers a bit.
Capacitor capacity vs. time
C = C_0(1-1/cosh(tau*t))
Recharge rate vs. time
dc(t)/dt = tau*tanh(tau*t)/cosh(tau*t)
Recharge rate vs. Capacitor capacity
dc(C) = tau*(1-C/C_0)*sqrt(2*C/C_0 - (C/C_0)^2)
C_0 is the maximum capacity of the capacitor
tau is 4.8/T => T = average recharge rate
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Therian
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Posted - 2005.07.28 05:44:00 -
[111]
As the Guinness guys say in the TV commercials, "BRILLIANT!"
I had messed around with exponentials, but never considered the hyperbolic trig functions, since I haven't studied them (although they really are exponentials in disguise ). Most of my number work revolved around the profits from POS when they came out, and now the numbers for production and profits currently.
Props to Dust Puppy, minus the unlabeled graphs (I lost points in class all the time for that). My Raven shall be happy again
________________________________
Therian
Dreamscape Chief Financial Officer
Director of Manufacturing and Sales |
B0rn2KiLL
|
Posted - 2005.09.30 04:28:00 -
[112]
le bump
---
When It Absolutely Positively Has To Be Desotroyed. |
Distran
|
Posted - 2005.10.20 22:41:00 -
[113]
Nice work. I'm actually surprised that no one's written a program to pull out the actual values from the capacitor at extremely tiny intervals of time to get a more clear graph and thus a better equation approximation. Not sure how legal that would be, but you'd just pulling info that's already available, just hard to record properly manually...
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Stephen HB
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Posted - 2005.10.21 02:05:00 -
[114]
Resurrecting old threads is bad mmmkay?
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"Who is the more foolish, the fool or the fool who follows him?" Obi-Wan Kenobi |
Megadon
|
Posted - 2005.10.21 05:42:00 -
[115]
Edited by: Megadon on 21/10/2005 05:42:24
Originally by: Azure Skyclad
If i lick the terminals...will it tingle?
Hahaha lmao
It will cook your tongue
|
ELECTR0FREAK
|
Posted - 2005.10.21 08:47:00 -
[116]
Power to the math nerds of EVE.
:Looks meaningfully at his sig:
-Electrofreak
Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula |
B0rn2KiLL
|
Posted - 2005.10.21 12:53:00 -
[117]
well im no math wiz and half that stuff is jeberish to me, but it helped me map a mental image of my capacitor and its recharge rate. now i turn on certain modules at a certain percentageo f the capacitor, makes them last 3 times as long :)
good work dude.
---
When It Absolutely Positively Has To Be Desotroyed. |
NupNQ
|
Posted - 2005.11.24 12:05:00 -
[118]
has anybody thought about frapsing the exact numbers of the cap and then write the numbers down bei playing the vid picture by picture?
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CaseyLance
|
Posted - 2005.12.07 12:54:00 -
[119]
Yes I have, but the results are not very surprising. I get here errors btw the calculated and measured graph > 5% which is bad. I will post more if
1. have more time to investigate what the error is.
2. my new computer arives, my current one is broken :-(
But you out there can help Dust Puppy (and me ;) ) if you fraps your empty cap when it reloads and post your skill level which gives you cap boost (sry I don't have it right here but there is at least one skill). Then write down the frame number which the change of the cap display accours and the cap status (in cap units not in percent!!)
Maybe with virtualdub (use google).
Just a realy quick suggestion, look at nr.2 why I don't have much time ;)
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CaseyLance
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Posted - 2005.12.08 19:32:00 -
[120]
Ok now I can be a lil more informative.
The Formula works for me 100% if there are no bonuses involved.
But if i try to add bonuses sth realy goes wrong.
dc(t)/dt = c_0*(1+bonus)*sinh(tau*t)*tau/(cosh(tau*t)^2);
Because it says it gives 5% recharge rate bonus (energy system operation skill, which i have to lvl 3) i set bonus to 0.15 and tau = k / (recharge_time*(1-bonus)). So i integrated the formula above, just a lil mind jugling ^^
c(t) = c_0.*(1-(1+bonus)./cosh(tau.*t));
Ok, this work 100% correct (as said i frapsd a recharge and yield an error less than 1%), but when it comes to bonuses i get errors around 5% which indicates that sth is realy wrong or I have measured sooo badly ;).
Maybe someone could look over this and give me a tip ... !
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CaseyLance
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Posted - 2005.12.11 11:38:00 -
[121]
Ok enough confusion, the formula above works perfectly. My error was to align the measured graph and calcuated graph correctly. Since you cannot measure from cap = 0.
I only checked the formula above with the skill bonuses, but i think this will also go well with module recharge bonuses (don't forget the stacking penalty)
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masterjob
|
Posted - 2006.03.08 13:57:00 -
[122]
I can't make alot of this..
so can I now calculate when my ship can recharge the best
I really need to see that though
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masterjob
|
Posted - 2006.03.08 13:58:00 -
[123]
and how can I fill in that formula what exactly must I fill in.. and what do I get to see
if it works?
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Eat'me
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Posted - 2006.03.08 14:33:00 -
[124]
Bunch of geeks...all off you
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Night Swordstrike
|
Posted - 2006.03.08 15:13:00 -
[125]
Execellent job on the Capacitor recharge rate. I had done some testing as I wanted to figure out DPS my ship could take (by writing a program that takes Cap use, damage type, and resists into account). Your graph is supported by the data I collected.
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Skravos
|
Posted - 2006.03.22 16:37:00 -
[126]
All these calculations, all these huge brains... I wish it meant something to me besides being involved in a game that I'm not smart enough to play 
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Detrol
|
Posted - 2006.03.22 22:24:00 -
[127]
Edited by: Detrol on 22/03/2006 22:25:18
It's all in there somewhere but your cap recharge is optimal when it's around 30 percent full... lower then that and cap recharge really starts to hit rock bottom.
Around the 30 percent mark, your cap recharge is roughly 2.5 times your (linearly calculated) cap recharge (being total cap/recharge time)
So if you have 1000 cap size, 100s cap recharge time, you would have a linear recharge of 10 cap/sec.... however, because cap recharge is not linear, around 30 percent your cap recharge will be 2.5 times 10cap/s or around 25 cap/s.
Cap recharge as function of cap level is shown here:
Linky
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Sepul Marius
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Posted - 2006.03.23 00:10:00 -
[128]
Fantastic work Dust Puppy. The graphs bear out what I'd noticed in my (admittedly brief) experiences in-game, and back up the tactics I've been using with hard math (complete with graphs, yay!). Now I can worry far less when firing up my shield boosters with 1/3 of my cap remaining.
What would be interesting to see would be a non-skilled comparison of drain/charge rates under the influence of certain long-on modules, like AB's, etc. to see if there is any significant deflection in the #'s. I'd assume not, and that it would still be ideal to use higher-load intermittent mods (reps, boosters, etc.) at about the 30% mark as shown.
-Sepul
t1 modded rifter ftw
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Myrk Reinhart
|
Posted - 2006.04.18 21:58:00 -
[129]
I love this post
But for practical reasons i always use 2.4 as multiplyer for optimal recharge. Reason for this that 2.5 only excist in a small window while 2.4 is true for a better part of your cap between 30% and 40%.
I never undock any ship at all before i have done calculations on cap usage/recharge for the ship with that current setup. that include EW, guns and all (and pack the ammo you can sustain fireing as primary ammo) (i'm gallente and AM is nice but you need to have enough cap to use it)
CAP IS LIFE.
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CaseusFeles
|
Posted - 2006.04.18 22:00:00 -
[130]
Originally by: Mr Raine
woooossssshhhhhh... what was that that went over my head,
This stuff is actually all pretty interesting for a physics student; nice to see that boring electrical properties stuff put to good use.
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Riebart Norith
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Posted - 2006.06.22 04:40:00 -
[131]
I guess this may qualify as a bump, but with good reason. I've noticed many people talking about how computationally intensive this is, and they are right. That formula is insanely computationally intensive, compared to something like a third order polynomial. I won't go into detail, but there is really good evidence to suggest that the actual recharge rate is a third order polynomial, since if you plot F(x)=12x(x-1)^2, you get a curve that levels off at 1 (Consider that 100% full), with a recharge rate of zero (As we'd expect, since it is full), and with a max recharge rate at 1/3 = 33.33% which is right around the experienced 30% mark. As well, consider the plot of it's integral, as we see that we get a curve that levels off at 1 (100%), which could represent 100% complete charge. Also, this is much less computationally intensive, and significantly simpler than something involving trig functions.
I don't have any data to back up this wild claim.....yet. I will be running tests and gathering data, but for now all I have is this claim.
Now, in this thread, I could be taken as a heretic (Heck, that's been the case on every one of my other posts), but for now I would be happy to hear some constructive criticism.
Thanks
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Adila
|
Posted - 2006.06.22 06:31:00 -
[132]
Edited by: Adila on 22/06/2006 06:35:31
Originally by: Matthew
What do you think of this plan? Would it be better to use C as the value at the start of the second, or at the end of the second (i.e. before or after all the drains get taken out)?
IMO you would be better off calculating both and using the smaller value, as pessimistic results are in general more useful.
@the op: high resolution data should be relatively easy to generate. Just write a simple app to record the timing interval of keystrokes and then press a key each time your capacitor ôticksö upà of course this assumes that each tick gives a constant amount of cap, which may be a bad assumption.
Quote:
I've noticed many people talking about how computationally intensive this is, and they are right.
there is no reason that whatever function they are using couldn't be driven acceptably by a relatively small lookup table... given that I donÆt think that computational expense is really a factor.
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Julie Daichupe
|
Posted - 2006.06.23 16:36:00 -
[133]
Edited by: Julie Daichupe on 23/06/2006 16:44:55
Edited by: Julie Daichupe on 23/06/2006 16:41:16
Well, lookup tables or no, wouldn't it make sense to use a continuous function instead of keeping a ton of lookup tables in memory? I'm sure CCP has better ways of using that RAM than lookup tables for cap recharge rates. Especially considering the huge number of variations given by skills, modules, ships, etc. So, I could be wrong, but I'm going to go ahead and see if this cubic fits anyway.
Edit: Oh, and in case anyone was wondering about resolution (This has probably been posted already, and I just missed it), the ingame cap readout has a resolution of 1 second, and (I believe) it rounds off decimal places. So, the resolution you get for measurements can be no better than 1 second. As for capturing the data at that resolution, shouldn't be hard. I find Jasc PSP works beautifully (Set up an import from screen cap at an interval of 1 second).
Edit2: And the ingame cap readout rounds instead of truncates...I think. I could be wrong. The skill points round, so I only assume the cap does too.....however, that is far more computationally intensive than truncating, so I could very well be wrong.
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Deren Thaldrel
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Posted - 2006.06.23 16:57:00 -
[134]
Edited by: Deren Thaldrel on 23/06/2006 16:57:07
This is very interesting, sorry to bump old threads but this is great reading for us n00bs ;). Additionally... is it just me or is the capacitor recharge behaviour nearly identical to shield recharge behaviour? See Pottsey's Passive Shield Tanking Guide
Thoughts?
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Riebart Norith
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Posted - 2006.06.26 03:02:00 -
[135]
Hmm, I haven't looked at the Shield recharge at all, but it is possible that it follows the same model. I'll look into it after I satisfy myself with an answer I derive. If my answer agrees with that of Dust Puppy, then I will have no problems saying he beat me to it. However if it differs, I'd be curious as to how much.
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Riebart Norith
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Posted - 2006.06.26 04:10:00 -
[136]
Oh, and just a comment to Dust Puppy on his model. Congratulations on all the work, definitely some solid stuff there. Have you had any formal training in calculus at a university or College level? Anyway, onto my real point.
The first thing I'm noticing about his Hyperbolic Cosine solution is that it's inflection point (I.e: Point of maximum recharge) occurs at about 18% charged, as opposed to the observed 30-35% that we observe it at.
I also took some measurements from a nearly empty cap at 1 second intervals and they are nice to get the general shape of the curve, but as for solving things, they are pretty useless since we get integer values only. If there was a way to get even a single decimal place (Consistently) then we'd be laughing and have a 99.8% accurate esitmate. If someone knows of a way, I'd be more than happy to hear.
So, now, here is my proposed solution (And it appears that my previous assumption about the cubic may be somewhat off, but we'll find out more soon): If we denote Y[t] to be our function of time that returns the current cap value (Since that is the only one we can measure, and therefore plot against), T to be the recharge time, and C to be the max cap value when full, then we know the following:
Y[0] = 0 (At 0 seconds after the cap is empty...it is still empty)
Y[T] = C (When it is done recharging, it is full)
Y'[T] = 0 (When it is done recharging, it is momentarily no longer charging, which explains why it takes so long to recharge that last 15%)
Y''[K] = 0 (We get our Inflection point [I.e. point of maximum recharge] at time K seconds after it is empty, and Y[K] = C/3)
There are most likely others, but I'll work with these for now. If anyone else knows of something, please let me know.
From this information, we can solve for 4 constants, and so get ourselves a cubic polynomial.
This is all preliminary, but I figure if someone was going to thinkg of something before me, it would be you guys, so thoughts and ideas are appreciated.
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Silver Night
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Posted - 2006.06.26 07:05:00 -
[137]
Think maybe CCP took the hyperbolic function (Capacitor recharge is exponential IRL, but as was mentioned, Hyperbolic is exponential in disguise), and found some nth order polynomial (3rd?) that fit 'well enough' to use for computational reasons? I'm no expert like you all of course, 2nd year physics and math stuff, but that would kinda make sense. Always just figured that cap was exponential, and shield. But I never did check with hard numbers.
You guys are awesome.
--------------
Director.
GLS Mr. State
Caldari Patriot.
Murderer of (his own) Frigates.
|
Dust Puppy
|
Posted - 2006.06.26 09:15:00 -
[138]
Riebart, I have a B.Sc. in Electronic Engineering which involves a fair bit of calculus. Also the peak happens at around 18% time, that is if you would leave the capacitor empty you would notice the peak when about 18% of the recharge time has passed but by then the capacitor will be around 30% full.
Whether I'm right or wrong about the formula is really irrelevant. Actually the chances of me "guessing" the right formula is pretty slim, it must be thousunds of formula that actually fit that curve. The important part is really that this is close enough that it makes no difference, at least not in practice. Well in practice then I guess all you need to know is the maximum possible recharge rate and when it occurs, which people already kind of knew by observation.
Original Mr Floppyknickers sig |
Pottsey
|
Posted - 2006.06.26 09:57:00 -
[139]
ôHmm, I haven't looked at the Shield recharge at all, but it is possible that it follows the same model. I'll look into it after I satisfy myself with an answer I derive.ö
Shields are based on the same module but itÆs not 100% the same. My research shows it peaks out a little higher at x2.5. I am interested and willing to help any research done into shields.
Passive shield tanking guide, click here. |
Riebart Norith
|
Posted - 2006.06.27 00:22:00 -
[140]
Oops, yes, so I see Dust Puppy. Sorry. I keep forgetting that we are looking at a Cap vs. Time graph. But, plugging in we get it at %29-ish charged, as you say in your first post. And I am familiar with the amount of calculus involved in an Engineering degree as I have several friends getting such a degree. I myself am moving ito my third year of Honours Mathematics, so I've got my own mathematical background.
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Curzon Dax
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2006.12.01 12:48:00 -
[141]
This great wonderful thread that someone just pointed me to shouldn't be allowed to die!
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Laboratus
Gallente
BGG
Freelancer Alliance
|
Posted - 2006.12.05 00:05:00 -
[142]
I'm impressed.
Good job with the OP.
___
P.S.
Post with your main.
Mind control and tin hats |
The CaPoNe
Cataclysm Enterprises
Dusk and Dawn
|
Posted - 2007.02.24 19:18:00 -
[143]
Nice Thread. :) but i got 2 questions. maybe someone can help me with this.
Originally by: Dust Puppy
tau is 4.8/T => T = average recharge rate
how i can calculate the average Recharge Rate?
since most if the formulas require them. at the mom i use tau=4.8/recharge time.
how bad is my tau?
another question is in borland delphi im do for example for i:= 1 to (recharge time).
but im not able to make value like 710.85 i need to round it up. how bad its for my calcs?
sry for necro. this thread :)
_________________________________________________
Best Regards
The CaPoNe
|
Foolish Bob
Caldari
State War Academy
|
Posted - 2007.05.06 11:27:00 -
[144]
geeky sidebar:
someone might want to double check to make sure, but I was playing around with the cap formula whilst thinking about bonuses, and I suddenly noticed that with a bit of judicious redefining, you can express the recharge rate as a function of time as
Rate=tau*sqrt(Cr^2-Cr^4)
where tau is as defined by OP and Cr is the fraction of Cap that is empty ( (1-C/C0) in OP speak)
which has to my mind three main advantages going for it: first, it's not so intensive to calculate; second it fits the paradigm of how CCP seem to work things out (qv connections and shield hardeners); and finally, it yields a max recharge rate (independant of tau) when your cap is at (1-1/sqrt(2)) (just shy of 30%) capacity which fits with observed facts (always useful when formulating an hypothesis)
anyway, check it out for yourselves. There was no fermat moment of insight so you should be able to get there too but I don't want to risk contaminating the verification, so I'll only give pointers if you're really stumped.
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000Hunter000
Gallente
Magners Marauders
|
Posted - 2007.06.10 20:56:00 -
[145]
oh brother, i allready had a headache but now i read this thread it's gotten worse LOL!!!!
might try reading (and hopefully comprehencing) this tomorrow again.
CCP, let us pay the online shop with Direct Debit!!!
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Acacia Everto
|
Posted - 2007.06.11 03:21:00 -
[146]
Edited by: Acacia Everto on 11/06/2007 03:21:11
Originally by: Foolish Bob
geeky sidebar:
someone might want to double check to make sure, but I was playing around with the cap formula whilst thinking about bonuses, and I suddenly noticed that with a bit of judicious redefining, you can express the recharge rate as a function of time as
Rate=tau*sqrt(Cr^2-Cr^4)
where tau is as defined by OP and Cr is the fraction of Cap that is empty ( (1-C/C0) in OP speak)
which has to my mind three main advantages going for it: first, it's not so intensive to calculate; second it fits the paradigm of how CCP seem to work things out (qv connections and shield hardeners); and finally, it yields a max recharge rate (independant of tau) when your cap is at (1-1/sqrt(2)) (just shy of 30%) capacity which fits with observed facts (always useful when formulating an hypothesis)
anyway, check it out for yourselves. There was no fermat moment of insight so you should be able to get there too but I don't want to risk contaminating the verification, so I'll only give pointers if you're really stumped.
Hmm...this formula isn't working quite right for me if I plug in tau as defined on the first page (tau = 4.8/recharge_time), however substituting tau for a simple 4.8 (k as defined by Dust Puppy's initial post) returns 2.399 as a recharge rate. Now 2.4 was originally proposed for the modifier on the average recharge time to find peak regeneration (i.e. 2.4(capacity/recharge_time) = peak regen at 30%). Is this what was intended by your formula? Rather than returning an actual rate in capacitor per second, it would provide a coefficient for the average recharge rate, therefore effectively making the true "recharge rate" in capactor per second 4.8*sqrt(Cr^2-Cr^4)(C0/T), where T is the time for the capacitor to recharge from 0, C0 is capacitor capacity, and Cr is the operation (1-C/C0).
If this was your intention for the formula, I recall that further data had led to the conclusion that 2.5 was the max coefficient at peak capacitor regen. This formula would seem to suggest that 2.4 was indeed the correct peak coefficient. When changing tau to 5 however, the formula returns 2.499, supporting the coefficient suggested earlier.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, as I really would like to learn how this formula works. Some of my statement is conjecture, and I've yet to have study much of the math involved in this thread; I'm currently entering Pre-Calculus.
If I may say, that formula seems much more like something CCP would use (And who wouldn't? It takes much less computation.)
Nice work, and that goes for everyone in this thread. It certainly was an interesting read.
|
Deschenus Maximus
Amarr
Digital Fury Corporation
Digital Renegades
|
Posted - 2007.06.11 05:10:00 -
[147]
I took one look at this, and my brain imploded.
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tarin adur
Gallente
Einherjar Rising
|
Posted - 2007.06.11 05:13:00 -
[148]
Originally by: Deschenus Maximus
I took one look at this, and my brain imploded.
Lol ditto
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Acacia Everto
State War Academy
|
Posted - 2007.06.20 03:43:00 -
[149]
Bump...want to see if my guess is correct.
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Foolish Bob
Caldari
The Shaw
THE R0CK
|
Posted - 2007.08.12 09:55:00 -
[150]
To be clear, my formula is in no way empirical - I was playing with the derivative of the OP's formula and it just kind of popped out. I should also note that I made everything fractional to help make sure that I didn't make any mistakes with the homogeneity of the equation - that's why there's no reference to C0 - should have made that clearer, sorry.
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ThaMa Gebir
Gallente
Raddick Explorations
Executive Outcomes
|
Posted - 2007.08.12 10:32:00 -
[151]
My god, Eve-online really is the only game on the planet the players can do this sort of maths and where they understand the joke the devs had with the thermodynamics skill description.
----------------------------
Confirmed heaviest member of RDEX........
Hah, no more hijacks here. |
Malarkin
|
Posted - 2007.11.24 15:00:00 -
[152]
Sweet Jesus. My head just exploded.
Can someone please distill the previous 4 pages of Stephen Hawking's notebook into a short summary of what it means and how we can use it to our benefit in Eve?
Thanks, and give Mr. Hawking his notebook back!!
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Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2007.11.24 15:32:00 -
[153]
Originally by: The CaPoNe
Nice Thread. :) but i got 2 questions. maybe someone can help me with this.
Originally by: Dust Puppy
tau is 4.8/T => T = average recharge rate
how i can calculate the average Recharge Rate?
Cap Size/Cap Recharge == Average Recharge Rate.
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Tyranis Marcus
|
Posted - 2007.11.26 06:27:00 -
[154]
Edited by: Tyranis Marcus on 26/11/2007 06:28:12
<<<The farad is one capacitor metric of behavior. What we are concerned about is of course, energy. You can measure the caps stored energy in the unit of your choice, Joule, Watt-hours, calories, etc. Probably the typical unit of measure is the joule.
Time to dust off those old text books (or cheat by using google) I got a BSEE as well.>>>
Damned awesome thread. Nice work, man.
Has anyone mentioned the Coulomb, yet, as the basic unit of electrical charge? It equals the charge in 6.241506+10^18 electrons. It's a nice unit to use for calculating what's stored in a cap in the real world.
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Foolish Bob
Caldari
The Shaw
THE R0CK
|
Posted - 2007.12.19 12:45:00 -
[155]
Edited by: Foolish Bob on 19/12/2007 12:45:42
The details of the formula are fairly irrelevant to most people, but as it applies to shields and capacitors both, the implications are useful. It's been known for a while that recharge rate is non-linear, so if you're in a drake, for eg, it's nice to put a firm number to the amount of damage you can soak up - in this case, a little fiddling gives you
Tank(damage_type)=(k/(2*(1-res)))*(HP/T)
where res is your shild resistance, HP is your max shield strength and T is your recharge time.
The same is true when asking yourself if you can run all your mods/guns without boosters.
Originally by: Malarkin
Sweet Jesus. My head just exploded.
Can someone please distill the previous 4 pages of Stephen Hawking's notebook into a short summary of what it means and how we can use it to our benefit in Eve?
Thanks, and give Mr. Hawking his notebook back!!
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