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Brock Nelson Caldari Flux Technologies Inc	Posted - 2009.09.24 01:04:00 - [31] Edited by: Brock Nelson on 24/09/2009 01:06:32 Because when I raised the issue 6 months ago, nobody listened, so I let it go because I wasn't involved with it other than auditing it. Now, I'm not raising it, a few people is raising the issue and I'm just jumping on the same train that I got on 6 months ago... Edit: btw, I noticed that you haven't said anything about you losing 50 billion...
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.09.24 01:11:00 - [32] Originally by: Brock Nelson Edited by: Brock Nelson on 24/09/2009 01:06:32 Because when I raised the issue 6 months ago, nobody listened, so I let it go because I wasn't involved with it other than auditing it. Now, I'm not raising it, a few people is raising the issue and I'm just jumping on the same train that I got on 6 months ago... Edit: btw, I noticed that you haven't said anything about you losing 50 billion... fair enough mate :) if you feel you wherent listened to its more than ok to bring your points forward again :) @ your edit: thats funny because i remember answering that question and saying SOMETHING about myself losing 50B around 2009.06.02 21:16:00 thats 4 mths ago! LINKAGE
Brock Nelson Caldari Flux Technologies Inc	Posted - 2009.09.24 01:23:00 - [33] Edited by: Brock Nelson on 24/09/2009 01:24:45 So, why didn't you issue shares to yourself for that 50billion back then? Oh right, it's to inflate the share prices. When the time comes to end the IPO, you'll issue yourself shares and the share price will drop to what it was before, give or take. Edit: (**ing 5min timer) Originally by:** Ji Sama i dont understand what it is you dont get, and of course i will refer you to an old post, because i stand by what was said. was it smart? that can always be discussed. i did what i did. period. to answer your question: YES Your old post said that you will issue shares to yourself and now you're not going to issue yourself shares?
Solisk Gallente HyperFang Aquisitions And Logistics New Eden Retail Federation	Posted - 2009.09.24 01:23:00 - [34] Edited by: Solisk on 24/09/2009 01:23:34 Originally by: Ji Sama Originally by: Brock Nelson Edited by: Brock Nelson on 24/09/2009 01:06:32 Because when I raised the issue 6 months ago, nobody listened, so I let it go because I wasn't involved with it other than auditing it. Now, I'm not raising it, a few people is raising the issue and I'm just jumping on the same train that I got on 6 months ago... Edit: btw, I noticed that you haven't said anything about you losing 50 billion... fair enough mate :) if you feel you wherent listened to its more than ok to bring your points forward again :) @ your edit: thats funny because i remember answering that question and saying SOMETHING about myself losing 50B around 2009.06.02 21:16:00 thats 4 mths ago! LINKAGE Quote: First off.. TMP Industries is CURRENTLY offering buyback @ 95% ie. 475K per share. Its also stated that when this whole thing is over, i and perhaps other key persons will be taking an unspecified share of TMP Industries. But yes, if i dont take a piece of TMP Industries when it closes shop, i will effectively be out of 50B..... If the NAV is 74.5b, then wouldn't 95% of the share price be 1.44m/share? Also, you didn't say that you lost 50b. You said that if you don't take a piece of TMP Industries when it closes shop you will be effectively out of 50b.
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.09.24 01:32:00 - [35] Edited by: Ji Sama on 24/09/2009 01:33:14 Originally by: Solisk Edited by: Solisk on 24/09/2009 01:23:34 Originally by: Ji Sama Originally by: Brock Nelson Edited by: Brock Nelson on 24/09/2009 01:06:32 Because when I raised the issue 6 months ago, nobody listened, so I let it go because I wasn't involved with it other than auditing it. Now, I'm not raising it, a few people is raising the issue and I'm just jumping on the same train that I got on 6 months ago... Edit: btw, I noticed that you haven't said anything about you losing 50 billion... fair enough mate :) if you feel you wherent listened to its more than ok to bring your points forward again :) @ your edit: thats funny because i remember answering that question and saying SOMETHING about myself losing 50B around 2009.06.02 21:16:00 thats 4 mths ago! LINKAGE Quote: First off.. TMP Industries is CURRENTLY offering buyback @ 95% ie. 475K per share. Its also stated that when this whole thing is over, i and perhaps other key persons will be taking an unspecified share of TMP Industries. But YES, if i dont take a piece of TMP Industries when it closes shop, i will effectively be out of 50B..... (bolded added by ji sama) If the NAV is 74.5b, then wouldn't 95% of the share price be 1.44m/share? Also, you didn't say that you lost 50b. You said that if you don't take a piece of TMP Industries when it closes shop you will be effectively out of 50b. I said YES, you just didnt want to quote that did you? the 95% buy back is based on initial share price. Originally by: Brock Nelson Edited by: Brock Nelson on 24/09/2009 01:24:45 So, why didn't you issue shares to yourself for that 50billion back then? Oh right, it's to inflate the share prices. When the time comes to end the IPO, you'll issue yourself shares and the share price will drop to what it was before, give or take. Edit: (**ing 5min timer) Originally by:** Ji Sama i dont understand what it is you dont get, and of course i will refer you to an old post, because i stand by what was said. was it smart? that can always be discussed. i did what i did. period. to answer your question: YES Your old post said that you will issue shares to yourself and now you're not going to issue yourself shares? Brock dont lie, i havent SAID anywhere that i would issue shares to myself, NOT ONCE. We cant discuss if you make things up like that. But i now atleast understand what you where yelling scam about, and no i dont intend to inflate the share price to make a profit. it was a genuine injection of assets, didnt think it would be a problem tbh, but i can see now, that it could be used to ponzi!
Brock Nelson Caldari Flux Technologies Inc	Posted - 2009.09.24 01:37:00 - [36] Originally by: Ji Sama Edited by: Ji Sama on 24/09/2009 01:33:14 Originally by: Brock Nelson Edited by: Brock Nelson on 24/09/2009 01:24:45 So, why didn't you issue shares to yourself for that 50billion back then? Oh right, it's to inflate the share prices. When the time comes to end the IPO, you'll issue yourself shares and the share price will drop to what it was before, give or take. Edit: (**ing 5min timer) Originally by:** Ji Sama i dont understand what it is you dont get, and of course i will refer you to an old post, because i stand by what was said. was it smart? that can always be discussed. i did what i did. period. to answer your question: YES Your old post said that you will issue shares to yourself and now you're not going to issue yourself shares? Brock dont lie, i havent SAID anywhere that i would issue shares to myself, NOT ONCE. We cant discuss if you make things up like that. But i now atleast understand what you where yelling scam about, and no i dont intend to inflate the share price to make a profit. it was a genuine injection of assets, didnt think it would be a problem tbh, but i can see now, that it could be used to ponzi! I'm not lying, let me point you to an old post of yours where you yourself just pointed it out few posts ago saying that you will issue yourself shares... Linkage Have I once screamed SCAM? No, you must be thinking of Shar...
Solisk Gallente HyperFang Aquisitions And Logistics New Eden Retail Federation	Posted - 2009.09.24 01:39:00 - [37] Ji, no one is calling you a scammer yet. Well, Shar did. You did something very questionable, and people are now doing doing their due diligence. If you've nothing to fear then don't worry. However, you still did something very stupid. Expect people to cast a wary eye at it.
Katiana Swan	Posted - 2009.09.24 01:40:00 - [38] I dont want to get involved but reading this thread makes me think of this song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-eD-AQjByQ&feature=fvw
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.09.24 01:42:00 - [39] Edited by: Ji Sama on 24/09/2009 01:44:44 where do i say that brock, we arent reading the same forums. where am i saying that i will issue shares to myself? first of i cant and wont issue NEW shares without an investor majority vote. secondly i havent even worked out yet, how an issuing of new shares should work, because 1: 24.5B original IPO 2: if i make lets say another 24.5B shares, i would have to compensate original investors, because their shares would loose value, it is just not something i am prepared to do. 3: i would end up giving all new shares to original investors to compensate them for lost value of their orignal stock. ie. we currently have NO plan to issue any more stock. And if we where we would not do it without an investor majority vote. edit: brock i wasnt saying you called me scammer, the last part was a general announcement, meant for the rest of the board aswell :) @solisk i am not worried, i am puzzled as to why this is an issue 5 mths after it was injected.
Brock Nelson Caldari Flux Technologies Inc	Posted - 2009.09.24 01:48:00 - [40] From the link Originally by: Ji Sama First off.. TMP Industries is CURRENTLY offering buyback @ 95% ie. 475K per share. Its also stated that when this whole thing is over, i and perhaps other key persons will be taking an unspecified share of TMP Industries. But yes, if i dont take a piece of TMP Industries when it closes shop, i will effectively be out of 50B..... So, you're now saying that you're not taking any shares for your 50b asset injected into the TMP IPO?
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.09.24 01:55:00 - [41] Hehe Brock apparently i fail at english then, because that is not what i said. I was talking in context about when TMPI would close down. In that context we where talking about COMPENSATION, i can see in retrospec that using the word "share" was not that smart. since we are in a forum talking about stocks/shares. But it should be clear, that in the context i am speaking, i am not talking about the issuing of NEW shares. I am in fact talking about MY SHARE (ie my cut, payment, compensation) when TMPI closes down. We clear now?
Krathos Morpheus Gallente Legion Infernal	Posted - 2009.09.24 01:56:00 - [42] Originally by: Ji Sama Hehe Brock apparently i fail at english then, because that is not what i said. I was talking in context about when TMPI would close down. In that context we where talking about COMPENSATION, i can see in retrospec that using the word "share" was not that smart. since we are in a forum talking about stocks/shares. But it should be clear, that in the context i am speaking, i am not talking about the issuing of NEW shares. I am in fact talking about MY SHARE (ie my cut, payment, compensation) when TMPI closes down. We clear now? One more question: Why did you give 50B for free? EVE Knowledge
Brock Nelson Caldari Flux Technologies Inc	Posted - 2009.09.24 01:58:00 - [43] Oh ok, so what kind of compensation are we talking about then? isk-wise? How much? asset-wise? How much? It sounds like you plan to take your 50b worth of something back from the TMP IPO. So, really, the share price shouldn't be valued at 1.3m per share (whatever the actual figure is), it should be valued at how much people originally paid for the shares.
HawkBlade	Posted - 2009.09.24 01:59:00 - [44] Originally by: Ji Sama 2: if i make lets say another 24.5B shares, i would have to compensate original investors, because their shares would loose value, it is just not something i am prepared to do. 3: i would end up giving all new shares to original investors to compensate them for lost value of their orignal stock. Bull**. What lost value? Simple math: 25 b Public Debt + 50 b 3rd party Assets = 75 b total assets. The public's share did not increase at all. Of course you know this as you set the "buy back" for shares at roughtly 500 m (24.5 billion isk total). Not the 74.5 billion NAV. Why? Because TMPI NAV is not** 75 billion. It is still 25 billion + 50 billion of "loans" from outside of TMPI. The 50 billion you added is not asset but debt in equal measure. Of course you know this which is why you only offer 495k isk per share. And that, what you are willing to buy, is the only real indicator of TMPI stock price. The other stuff you said, pure crap. I'm sure once all the inflated shares finished selling (be it your alts or some friends) you will then collect back the 50 billion loan (as you honestly should!) and pay back only what you actually raised in the original IPO. This is what Enron did. Why wouldn't someone want to use a "just a game" to simulate real life... wouldn't that just be "fun". See my twitterings about Eve Online. Be the first to hear me toot.
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.09.24 02:09:00 - [45] Edited by: Ji Sama on 24/09/2009 02:11:50 @Brock I have said it clearly (many times now), i am working with numbers around 5-10% of the NAV as compensation @Shar Very well, there is nothing i can say that will change your mind, if you think that my investor base, is composed of my alts your free to think that. Its just not a level i want to drag myself down to. And i think thats a shame tbh, because you have a valid point, if what you are saying is something i was trying to do. EDIT: Ok i might have misunderstood something, but what i tried to address was the fact, that if we have an IPO worth 24.5B in stocks, if i then issue NEW stock, the original stock will lose value right? @Krathos I did it because i thought it was best for TMPI and my Investors.
Brock Nelson Caldari Flux Technologies Inc	Posted - 2009.09.24 02:27:00 - [46] Edited by: Brock Nelson on 24/09/2009 02:27:39 Originally by: Ji Sama @Shar Very well, there is nothing i can say that will change your mind, if you think that my investor base, is composed of my alts your free to think that. Its just not a level i want to drag myself down to. And i think thats a shame tbh, because you have a valid point, if what you are saying is something i was trying to do. EDIT: Ok i might have misunderstood something, but what i tried to address was the fact, that if we have an IPO worth 24.5B in stocks, if i then issue NEW stock, the original stock will lose value right? It will lose value BUT, if you include 50b in the NAV AND create new shares for the 50b, then the value of the share remains the same. The value of the original shares were at 500,000 right? Simply create 100,000 shares for the 50b and give it to yourself since it was your 50b assets right? Then you can go ahead and say that the NAV of the IPO is 74.5b and shares pice is 500,000 or whatever the actual value is.
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.09.24 02:32:00 - [47] i see, nothing of the thought will be done however without an investor majority vote. currently i stand by what has been said and done. if that means shar and his merry men will call scam, so be it. i would like it to go down on the record though as the poorest scam ever. with a negative profit of around 66B...
Solisk Gallente HyperFang Aquisitions And Logistics New Eden Retail Federation	Posted - 2009.09.24 02:35:00 - [48] Originally by: Ji Sama i see, nothing of the thought will be done however without an investor majority vote. currently i stand by what has been said and done. if that means shar and his merry men will call scam, so be it. i would like it to go down on the record though as the poorest scam ever. with a negative profit of around 66B... Where did the other 16b in losses come from? And yeah, if you do scam and lose that much, you're right under AC.
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.09.24 02:38:00 - [49] It was just some quick math i did. 30B+ currently invested around 25B in blue chips. (if i where to scam im pretty sure, they wouldnt pay out) 24.5B initial ipo value. (and around the ammount, i am currently offering to buy back shares at) 12B already paid out dividends. (ofc some claim that the investors are my alts, so that wouldnt really be a loss then) overall it was just a quick calculation showing that i dont stand to profit from this :) my alts do however... :p
Krathos Morpheus Gallente Legion Infernal	Posted - 2009.09.24 02:38:00 - [50] Originally by: Ji Sama Edited by: Ji Sama on 24/09/2009 02:11:50 @Brock I have said it clearly (many times now), i am working with numbers around 5-10% of the NAV as compensation There is no way that percentage can compensate for the loss of 50B. Help me understand what legit reason could impulse you to donate such amount of isks. Originally by: Ji Sama Ok i might have misunderstood something, but what i tried to address was the fact, that if we have an IPO worth 24.5B in stocks, if i then issue NEW stock, the original stock will lose value right? I fail to see that the reason for giving free isks is to not lose value on stock. Real value (aka buyback) doesn't change at all if you create new stock for the same value paid with isks. Perceived value and profits can change, but that's not a reason to inflate value giving free isks. I also think that you're not stupid and there's a reason behind this, if you wanted to give money for free in an altruistic way, you would have done it in a different way (with an announcement saying it clearly in the first place). EVE Knowledge
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.09.24 02:44:00 - [51] Edited by: Ji Sama on 24/09/2009 02:44:22 Krathos we can play forum fu, or you can try to interpret what was written in the context it was written. I know you can do this, so please do it. I answered your question already; but since this has become a repeating session; i might aswell repeat the answer. I did what i did beacuse i thought it was in the best interest of TMPI and its investors. I did make an announcement in my IPO thread, i did make it clear, now 5 months after it has become a problem. It was considered corp assets i simply rolled them over into the IPO!
Magnu Stormhawk	Posted - 2009.09.24 08:35:00 - [52] WTB TMPI shares @ 100ISK each This whole thing has become a mess because of your failure to clearly communicate your intentions and the terms of the IPO following the effect of the asset injection following the IPO. For what its worth I don't think you are scamming (innocent until proven guilty), but I think you can present a final clear answer on it and bring the whole thing back to a matter of trust. At the time of the transfer of assets and increase in NAV you only stated that you would have to take a 'share' of it back, but the amount wasnt specified. In the absence of clarity, prudence suggests all of it, therefore it should not increase the IPO NAV for the purpose of share valuations, yet you suggested it did. Now you have mentioned a compensation 'share' of 5-10% of the NAV on closing, and . If this is the case then you need to make clear that: 1) YES i have donated a substantial collection of assets to the IPO, for fun. 2) NO i will not be taking it all back again 3) YES i will take some compensation on closing 4) Buyback value of the shares is still 495k but will be redeemed at a minimum of 90% of total NAV on closing Which I think is what you are trying to get at in your various defensive posts. I dont understand how an IPO manager can dictate what the share value is in any case. You can only state the facts - NAV, dividend history, projected dividends, redemption value etc. On the market they are worth what someone is willing to pay for them based on these facts and other less tangible factors. Such as whether they think you are scamming or not - a factor that now unfortunately is probably going to hit the share value like an express train.
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.09.24 08:57:00 - [53] @Magnu. It might be my fault that it has become a mess, though I did many times bring this subject about, it is not something i have been trying to hide. I have been honest of my intentions from the start. I was honest when the Assets (50B) was rolled over into the corp, and i was honest explaining why it was done, I have been honest about my payment for doing this, and already before launch, a figure of around 5-10% as payment for key TMPI personel was mentioned. I dont need to make anything clear; it was made clear from the start. 1: I have rolled all TMPI assets over into the IPO i did this 5-6 mths ago 2: No i will not be rolling any assets back, out of the IPO 3: I will take around 5-10% of the total NAV when this is done as salary. 4: currently buyback is 475K ISK per share, for the simple reason that i am not buying back shares yet, this is a courtesy i am offering my investors 5: I dont dictate anything, i am confirming how TMPI values it shares. TMPI CURRENTLY VALUATES its shares @ 1.35M Based on NAV. As it has been stated many times, we will be buying back shares at a price based on our NAV. That means that when i have taken my payment; the rest goes to the investors. My offer of fairness stands; if any investor feel that i have not been fourthcomming wth information or been misrepresenting their investment, or didnt know about the 95% buyback, i hereby once more extend the offer to buy back shares at 100% of cost.
Magnu Stormhawk	Posted - 2009.09.24 10:52:00 - [54] I wasn't questioning your honesty, just the clarity of information. I disagree that you dont need to make anything clear. However, you just did, so its now an irrelevance. Perhaps dictating was the wrong word to use. TMPI valuing its shares based on NAV for the market to consider is fine (although it should take into account accruing costs for your salary), the problem is that the NAV has been surrounded by uncertainty and has been brought to a head with the recent sale offerings based on your valuation.
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.09.24 11:21:00 - [55] The valuating of the shares does take into account my payment, hence the reason they are valuated at 1.35M and not 1.53M each. This is also only an estimate, since NAV's fluctuate. People can sell their shares for what ever price they want. I only confirmed the valuation. Nothing havent been revealed, this is old news, apparently still tasty for some. Again, my offer stands; any investor feel they have been mistreated, can return there shares at cost to TMPI.
Keyser Kahn Stellar-Parallax Corp Legio Mithras	Posted - 2009.09.24 12:10:00 - [56] Hmm - does this mean no-one wants to buy any of my shares? Been out of game for 2 weeks - rl hit me hard (well a car hit me hard whilst I was out on my motorbike - car w/off, bike w/off but I live on to play eve). Well shares are still for sale - am happy to discuss value but tbh Ji has been very clear on how this will wrap up. If theres no interest then its no biggie for me to hang on to them till the end, was just hoping to put my isk into something else (more charitable than investment) sooner rather than later. Play safe - leaving your pc desk clearly has consequences irl o/
Curzon Dax Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2009.09.24 12:44:00 - [57] Interesting thread here. 1. Ji, if you would just post in clear terms an absolute answer to what all these people are asking about...the arguments would go away. You're avoiding direct answers to "What happens to that 50 billion ISK?" I find the avoidance suspicious. =p I don't know you, or your IPO, but here's what my gut says: -You're intending to do something shady that will result in profit for you at the expense of others. I don't know what, because I don't know you, but I don't think you started your IPO with that in mind. -You're not comfortable pulling a fast one, which is why you haven't just straight answered questions about your 50 billion ISK. If you were to say "I'm leaving it in the IPO" and later be proven a liar, you'll be labeled a scammer. If you say "I'm taking it out at the end" the shares will deflate in price. Only one of the two can be true, unless there's a third option. -You're not willing to boldly lie about it because you intend to be vague, and when things DO go to crap, you'll feel like you have grounds to say "I never said that..." Truth be told, while you may convince yourself that you're in the right, your investors and skeptics on the forums won't see it the same way. Just give folks a straight answer. Lie or don't lie, but give a straight answer that folks can wrap their hands around and cling to. That way they'll either know what's happening or just be cheated later, but either way is better than veiled confusion. 2. If this whole thing is about 50 billion ISK, I can only lol. -------------------------------------------------- Eve-Online Parodies: Music To Laugh To
Dzil Caldari Sausage Banking	Posted - 2009.09.24 12:48:00 - [58] Quote: Its also stated that when this whole thing is over, i and perhaps other key persons will be taking an unspecified share of TMP Industries. Statements like this aren't just a failure of English, they leave the investor completely incapable of making an informed decision on the value of your share price. Ji, Take a lesson out of Ebank's book, record your liabilities. Anything less will be perceived as intentionally playing the books to inflate your NAV. Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m
cosmoray Cosmoray Construction	Posted - 2009.09.24 13:40:00 - [59] I haven't really been following this whole IPO, but let me know if I am correct. Ji Sama has a 20B or so IPO, AND then injected 50B ISK of personal assets into it without adjusting the shares or adding the 50B as a liability. The question I have is why would someone give their shareholders 50B of capital for free. There is something not being understood here. Questions: 1. How does Ji Sama get his 50B back at the end of the IPO? 2. What amount of money is Ji Sama expecting back at the end of the ipo? 3. Why give shareholders free capital? It would be difficult for Ji Sama to run off with the funds as he holds about 20-30B in shares in other corps, and I suspect those CEO's would 'nationalise' those shares.
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.09.24 17:31:00 - [60] Originally by: Dzil Quote: Its also stated that when this whole thing is over, i and perhaps other key persons will be taking an unspecified share of TMP Industries. Statements like this aren't just a failure of English, they leave the investor completely incapable of making an informed decision on the value of your share price. Ji, Take a lesson out of Ebank's book, record your liabilities. Anything less will be perceived as intentionally playing the books to inflate your NAV. Give me a break mate, while i agree that it wasnt a very good formulation, it is almost 6 mths old. The number has been revised a long time ago, to something inbetween 5-10% of the NAV

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