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Bellum Eternus
Gallente
Death of Virtue
MeatSausage EXPRESS
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Posted - 2009.09.09 09:55:00 -
[1]
Since I've been bored with the stagnant and stale state of Eve's gameplay in empire/lowsec/0.0 I decided to revisit w-space and see what kind of PVP could be found there.
When w-space was first introduced my alliance and I made a focused effort to be on the forefront of w-space exploration to exploit the resources and opportunities to be found there. That lasted all of a week. We quickly found that for the effort and resources we were committing to our w-space expedition we could be making as much or more ISK in empire farming missions (which we don't do anyway) with zero risk and zero headache, aside from the mind numbing boredom.
Now I'm back in w-space for PVP rather than PVE. Sadly it's been frustrating and disappointing to say the least.
The whole point of my w-space expedition is to PVP specifically in w-space where there is no local channel. I use two accounts, one dedicated prober and a dedicated combat ship. I started with a purpose built Arazu to use as a tackler/prober along with a Blasterthron but I've since changed my ship combination as that combo was promptly destroyed by a Hurricane and a Falcon. I'm on to my third iteration of ships now but so far haven't been able to find any targets (lol) to test my new combo on.
I've been through *many* w-space systems. Over sixty. And of those I've only encountered other players twice. The majority of the systems are completely empty, followed by systems with POSes in them but no activity. And by no activity I mean that the system has tons of active plexes to be farmed. If someone has been active within a week to 10 days or so then the system is usually completely clean of any and all plexes. If it's currently active then you usually see wrecks or cans, if not actual player ships, as evidence.
The largest hurdle to making contact with other players has been navigating w-space itself. There is a high incidence of w-space systems where they will only have one w-space connection (where I came from) and all the rest of the connections are to k-space. This is a big problem for those of us who wish to remain in w-space 100% of the time. Another issue is when those k-space links are all to high security space where I can't jump into without being killed by the navy.
But the worst problem *BY FAR* is the time and effort that it takes to probe out and verify *EVERY SINGLE COSMIC SIGNATURE IN THE SYSTEM* in order to be able to travel from one w-space system to the next once you find that the current system is empty of players.
<cont.>
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Bellum Eternus
Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Tier 5 Battleships
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Artemis Rose
Sileo In Pacis
The Space P0lice
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Posted - 2009.09.09 10:09:00 -
[2]
Are you honestly asking/expecting the fringes of space you explored to be packed with people? Doesn't that defeat the whole purpose of exploring?
***
Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space
Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine, Self Banstick +2
WTB: +666 E-peen killboard stats |
Bellum Eternus
Gallente
Death of Virtue
MeatSausage EXPRESS
|
Posted - 2009.09.09 10:11:00 -
[3]
<continued>
So anyway, I wish to start a w-space discussion thread about how we might improve the gameplay and increase the w-space population and talk about ways to improve living in w-space in general.
To me living in w-space is how I thought low-sec was going to be all along: very harsh- no access to supplies, no access to markets, what you have is what you bring with you. Solo/small gang roaming parties are really up against it when/if they encounter an enemy force. Just as the enemy doesn't know what you have, you don't know the full extent of their forces either.
Having local gone doesn't mean an instant gank for those looking for kills. It's a very big disadvantage to be the new guy jumping into a completely new system. You don't have all the current wormholes probed out and scouted. There could be bubbles on the wormholes or enemy scouts already in place watching for traffic. There could be a large hostile force on the other side of a wormhole sitting in a POS and the current bunch of ships in system are simply an expeditionary force farming the resources of the system while the main operation stays in the neighboring system.
Even if you're well versed in the art and nuance of probing and have max skills it still takes a bit of time to probe out wormholes, and this is besides the huge problem of having to sort wormholes from all the other cosmic signatures.
Having to fly probes all around a system easily alerts all of those already in that system to your presence. So you have a choice: do you explore the system thoroughly with your probes for all the wormhole locations first or do you go after a target and hope you don't get blobbed?
One of the best things about w-space is most of the time people aren't able to call in massive numbers in a short amount of time once they find your force. They don't know exactly how many you have, and they can't do things like hotdrop a carrier on you, even if they happen to have one in w-space at a POS next door. But, as I learned first hand, a single Falcon and the fight is over if you only have a few guys.
For me personally the biggest problems I've been experiencing are having to sort wormholes from other cosmic signatures and being stuck in systems where there is only a single connection to other w-space systems, keeping me from travelling forward and continuing on with my exploration of w-space.
How about the rest of you?
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Bellum Eternus
Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Tier 5 Battleships
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Freyya
Advanced Planetary Exports
Intergalactic Exports Group
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Posted - 2009.09.09 10:18:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Freyya on 09/09/2009 10:20:13
Disguised BECAUSE OF FALCON thread.
On a different note; W-Space is supposed to be the adventure you're having right now. Empty space with another explorer every now and then (with the occasional fully fledged Wspace corp with posses and complete armies and all that).
Other than that i can say you're just unlucky in your probings perhaps. I've come across almost nothing but pos infested wspaces lately with accompanying army farming the plexes. I also know of several people who are doing quite well in Wspace pvp with just 2-4 guys, and i'm talking bc's tops here.
Perhaps the big red minus prohibits you in going to the more populated wspaces since they usually tend to pop open in high sec.
That's where i found my pos infected spots at least..
Edit:
Indeed the sorting of said Wormholes from other sigs is a pian in the proverbial behind and the "low" amount of gateway to other wspace systems is indeed something annoying. On the other hand i feel it's a bit part of the exploring said empty and hazardous spaces...
___________
NOW COLLECTING ISD AND CCP AUTOGRAPHS
It'll be worth something someday. -Rauth
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente
Death of Virtue
MeatSausage EXPRESS
|
Posted - 2009.09.09 10:19:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: Artemis Rose
Are you honestly asking/expecting the fringes of space you explored to be packed with people? Doesn't that defeat the whole purpose of exploring?
No. I'm obviously making a post suggesting that we should discuss ways to further improve w-space and make it an enjoyable and rewarding experience. Only a complete idiot would derive something else from my post.
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Bellum Eternus
Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Tier 5 Battleships
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zelalot
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Posted - 2009.09.09 10:21:00 -
[6]
Im dissappointed with WH space too....If the WH's were stable that would be worth the effort in scanning them down, then inside the WH's they went to a lucrative WH system....
Its just a ball ache to say the least to scan something down, get inside it not knowing if its going to collapse and take you miles away. Now if there were stable WH's that were stable i can see tones of fun exploring a WH out to find it goes from the South to the North or vice verssa. The fact they jump around and arent stable is what makes them useless to me.
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LordSwift
Caldari
SWG-RoNaN-BloOdFiN
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Posted - 2009.09.09 10:22:00 -
[7]
Quite odd since most the time i try to farm some wormholes i get ganked by about 5 people or more. Just must be the ones your going in.
To be frank i would like W-Space to be safe from pvp but then again i dont. I just want to be able to explore unknown space as we should be able to. but without it being cut short and getting ganked. 
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Heroldyn
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Posted - 2009.09.09 10:28:00 -
[8]
stable wormholes is amongst the worst things ccp could do.
what makes wh space attractive & different is the fact that its not stable, and that it constantly changes and that you get out somewhere else as from where you got in.
dont mistake wh space for 0.0 without sov.
what they should do to improve wh space is actually the very opposite. they should make it even more dynamic and counter the current player initatives of catalogization of wh space, by for example hiding wh system names.
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente
Death of Virtue
MeatSausage EXPRESS
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Posted - 2009.09.09 10:30:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Freyya
Disguised BECAUSE OF FALCON thread.
On a different note; W-Space is supposed to be the adventure you're having right now. Empty space with another explorer every now and then (with the occasional fully fledged Wspace corp with posses and complete armies and all that).
Other than that i can say you're just unlucky in your probings perhaps. I've come across almost nothing but pos infested wspaces lately with accompanying army farming the plexes. I also know of several people who are doing quite well in Wspace pvp with just 2-4 guys, and i'm talking bc's tops here.
Perhaps the big red minus prohibits you in going to the more populated wspaces since they usually tend to pop open in high sec.
That's where i found my pos infected spots at least..
Lol @ "because of Falcon".
Anyhoo, I'm fine with w-space feeling all 'big and empty' and stuff. What I have an issue with is that I spend 99% of my time probing out every single cosmic signature in the system in order to verify that they're not wormholes. And if I disconnect or jump through a wormhole to see where it leads (not whether or not it goes to highsec/lowsec etc. but *what* system) I lose all of my 'discarded contacts' info and I have to start all over again.
I could cover a lot more ground and there would be more player interaction/contact if wormholes were able to be placed in their own filter for probe results *and* if every w-space system had at least two wormholes leading to other w-space systems as a minimum.
I've been making a database of every single w-space system I've been in, what was in it, and what happened there (contact, fights etc.). So far I have yet to occupy the same system twice, but on the other hand I haven't been to that many systems as it's taking me hours/days to move from one system to the next. Right now I'm in a system where every single wormhole leads to k-space. I'll just have to wait a day or so for new wormholes to spawn, but that's pretty fail if you ask me.
I think the wormhole spawning algorithm needs to be separated into two components- one that spawns k-space connections and another that provides a web of w-space to w-space connections so that one is independent of the other, with w-space connections taking precedent over k-space if you start running into wormhole count limits for the system in question.
--
Bellum Eternus
Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Tier 5 Battleships
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zelalot
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Posted - 2009.09.09 10:32:00 -
[10]
For those that watch Star Trek if you have seen Deep Space 9 that is the sort of thing i am going on about. A stable worm hole that appears and dissappears on a set rotation.
I find the WH's at the moment to unpredicatable and too time consuming. If you want to solo them its very hard to do not knowing what sort of grade WH you are entering. For WH to really get a buzz i would personally like to seem them more stable and predicatable and because i have spent time scanning it out, more lucrative, The AI involved is awesome dont change that .
Also make stable Wormholes that connect all regions of space. if your in null space finding a WH that takes you right into the heart of your enemy that would be pretty fun and if its stable can you imagine that.....just to see all of a sudden your local bump with an enemy fleet, no intel, no nothing!
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Simon Barrow
Durgarnir
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Posted - 2009.09.09 10:37:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
...No. I'm obviously making a post suggesting that we should discuss ways to further improve w-space...
You are posting on the wrong sub forum then. General Discussion is for whining.
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zelalot
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Posted - 2009.09.09 10:43:00 -
[12]
Im not talking about making all WH's stable. I am talking about a few. From someone who lives in 0.0 i want to be able to go into a WH knowing firstly there is something in there worth the time i spent scanning it down. Most of the time i find plexes i cant solo, its not lucrative, and i would prefer to rat and plex in normal space knowing the system isn't going to have a period and **** off.
In terms of stable, a few dotted around that contain plexes that are lucrative. but if you go in your cant come out for several hours. But when you can come out its to the system where it was.
i dont know call them "stable plexing WH". then for the ones that run the stretch of the map (i.e. from the North to the south) "Travellers WH".
Obviously keep the "unpredicatable WH's" but make more that are stable.
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente
Death of Virtue
MeatSausage EXPRESS
|
Posted - 2009.09.09 10:53:00 -
[13]
Originally by: zelalot
Im not talking about making all WH's stable. I am talking about a few. From someone who lives in 0.0 i want to be able to go into a WH knowing firstly there is something in there worth the time i spent scanning it down. Most of the time i find plexes i cant solo, its not lucrative, and i would prefer to rat and plex in normal space knowing the system isn't going to have a period and **** off.
In terms of stable, a few dotted around that contain plexes that are lucrative. but if you go in your cant come out for several hours. But when you can come out its to the system where it was.
i dont know call them "stable plexing WH". then for the ones that run the stretch of the map (i.e. from the North to the south) "Travellers WH".
Obviously keep the "unpredicatable WH's" but make more that are stable.
I used to think that more stable wormholes were the way to go. I don't anymore, and for exactly the reasons you've stated.
W-space shouldn't be something that can be easily exploited by those in k-space. What you're describing is something similar to what the existing plexes are today: something that you can enter, get all the good stuff and get out and carry on with your regular 0.0 routine. You want to be able to live in 0.0 and experience what w-space has to offer without any of the risk. No thanks.
I think that the current level of wormhole stability is just fine. Once you get used to operating in w-space you begin to get comfortable with the idea of wormholes not lasting for more than a few hours and the limitations of moving too much mass through a wormhole too often. I travel pretty light so I don't run into mass limits very often and I'm pretty mobile so I don't have too many issues with stability limits either.
However, when I first entered w-space and installed a permanent presence there for an extended time I had to deal with the same issues and was always able to find a workable solution. Making w-space more static is *not* the way to go. It's current level of stability is just fine in my opinion. What needs to be looked at is w-space to w-space connectivity and how easily those wormholes are identified.
The last patch went a long way to improving the scanning mechanics. It was a big step in the right direction. More development needs to follow, and quickly.
--
Bellum Eternus
Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Tier 5 Battleships
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zelalot
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Posted - 2009.09.09 11:07:00 -
[14]
Like i said i live in 0.0 and dont find any use for them at the moment. If they developed WH's that were stable and harder than the plexes we encounter in normal space that would be of benefit for people in 0.0. I see it all the time, we get people scanning and finding WH's and once they know the sig is a WH they move on and dont bother with it. I need isk to pvp and for the effort it takes to scan them out go inside and work out how to defeat the plex to get nothing but useless salvage i would rather stay in the region and rat and plex. As i said keep the unstable WH's they are good fun for those that dont have the oligations of running an alliance. i just think making WH's that are stable that run in zero zero and stay in zero zero opens up the whole "alliance WH op". At the moment we cant take fleets in to defeat the WH, we dont get anything of use from them, we need isk to pvp, and run our sov systems.
What about stable WH's that run the entire lenght of the game that connect all regions of the game. it would connect the north and south and the east and west the north to the east etc. At the moment in zero zero the south are in the south doing there thing, the north are in the the north doing there thing.
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente
Death of Virtue
MeatSausage EXPRESS
|
Posted - 2009.09.09 11:13:00 -
[15]
Originally by: zelalot
Like i said i live in 0.0 and dont find any use for them at the moment. If they developed WH's that were stable and harder than the plexes we encounter in normal space that would be of benefit for people in 0.0. I see it all the time, we get people scanning and finding WH's and once they know the sig is a WH they move on and dont bother with it. I need isk to pvp and for the effort it takes to scan them out go inside and work out how to defeat the plex to get nothing but useless salvage i would rather stay in the region and rat and plex. As i said keep the unstable WH's they are good fun for those that dont have the oligations of running an alliance. i just think making WH's that are stable that run in zero zero and stay in zero zero opens up the whole "alliance WH op". At the moment we cant take fleets in to defeat the WH, we dont get anything of use from them, we need isk to pvp, and run our sov systems.
What about stable WH's that run the entire lenght of the game that connect all regions of the game. it would connect the north and south and the east and west the north to the east etc. At the moment in zero zero the south are in the south doing there thing, the north are in the the north doing there thing.
Right. Changing everything about what w-space is in order to bend it to suit 0.0 alliance needs and wants is total crap. You don't see any value to w-space because you're only considering it from your (very narrow) point of view.
The wormhole mechanics that you're describing (super highways connecting the four corners of 0.0) is just ridiculous. In fact, due to jump bridges and WTZ the entirety of Eve has become dramatically smaller in scale with respect to the time it takes to travel from one area to another. The last thing we need to do is make that problem worse.
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Bellum Eternus
Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Tier 5 Battleships
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Slave 2739FKZ
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.09.09 11:26:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Slave 2739FKZ on 09/09/2009 11:29:49
Signatures: Yeah biggest problem right now is you have to scan every stupid signature. So WH should use a different type of signature, make it more casual friendlly. Increase the time duration of wormholes too, so people can organize theirshelves to raid them, and increase w-w wormhole connections a big deal so people can easilly exploit the deepest wormholes so there will be more activity around and opportunity for combat.
POSes: Only trully dedicated explorers should be able to settle wormholes. Make random BS slepeer fleets raid poses, these shouldn't drop any loot/wreck so it can't be exploited.
Let's not forget about T3 though, as long as T3 is a glorified version of T2 HACs, people won't use them much so the concept must be trully rebalanced and even redesigned (CCP sounded very cool when they announced it, and its not even close to what they pretended them to be). It's hard to do soemthing interesting about them because EVE tactcial options are too few, combat needs a deep review in general and T3 could play a role into it. But this is a far reaching thing and outside of the scope of this thread, even if it's related.
WIS is an expansion which allows EVE players to wear leather and walk around stations.
Dust514 is a console shooter/rts which will tie into EVE and affect sov. |
zelalot
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Posted - 2009.09.09 11:31:00 -
[17]
Right. Changing everything about what w-space is in order to bend it to suit 0.0 alliance needs and wants is total crap. You don't see any value to w-space because you're only considering it from your (very narrow) point of view. - no im not and if you read what i wrote i said keep the unstablility of WH that to some is fun. Im talking about adding another dimension to try and make them more appealing to the 0.0 alliances. I spent well over a month scanning out WH's going into them and constantly being dissappointed and for the effort it takes to scan them out and the whole "whats in it for me" its more lucrative to stay in the systems and rat and plex. Even if normal plexes dont drop the "big loot" we still got paid. May be WH space just isnt for 0.0 space where most people want to stay close to home just incase reds are reported, we need isk for ships
The wormhole mechanics that you're describing (super highways connecting the four corners of 0.0) is just ridiculous. In fact, due to jump bridges and WTZ the entirety of Eve has become dramatically smaller in scale with respect to the time it takes to travel from one area to another. The last thing we need to do is make that problem worse. - I dont agree with you there. Jump bridges are only useful for those that have sov and are blue. It would still take me well over an hour to get from the South to the North and i just think adding stable "highways" that connect all the regions of the game could be fun in terms of "Holy **** 300 man fleet has just appeared". The WH could stick around for a week and the dissappear.
but it you read what i wrote i said by all means keep the unpredicatbale dynamic to suit the explorers.
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Jint Hikaru
OffWorld Exploration Inc
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Posted - 2009.09.09 11:43:00 -
[18]
Quote:
Right. Changing everything about what w-space is in order to bend it to suit 0.0 alliance needs and wants is total crap. You don't see any value to w-space because you're only considering it from your (very narrow) point of view.
/This
Quote:
Im talking about adding another dimension to try and make them more appealing to the 0.0 alliances. I spent well over a month scanning out WH's going into them and constantly being dissappointed and for the effort it takes to scan them out and the whole "whats in it for me" its more lucrative to stay in the systems and rat and plex. Even if normal plexes dont drop the "big loot" we still got paid. May be WH space just isnt for 0.0 space where most people want to stay close to home just incase reds are reported, we need isk for ships
Sounds to me that you are wanting, not only your big alliance only section of 0.0, to rat and make isk for ships etc, but you also want 'static' Wormholes so you can have all the rewards without the risk of being cut off from your precious alliance space.
Static Wormhole space is simpy 0.0.... it wont be 5 mins before someone claims it and keeps everyone else out..... just like 0.0
WHs are fine the way they are (appart from filtering WH sigs on the scanner)
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Jint Hikaru - Miner / Salvager / Explorer
"I've got a couple of Strippers on my ship... and they just love to dance!"
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Derus Grobb
Selectus Pravus Lupus
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Posted - 2009.09.09 11:47:00 -
[19]
OP is a load of dreary excrement. Wspace is bloody brilliant 
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zelalot
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Posted - 2009.09.09 11:51:00 -
[20]
Sounds to me that you are wanting, not only your big alliance only section of 0.0, to rat and make isk for ships etc, but you also want 'static' Wormholes so you can have all the rewards without the risk of being cut off from your precious alliance space.
Static Wormhole space is simpy 0.0.... it wont be 5 mins before someone claims it and keeps everyone else out..... just like 0.0
WHs are fine the way they are (appart from filtering WH sigs on the scanner)
I suppose it depends on how you play your game. If you dont have the obligations of running an alliance in normal space and you play the game to explore then WH's are excellent. For a lot of use plexing ratting and mining in normal space is more useful to our cause.
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Thernys
Caldari
Capital Construction Research
Pioneer Alliance
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Posted - 2009.09.09 12:35:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Derus Grobb
OP is a load of dreary excrement. Wspace is bloody brilliant
Confirming this. OP should get some friends instead of trying to change wspace mechanics to more of a solo pirate's playground. It can of course be that too, but you shouldn't expect it to be any less effort than low sec, rather the contrary... And you should expect to get ganked with no less likelihood than a solo wspace ratter.
WH connections are not completely random and you may not always find the links you wish you were finding - don't see a problem here. As for further dumbing down the probing system, I didn't think that was possible but here we have an idea for that too ;) A thought, improve your methods instead of trying to mold the game into your current ones.
Last week's highlights for us include stealing a large faction tower, receiving the generous donation of an Orca and killing a Thanatos (three separate occasions) along with some smaller engagements, some with kills, some without as things go. Clearly then it follows there's people out there, and it's just a matter of an organized effort to find them. Some luck comes in handy as well I suppose, but the frequency with which we run into people suggests wspace is definitely not empty.
Just have to remember to pack your patience along. Instant and constant action for the masses can be found in level 4 missions or your friendly neighborhood gatecamp if wspace isn't to your liking.
Tl;dr, wspace is just fine, takes some patience and offers some good fun for those who do put in the effort. Not necessarily the most casual environment, but then we already have high sec don't we. |
Bellum Eternus
Gallente
Death of Virtue
MeatSausage EXPRESS
|
Posted - 2009.09.09 12:56:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Thernys
stuff
My probing methods are beyond reproach. I'm able to probe out/filter out probe contacts as fast as anyone in the game, and I'd probably put myself in the top 0.1% of all players in the game with respect to probing skill and experience.
The amount of time required to categorize every single probe contact takes up 95% of my time. Particularly when there are 40+ sites in a system and maybe 2-3 wormholes. It's a major pain in the ass.
I'm not asking for w-space to be dumbed down. I'm discussing what changes can be made to increase the incidence of player contact in w-space systems since they're probably the least populated systems in Eve.
I'm sure your little group gets a lot of contact because you're probably farming in some class 4 system that has new wormholes opening up to lowsec/0.0 all the time so you have random people coming in to bother you.
I'm not in a position to sit around and wait for a week to have three or four contacts with players. I am exceedingly patient in fact. Would you spend the better part of a week probing out wormhole after wormhole looking for ships to shoot? And after finding none, still continuing to do so? Or would you give up after just a few days straight with no results? I'm as organized and methodical as it gets when it comes to searching for targets. If I were able to cover more ground in less time then I'd probably have a higher incidence of contact with players than what exists currently.
And bringing other players is simply not an option. What happens when they have to log off and I want to continue on? If I leave them behind then they're stranded in w-space.
TL;DR, you don't know what you're talking about when it comes to what I'm attempting to do. Your operation in w-space is completely different from mine. When you've tried to accomplish what I'm doing then maybe you'll have some perspective.
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Bellum Eternus
Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Tier 5 Battleships
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Anslo
The Aduro Protocol
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Posted - 2009.09.09 13:14:00 -
[23]
Cry more.
Next.
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zelalot
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Posted - 2009.09.09 13:21:00 -
[24]
Edited by: zelalot on 09/09/2009 13:21:10
Why did the discussion turn into a slagging match???? i think its a good discussion and if we can maintain a mature nature i think it could develop into a bright idea for the game. After all we are all after enjoying a game.
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Haulerboi
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Posted - 2009.09.09 13:25:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Haulerboi on 09/09/2009 13:26:44
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
I use two accounts, one dedicated prober and a dedicated combat ship.
There is your problem, with that fleet you can only expect to find a gankeable target in class 1 to 3 holes... and these have the most holes to empire space. You can try class 4 and higher but you are not finding a single carebear plexing them because they just cannot be done solo.
I think it has to do with sleepers being so insanely overpowered. Add no local and 0.0 rules to that and you get a bunch of carebears not leaving their pos shields unless they can put a fleet big enough it doesn't get pwnd by sleepers.
That is what happened to my corp. And now we are pulling off w-space.
Tone down sleepers DPS and tank a bit and you will get more targets over there. 
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Ana Vyr
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Posted - 2009.09.09 13:29:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Ana Vyr on 09/09/2009 13:29:52
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
No. I'm obviously making a post suggesting that we should discuss ways to further improve w-space and make it an enjoyable and rewarding experience. Only a complete idiot would derive something else from my post.
An enjoyable and rewarding experience for me would be NOT to have you trying to kill me while I'm exploring. Shrug.
edit: fixed quote
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente
Death of Virtue
MeatSausage EXPRESS
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Posted - 2009.09.09 13:42:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Haulerboi
Edited by: Haulerboi on 09/09/2009 13:26:44
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
I use two accounts, one dedicated prober and a dedicated combat ship.
There is your problem, with that fleet you can only expect to find a gankeable target in class 1 to 3 holes... and these have the most holes to empire space. You can try class 4 and higher but you are not finding a single carebear plexing them because they just cannot be done solo.
I think it has to do with sleepers being so insanely overpowered. Add no local and 0.0 rules to that and you get a bunch of carebears not leaving their pos shields unless they can put a fleet big enough it doesn't get pwnd by sleepers.
That is what happened to my corp. And now we are pulling off w-space.
Tone down sleepers DPS and tank a bit and you will get more targets over there.
I can kill players in class 4/5/6 WH just fine. Killing them isn't the issue. It's finding them at all that is the problem.
It's not that I'm running into targets that I can't kill. It's that I can't cover enough ground to find any target, anywhere.
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Bellum Eternus
Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Tier 5 Battleships
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XXSketchxx
Gallente
Remote Soviet Industries
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Posted - 2009.09.09 14:34:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Derus Grobb
OP is a load of dreary excrement. Wspace is bloody brilliant
This.
Op you aren't discussing anything as anyone who has truly experienced w-space knows what its for. Its not a solo-pirates target rich playground. Its not an instanced pve arena (the second you drop your guard is the second you get f'd). Its not a 0.0 sov alliance isk machine.
It is for the small-middle sized corps to go out, work together, have some fun and make some money.
Yes you can go solo and make some isk. Yes you can go solo and get some kills. But that is not what the "end-state" of w-space is about. On another note, w-space is not supposed to be 'easy' to traverse. If wormholes were even easier to find, then why not just have static wormholes? Oh yeah. Cause that would defeat the purpose of it all.
Oh and honestly, I have traveled arouned myself. Go after the higher strength sigs and most of the time, you will find the wormhole relatively fast. If not, again oh well. Part of the feature that is w-space.
You just want CCP to "fix" something you don't like. Anyone that has spent some time in w-space knows it is perfectly awesome the way it is.
_____________________________________________
-Sketch, Certified Pharmacist
Need a Boost?
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Max Khaos
Anger Management
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Posted - 2009.09.09 14:40:00 -
[29]
The major problem with WH Exporation is the amount of sigs when your trying to move forward.
I have all skills @ 5 and the Virtue Implants and its still a pain in the ass when you have 20-30-40 sigs ...
The only change I would like is a WH Filter ....... simple.
Thanks
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Adunh Slavy
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Posted - 2009.09.09 17:52:00 -
[30]
I like the fact that a WH system can't be scanned down and every exit found easily in a matter of minutes, but instead may take an hour. It makes it all feel larger, more mystery, more worm holey.
There's lots to do out there, a number of steps to make it productive. If it were all roaming gangs all the time, it would be tiresome. The variety of tasks required to make it profitable keeps it interesting. Frankly I don't think the WHs them selves have enough mass to be able to handle the constant swapping of ships that would be needed to make productive use of the space and field a combat fleet too often.
I spend a lot of time in W space, and I do see other ships from other corps often enough to make it an event, but not so often that it is common place. If it were common place, the feel of W space would be lost.
I would like more information than vague words about time left on a hole, and the mass however. Getting trapped or waiting around for a collapse at who knows when exactly are the worst parts IMO. Time sink for the meh.
The Real Space Initiative - V5 (Forum Link)
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ollobrains
5th Front enterprises
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Posted - 2009.09.09 23:54:00 -
[31]
a few points, u want pvp the reason for the lack of targets is a) lack of pirate factions setting up and their anamolies spawning. If u provided 00 rats off in wormhole space maybe no bounties or other rewards make em a bit harder might tempt mpre peeps out there
CCP have changed wormholes getting from high sec to 00 is hard. A lot of peeps having regular contact are coming from high sec- high sec womrholes collapse and the whole layer of several hundred systems feeds back to high sec.
When the game first started the high sec systems - ws - often fed to low sec or 00 allowing lots of movement but in apoc 1.5 ccp seem to have turned something off meaning 00 is more likley to feed back upon itself and getting from c2 to c5 and then out to 00 means collapsing holes with no outcomes certain
Theres lots of poses out there banadoned ones if u have enough bs u can shoot - would be nice if a control tower is left abandoned for 6 weeks that it reverts to offline and unanchored allowing others to come along and claim em - but as it stands u have to blow it up. ANything short of a dread or 2-3 nightmares is gunna be a boring time.
Just lots of little balance hard to use things like that mean that most peeps arent really out there.
PVP yeah thats possible but remember a 2-10 man corp out there might only be active 2-3 hours in any 24 hour period so if u come along out of timezone you wont be getting far.
Lack of industrial end targets for wormhole goods ( only strat cruisers) is aother thing. No reason for targets u seek to be out there and such represent no pvp or industrial targets for u to hit.
Personally i go out there im so bored and so annoyed with ccp protecting 00 once again by making it harder for empire denziens to get out there that im just out in my domi setup to collapse wormholes and maybe find the odd target
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Dr Eurthymics
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Posted - 2009.09.10 00:19:00 -
[32]
I live in wh space with my corp. We have about 6 to 7 active people and it is a gold mine for a small corp. We are producing tech3 and mining abc ore. We do have neuts come in and sometimes we die and sometimes we kill. We drop tons of mins on your market and build your shiny tech3.
wh space is truely a carebears paradise...
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JitaPriceChecker2
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Posted - 2009.09.10 00:47:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Dr Eurthymics
Edited by: Dr Eurthymics on 10/09/2009 00:31:24
Edited by: Dr Eurthymics on 10/09/2009 00:26:58
I live in wh space with my corp. We have about 6 to 7 active people and it is a gold mine for a small corp. We are producing tech3 and mining abc ore. We do have neuts come in and sometimes we die and sometimes we kill. We drop tons of mins on your market and build your shiny tech3.
wh space is truely a carebears paradise...
oh and btw op join a real wh corp and you will see the light...
and one more thing Ive been living in wh space for 2 months now, and probing is easy. It takes me about 5 minutes to scan a sig id now.
After so much time living here ( i pretty much aggre on your post, i live in w-space my self) you should be scanning several signatures withing 5 minutes.
No reason to have probe at 32AU (except firs system scan). Think the signatures are only in limited distance from planets. And theres is a thing of initial signal strenght. Thats advanced :>, i always fail to explain it to other poeple though.
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Michwich
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Posted - 2009.09.10 01:05:00 -
[34]
Please dont call it pvp, call it emo pvp if you have to but PVP implies consent, like in sport or at the casino. There is no such PVP in this game. Oh wait, does "lets pvps?" floating can count? No.
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ollobrains
5th Front enterprises
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Posted - 2009.09.10 03:05:00 -
[35]
the 4au from planets thing is still generally true but can be up to 32au off according to devs
Yup a sig every 2 minutes i fu know what youre doing is possible
It takes teamwork
The pvp is generally encounter based but thats what eve should be like anyway
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rubico1337
Caldari
Mnemonic Enterprises
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Posted - 2009.09.10 03:12:00 -
[36]
id say increase the sig strength of all wormholes by 100%. make them able to be probed by a decent skill covert ops prober at 4 AU
Originally by: Lana Torrin
I'm getting pretty ****ed off with the supposedly hard core PvPers complaining about every little thing that gets changed. seriously, more tears than carebears.
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rubico1337
Caldari
Mnemonic Enterprises
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Posted - 2009.09.10 03:20:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Michwich
Please dont call it pvp, call it emo pvp if you have to but PVP implies consent, like in sport or at the casino. There is no such PVP in this game. Oh wait, does "lets pvps?" floating can count? No.
thewre is a button on your overview that disables pvp unless you consent to it.
or maybe you should stay in highsec instead of whining
Originally by: Lana Torrin
I'm getting pretty ****ed off with the supposedly hard core PvPers complaining about every little thing that gets changed. seriously, more tears than carebears.
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Herzog Wolfhammer
Gallente
Aliastra
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Posted - 2009.09.10 07:15:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Herzog Wolfhammer on 10/09/2009 07:22:16
Even pirate ships get lost sometimes.
As for increasing activity in WH space, I think this is an economic matter.
That for Tech III you have to go directly to cruisers and their subsystems, but if more avenues to Tech III opened up, like rigs, modules, ammo, drones, etc, then it becomes more profitable to exploit WH space. Currently the reports on T3 Cruisers are dismal: they are overpriced and can be popped still by a well skilled pilot in a PVP fitted BC. This does not make them bad ships, just not worth the money or the time to make them.
Even the ores are not as good as expected but I know little beyond that. Perhaps the expectations wree too high? I don't know.
But if there were more blue prints for T3 "goodies" from ammo to frozen sleeper corpses (to adorn the hangar), I think even the carebears will go in.
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ollobrains
5th Front enterprises
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Posted - 2009.09.10 09:41:00 -
[39]
A few more observations, there are a lot of systems now at least c4 and below that are settled by at least one pos. Range from 1 man alt corps who simply make use of a c5 system to head out and rat in any outlinks. To fully fledged capital ship production for smaller allainces ( not motherships and titans but carriers and dreads can be hidden away and brought out if a favourable low sec or 00 wormhole opens up) to tech 2 production, refuel bases for war targets hiding from mercs. To all sorts of other activities.
Abandoned poses should be recoverable perhaps after 6 weeks offline in wh space otherwise they will end up littering this space ( some pvp corps go out seeking to take out such targets i do hit such offline targets not the control towers but generally all other mods if they are there and i can take em down within an hour)
They make killmails after all
But yes in this next expansion ccp need to put t3 materials into more the general production chain weather it be modified tech 2 ammo and mods. Factional blueprints dropping and taking in t3 materials as well or other tech 3 ships ie bc and destroyers perhaps tech 3 haulers who knows or tech 3 minign barges
But if they want population out there it needs to be incorparated better
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Fig Jam
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Posted - 2009.09.10 10:02:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Freyya
Disguised BECAUSE OF FALCON thread.
I was thinking more of a disguised "BRING BACK LOCAL" thread.
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dethleffs
Aperture Harmonics
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Posted - 2009.09.10 10:36:00 -
[41]
I think the only thing lacking in Wspace is a system to properly order and cathegorise the insane amounts of bookmarks you end up with every day while making your way to kspace and back + all the sigs you scan down and be able to share them easily with your corpmates.
for the rest i think Wspace is fine, all the people who want to change something about it want to do that for their own good, pirates, carebears or 0.0 alliance players, all the same. |
ollobrains
5th Front enterprises
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Posted - 2009.09.10 10:42:00 -
[42]
I think a corparate bookmark scheme might work, sig and anamoly sites would be with permissions stored in a speerate folder - ccp could even introduce a 3-7 day time period for site bm storage ( sigs-amols only last 3 days) so that could be the limit.
The other options corps have is to send a twice daily email within corp and put up the site id so others logging in can reference the id and scan it out themselves
On a seperate note collapsing wormholes if youre looking for rapid collapsing an active MWD-AB adds 50m kg of mass a return trip on a wormhole will add another 100m mass ( standard bs jump) giving u 50% faster collapsing power
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Sinistro
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Posted - 2009.09.10 11:24:00 -
[43]
Not every one wants pvp all the time and I thought of the exploring aspect of unknown space that it could be some thing different and interesting but the truth is something els.
Found wormhole, went in with 2 characters, 1 in a cov ops scanner and one in a cerb. After scanning some sigs I went fighting the sleepers and it did not take long before I got attacked by some wannabe pirate corp. As they could not get me they were hanging on the exit w-hole jumping in and out till it closed. So I scanned another exit and popped out in some 0.3 system and that was it.
I really expected a bit more of exploring unknown space, which I understand as that you can be days there without finding or encountering any other player. This now is for me more a roaming place for highsec wannabe pirates who go in from save empire to look like some bad asses in w-space and can shoot others without standing loss.
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Sojanth
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Posted - 2009.09.10 11:39:00 -
[44]
WHs are "working as intended".
Leave them alone ffs.
They are an enormous time sink for everyone in them.
Why should pirating be any different.
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ollobrains
5th Front enterprises
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Posted - 2009.09.10 11:39:00 -
[45]
not all aspects of eve apply to everyone. Good points made though u got jumped by some wannabe pirates been there done that. Ive switched from carebear to pirate to now something in between that is PVE at times and if pvp presents itself u take a dual fit and can engage in some fun.
Youre basing youre adventures on one wormhole, do say 50-100 holes a domi is a great ship for this can be fitted with cloaker , scan prober and whatever else u might need. U will have to pic youre targets a bit carefully but the haulers, barges and other smaller targets are doable. Or if youre in a corp same thing setup in wh space have a bs alt-scanner to close any unacceptible holes scan out next one that alt might take a little while to get out to high sec and for u to line up anther link but then u can bring him back in and explore a bi there are 2500 w space systems out there at the moment and just like 00 there are 70% empty systems and 20% moderate something to look at systems and 10% hello we got something.
Might try a larger outfit who are into mission-pvp-wormholes. or even PVE solo wise only c1 - c2 and maybe some c3 sites are really doable but hopefully ccp will seed some pirate factions or expand the wormhole rats by adding more, or more sytems and implement one of the other 3 ancient races ( talotoc etc)
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Dodgy Past
Amarr
Lollipops for Rancors
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Posted - 2009.09.10 11:44:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Anyhoo, I'm fine with w-space feeling all 'big and empty' and stuff. What I have an issue with is that I spend 99% of my time probing out every single cosmic signature in the system in order to verify that they're not wormholes. And if I disconnect or jump through a wormhole to see where it leads (not whether or not it goes to highsec/lowsec etc. but *what* system) I lose all of my 'discarded contacts' info and I have to start all over again.
Simply put you're doing it wrong.
Just because your character has the skills doesn't mean you as a player have them.
When living in worm hole I need one single scan with a combat probe to know the exact state of all the prior sigs in the w-hole and therefore anything new that needs scanning down.
When exploring a new worm hole I can normally identify the sigs of any other worm holes pretty quickly and scan them down. You on the other hand appear to expect to have everything handed to you on a silver platter.
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Adunh Slavy
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Posted - 2009.09.10 12:10:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Dethleffs
I think the only thing lacking in Wspace is a system to properly order and cathegorise the insane amounts of bookmarks you end up with every day while making your way to kspace and back + all the sigs you scan down and be able to share them easily with your corpmates.
Originally by: ollobrains
I think a corparate bookmark scheme might work, sig and anamoly sites would be with permissions stored in a speerate folder - ccp could even introduce a 3-7 day time period for site bm storage ( sigs-amols only last 3 days) so that could be the limit.
Me too, here, go sign this, feature and ideas thread :)
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1172178
The Real Space Initiative - V5 (Forum Link)
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente
Death of Virtue
MeatSausage EXPRESS
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Posted - 2009.09.10 14:43:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Dodgy Past
Simply put you're doing it wrong.
Just because your character has the skills doesn't mean you as a player have them.
When living in worm hole I need one single scan with a combat probe to know the exact state of all the prior sigs in the w-hole and therefore anything new that needs scanning down.
When exploring a new worm hole I can normally identify the sigs of any other worm holes pretty quickly and scan them down. You on the other hand appear to expect to have everything handed to you on a silver platter.
If you get the right system you'll get links to other w-holes that are likely to be in regular use every day. I'm starting to miss one of our old systems as we'd encounter people in linking w-holes almost everyday..... though generally lose ships to them ;)
Simply put you're doing it wrong.
I'm not living in a wormhole system. I'm trying to move through as many w-space systems as quickly as possible in search of targets. With a single combat probe I can get the same results as you do, only I don't give a **** about those results. What I'm doing is completely different than what you're talking about, and therefore you have no relevance in this conversation since you can't seem to grasp simple concepts such as those put forth to you in the OP.
If you have any idea what I'm discussing you'll realize that I'm not going to sit around in a single system and wait for more wormhole connections.
--
Bellum Eternus
Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Tier 5 Battleships
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Princess Jodi
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2009.09.10 14:45:00 -
[49]
Are you guys searching from Empire or from deep 0.0? Cuz I do my WH searching from Tenal, and my experiences are quite different from what's described here.
I've been up to 2-WH's deep from a Tenal starting point without ever finding a WH to Empire space. Everything leads to another WH or occasionally another 0.0 system. Space is almost always empty of any players, although I have found a few POS's. Never been ganked or pirated.
To the OP: Working as intended.
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Skywalker
Minmatar
Darkness and Chaos
INFINITY.
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Posted - 2009.09.10 19:58:00 -
[50]
Bellum, we lived in WH for a few months now and i can't really follow your arguments.
WH space is best thing that happend to my game play (i'm a 2003 vet.), i used to be full time outlaw and the boring part with that was if you lived in low sec, moving around to new places to kill was a hassle. With WH's the world rotates around your WH base, and it's great, new places everyday.
WH, means no blobs, small scale PvP and still 0.0 like environments.
I love It !
My blog
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JZIM
Caldari
Einherjar Rising
Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2009.09.10 20:57:00 -
[51]
My wish list:
- Increase wormhole lifespan. 24 Hour 'stable' period after which the wormhole actually degrades instead of just 'vanishing'. Ie give the mass allowance of a wormhole a 12 hour half-life when it enters its decay cycle. Auto kill the decaying wh entrance after 5 days instead of 1.
- Give k-w space gateways a regional bias. When a k-w space entrance collapses make it so the new entrance has a 40% chance of spawning within 10 jumps, 30% within 20 jumps, 20% within 30 jumps, 10% anywhere in space.
- More w-w space gateways. Make the average number of exit gates in a w-space system 3-4, with at least a 2:1 bias towards w-w space gateways.
- Make gateways within w-space space significantly easier to probe. Maybe boost their signature by a factor of 10.
Figures are estimates, people with better number skills could probably balance them better. Idea would be to create a system within which an hours dedicated probing could get you:
- An entrance from k-w space.
- A network of 4-5 w space systems of various classes.
- 1-2 alternative exits from w-k space.
All gates would obviously be at varying stages of decay. The risk of being cut off for individuals would be reasonably low but would rapidly increase with ship size/numbers etc. Obviously chains would break regularly but an individual or small group could rely on their bookmarks for ~3 days.
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ollobrains
5th Front enterprises
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Posted - 2009.09.11 08:39:00 -
[52]
i think a new range of timed wormholes ( 4 hours up to 16 hours) so 4,8,12,16 ( would add more intractiveness) more randomness. And varying mass wormholes perhaps start it as low as 200m ( and allow for bs pass) up to 400m 500m 600m 800m mass.
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Dodgy Past
Amarr
Lollipops for Rancors
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Posted - 2009.09.11 09:54:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Dodgy Past
When exploring a new worm hole I can normally identify the sigs of any other worm holes pretty quickly and scan them down. You on the other hand appear to expect to have everything handed to you on a silver platter.
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Simply put you're doing it wrong.
I'm not living in a wormhole system. I'm trying to move through as many w-space systems as quickly as possible in search of targets. With a single combat probe I can get the same results as you do, only I don't give a **** about those results. What I'm doing is completely different than what you're talking about, and therefore you have no relevance in this conversation since you can't seem to grasp simple concepts such as those put forth to you in the OP.
If you have any idea what I'm discussing you'll realize that I'm not going to sit around in a single system and wait for more wormhole connections.
Bolded just to help you again Bellum.
I referred to both situations, either living in one or exploring a new one and looking for wormholes. If you live in a C4 for example you'll be exploring many linked systems looking for access to real space, i.e. scanning new systems for wormholes which is the thing you are whining about being too hard.
Yet somehow when I'm looking for wormholes in a new system I don't need to scan every sig. This is because I can get a good idea of what every sig is just by considering it's strength and distance from my probe.
Hope this is now clear enough for you.
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente
Death of Virtue
MeatSausage EXPRESS
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Posted - 2009.09.11 11:14:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Skywalker
Bellum, we lived in WH for a few months now and i can't really follow your arguments.
WH space is best thing that happend to my game play (i'm a 2003 vet.), i used to be full time outlaw and the boring part with that was if you lived in low sec, moving around to new places to kill was a hassle. With WH's the world rotates around your WH base, and it's great, new places everyday.
WH, means no blobs, small scale PvP and still 0.0 like environments.
I love It !
Sky- (and everyone else)
I *get* that you can make a base and have the world rotate around it and have new connections come to you. I've already done that. I don't want to do that anymore. I'd rather roam through w-space instead.
--
Bellum Eternus
Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Tier 5 Battleships
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Varrakk
Phantom Squad
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.09.11 11:38:00 -
[55]
Time sink.
The constant need to probe wherever you want to go drove me insane.
My stay in there was pretty short. Not having local to show you if there was anyone hostiles.
Probe the system once more, find a bunch of parked ships in towers.
Move on to next system in hope of a active soul or two.
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Seishi Maru
The Black Dawn Gang
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Posted - 2009.09.11 11:58:00 -
[56]
Somthign I was thinking. SOme peole want worm holes to be a ad more exploitable after you find it. But you cannto make them stable or would destroy the whoel idea of unknown space
Also makign worm holes, all of them stay alive for MUCh longer woudl be bad, because a lot of tiems they are Not interesting and you are waiting them to GO AWAY!
So how?
Well, CCP could create a new anchorable module that you can anchor at a wormhole entrance. That would have to STAY there.. and extends the wormhole life by 2-3 fold. That allows you to gather friends and explore IT for 1 or 2 days. BUT with a huge drawback.. when someone finds that wormhole,... he knows very likely someone is working there.
Also is a cost since the module would be destroyed when the wormhole collapses. Also those wormhole stablizers should be easy to to probe, easier thanthe wormholes themselves.
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Ad Valorem
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Posted - 2009.09.11 12:07:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Max Khaos
The major problem with WH Exporation is the amount of sigs when your trying to move forward.
The only change I would like is a WH Filter ....... simple.
Thanks
This, tbh
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Vin'calis
Interstellar Federal Forces
Forged Dominion
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Posted - 2009.09.11 12:36:00 -
[58]
Bellum, I can see what you're getting at, but W-space doesn't really cater to moving through multiple systems at speed. It's faster when you're only looking for the unknown signatures rather than pinpointing every single signature as an explorer might, but still very slow when compared to using stargates.
Tbh I like it that way, but then I'm primarily an explorer when in w-space and not looking purely for pvp. The current mechanics lend themselves to ambush-type tactics, where the aggressor is already in system and has scanned down the signatures so that he knows where to go when a target shows up. Not least because most people (who get into w-space) are at least slightly familiar with the directional scanner and are aware of the implications of a whole host of combat scanner probes suddenly appearing.
The way I see it, w-space is predominantly populated by 2 groups of people:
-> Residents. Groups who go in, set up a POS, and harvest the nearby signatures/adjacent systems. You'll only normally find these guys when they are shuttling resources to/from their POS or when they have lots of corpmates in system/one system over.
-> Roaming explorers. Single indivduals or small groups that will be based in k-space and wander a few systems into w-space in search of signatures to exploit. Unless they've actually found a signature then they'll be scanning in a covert cloaked ship and you'll never see them. Otherwise, you might catch one that's not paying enough attention to the D-scan.
I'd imagine a lot of the second group stage out of highsec (or at least the better targets will), and so your avoidance of highsec is probably a hindrance here. If you can find links to busier regions of highsec then there's often a fair chance of solo explorers wandering in, but otherwise w-space is quite empty as you say.
I'm of 2 minds about a filter specifically for wormhole signatures. It would make traversing through w-space easier and faster (for both hunters and their targets), but would take away some of the exploration part of the process (which is, after all, what w-space is all about). As you as you agree to a filter for wormholes everyone else cries for one for grav sites etc, and suddenly a filter has completely removed any uncertainty of what signature you have found.
In short: you *can* get kills in w-space, but it requires a fair bit of patience and a hell of a lot of scanning.
And Seishi: that anchorable module suggestion has some interesting possibilities. A lot of the appeal for me about w-space is the fact that it does change on a daily basis, but the ability for players to stabilise specific links (at cost) would add an extra dimension to it.
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