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Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2009.09.09 09:55:00 - [1] Since I've been bored with the stagnant and stale state of Eve's gameplay in empire/lowsec/0.0 I decided to revisit w-space and see what kind of PVP could be found there. When w-space was first introduced my alliance and I made a focused effort to be on the forefront of w-space exploration to exploit the resources and opportunities to be found there. That lasted all of a week. We quickly found that for the effort and resources we were committing to our w-space expedition we could be making as much or more ISK in empire farming missions (which we don't do anyway) with zero risk and zero headache, aside from the mind numbing boredom. Now I'm back in w-space for PVP rather than PVE. Sadly it's been frustrating and disappointing to say the least. The whole point of my w-space expedition is to PVP specifically in w-space where there is no local channel. I use two accounts, one dedicated prober and a dedicated combat ship. I started with a purpose built Arazu to use as a tackler/prober along with a Blasterthron but I've since changed my ship combination as that combo was promptly destroyed by a Hurricane and a Falcon. I'm on to my third iteration of ships now but so far haven't been able to find any targets (lol) to test my new combo on. I've been through many w-space systems. Over sixty. And of those I've only encountered other players twice. The majority of the systems are completely empty, followed by systems with POSes in them but no activity. And by no activity I mean that the system has tons of active plexes to be farmed. If someone has been active within a week to 10 days or so then the system is usually completely clean of any and all plexes. If it's currently active then you usually see wrecks or cans, if not actual player ships, as evidence. The largest hurdle to making contact with other players has been navigating w-space itself. There is a high incidence of w-space systems where they will only have one w-space connection (where I came from) and all the rest of the connections are to k-space. This is a big problem for those of us who wish to remain in w-space 100% of the time. Another issue is when those k-space links are all to high security space where I can't jump into without being killed by the navy. But the worst problem BY FAR is the time and effort that it takes to probe out and verify EVERY SINGLE COSMIC SIGNATURE IN THE SYSTEM in order to be able to travel from one w-space system to the next once you find that the current system is empty of players. <cont.> -- Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Tier 5 Battleships
Artemis Rose Sileo In Pacis The Space P0lice	Posted - 2009.09.09 10:09:00 - [2] Are you honestly asking/expecting the fringes of space you explored to be packed with people? Doesn't that defeat the whole purpose of exploring? *** Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine, Self Banstick +2 WTB: +666 E-peen killboard stats
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2009.09.09 10:11:00 - [3] <continued> So anyway, I wish to start a w-space discussion thread about how we might improve the gameplay and increase the w-space population and talk about ways to improve living in w-space in general. To me living in w-space is how I thought low-sec was going to be all along: very harsh- no access to supplies, no access to markets, what you have is what you bring with you. Solo/small gang roaming parties are really up against it when/if they encounter an enemy force. Just as the enemy doesn't know what you have, you don't know the full extent of their forces either. Having local gone doesn't mean an instant gank for those looking for kills. It's a very big disadvantage to be the new guy jumping into a completely new system. You don't have all the current wormholes probed out and scouted. There could be bubbles on the wormholes or enemy scouts already in place watching for traffic. There could be a large hostile force on the other side of a wormhole sitting in a POS and the current bunch of ships in system are simply an expeditionary force farming the resources of the system while the main operation stays in the neighboring system. Even if you're well versed in the art and nuance of probing and have max skills it still takes a bit of time to probe out wormholes, and this is besides the huge problem of having to sort wormholes from all the other cosmic signatures. Having to fly probes all around a system easily alerts all of those already in that system to your presence. So you have a choice: do you explore the system thoroughly with your probes for all the wormhole locations first or do you go after a target and hope you don't get blobbed? One of the best things about w-space is most of the time people aren't able to call in massive numbers in a short amount of time once they find your force. They don't know exactly how many you have, and they can't do things like hotdrop a carrier on you, even if they happen to have one in w-space at a POS next door. But, as I learned first hand, a single Falcon and the fight is over if you only have a few guys. For me personally the biggest problems I've been experiencing are having to sort wormholes from other cosmic signatures and being stuck in systems where there is only a single connection to other w-space systems, keeping me from travelling forward and continuing on with my exploration of w-space. How about the rest of you? -- Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Tier 5 Battleships
Freyya Advanced Planetary Exports Intergalactic Exports Group	Posted - 2009.09.09 10:18:00 - [4] Edited by: Freyya on 09/09/2009 10:20:13 Disguised BECAUSE OF FALCON thread. On a different note; W-Space is supposed to be the adventure you're having right now. Empty space with another explorer every now and then (with the occasional fully fledged Wspace corp with posses and complete armies and all that). Other than that i can say you're just unlucky in your probings perhaps. I've come across almost nothing but pos infested wspaces lately with accompanying army farming the plexes. I also know of several people who are doing quite well in Wspace pvp with just 2-4 guys, and i'm talking bc's tops here. Perhaps the big red minus prohibits you in going to the more populated wspaces since they usually tend to pop open in high sec. That's where i found my pos infected spots at least.. Edit: Indeed the sorting of said Wormholes from other sigs is a pian in the proverbial behind and the "low" amount of gateway to other wspace systems is indeed something annoying. On the other hand i feel it's a bit part of the exploring said empty and hazardous spaces... ___________ NOW COLLECTING ISD AND CCP AUTOGRAPHS It'll be worth something someday. -Rauth
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2009.09.09 10:19:00 - [5] Originally by: Artemis Rose Are you honestly asking/expecting the fringes of space you explored to be packed with people? Doesn't that defeat the whole purpose of exploring? No. I'm obviously making a post suggesting that we should discuss ways to further improve w-space and make it an enjoyable and rewarding experience. Only a complete idiot would derive something else from my post. -- Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Tier 5 Battleships
zelalot	Posted - 2009.09.09 10:21:00 - [6] Im dissappointed with WH space too....If the WH's were stable that would be worth the effort in scanning them down, then inside the WH's they went to a lucrative WH system.... Its just a ball ache to say the least to scan something down, get inside it not knowing if its going to collapse and take you miles away. Now if there were stable WH's that were stable i can see tones of fun exploring a WH out to find it goes from the South to the North or vice verssa. The fact they jump around and arent stable is what makes them useless to me.
LordSwift Caldari SWG-RoNaN-BloOdFiN	Posted - 2009.09.09 10:22:00 - [7] Quite odd since most the time i try to farm some wormholes i get ganked by about 5 people or more. Just must be the ones your going in. To be frank i would like W-Space to be safe from pvp but then again i dont. I just want to be able to explore unknown space as we should be able to. but without it being cut short and getting ganked.
Heroldyn	Posted - 2009.09.09 10:28:00 - [8] stable wormholes is amongst the worst things ccp could do. what makes wh space attractive & different is the fact that its not stable, and that it constantly changes and that you get out somewhere else as from where you got in. dont mistake wh space for 0.0 without sov. what they should do to improve wh space is actually the very opposite. they should make it even more dynamic and counter the current player initatives of catalogization of wh space, by for example hiding wh system names.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2009.09.09 10:30:00 - [9] Originally by: Freyya Disguised BECAUSE OF FALCON thread. On a different note; W-Space is supposed to be the adventure you're having right now. Empty space with another explorer every now and then (with the occasional fully fledged Wspace corp with posses and complete armies and all that). Other than that i can say you're just unlucky in your probings perhaps. I've come across almost nothing but pos infested wspaces lately with accompanying army farming the plexes. I also know of several people who are doing quite well in Wspace pvp with just 2-4 guys, and i'm talking bc's tops here. Perhaps the big red minus prohibits you in going to the more populated wspaces since they usually tend to pop open in high sec. That's where i found my pos infected spots at least.. Lol @ "because of Falcon". Anyhoo, I'm fine with w-space feeling all 'big and empty' and stuff. What I have an issue with is that I spend 99% of my time probing out every single cosmic signature in the system in order to verify that they're not wormholes. And if I disconnect or jump through a wormhole to see where it leads (not whether or not it goes to highsec/lowsec etc. but what system) I lose all of my 'discarded contacts' info and I have to start all over again. I could cover a lot more ground and there would be more player interaction/contact if wormholes were able to be placed in their own filter for probe results and if every w-space system had at least two wormholes leading to other w-space systems as a minimum. I've been making a database of every single w-space system I've been in, what was in it, and what happened there (contact, fights etc.). So far I have yet to occupy the same system twice, but on the other hand I haven't been to that many systems as it's taking me hours/days to move from one system to the next. Right now I'm in a system where every single wormhole leads to k-space. I'll just have to wait a day or so for new wormholes to spawn, but that's pretty fail if you ask me. I think the wormhole spawning algorithm needs to be separated into two components- one that spawns k-space connections and another that provides a web of w-space to w-space connections so that one is independent of the other, with w-space connections taking precedent over k-space if you start running into wormhole count limits for the system in question. -- Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Tier 5 Battleships
zelalot	Posted - 2009.09.09 10:32:00 - [10] For those that watch Star Trek if you have seen Deep Space 9 that is the sort of thing i am going on about. A stable worm hole that appears and dissappears on a set rotation. I find the WH's at the moment to unpredicatable and too time consuming. If you want to solo them its very hard to do not knowing what sort of grade WH you are entering. For WH to really get a buzz i would personally like to seem them more stable and predicatable and because i have spent time scanning it out, more lucrative, The AI involved is awesome dont change that . Also make stable Wormholes that connect all regions of space. if your in null space finding a WH that takes you right into the heart of your enemy that would be pretty fun and if its stable can you imagine that.....just to see all of a sudden your local bump with an enemy fleet, no intel, no nothing!

Simon Barrow Durgarnir	Posted - 2009.09.09 10:37:00 - [11] Originally by: Bellum Eternus ...No. I'm obviously making a post suggesting that we should discuss ways to further improve w-space... You are posting on the wrong sub forum then. General Discussion is for whining.
zelalot	Posted - 2009.09.09 10:43:00 - [12] Im not talking about making all WH's stable. I am talking about a few. From someone who lives in 0.0 i want to be able to go into a WH knowing firstly there is something in there worth the time i spent scanning it down. Most of the time i find plexes i cant solo, its not lucrative, and i would prefer to rat and plex in normal space knowing the system isn't going to have a period and **** off. In terms of stable, a few dotted around that contain plexes that are lucrative. but if you go in your cant come out for several hours. But when you can come out its to the system where it was. i dont know call them "stable plexing WH". then for the ones that run the stretch of the map (i.e. from the North to the south) "Travellers WH". Obviously keep the "unpredicatable WH's" but make more that are stable.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2009.09.09 10:53:00 - [13] Originally by: zelalot Im not talking about making all WH's stable. I am talking about a few. From someone who lives in 0.0 i want to be able to go into a WH knowing firstly there is something in there worth the time i spent scanning it down. Most of the time i find plexes i cant solo, its not lucrative, and i would prefer to rat and plex in normal space knowing the system isn't going to have a period and **** off. In terms of stable, a few dotted around that contain plexes that are lucrative. but if you go in your cant come out for several hours. But when you can come out its to the system where it was. i dont know call them "stable plexing WH". then for the ones that run the stretch of the map (i.e. from the North to the south) "Travellers WH". Obviously keep the "unpredicatable WH's" but make more that are stable. I used to think that more stable wormholes were the way to go. I don't anymore, and for exactly the reasons you've stated. W-space shouldn't be something that can be easily exploited by those in k-space. What you're describing is something similar to what the existing plexes are today: something that you can enter, get all the good stuff and get out and carry on with your regular 0.0 routine. You want to be able to live in 0.0 and experience what w-space has to offer without any of the risk. No thanks. I think that the current level of wormhole stability is just fine. Once you get used to operating in w-space you begin to get comfortable with the idea of wormholes not lasting for more than a few hours and the limitations of moving too much mass through a wormhole too often. I travel pretty light so I don't run into mass limits very often and I'm pretty mobile so I don't have too many issues with stability limits either. However, when I first entered w-space and installed a permanent presence there for an extended time I had to deal with the same issues and was always able to find a workable solution. Making w-space more static is not the way to go. It's current level of stability is just fine in my opinion. What needs to be looked at is w-space to w-space connectivity and how easily those wormholes are identified. The last patch went a long way to improving the scanning mechanics. It was a big step in the right direction. More development needs to follow, and quickly. -- Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Tier 5 Battleships
zelalot	Posted - 2009.09.09 11:07:00 - [14] Like i said i live in 0.0 and dont find any use for them at the moment. If they developed WH's that were stable and harder than the plexes we encounter in normal space that would be of benefit for people in 0.0. I see it all the time, we get people scanning and finding WH's and once they know the sig is a WH they move on and dont bother with it. I need isk to pvp and for the effort it takes to scan them out go inside and work out how to defeat the plex to get nothing but useless salvage i would rather stay in the region and rat and plex. As i said keep the unstable WH's they are good fun for those that dont have the oligations of running an alliance. i just think making WH's that are stable that run in zero zero and stay in zero zero opens up the whole "alliance WH op". At the moment we cant take fleets in to defeat the WH, we dont get anything of use from them, we need isk to pvp, and run our sov systems. What about stable WH's that run the entire lenght of the game that connect all regions of the game. it would connect the north and south and the east and west the north to the east etc. At the moment in zero zero the south are in the south doing there thing, the north are in the the north doing there thing.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2009.09.09 11:13:00 - [15] Originally by: zelalot Like i said i live in 0.0 and dont find any use for them at the moment. If they developed WH's that were stable and harder than the plexes we encounter in normal space that would be of benefit for people in 0.0. I see it all the time, we get people scanning and finding WH's and once they know the sig is a WH they move on and dont bother with it. I need isk to pvp and for the effort it takes to scan them out go inside and work out how to defeat the plex to get nothing but useless salvage i would rather stay in the region and rat and plex. As i said keep the unstable WH's they are good fun for those that dont have the oligations of running an alliance. i just think making WH's that are stable that run in zero zero and stay in zero zero opens up the whole "alliance WH op". At the moment we cant take fleets in to defeat the WH, we dont get anything of use from them, we need isk to pvp, and run our sov systems. What about stable WH's that run the entire lenght of the game that connect all regions of the game. it would connect the north and south and the east and west the north to the east etc. At the moment in zero zero the south are in the south doing there thing, the north are in the the north doing there thing. Right. Changing everything about what w-space is in order to bend it to suit 0.0 alliance needs and wants is total crap. You don't see any value to w-space because you're only considering it from your (very narrow) point of view. The wormhole mechanics that you're describing (super highways connecting the four corners of 0.0) is just ridiculous. In fact, due to jump bridges and WTZ the entirety of Eve has become dramatically smaller in scale with respect to the time it takes to travel from one area to another. The last thing we need to do is make that problem worse. -- Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Tier 5 Battleships
Slave 2739FKZ Minmatar	Posted - 2009.09.09 11:26:00 - [16] Edited by: Slave 2739FKZ on 09/09/2009 11:29:49 Signatures: Yeah biggest problem right now is you have to scan every stupid signature. So WH should use a different type of signature, make it more casual friendlly. Increase the time duration of wormholes too, so people can organize theirshelves to raid them, and increase w-w wormhole connections a big deal so people can easilly exploit the deepest wormholes so there will be more activity around and opportunity for combat. POSes: Only trully dedicated explorers should be able to settle wormholes. Make random BS slepeer fleets raid poses, these shouldn't drop any loot/wreck so it can't be exploited. Let's not forget about T3 though, as long as T3 is a glorified version of T2 HACs, people won't use them much so the concept must be trully rebalanced and even redesigned (CCP sounded very cool when they announced it, and its not even close to what they pretended them to be). It's hard to do soemthing interesting about them because EVE tactcial options are too few, combat needs a deep review in general and T3 could play a role into it. But this is a far reaching thing and outside of the scope of this thread, even if it's related. WIS is an expansion which allows EVE players to wear leather and walk around stations. Dust514 is a console shooter/rts which will tie into EVE and affect sov.
zelalot	Posted - 2009.09.09 11:31:00 - [17] Right. Changing everything about what w-space is in order to bend it to suit 0.0 alliance needs and wants is total crap. You don't see any value to w-space because you're only considering it from your (very narrow) point of view. - no im not and if you read what i wrote i said keep the unstablility of WH that to some is fun. Im talking about adding another dimension to try and make them more appealing to the 0.0 alliances. I spent well over a month scanning out WH's going into them and constantly being dissappointed and for the effort it takes to scan them out and the whole "whats in it for me" its more lucrative to stay in the systems and rat and plex. Even if normal plexes dont drop the "big loot" we still got paid. May be WH space just isnt for 0.0 space where most people want to stay close to home just incase reds are reported, we need isk for ships The wormhole mechanics that you're describing (super highways connecting the four corners of 0.0) is just ridiculous. In fact, due to jump bridges and WTZ the entirety of Eve has become dramatically smaller in scale with respect to the time it takes to travel from one area to another. The last thing we need to do is make that problem worse. - I dont agree with you there. Jump bridges are only useful for those that have sov and are blue. It would still take me well over an hour to get from the South to the North and i just think adding stable "highways" that connect all the regions of the game could be fun in terms of "Holy **** 300 man fleet has just appeared". The WH could stick around for a week and the dissappear. but it you read what i wrote i said by all means keep the unpredicatbale dynamic to suit the explorers.
Jint Hikaru OffWorld Exploration Inc	Posted - 2009.09.09 11:43:00 - [18] Quote: Right. Changing everything about what w-space is in order to bend it to suit 0.0 alliance needs and wants is total crap. You don't see any value to w-space because you're only considering it from your (very narrow) point of view. /This Quote: Im talking about adding another dimension to try and make them more appealing to the 0.0 alliances. I spent well over a month scanning out WH's going into them and constantly being dissappointed and for the effort it takes to scan them out and the whole "whats in it for me" its more lucrative to stay in the systems and rat and plex. Even if normal plexes dont drop the "big loot" we still got paid. May be WH space just isnt for 0.0 space where most people want to stay close to home just incase reds are reported, we need isk for ships Sounds to me that you are wanting, not only your big alliance only section of 0.0, to rat and make isk for ships etc, but you also want 'static' Wormholes so you can have all the rewards without the risk of being cut off from your precious alliance space. Static Wormhole space is simpy 0.0.... it wont be 5 mins before someone claims it and keeps everyone else out..... just like 0.0 WHs are fine the way they are (appart from filtering WH sigs on the scanner) ------------------------ Jint Hikaru - Miner / Salvager / Explorer "I've got a couple of Strippers on my ship... and they just love to dance!" ------------------------
Derus Grobb Selectus Pravus Lupus	Posted - 2009.09.09 11:47:00 - [19] OP is a load of dreary excrement. Wspace is bloody brilliant ---
zelalot	Posted - 2009.09.09 11:51:00 - [20] Sounds to me that you are wanting, not only your big alliance only section of 0.0, to rat and make isk for ships etc, but you also want 'static' Wormholes so you can have all the rewards without the risk of being cut off from your precious alliance space. Static Wormhole space is simpy 0.0.... it wont be 5 mins before someone claims it and keeps everyone else out..... just like 0.0 WHs are fine the way they are (appart from filtering WH sigs on the scanner) I suppose it depends on how you play your game. If you dont have the obligations of running an alliance in normal space and you play the game to explore then WH's are excellent. For a lot of use plexing ratting and mining in normal space is more useful to our cause.

Thernys Caldari Capital Construction Research Pioneer Alliance	Posted - 2009.09.09 12:35:00 - [21] Originally by: Derus Grobb OP is a load of dreary excrement. Wspace is bloody brilliant Confirming this. OP should get some friends instead of trying to change wspace mechanics to more of a solo pirate's playground. It can of course be that too, but you shouldn't expect it to be any less effort than low sec, rather the contrary... And you should expect to get ganked with no less likelihood than a solo wspace ratter. WH connections are not completely random and you may not always find the links you wish you were finding - don't see a problem here. As for further dumbing down the probing system, I didn't think that was possible but here we have an idea for that too ;) A thought, improve your methods instead of trying to mold the game into your current ones. Last week's highlights for us include stealing a large faction tower, receiving the generous donation of an Orca and killing a Thanatos (three separate occasions) along with some smaller engagements, some with kills, some without as things go. Clearly then it follows there's people out there, and it's just a matter of an organized effort to find them. Some luck comes in handy as well I suppose, but the frequency with which we run into people suggests wspace is definitely not empty. Just have to remember to pack your patience along. Instant and constant action for the masses can be found in level 4 missions or your friendly neighborhood gatecamp if wspace isn't to your liking. Tl;dr, wspace is just fine, takes some patience and offers some good fun for those who do put in the effort. Not necessarily the most casual environment, but then we already have high sec don't we.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2009.09.09 12:56:00 - [22] Originally by: Thernys stuff My probing methods are beyond reproach. I'm able to probe out/filter out probe contacts as fast as anyone in the game, and I'd probably put myself in the top 0.1% of all players in the game with respect to probing skill and experience. The amount of time required to categorize every single probe contact takes up 95% of my time. Particularly when there are 40+ sites in a system and maybe 2-3 wormholes. It's a major pain in the ass. I'm not asking for w-space to be dumbed down. I'm discussing what changes can be made to increase the incidence of player contact in w-space systems since they're probably the least populated systems in Eve. I'm sure your little group gets a lot of contact because you're probably farming in some class 4 system that has new wormholes opening up to lowsec/0.0 all the time so you have random people coming in to bother you. I'm not in a position to sit around and wait for a week to have three or four contacts with players. I am exceedingly patient in fact. Would you spend the better part of a week probing out wormhole after wormhole looking for ships to shoot? And after finding none, still continuing to do so? Or would you give up after just a few days straight with no results? I'm as organized and methodical as it gets when it comes to searching for targets. If I were able to cover more ground in less time then I'd probably have a higher incidence of contact with players than what exists currently. And bringing other players is simply not an option. What happens when they have to log off and I want to continue on? If I leave them behind then they're stranded in w-space. TL;DR, you don't know what you're talking about when it comes to what I'm attempting to do. Your operation in w-space is completely different from mine. When you've tried to accomplish what I'm doing then maybe you'll have some perspective. -- Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Tier 5 Battleships
Anslo The Aduro Protocol	Posted - 2009.09.09 13:14:00 - [23] Cry more. Next.
zelalot	Posted - 2009.09.09 13:21:00 - [24] Edited by: zelalot on 09/09/2009 13:21:10 Why did the discussion turn into a slagging match???? i think its a good discussion and if we can maintain a mature nature i think it could develop into a bright idea for the game. After all we are all after enjoying a game.
Haulerboi	Posted - 2009.09.09 13:25:00 - [25] Edited by: Haulerboi on 09/09/2009 13:26:44 Originally by: Bellum Eternus I use two accounts, one dedicated prober and a dedicated combat ship. There is your problem, with that fleet you can only expect to find a gankeable target in class 1 to 3 holes... and these have the most holes to empire space. You can try class 4 and higher but you are not finding a single carebear plexing them because they just cannot be done solo. I think it has to do with sleepers being so insanely overpowered. Add no local and 0.0 rules to that and you get a bunch of carebears not leaving their pos shields unless they can put a fleet big enough it doesn't get pwnd by sleepers. That is what happened to my corp. And now we are pulling off w-space. Tone down sleepers DPS and tank a bit and you will get more targets over there.
Ana Vyr	Posted - 2009.09.09 13:29:00 - [26] Edited by: Ana Vyr on 09/09/2009 13:29:52 Originally by: Bellum Eternus No. I'm obviously making a post suggesting that we should discuss ways to further improve w-space and make it an enjoyable and rewarding experience. Only a complete idiot would derive something else from my post. An enjoyable and rewarding experience for me would be NOT to have you trying to kill me while I'm exploring. Shrug. edit: fixed quote
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2009.09.09 13:42:00 - [27] Originally by: Haulerboi Edited by: Haulerboi on 09/09/2009 13:26:44 Originally by: Bellum Eternus I use two accounts, one dedicated prober and a dedicated combat ship. There is your problem, with that fleet you can only expect to find a gankeable target in class 1 to 3 holes... and these have the most holes to empire space. You can try class 4 and higher but you are not finding a single carebear plexing them because they just cannot be done solo. I think it has to do with sleepers being so insanely overpowered. Add no local and 0.0 rules to that and you get a bunch of carebears not leaving their pos shields unless they can put a fleet big enough it doesn't get pwnd by sleepers. That is what happened to my corp. And now we are pulling off w-space. Tone down sleepers DPS and tank a bit and you will get more targets over there. I can kill players in class 4/5/6 WH just fine. Killing them isn't the issue. It's finding them at all that is the problem. It's not that I'm running into targets that I can't kill. It's that I can't cover enough ground to find any target, anywhere. -- Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Tier 5 Battleships
XXSketchxx Gallente Remote Soviet Industries	Posted - 2009.09.09 14:34:00 - [28] Originally by: Derus Grobb OP is a load of dreary excrement. Wspace is bloody brilliant This. Op you aren't discussing anything as anyone who has truly experienced w-space knows what its for. Its not a solo-pirates target rich playground. Its not an instanced pve arena (the second you drop your guard is the second you get f'd). Its not a 0.0 sov alliance isk machine. It is for the small-middle sized corps to go out, work together, have some fun and make some money. Yes you can go solo and make some isk. Yes you can go solo and get some kills. But that is not what the "end-state" of w-space is about. On another note, w-space is not supposed to be 'easy' to traverse. If wormholes were even easier to find, then why not just have static wormholes? Oh yeah. Cause that would defeat the purpose of it all. Oh and honestly, I have traveled arouned myself. Go after the higher strength sigs and most of the time, you will find the wormhole relatively fast. If not, again oh well. Part of the feature that is w-space. You just want CCP to "fix" something you don't like. Anyone that has spent some time in w-space knows it is perfectly awesome the way it is. _____________________________________________ -Sketch, Certified Pharmacist Need a Boost?
Max Khaos Anger Management	Posted - 2009.09.09 14:40:00 - [29] The major problem with WH Exporation is the amount of sigs when your trying to move forward. I have all skills @ 5 and the Virtue Implants and its still a pain in the ass when you have 20-30-40 sigs ... The only change I would like is a WH Filter ....... simple. Thanks
Adunh Slavy	Posted - 2009.09.09 17:52:00 - [30] I like the fact that a WH system can't be scanned down and every exit found easily in a matter of minutes, but instead may take an hour. It makes it all feel larger, more mystery, more worm holey. There's lots to do out there, a number of steps to make it productive. If it were all roaming gangs all the time, it would be tiresome. The variety of tasks required to make it profitable keeps it interesting. Frankly I don't think the WHs them selves have enough mass to be able to handle the constant swapping of ships that would be needed to make productive use of the space and field a combat fleet too often. I spend a lot of time in W space, and I do see other ships from other corps often enough to make it an event, but not so often that it is common place. If it were common place, the feel of W space would be lost. I would like more information than vague words about time left on a hole, and the mass however. Getting trapped or waiting around for a collapse at who knows when exactly are the worst parts IMO. Time sink for the meh. The Real Space Initiative - V5 (Forum Link)



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