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Caleb Fury
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Posted - 2009.09.12 23:36:00 -
[1]
So up until recently when I switched to Drone boats, I had been mostly Amarr specced. I am about to finally get T2 Medium guns and will see what the fuss is about. I don't care about any particular nerfs which may be coming to lasers, since I suck at Eve and laser effectiveness isn't going to make me pwn any faces all of a sudden.
So Eve community, whats makes lasers "overpowered" if they are?
-Is it lack of reload times?
-Is it Scorch ammunition in particular?
-Is it the general consensus that projectiles need work?
-Also, will nerfing lasers automatically help the other weapon systems?
I've heard people say, "Well if Scorch range got reduced, it would be okay." So it seems like a large part of it could be related to the ammo. The issue is however, it's that it must be Scorch M and Scorch L because I can use Scorch S and its not really useful on frigate vessels (I could be wrong).
I am definitely not one of these guys trying to keep an edge by protecting what he is training, I just would like to know if there are particular things that could be changed and if nerfing lasers will solve the whole issue.
Thanks again guys. Fly safe
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Kovorix
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Posted - 2009.09.12 23:51:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Kovorix on 12/09/2009 23:52:15
The issue is that they are the midrange king of weapons. Pretty much all small-medium engagements in eve happen in what can be defined as midrange, and lasers are the only weapon which can do good damage while covering the entire field.
I think they could probably use a slight damage and/or tracking nerf, but nothing drastic. As it stands, I think it would be more balancing if CCP better defined projectile's role, as they are kind of like lasers, just crappy.
I personally believe blasters are more or less okay, perhaps in need of a tracking boost, but many people will debate that.
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Denuo Secus
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Posted - 2009.09.12 23:59:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Denuo Secus on 13/09/2009
Originally by: Caleb Fury So up until recently when I switched to Drone boats, I had been mostly Amarr specced. I am about to finally get T2 Medium guns and will see what the fuss is about. I don't care about any particular nerfs which may be coming to lasers, since I suck at Eve and laser effectiveness isn't going to make me pwn any faces all of a sudden.
So Eve community, whats makes lasers "overpowered" if they are?
-Is it lack of reload times?
-Is it Scorch ammunition in particular?
-Is it the general consensus that projectiles need work?
-Also, will nerfing lasers automatically help the other weapon systems?
I've heard people say, "Well if Scorch range got reduced, it would be okay." So it seems like a large part of it could be related to the ammo. The issue is however, it's that it must be Scorch M and Scorch L because I can use Scorch S and its not really useful on frigate vessels (I could be wrong).
I am definitely not one of these guys trying to keep an edge by protecting what he is training, I just would like to know if there are particular things that could be changed and if nerfing lasers will solve the whole issue.
Thanks again guys. Fly safe
I won't say lasorz are overpowered. They are kings of the med range. And quick ammo change helps alot. There damage type drawback is past. So indeed - it's a nice weapon. And I see the problems when comparing blasters with lasors. But I personally would buff blasters instead nerf lasors!
But at the same time they are very vulnerable against every EW type. When duelling with my Amarr specialized corp mate I know exactly what to do against him:
- TD negates it's damage potential by a huge margin - ECM ofc - Neut will ruin it's ability to fire more than any other weapon system - SD maybe if they are used at med range (not sure here) - In addition: it's damage type is predictable
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Save the missiles from the glowing blob :S
R ----------> * A --------> * V --------> * E -------> * N ---------> *
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Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.09.13 00:10:00 -
[4]
Lasers are fine.
What people are really complaingin about is:
Scorch M/L
But imo they are ok, its just other T2 ammo that bites so hard.
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http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html |
VanNostrum
The Littlest Hobos Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.09.13 00:15:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Caleb Fury So up until recently when I switched to Drone boats, I had been mostly Amarr specced. I am about to finally get T2 Medium guns and will see what the fuss is about. I don't care about any particular nerfs which may be coming to lasers, since I suck at Eve and laser effectiveness isn't going to make me pwn any faces all of a sudden.
So Eve community, whats makes lasers "overpowered" if they are?
-Is it lack of reload times?
-Is it Scorch ammunition in particular?
-Is it the general consensus that projectiles need work?
-Also, will nerfing lasers automatically help the other weapon systems?
I've heard people say, "Well if Scorch range got reduced, it would be okay." So it seems like a large part of it could be related to the ammo. The issue is however, it's that it must be Scorch M and Scorch L because I can use Scorch S and its not really useful on frigate vessels (I could be wrong).
I am definitely not one of these guys trying to keep an edge by protecting what he is training, I just would like to know if there are particular things that could be changed and if nerfing lasers will solve the whole issue.
Thanks again guys. Fly safe
there are no particular nerfs coming to lasers
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Zaerlorth Maelkor
The Maverick Navy Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.09.13 00:15:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Sidus Isaacs Lasers are fine.
What people are really complaingin about is:
Scorch M/L
But imo they are ok, its just other T2 ammo that bites so hard.
This really. Especially T2 close range ammo for both projectiles and hybrids suck donkey balls. However, you might want to consider a few things, first of all; I now have one of those annoying sigs. second; you should probably move on to some more interesting things than reading this sig.
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The Djego
Minmatar Hellequin Inc.
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Posted - 2009.09.13 00:18:00 -
[7]
Tracking+range+dps in a very good mix with scorch, aswell as preaty stunning DPS with multis(a bit worse off against the plated tank but they crush most T2 ships with ease).
In general the ease with range in EvE PVP what slowed down quite a bit with QR making range a lot more important.
For me paticular, Lasers where preaty awsome even before QR. Big change was the reduced speed, missle changes and the 60% Web that nerfed the hardest DPS dealers in one way or the other(paticular blaster ships) while suiting Amarr the best.
Basicly if someone give blasters back the bite(mostly a usefull web, some minor ship changes and a bit more DPS) and minis a bit more ease at range with AKs + Tempest and particular large AK issues I donŠt see much need to nerf Lasers. Torps should also sligthly buffed again in her ability to hit BS sized targets for next to full damage without much webbing/painting(not realy a huge one, but I feel it lost a bit bite what should be restored since the torp raven was preaty much fine pre QR in my books, speeking from the reciving end here).
Amarr ships work preaty well, the bad thing is they also scale very very well, meaning that the gank+range+tank focus works in preaty much any gang(even solo) and gets better as more ships you throw into a fight(thats the main diffrence to mini and gallente ships).
- yes projektiels need work - any nerf to one thing is a boost to a other thing - Scorch S can hit up to 10km with full damage, even if you think changing range in a frig is easy it gets harder in bigger ships and in PVP it can make a very big diffrence combined with clever piloting having one ship doing next to full damage and the other one next to zero ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank!
Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
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AstroPhobic
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2009.09.13 00:20:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Sidus Isaacs Lasers are fine.
What people are really complaingin about is:
Scorch M/L
But imo they are ok, its just other T2 ammo that bites so hard.
As someone with large energy turrets 5/BS 5 - no. Too much damage at too much range with too much tracking at these optimals.
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Denuo Secus
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Posted - 2009.09.13 00:20:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Zaerlorth Maelkor
Originally by: Sidus Isaacs Lasers are fine.
What people are really complaingin about is:
Scorch M/L
But imo they are ok, its just other T2 ammo that bites so hard.
This really. Especially T2 close range ammo for both projectiles and hybrids suck donkey balls.
Conflag is meh too. Every close range ammo is topped by faction ammo. Scorch as long range T2 ammo is great - exactly like Barrage and Null.
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Save the missiles from the glowing blob :S
R ----------> * A --------> * V --------> * E -------> * N ---------> *
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Gram Hellfire
Priory Of The Lemon Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.09.13 00:22:00 -
[10]
you can remove pulse lasers and i would not care; just don't touch my beams :)
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Caleb Fury
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Posted - 2009.09.13 00:22:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Zaerlorth Maelkor
Originally by: Sidus Isaacs Lasers are fine.
What people are really complaingin about is:
Scorch M/L
But imo they are ok, its just other T2 ammo that bites so hard.
This really. Especially T2 close range ammo for both projectiles and hybrids suck donkey balls.
I was reading the stats on Conflag, and its would appeap to suck aswell.
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Liang Nuren
The Hull Miners Union Gentlemen's Club
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Posted - 2009.09.13 00:30:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Denuo Secus Conflag is meh too. Every close range ammo is topped by faction ammo. Scorch as long range T2 ammo is great - exactly like Barrage and Null.
Fortunately, you have AN MF! Also, Barrage isn't as good as you think it is. I mean, yeah, it makes Minmatar ships flyable, but it loses alot of its damage by the time it connects with you 15-20km later. :)
As for what's wrong with lasers? They deal too much damage at range, compared to the other ships. I know, I know, there's down sides: - Cap use - Static damage types (and EM being the "easiest" to tank on Armor tanked BS) - Fittings - Ship versatility (See: 3 mid slot Geddon)
But there's lots and lots of up sides: - EM isn't that bad. And most times, almost 50% of the damage comes from Thermal. - EM is that awesome vs Shield tanks (See: Frigs/Cruisers/Battlecruisers) - Lasers have fantastic tracking at range. - Optimal bonus mods affect ships with high optimal more - No hit quality degradation in optimal - Near blaster level base DPS at 3x the range - Damage projection over entire field of battle - "Instant" ammo change - Better overall ships as ship sizes increase - Ships get better as gang sizes increase. Gang sizes are increasing.
Eh, the list really goes on and on and on. Lasers have a lot of advantages. Thus, I'm training them on 2 characters now, and I'll be starting the third soon. The recent round of faction ship buffs has shown me the light: CCP has no intention of stopping the Boost Train to Amarr, nor the Nerf Train to Minmatar. :)
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
Lili Lu
Purveyors of Uber Research Valuables and Ships
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Posted - 2009.09.13 01:19:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Liang Nuren Lasers have a lot of advantages. Thus, I'm training them on 2 characters now, and I'll be starting the third soon. The recent round of faction ship buffs has shown me the light: CCP has no intention of stopping the Boost Train to Amarr, nor the Nerf Train to Minmatar. :) -Liang
Scorch is good. Part of it is exagerated by optimal bonuses on zealots and apocs. The answer is not to nerf it, lasers, or amarr ships, but to buff other guns/ammo. Blasters need more falloff. Projectiles need more damage, and/or less split in types of it, or more rof.
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Renarla
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Posted - 2009.09.13 03:54:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Caleb Fury
-Is it Scorch ammunition in particular?
Pretty much. Scorch allows Cruisers and especially Battleships to do almost as much damage as Blasters at over 5 times the range. However, on another note, I now have one of those annoying sigs. |
Darthewok
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.09.13 04:18:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Lili Lu The answer is not to nerf it, lasers, or amarr ships, but to buff other guns/ammo. Blasters need more falloff. Projectiles need more damage, and/or less split in types of it, or more rof.
^^
nerfing lasers will make EVE less fun. boosting the range of other races' short range guns will make EVE more fun.
ofc plse still allow Amarr a slight damage advantage otherwise there is no point to Amarr, as the whole race has no other major advantages than good guns (minny has speed, gal has drones, caldari has ECM, amarr has only... gunz).
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Liang Nuren
The Hull Miners Union Gentlemen's Club
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Posted - 2009.09.13 04:25:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Darthewok (minny has speed, gal has drones, caldari has ECM, amarr has only... gunz).
Fixed. Also, I think you're forgetting the Curse, Sac, etc. :)
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
Cracken
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.09.13 04:39:00 -
[17]
Blasters do not need more falloff what is needed is alot more dps in their very narrow engagement envelope and a very small increase in tracking.
(The important points are bolded for you convenience.
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Darthewok
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.09.13 04:44:00 -
[18]
heh ok amarr has some other advantages than lasers. curses and sac and such. however, a lot of their ships are pretty one-dimensional flying guns and not a whole lot more.
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Mahke
Aeon Of Strife
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Posted - 2009.09.13 05:55:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Gram Hellfire you can remove pulse lasers and i would not care; just don't touch my beams :)
you can remove beam lasers and i would not care; just don't touch my pulses :)
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Davinel Lulinvega
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Posted - 2009.09.13 06:05:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Darthewok
Originally by: Lili Lu The answer is not to nerf it, lasers, or amarr ships, but to buff other guns/ammo. Blasters need more falloff. Projectiles need more damage, and/or less split in types of it, or more rof.
^^
nerfing lasers will make EVE less fun. boosting the range of other races' short range guns will make EVE more fun.
ofc plse still allow Amarr a slight damage advantage otherwise there is no point to Amarr, as the whole race has no other major advantages than good guns (minny has speed, gal has drones, caldari has ECM, amarr has only... gunz).
Thirding this.
Originally by: CCP Tuxford Now the op looks like a weirdo that can't read kekekeke!
inb4 stealth edit |
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Spaztick
Terminal Impact Kairakau
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Posted - 2009.09.13 06:42:00 -
[21]
It was a mix of:
- The armor changes (removing 10% EM armor resist to other areas, namely explosive, effectively buffing Amarr DPS by ~15% and nerfing Minmatar's). - The tracking boost to lasers (unecessary and unneeded, especially considering their huge optimals). - Scorch. God damn does Scorch **** me off.
So in a nutshell Amarr got a huge DPS, tracking and optimal boost.
Quote: [21:18:10] SFShootme > first a carrier that goes boom, then mr viper had to find one of my goon alts, and now i'm down 182b ;( |
arbiter reformed
Minmatar Annihilate. Minor Threat.
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Posted - 2009.09.13 07:09:00 -
[22]
Edited by: arbiter reformed on 13/09/2009 07:10:15 MISSILES FTW TBH
im amarr and fly the sac as my choice of hac since the locus nerf, (unless im sniping) and i have more gun skills than missiles.
REAL MEN FLY PHANTASMS
its the zealot with pulses that can be crazy, the 20km scorch op isnt overpowerd but maybee the 45 km optimal the zealot can get aparently is, all i know is when my zealot had 57 km pulses and 3 times the traking no1 seemed to call for nerfs and it wasnt like there speed compensated for it lol. anyway i think its acceptable on a zealot as you have a serious lack of defences past your optimal (ie most frigates will solo you once there in) and the single lse zealots you see everywhere are basicly t1 cruiser hp wise even deimoss have more staying power lol
scorch l is a bit much tho traking could do with a nerf Signature graphics that may only contain your character name, corporation logo, corporation or personal slogan or other text that is directly related to your in-game persona, or content directly related to Eve Online. All content must be in good taste.Applebabe |
Manu Hermanus
FaDoyToy
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Posted - 2009.09.13 07:16:00 -
[23]
a while ago players were faster and would fit active tanks and nos would work all the time, so gallente did quite well, closing 20km distances in under 30 seconds. also players tended to look at balance issues in either 1v1 or blob VS blob situations and small-med gang setups were mostly ignored. so 1v1 mega vs amarr ship the mega would get close where its superior tracking/damage/damage type would beat most amarr ships
on my first gate camp one of the first things I noticed was that my optimal is 14km... wait that is how far away things decloak from me... BRILLIANT! plus our area had a bunch of people set up for kin/therm, so em had a nice hole to go for.
hell I had a 1km/s torp raven, now that was good for ratting
on close range weapons: personally I think the minmatar should have vastly more falloff so at current ranges they do more damage (short to mid range), and have a chance at getting a lucky hit at med-long range (although also sucks how falloff reduces hit quality and quantity so much). gallente should have absolute supremacy under 10km, amarr takes over around 15km. and minmatar gets a) in between, b) up close against amarr, c) kites gallente, d) speed tanks caldari
I guess the issue with that is that gallente doesn't fit into the current mid gang rr fleet metagame. although if you know you are going to be going up against a heavily amarr fleet get your ass a good warp in point
tbh I don't know how much of is it that some people are just whiny and lazy and will complain if they feel something else has even the slightest advantage?
or maybe the solution is each turret type should have its own formula and we should stop trying to force all turrets to perform as intended by squeezing so many variables into the same formula? it might make it a bit harder to generalize tracking info, but all the formulas in the worlds aren't anywhere near intuitive as compared to "get in there and melt face" or use your range advantage to control the flow of battle.
although the "rr gang" has to be in a tight bubble or else their RR is ineffective. so a mega should be pretty much the best choice there anyways. not to mention em is the worst type to shoot.
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Leather Jack
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.09.13 07:45:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Manu Hermanus gallente should have absolute supremacy under 10km, amarr takes over around 15km. and minmatar gets a) in between, b) up close against amarr, c) kites gallente, d) speed tanks caldari
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slightly sillydude
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Posted - 2009.09.13 10:05:00 -
[25]
Scorch M and L are way over the top imo. Especially considering the tracking. Medium get 20 something optimal and large get 40 something with no optimal bonuses or mods. In what sense is that close range ammo?
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Fon Revedhort
XMX Corp Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2009.09.13 10:16:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Fon Revedhort on 13/09/2009 10:16:26
I for one support the idea Scorch is the problem.
It could use a bit of rebalancing, like making it more a falloff ammo just like barrage or null. So that HP II hits at 15 for full damage and then it goes into 10 km of falloff (instead of current 22.5+5) and MP II - 30+20 (instead of 45+10).
Sounds reasonable to me. ---[center] Please resize your signature to the maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist |
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2009.09.13 10:40:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Liang Nuren Fortunately, you have AN MF! Also, Barrage isn't as good as you think it is...
You also have Navy AM, Fleet EMP etc. They are all way better than T2 alternatives. And barrage combined with the inherent high tracking of ACs makes all the difference. Lasers have a comparatively low tracking.
Originally by: Liang Nuren But there's lots and lots of up sides: - EM isn't that bad. And most times, almost 50% of the damage comes from Thermal. - EM is that awesome vs Shield tanks (See: Frigs/Cruisers/Battlecruisers) - Lasers have fantastic tracking at range. - Optimal bonus mods affect ships with high optimal more - No hit quality degradation in optimal - Near blaster level base DPS at 3x the range - Damage projection over entire field of battle - "Instant" ammo change - Better overall ships as ship sizes increase - Ships get better as gang sizes increase. Gang sizes are increasing.
Most of these are due to the synergy between Tracking Enhancers and Pulse Lasers. Amarr have oodles of lowslots and pretty much HAVE to use tracking/damage mods since any target that gets closer than 1/2 optimal will normally be "under the guns". Flipside is sub-par tank/hitpoints .. but it is the current fitting paradigm which results in a perceived imbalance. Using the fact that gangs are getting bigger as an argument is neither here nor there. Lasers on Amarr laser boats work very poorly when not in a gang situation, whereas Gallente/Minmatar work equally well in and out of gangs. If you are unable to dictate engagement range (ex. jumping into an enemy) ships like the Zealot die in the first few seconds as they are high dps/range but fragile .. essentially cruiser sized Coercers
Originally by: Liang Nuren Eh, the list really goes on and on and on. Lasers have a lot of advantages. Thus, I'm training them on 2 characters now, and I'll be starting the third soon.
Good to hear. Lasers are very enjoyable when you play to their strengths, just be wary of the pit-falls (you'll know what I mean when you lose a Zealot to a t1 frigate)
Issues that needs to be looked at to ballance weapons: - M/L Projectile Ammunition, need more oomph. - M/L Blasters, increase tracking and/or optimal. Still haven't heard result of new tracking formula fix so may be a non-issue now. - T2 close range ammo. Useless in 99% of fights, ouclassed by faction ammo. Needs redesign.
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Cpt Branko
Beyond Divinity Inc Beyond Virginity
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Posted - 2009.09.13 11:11:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 13/09/2009 11:13:22
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
You also have Navy AM, Fleet EMP etc. They are all way better than T2 alternatives. And barrage combined with the inherent high tracking of ACs makes all the difference.
The problem with Barrage is the nature of falloff firing; it's simply inferior to firing in optimal. It does make ACs a lot better then they would be without Barrage, but you shouldn't overestimate its effectiveness (and effective use of Barrage in a 20km sphere demands 3x falloffs on a T1 ship).
If I plan on engaging often from 20km in gangs, I will always take artilleries over ACs, because they do in fact outdamage them in that range bracket and get 3 extra rig slots.
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Most of these are due to the synergy between Tracking Enhancers and Pulse Lasers. Amarr have oodles of lowslots and pretty much HAVE to use tracking/damage mods since any target that gets closer than 1/2 optimal will normally be "under the guns".
Vs smaller targets or something (where all guns will fail).
There is no reason not to track a target of equal size, in 1/2 AN MF optimal well enough with a minimum of traversal control. I deal with badly tracking guns on a daily basis - I tend to use medium arties a lot (and they're the worst tracking gun, bar none).
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
BiggestT
Caldari Amarrian Retribution
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Posted - 2009.09.13 12:43:00 -
[29]
If they reduce the ridiculous fitting req's for shield rr, shield tanks/ shield gangs would be stronger, em holes would have less of an impact, and lasers might not need a nerf.
Conversely it may make lasers more OP as they'd be essential to stop the shield-rr raven gangs *shrug* EVE Trivia EVE History
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Caleb Fury
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Posted - 2009.09.13 13:34:00 -
[30]
Originally by: slightly sillydude Scorch M and L are way over the top imo. Especially considering the tracking. Medium get 20 something optimal and large get 40 something with no optimal bonuses or mods. In what sense is that close range ammo?
Well I definitely see what you're saying, but how short is short? Do you need to lower the optimal on the guns themselves? Maybe less of a range bonus from Scorch?
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