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Buxaroo Gallente The Maverick Navy IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.27 22:14:00 - [721] Originally by: Trishtan DeMore Originally by: The Internets It was far from perfect. Unlike people who search for instant gratification, 30m HP 10k DPS+ supercarriers would become very problematic when everyone and their dog would be flying one, especially since a moving target would make Dreads unreliable as a counter. Heck, right now there are hundreds of motherships in game despite being fairly terrible, with the proposed buffs they initially had for Dominion, there would be thousands of these things flying around as demand and production would skyrocket. CCP has to plan for the future. Players only see the present. The Supercarrier changes were a AoE Titan DDD level of 'bad idea'. But since these are the EVE forums, everything was met with whines and knee-jerk crying. Try to fly one first. Think about it and comment later. What would be the problem if the MS finally would've had it's role as a cap killer. On Sisi I could tank an MS quite fine over 5 minutes until I was down in a triage carrier with 20 Fighter Bombers on me. That's more than a reasonable time for a capkiller to kill it's prey. Not to mention the effect of RR carriers against you. Double damage compared to a Dreadnaught was excellent. 10 MS = 20 dreads and this is a picture you often see. ISK commited: 150bn to 30bn(probably insured). 1:5 ratio ISK wise, 1:2 damage ratio. So what is your trouble with a ship ****ty expensive finally worth something? Oh, you don't have or can't fly one. Well, whatever Shhhhhhh, reason and experience has no place in this here thread
Rexthor Hammerfists Rage of Inferno Zenith Affinity	Posted - 2009.11.27 22:19:00 - [722] You should also add that if one side depends on the supercarrier dps the other fc has plenty options to neutralize that dps. 3-4 bombers would take out a fighterbomber i assume - or a few snipehacs or even bcs could inflict serious damage if prepared with an oversetup and their own target calling. -
Serena Ku Gallente	Posted - 2009.11.28 03:51:00 - [723] Originally by: Rexthor Hammerfists You should also add that if one side depends on the supercarrier dps the other fc has plenty options to neutralize that dps. 3-4 bombers would take out a fighterbomber i assume - or a few snipehacs or even bcs could inflict serious damage if prepared with an oversetup and their own target calling. qft; I had to constantly yo-yo my FBs or recall them to bay when fighting some pilots who actually knew how to fight such as Tri, PL, IT, etc. SC/Mom + FBs were not overpowered as some say, and even in a gang their only offensive method can be easily countered and destroyed by a 25m isk ABing ship in most situations. Then there's the laggy large battle scenarios with support mowing away your Fighters or Fighterbombers, oh and good-luck recalling them in the lag.
The Internets	Posted - 2009.11.28 04:14:00 - [724] Originally by: Trishtan DeMore Try to fly one first. Think about it and comment later. What would be the problem if the MS finally would've had it's role as a cap killer. On Sisi I could tank an MS quite fine over 5 minutes until I was down in a triage carrier with 20 Fighter Bombers on me. That's more than a reasonable time for a capkiller to kill it's prey. Not to mention the effect of RR carriers against you. Double damage compared to a Dreadnaught was excellent. 10 MS = 20 dreads and this is a picture you often see. ISK commited: 150bn to 30bn(probably insured). 1:5 ratio ISK wise, 1:2 damage ratio. So what is your trouble with a ship ****ty expensive finally worth something? Oh, you don't have or can't fly one. Well, whatever I've flown all of them minus the Wyvern and currently own a Nyx that's been sitting on an account for the last year. ISK cost isn't particularly smart to balance around. In early EVE Battleships were sights to behold, just a few years back a single capital kill would warrant a post in CAOD with lengthy replies. Power creep at it's finest. A giant blob of ewar immune supercarriers, remote repping eachother, with the capability to put out ridiculous DPS is what was going to happen, and CCP stopped it before it happened. The majority of current mothership pilots are just too boo-hoo hurt because their toys didn't become horrifically imbalanced. 20 supercarriers with the initial proposed changes would be able to tank ~110+ Dreadnoughts comfortably. Weapon system can be destroyed? Guess what! You could use those pilots who used to fly Dreadnoughts (now practically useless) to come along in support ships! At some point super capital blobs will be common place. Remember when ASCN lost a Titan? Now there's around 260 of them (known) with scores of them being destroyed. CCP reports were guessing at around 600-800 motherships (in their currently practically useless state in actual combat)? The proposed buffs would bring THOUSANDS of these ships in the future. But since the majority of you are too dense to see past the personal ramifications that these withdrawn buffs caused to yourselves, you'll call me a troll and keep crying. Idiots.
Serena Ku Gallente	Posted - 2009.11.28 05:03:00 - [725] Edited by: Serena Ku on 28/11/2009 05:06:18 Originally by: The Internets stuff I agree with some points you brought up, but if you really feel the original HP buff idea made the motherships overpowered, then clearly you gotten too used to hotdropping poor solo ratting Ravens or never used them in a large scale fight. At this point I'm happy with just a HP buff on top of the existing TQ motherships if anything. I disagree with the whole idea of cheap docking supercarriers which I personally feel is imbalanced. Just my 2 cents.
Li Na	Posted - 2009.11.28 18:49:00 - [726] Well final dominion patch supposedly out on SISI Motherships are the same as on live right now so they are now worse than what they were before congrats CCP.
The Internets	Posted - 2009.11.28 20:23:00 - [727] Originally by: Serena Ku Edited by: Serena Ku on 28/11/2009 05:25:44 Originally by: The Internets stuff I agree with some points you brought up, but if you feel the original HP buff idea made the motherships overpowered... then I don't know what to say to you about that. At this point I'm happy with just a HP buff on top of the existing TQ motherships if anything. I disagree with the whole idea of cheap docking supercarriers which I personally feel is imbalanced. Just my 2 cents. Oh no, HP buff is more than reasonable for their production cost, it was just that coupling it with the new weapon system while still retaining the ability to be a part of spider capital tanking was overboard. Frankly removing supercarrier's ability to use remote rep/cap transfers would have probably been a decent solution to the entire mess.
LoveKebab Caldari Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2009.11.28 20:36:00 - [728] investing 15bil into a ship that can die in 15 secounds to 3 titans \o/ CHANGE THE GODDAMN HEL BONUS OMG ... Its the only MS that has bonus that's even usefull for self survival ... Aeon / Wyvern - more resists = more ehp, better survivalibility Nyx - more dps = hostiles die faster, better survivalibility Hel - less RR cycle = lmao Just change the HP and that fail bonus for now and most ppl will even shut up (at least for some time) since it's ******ed to have a SUPERCAPITAL that can die within secounds EVEN IN LOWSEC ;O xVid4PSP MKV Encoding Tutorial
Arzal D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2009.11.29 04:01:00 - [729] Originally by: LoveKebab investing 15bil into a ship that can die in 15 secounds to 3 titans \o/ CHANGE THE GODDAMN HEL BONUS OMG ... Its the only MS that has bonus that's even usefull for self survival ... Aeon / Wyvern - more resists = more ehp, better survivalibility Nyx - more dps = hostiles die faster, better survivalibility Hel - less RR cycle = lmao Just change the HP and that fail bonus for now and most ppl will even shut up (at least for some time) since it's ******ed to have a SUPERCAPITAL that can die within secounds EVEN IN LOWSEC ;O i agree with LK, except that the hell bonus is not the most important change, tbh changing it so moms can survive ibn a normal cap fight would be a start.
LoveKebab Caldari Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2009.11.29 08:13:00 - [730] yea hel bonus is not THAT important but still its the only bonus that's not useful for hel itself compared to other motherships xVid4PSP MKV Encoding Tutorial
Johndalar	Posted - 2009.11.29 10:38:00 - [731] As it stands now CCP made a ship that has no use in this game, it is a useless ship. The Hel's bonus does not scale well like the others. There is no reason to use one over a Niddy they rep the same! Mom's with resist bonus get better with more ehp (with the ehp boost it is pushes it over the top as the best bonuse/ never look at the other Mom's) Nix get more dps with more Fighters to control Hel's bonus works the same on the Niddy, no real benefit to use this ship. Now I know they were looking into changing its bonus but in the mean time just pop its bonus to 7.5 so there is a reason to own one. (I will always call them Mom's, till judgment day takes me, when I see one I see a Mothership)
Oljud Zork Evolution IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.29 11:35:00 - [732] The Patch notes for Dominion. Take a look on FIXES and scroll down to MODULES. Remote ECM burst modules now has a chance of affecting the target ship. The description of the Remote ECM Burst I module and skill was improved. What have CCP done to the Remote ECM Burst? Regards // Zork
Cpt AngelKnight	Posted - 2009.11.29 12:03:00 - [733] Edited by: Cpt AngelKnight on 29/11/2009 12:03:40 Originally by: Johndalar As it stands now CCP made a ship that has no use in this game, it is a useless ship. The Hel's bonus does not scale well like the others. There is no reason to use one over a Niddy they rep the same! Mom's with resist bonus get better with more ehp (with the ehp boost it is pushes it over the top as the best bonuse/ never look at the other Mom's) Nix get more dps with more Fighters to control Hel's bonus works the same on the Niddy, no real benefit to use this ship. Now I know they were looking into changing its bonus but in the mean time just pop its bonus to 7.5 so there is a reason to own one. (I will always call them Mom's, till judgment day takes me, when I see one I see a Mothership) How about we let supper carriers be super carriers and open up the door for CCP to create REAL Motherships. Granted some more brainstorming needs to be done around actual motherships but there are some good ideas out there. http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1200517&page=6 EDIT: Fixed Link
LoveKebab Caldari Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2009.11.29 12:59:00 - [734] Originally by: Johndalar As it stands now CCP made a ship that has no use in this game, it is a useless ship. The Hel's bonus does not scale well like the others. There is no reason to use one over a Niddy they rep the same! Mom's with resist bonus get better with more ehp (with the ehp boost it is pushes it over the top as the best bonuse/ never look at the other Mom's) Nix get more dps with more Fighters to control Hel's bonus works the same on the Niddy, no real benefit to use this ship. Now I know they were looking into changing its bonus but in the mean time just pop its bonus to 7.5 so there is a reason to own one. (I will always call them Mom's, till judgment day takes me, when I see one I see a Mothership) doesnt matter if it gets 7.5% per level, dont tell me u would use Hel for RR if u can lose it or use 2 nidds with 5% while losing them is not rly a blow to ur wallet ... there was a sugestion of changing Hel bonus to Fighter hp once and imo it was a very good idea xVid4PSP MKV Encoding Tutorial
Natasha Nikolaev	Posted - 2009.11.30 01:46:00 - [735] Edited by: Natasha Nikolaev on 30/11/2009 01:50:47 Originally by: Oljud Zork What have CCP done to the Remote ECM Burst? I'm guessing it means that right now the ship you select as the centerpoint for the burst didn't have a chance of getting jammed, but now it does and that they made the description of the ecm burst longer/more accurate/clearer/whatever. In other words: they didn't fix the biggest thing broken with it: it's lack of usefulness Originally by: LoveKebab there was a sugestion of changing Hel bonus to Fighter hp once and imo it was a very good idea Agreed. Fighter hp is much more useful.
Marlona Sky D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2009.11.30 17:29:00 - [736] I don't understand. I thought the increase in hit points, Hel getting fighter and bomber hit point bonus, +2 fighter/bomber/drones per level and the ability to dock and the cost being reduced was good. I was really looking forward to "Capital Killers" which I thought was a nice role. With the current TQ version, they are only good for doing plexes it seems. Now with focuses titan doomsday, no way anyone would take one into actual combat. Also, does the remote ECM burst decloak anything in range of the blast radius?
Natasha Nikolaev	Posted - 2009.11.30 22:13:00 - [737] Edited by: Natasha Nikolaev on 30/11/2009 22:17:13 Originally by: Marlona Sky I don't understand. I thought the increase in hit points, Hel getting fighter and bomber hit point bonus Yep, these were good Quote: +2 fighter/bomber/drones per level I personally saw no need to drop it from +3 but along with the price drop (which I didn't like, either) I could have lived with it. Quote: and the ability to dock and the cost being reduced was good. docking was a terrible idea. While it would make the life of each individual mom/sc owner much less of a hassle, the overall effect on EVE (esp. when combined with the price cut) could have been terrible. However, the main point I personally hated about Nozh's changes was the explosion velocity because while his other changes (imo) were not great, this one single-handedly ruined their "cap killer" potential almost completely. Quote: I was really looking forward to "Capital Killers" which I thought was a nice role. Me too. It is a shame that instead of working harder on it, and working with us to make changes to calm their fears of potential OPness and proliferation, they tried making enormous changes on their own that ultimately failed and the whole idea got scrapped. Increasing build time significantly (50-100%, I don't know) on titans and SCs plus removing the RR range bonuses on SCs would have been a good way to help safeguard against OPness, but leave the killing potential/incentive to actually be in the fight intact.
LoveKebab Caldari Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2009.12.01 22:35:00 - [738] aaaaaaand back to the top xVid4PSP MKV Encoding Tutorial
McFly C0LDFIRE	Posted - 2009.12.02 04:23:00 - [739] Real question is when do we see the next phase of Mom/SC development?
Luna Negra FinFleet IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.12.02 07:44:00 - [740] Time to start working on the Mom's as you promised CCP. Good start would be to open a new sticky to the Features and Ideas Discussion forums so we could get a clue whats going on atm. And also to combine the ideas gives here so we see the overall development process. It was stated CCP wants our input in this so keep your word on it. _________________________ Gravity you win again!
Misanth Reaper Industries	Posted - 2009.12.02 11:08:00 - [741] Edited by: Misanth on 02/12/2009 11:08:52 Just confirming I only logged my mothership to slowboat further inside the POS shield yesterday, CCP. My crew is unsettled, they are worried about my mental health. I'm starting to see cloaked titans, with massive jaws and thousands of long sharp teeth, licking their lips and waiting for me to go 0.1km outside the safety of the shield. Perhaps it would be best to end the misery. I hear that walking into the light (well at least the Amarr deathray), is at least a pretty sight. - I'd tell you why but then I'll have to kill you. And to kill you I'd have to log in. And to log in I'd have to stop browsing these forums. Both you and me knows that'll never happen.
Zarak1 Kenpach1 R.E.C.O.N.	Posted - 2009.12.03 19:10:00 - [742] 40 days of irrelevant training down the tubes. thx ccp
Natasha Nikolaev	Posted - 2009.12.03 20:32:00 - [743] Originally by: Luna Negra Time to start working on the Mom's as you promised CCP. Good start would be to open a new sticky to the Features and Ideas Discussion forums so we could get a clue whats going on atm. And also to combine the ideas gives here so we see the overall development process. It was stated CCP wants our input in this so keep your word on it. ^this
Kel Arkir Biotronics Inc. Majesta Empire	Posted - 2009.12.03 21:38:00 - [744] I guess they are looking for a way to reduce the HP of a MS so that a Titan can actually instahit it, now its quite possible that it will survive and this simply is not fair to the Titan community at all.
Ezekiel Sulastin Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.12.03 21:58:00 - [745] Originally by: Kel Arkir I guess they are looking for a way to reduce the HP of a MS so that a Titan can actually instahit it, now its quite possible that it will survive and this simply is not fair to the Titan community at all. I know, it's so overpowered for it to take 2 titans to kill a supercapital - heck, one DD should be able to instapop multiple MSs to get them out of the game quicker! Come on CCP, give them at least the HP buff so they aren't clay pigeons in space.
Kate Pole	Posted - 2009.12.04 11:50:00 - [746] Edited by: Kate Pole on 04/12/2009 11:52:59 15 or 20 drones, IDC FB should have the ability to ATLEAST match the DPS of a seiged dread. + HP!!!! + Jump Range No docking This, IMO, is the bare minimum of what needs to be done, tbh I would like to see a bonus to Remote Capital Armor/Shield repping to support the Titans that you obviously want to stay on the field during a fight. I do not think his is asking to much. Please do not allow them to dock and please do not make them cheap. The way I look at it is like this. The Titan is the upgrade from a dread and a SC should be the upgrade from the carrier. I hope CCP knows that while in regards to the whole population of EVE goes, the SC pilots are not a huge % but we are probably among the most dedicated and multi account holding players, I don't want this to sound like a threat but why continue to pay for an account that is never really used? CCP GET-IR-DONE!
Trev Kachanov STK Scientific The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.12.04 12:17:00 - [747] With the fact most major 0.0 alliances can field multiple titans on the field at once, you won't see a single mothership pilot with half a brain in a capital fleet engagement. The motherships need an HP buff at least, otherwise these ships will not see the outside of a pos shield anytime soon. Don't trip
Daenosa	Posted - 2009.12.04 13:23:00 - [748] can people stop using the cost of a ship as a reason to why it needs balancing. seriously 3 titans can kill a mothership, of course it should be able to. O no 3 cruisers can kill a battleship, buff the battleship so it wont happen. Yes everyone and their monkey has a titan but with the recent changes i cant see that lasting long...
Nasty Thug	Posted - 2009.12.04 14:21:00 - [749] If you were involved in the testing of the MS, or own a MS, or were affected by these decisions, please support my petition to CSM/CCP for GM's to be given the powers to allow MS pilots a one time petition option to dock their MS in station for the duration of this nerf/"rebalance". I feel its grossly unfair we have been left in a situation were we continue to pay for an account for a ship rendered useless or need to pay/use time to maintain a POS simply to stop it being instajibbed. If CCP want us MS pilots to co-operate on future testing it is about time they did something for us in return! Calling all Mothership pilots affected by this nerf. I have created a petition thread to request that all mothership owners + pilots who wish to do so, should have their motherships docked in a station by a GM for the duration of this nerf so they can free their pilots from them and no longer be required to support the timesink/cost of running a pos to keep them safe. Mothership Petition it is GROSSLY unfair of CCP to go ahead with the titan changes that allow titans to roam lowsec/nullsec at will and insta-pop any MS unfortunate enough to be caught by them, it is simply intolerable that we be forced to hide a 25bn inc fittings ship in a POS or at a deep-safe to avoid being insta-shot by a ship we have no chance or ability to kill or defend against. CCP did not consider the side effects of buffing titans EHP whilst doing nothing for motherships, therefore effectively nerfing AGAIN an already nerfed class to make it combat ineffective in any role. This request is to allow all Mothership pilots who wish to do so, have a GM dock their motherships in a station so they can leave them safely mothballed until CCP sort out this mess, this is a FAIR and DECENT action CCP can take to undo the mess they have left all MS owners in, it is GROSSLY unfair that we are being forced to pay a monthly subscription and tie up a pilot to keep a ship that the dev team have made both obsolete and completely vunerable to drive-bys. This is NOT a request that MS should be dockable/undockable by design, only that the pilots who wish to do so can request a one time docking of their MS by a GM and leave them safely stored until they are properly balanced again. I love my nyx, i worked my entire eve career to get it and i do not want to be forced to sell it, but also think it grossly unfair i have to keep a pilot offline for a ship I cannot use for any fleet benefit in any situation, therefore I would like to free my pilot to be able to fly a dread or another ship for the duration of this nerf. please, apart from the ranting at CCP, all pilots who were affected by this please support the petition to get the CSM to urgently resolve this matter - its really just awful of CCP to expect us all to pay a monthly subscription charge and lose our main supercap pilot due to their lack of planning. posting on an alt, due to being terrified of tracked down and jibbed by a titan griefer :(
LoveKebab Caldari Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2009.12.04 15:12:00 - [750] Edited by: LoveKebab on 04/12/2009 15:17:26 Originally by: Daenosa can people stop using the cost of a ship as a reason to why it needs balancing. seriously 3 titans can kill a mothership, of course it should be able to. O no 3 cruisers can kill a battleship, buff the battleship so it wont happen. nice comparing ... 3 cruisers can kill a bs so it's perfectly normal for 3 titans to kill MS ... omg how stupid u are :( well i was thinking about something like this since i think its quite balanced (not giving moms superBBQ dps but it surely gives them a nice boost): - HP boost (equal to titans so 300% for main buffor and 150% for secoundary and hull hp) - add fighter bombers and since they are using a COMPACT citadels they would have to be properly adjusted (explo sig and a bit more explo velocity maybe? - that i didnt think about yet) - keep 3 additional drones per carrier level and add +1 or +2 bombers per level (10 bombers is doing way more dmg than 20 fighters - almost 2x more) atm motherships are obviously broken compared to titans since they die to 2-3 doomsdays and i would love to see them as titan killers, atm its gonna be nearly impossible to predict where and when titan gonna jump cuz they can pick their own targets (most likely caps) before dominion when ppl were making fleet large enough they also had means of tackling titan if it actually comes to the grid and even then it was hard to tackle one but now ppl dont rly know when and where titan gonna jump in since they only jumping to kill a single ship and warp out so IF u r lucky enough to tackle a titan at least have some chance to kill it for gods sake - make motherships capable of killing titans i would go as far as giving them even +2 fighter bombers per level so u dont need like 20 moms to kill a titan but 10 would do the job fairly quickly in like 8-10 minutes maybe (it's still quite long time) xVid4PSP MKV Encoding Tutorial

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