Originally by: WarDecEvading NPCCorpAlt

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"Omni tanking" generally means hardening against all damage types.

Tanking armor and shield simultaneously is normally called "dual tanking" and is hardly ever done on non-terrible fits because of how hardeners and other tanking modules complement each other.

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Originally by: Beverly Sparks

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One of the false equality lies in that CCP think that falloff and optimal balance out at 1:1. Meaning Optimal+falloff should equal Optimal+falloff roughly. This is not true in the slightest. For every km of Optimal another ship gets over a projectile, the projectile should get 2 km of falloff, to at least achieve 86% damage at similar ranges.

So will the new tracking computers have 7.5% or 15% falloff bonus unscripted. My money is on 7.5% to make it "equal", which will really give you a whopping 3.75% extra operating range @ 86% damage. I would argue that the equal value to optimal for falloff in a tracking computer would be 15% unscripted, giving a 7.5% increase in operating (86% damage) range.

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Originally by: Etho Demerzel

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The design goal itself directly contradicts the idea of alpha davantage. So either the design goal was badly thought and need to be abandoned OR alpha-strike as an advantage must be abandoned and something else must be given to artillery (as the same dps potential of lasers for example at the same ranges).

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Originally by: Elaron

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Edited by: Elaron on 28/09/2009 20:34:05

Originally by: Etho Demerzel

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The design goal itself directly contradicts the idea of alpha davantage. So either the design goal was badly thought and need to be abandoned OR alpha-strike as an advantage must be abandoned and something else must be given to artillery (as the same dps potential of lasers for example at the same ranges).

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I've expressed elsewhere my opinion that boosting alpha strike for artillery without addressing the other shortcomings of the weapon system feels like a placebo; something to make Minmatar pilots think that there's been an improvement in usability without actually giving anything substantial to it. In hindsight, Nozh's statements support that hypothesis as the alpha change seems to be blinding people with the promise of big alpha strike numbers.

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Originally by: Seishi Maru

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And there has been an improvement. Now a tempest is the best large scale gate camper in game. You put 3 SB with locking speed and 5 tempest can insta pop some BC.

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Originally by: CCP Mitnal

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I don't sleep.
I am always here.
Watching.
Waiting.

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Originally by: Hirana Yoshida

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Not sure why people are screaming for more without even having tried these new numbers.

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Originally by: Seishi Maru

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And there has been an improvement. Now a tempest is the best large scale gate camper in game. You put 3 SB with locking speed and 5 tempest can insta pop some BC.

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Because the "boost" is little more than a placebo. Yeah, the 1 extra damage on the ammo is really just . So much for their claim of having ammo parity with the other races so they can balance based on the other factors.

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Originally by: RedSplat

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Originally by: Seishi Maru

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And there has been an improvement. Now a tempest is the best large scale gate camper in game. You put 3 SB with locking speed and 5 tempest can insta pop some BC.

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Or you can just fly any 5 other BS and accomplish the same thing without having to use a sucky weapons system and ship- and frankly, so what if you can kill a BC with 5 other ships.

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Originally by: Seishi Maru

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Originally by: RedSplat

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Originally by: Seishi Maru

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And there has been an improvement. Now a tempest is the best large scale gate camper in game. You put 3 SB with locking speed and 5 tempest can insta pop some BC.

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Or you can just fly any 5 other BS and accomplish the same thing without having to use a sucky weapons system and ship- and frankly, so what if you can kill a BC with 5 other ships.

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in 1 SHOT with zero change of escaping.....

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Originally by: Elaron

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Edited by: Elaron on 28/09/2009 21:14:38

Originally by: Seishi Maru

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And there has been an improvement. Now a tempest is the best large scale gate camper in game. You put 3 SB with locking speed and 5 tempest can insta pop some BC.

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And then the pilots all scream with rage when the typical 17 second RoF means you can't get another shot off before the rest of the target gang warps off.

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Originally by: Lumy

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Because the "boost" is little more than a placebo. Yeah, the 1 extra damage on the ammo is really just . So much for their claim of having ammo parity with the other races so they can balance based on the other factors.

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Now you're making an ass of yourself, Liang. +1 damage will scale to larger ammo, meaning +2 to M, +4 to L and +8 to XL ammo. Which, coincidentally, will make it have exactly same total damage output as hybrid charges and lenses of the same tier (optimal range modifier).

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At end people that are smart enough know that alpha strike CAN be useful on a lot of situations.

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YOu can even fight around a gate warping in, selecting warp out while locking, fire volley.. warp out.. land and lock again in time to new salvo... and warp out.. avoiding tacklers and counter attacks without wasting any DPS during the warps.

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But well.. you need PLAYER skill to do that.... and coordination.. maybe we will see only PL doing that then....

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to ETHO.. not true. Try that in a between regions gate. You have a LARGE chance of not being into disruptor range when the target uncloak, but it will be inside arti range.

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Originally by: Lumy

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Because the "boost" is little more than a placebo. Yeah, the 1 extra damage on the ammo is really just . So much for their claim of having ammo parity with the other races so they can balance based on the other factors.

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Now you're making an ass of yourself, Liang. +1 damage will scale to larger ammo, meaning +2 to M, +4 to L and +8 to XL ammo. Which, coincidentally, will make it have exactly same total damage output as hybrid charges and lenses of the same tier (optimal range modifier).

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Originally by: Naomi Knight

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Liang is just ****** as always nothing new here. Why most matars whiners want their ships to be the best in each ship classes?
They get alpha increase, clip size increase, better close range ammo and they still cring for more , if i were ccp i would tell all of them to **** it and give nothing.

You asked to change matar sniper to be an alpha monster and it will be that with 5-9k alpha dmg, tempest won't have the dps of the apoc or range of the rokh ,so what? it has other advantages now.

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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But they don't seem to be fixing the ammo.

-Liang

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Originally by: Lumy

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Because the "boost" is little more than a placebo. Yeah, the 1 extra damage on the ammo is really just . So much for their claim of having ammo parity with the other races so they can balance based on the other factors.

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Now you're making an ass of yourself, Liang. +1 damage will scale to larger ammo, meaning +2 to M, +4 to L and +8 to XL ammo. Which, coincidentally, will make it have exactly same total damage output as hybrid charges and lenses of the same tier (optimal range modifier).

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If you notice, they broke everything else down by weapon size. They did not do this for ammo damage. Connect the dots.

Originally by: Naomi Knight

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Liang is just ****** as always nothing new here. Why most matars whiners want their ships to be the best in each ship classes?
They get alpha increase, clip size increase, better close range ammo and they still cring for more , if i were ccp i would tell all of them to **** it and give nothing.

You asked to change matar sniper to be an alpha monster and it will be that with 5-9k alpha dmg, tempest won't have the dps of the apoc or range of the rokh ,so what? it has other advantages now.

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No, we don't want to be best in class at everything, but it damn sure would be nice to have a reasonable chance most of the time - as opposed to now where Matari pilots are essentially getting the shaft. And honestly, if they'd gone through with the *original* plan of fixing ammo and then boosting alpha I'd be a lot happier.

But they don't seem to be fixing the ammo.

-Liang

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Originally by: Naomi Knight

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Yes you want. What would be reasonable chance? Matar ships are the most prefered after the amarr ones , zealot> muninn> rest , apoc> tempest > rest , even at dread lvl revelation=naglfar>>rest. I realy cant see where matar ships are lacking,do you ?

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Yes they should change the highes dmg ammo to explo one and make emp somewhere in the middle. But I think you misunderstood Nozh , im sure he meant those dmg changes are for the small ammo types ,and medium will receive 2x large 4x the changes making emp dmg sum same as animatter or multifreq.

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After the changes the large arties will be able to fire twice as long as the hybrid ones before have to reload, if that is not a boost then what?

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Originally by: Naomi Knight

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Yes you want. What would be reasonable chance? Matar ships are the most prefered after the amarr ones , zealot> muninn> rest , apoc> tempest > rest , even at dread lvl revelation=naglfar>>rest. I realy cant see where matar ships are lacking,do you ?

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Yes they should change the highes dmg ammo to explo one and make emp somewhere in the middle. But I think you misunderstood Nozh , im sure he meant those dmg changes are for the small ammo types ,and medium will receive 2x large 4x the changes making emp dmg sum same as animatter or multifreq.

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After the changes the large arties will be able to fire twice as long as the hybrid ones before have to reload, if that is not a boost then what?

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Originally by: Etho Demerzel

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You are insane. I advise you to check the economy quarterly to see in which place minnie battleships sells are...

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Originally by: AstroPhobic

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Liang: I too believe it was meant as "small ammo only" as the graphs etc in the OP were about small ammo and will scale.

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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And honestly, if they'd gone through with the *original* plan of fixing ammo and then boosting alpha I'd be a lot happier.

But they don't seem to be fixing the ammo.

-Liang

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Originally by: Seriously Bored

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You seem to be commenting on something I haven't seen. Do they have notes up on changes to ammunition yet? The most information I've seen on this subject is the OP of this thread. I didn't expect anything else to come until Wednesday.

ED: If there isn't any new info, I really think we all need to chill the **** out and wait for more info.

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Originally by: CCP Nozh

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After more testing and feedback we're happy with our first iteration to go out on Singularity.

Ammo Damage Base:

• EMP - EM +1


• Phased Plasma - Thermal +1


• Carbonized Lead - Explosive -1


• Nuclear - Explosive -1

Ammo Volume:

• Small: 0.0025


• Medium: 0.0125


• Large: 0.025


• XL: 0.12

Ammo mid-range compensation:

• Tracking Bonus Modifier, 1-1.2

Damage / Duration Increase û Artillery:

• Small: 0%


• Medium: 25%


• Large: 75%

Tracking Enhancer / Tracking Computer:

• Falloff Bonus equal to Optimal Range Bonus


• Tracking Computer scripts Falloff Bonus Equal to Optimal Range Bonus

About the optimal range and tracking increases people are asking about. With a greatly increased alpha tracking becomes even more important, since a single shot counts more. With an increased optimal, tracking becomes less of a problem. We don't want too many "one volleys" on our hands, with feedback and testing gathered from Singularity we'll revisit this for a closer look. If weÆre not happy with the tracking bonus on the ammunition we might take a look at some other solutions, someone here suggested an ôalphaö bonus, which could be interesting.

These are as said before the first iteration of these changes, with playtesting and feedback from Singularity, we'll iterate further and hopefully find projectiles turrets right

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Originally by: Naomi Knight

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Hmm economy quarterly is hugely in favour for high sec, which doesnt tell anything about 0.0 where corps/alliances build the battleships for themselves,and possibly wont show up on the market at all. If you realy want to make any assumptions on those stats then ccp should split tha datas first between high-low sec and 0.0, that would give a much precise view on what ppl actually prefer for pvp, which should be the main thing ships should be balanced imho.

Oh and from experience the naglfar is the best or second best dread atm.

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Originally by: RedSplat

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Originally by: Yalezorn

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Been rollin this around in my head the last few days, seeing a lot of posts talking about how bad projectile weapons are right now. One of the issues I've seen is the small clip size they have, resulting in having to reload often, and an overall drop in DPS.

So, what if projectile ammo was all belt fed? What I mean is basically a combination of hybrid turret and laser mechanics, where basically your clip size is only limited by your cargo hold. You select the type of ammo for your guns to use from your hold, and the guns will fire continuously as long as you have ammo in your cargo bay. This would eliminate reloading for projectiles, allowing steady damage during a fight.

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That is a quality idea, devs getting this?

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