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Schmell	Posted - 2009.09.30 08:56:00 - [541] Originally by: Naomi Knight you should wonder about how projectile cap use compare to lasers/hybrids also how projectiles can choose dmg type to some extend , also why matar ships are the fastes / fastest locking , also why matar ships are so easy to fit especially with autocannons Those are the things you should wonder about and not that arties have less optimal than rails. Fastest locking - not about minmatar. They have weakest electronics all the way Fastest - not about minmatar bs...well maybe, but 10 m/s does not make any sense Tracking - in terms of Large guns - myth, does not help Damage types - not very helpful rly
Shade IX	Posted - 2009.09.30 08:58:00 - [542] Originally by: Naomi Knight you should wonder about how projectile cap use compare to lasers/hybrids also how projectiles can choose dmg type to some extend , also why matar ships are the fastes / fastest locking , also why matar ships are so easy to fit especially with autocannons Those are the things you should wonder about and not that arties have less optimal than rails. This thread is not about what ship is the best, its about fixing a huge problem. at the momment a sniper Mael with 1400mm projectiles does 380 DPS with LVL 5 skills anf 3 gyros the same ship with Tachs do 400 DPS with 3 Heat sinks and Lvl 5 skills PROJECTILES ARE BROKEN So if you dont have anything constructive to contribute then go whine in another forum.
Schmell	Posted - 2009.09.30 09:02:00 - [543] Edited by: Schmell on 30/09/2009 09:02:30 Originally by: Shade IX Originally by: Naomi Knight you should wonder about how projectile cap use compare to lasers/hybrids also how projectiles can choose dmg type to some extend , also why matar ships are the fastes / fastest locking , also why matar ships are so easy to fit especially with autocannons Those are the things you should wonder about and not that arties have less optimal than rails. This thread is not about what ship is the best, its about fixing a huge problem. at the momment a sniper Mael with 1400mm projectiles does 380 DPS with LVL 5 skills anf 3 gyros the same ship with Tachs do 400 DPS with 3 Heat sinks and Lvl 5 skills PROJECTILES ARE BROKEN So if you dont have anything constructive to contribute then go whine in another forum. Well, tbh, to fit 8 tachs on apoc, you must plug TWO grid mods. 7 tach apoc with auroras does same dps as tempest with 6 1400 Its not dps problem for me - all fleet bss have equal amount of dps. Its role problem. Now with fixed alpha, matari bs`s can have some. Close range cannons still broken tho
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.09.30 09:03:00 - [544] Originally by: Naomi Knight Those are the things you should wonder about and not that arties have less optimal than rails. Quite. If arties are given equivalent dps, tracking and range as compared to rails, then they also need to be given the cap use of rails. Same goes for lasers. Artillery cannot be made as good as rails or beams in the dps+range+tracking department, without giving it serious cap use (or some other drawback). It's that simple.
Ecky X	Posted - 2009.09.30 09:03:00 - [545] Originally by: Naomi Knight you should wonder about how projectile cap use compare to lasers/hybrids also how projectiles can choose dmg type to some extend , also why matar ships are the fastes / fastest locking , also why matar ships are so easy to fit especially with autocannons Those are the things you should wonder about and not that arties have less optimal than rails. It all makes sense now! But also remember that Minmatar have the worst slot layouts for tanking, the least HP, lowest sensor strength, lowest lock range, and worst capacitor. They average 2nd-to-last in dronebays and have arguably the weakest racial ewar. It's give and take. Artillery dont necessarily need optimal, but they DO need something other races dont have, that plays to Minmatar strengths.
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.09.30 09:09:00 - [546] Originally by: Ecky X It's give and take. Artillery dont necessarily need optimal, but they DO need something other races dont have, that plays to Minmatar strengths. They already have that. Guns that use zero cap. That's a nice bonus, as you'll find out if you ever try to use beam lasers or railguns and see how fast your cap drops from just firing your guns (let alone moving in addition, or running some extra modules). Oh, and you can't shut down projectile dps with neuts. More a factor for ACs of course, due to range issues.
Cornette Gallente Black Screen of Death Huzzah Federation	Posted - 2009.09.30 09:31:00 - [547] Originally by: Naomi Knight Edited by: Naomi Knight on 30/09/2009 08:47:49 I am a amarr troll Miss leading text from someone who desperately want to derail this balancing thread, like you did in the past, Lyria Skydancer. Now, I will wait for someone who actually back up his claims with facts and are not a biased amarr troll. In the meantime my question remain: How do 1400mm tracking compare to tachs, rails..? And to Alex Cap less guns are not that of a big advantage because minmatar need to use its cap for tank while amarr have passive tanks and can use all their cap for their weapons. Fake edit: FFS fix the forum, I had to log in 3 times now.
Schmell	Posted - 2009.09.30 09:35:00 - [548] Originally by: Cornette Originally by: Naomi Knight Edited by: Naomi Knight on 30/09/2009 08:47:49 I am a amarr troll How do 1400mm tracking compare to tachs, rails..? Eh? Sucks as always. They didnt change it, so you can check it easily even on tranq
Theron Gyrow Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.09.30 09:39:00 - [549] Edited by: Theron Gyrow on 30/09/2009 09:39:24 Originally by: Cornette In the meantime my question remain: How do 1400mm tracking compare to tachs, rails..? Base values: 1400mm arty: 0.009 425mm rail: 0.00962 (+6.8%) Mega beam: 0.01531 (+70.1%) Tachyon beam: 0.01392 (+54.7%) So, they are about equal with rails. Both of them are utter crap compared to lasers. -- Gradient forum
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2009.09.30 09:50:00 - [550] Schmell: Yep matar should be weak in electronics , but still they have the fastest locking ships, oh and their targeting range only counts if they fitting arties as with ac-s they have plenty. ac-s have the nearly same tracking as blaster ,while being able to shoot from farther with less accuarcy -arties have bad tracking yep ,that could be increased a very little -dmg types it is usefull to some extend especially when you shoot something for a long time and can benefit from ammo change like solo/small fleet pos shooting,ratting anyway it is much better than stuck with 2 types of dmg which can be used out by enemy if they have a chance to refit -no not all fleet bs have equal amount of dps apoc >mega/mael> rokh/mail(in falloff) Shade IX: not about ships??? seriously?? can you shoot your arti without the ship, no so the ships matter as much as the weapons they use pls fit those tachyons on your mael ,and come back cring after a fleet op where you run out of cap within the first minute,and still apoc has to use 2 rcu-s to be able to fit those 8 tachys up as Schmell pointed it out close range cannons are broken how?? they can dish out nearly as much dmg as the hybrids Ecky X: Alex Harumichi wrote that arties already have those bonuses - high alpha and no cap use those are what matar snipe ships are all/and should be about -if you want dps go amarr if you want optimal go caldari - if you want between go gallente Something I should add is that amarr snipers are way op atm imho. Their huge base dps+optimal due to bonuses+superior tracking make them the best fleet ships in most situations especially with no reload time. I think this is not the reason to boost matar sniper but to nerf amarrs. Sniper are already too good against smaller classes ships ,bs can easily eliminate cruisers , cruisers can do the same with destroyers/frigs from medium to long range.

Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.09.30 09:51:00 - [551] Originally by: Cornette Cap less guns are not that of a big advantage because minmatar need to use its cap for tank while amarr have passive tanks and can use all their cap for their weapons. Umm what? Every single Minmatar bs I've seen (for pvp) has been passively tanked. And if you claim that capless guns aren't a big deal: so you'd be ok if artillery was made to use as much cap as rails do? If the dps+tracking+range was made equivalent? I suspect you would not be happy with the result.
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.09.30 09:58:00 - [552] Originally by: Naomi Knight Something I should add is that amarr snipers are way op atm imho. Totally agree. Beams on Apoc just wipe the floor with everyone else. I suspect the Apoc range bonus could use some toning down.
WarDecEvading NPCCorpAlt	Posted - 2009.09.30 09:59:00 - [553] Edited by: WarDecEvading NPCCorpAlt on 30/09/2009 10:02:45 Edited by: WarDecEvading NPCCorpAlt on 30/09/2009 10:00:58 Originally by: Schmell Fastest locking - not about minmatar. They have weakest electronics all the way This is incorrect, Minmatar tend to have the highest scan resolution in their ship classes, but the lowest targeting range. Caldari is the opposite. Originally by: Schmell Well, tbh, to fit 8 tachs on apoc, you must plug TWO grid mods. 7 tach apoc with auroras does same dps as tempest with 6 1400 It does slightly more DPS unless you're comparing with the hull skill at 5, and it also has a 163km optimal instead of 108km. Originally by: Alex Harumichi Quite. If arties are given equivalent dps, tracking and range as compared to rails, then they also need to be given the cap use of rails. Same goes for lasers. The funny thing is that the Apocalypse is better with cap usage than any of the railgun platforms due to its oversized capacitor and massive cap usage reduction bonus. Quote: Artillery cannot be made as good as rails or beams in the dps+range+tracking department, without giving it serious cap use (or some other drawback). It's that simple. The Zealot and Apocalypse both have bonuses that trivialize cap use. Except for POS bashes, which are hopefully going away, capacitor is kind of a triviality anyway. The Megathron drains a lot of cap, for example, but it's rare to cap out when there's actual fighting going on due to the frequent warp-outs which allow time for capacitor to recharge. The irony is that ammo size penalties were probably the best way to normalize its performance over long fights, it's simply annoying because there's no "continue firing after reload" feature. Quote: Artillery dont necessarily need optimal, but they DO need something other races dont have, that plays to Minmatar strengths. Normally, this strength is played to via mobility. Mediocre range compensated for by the ability to close it quickly. Problem of course being that we're talking about battleships here, they have no mobility to speak of, so if you want them to be useful, they need to shoot far. Originally by: Alex Harumichi Totally agree. Beams on Apoc just wipe the floor with everyone else. I suspect the Apoc range bonus could use some toning down. What could use some toning down is the tracking of lasers, the cap usage of railguns, and the crappy range of artillery.
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2009.09.30 10:06:00 - [554] Originally by: WarDecEvading NPCCorpAlt Originally by: Alex Harumichi Quite. If arties are given equivalent dps, tracking and range as compared to rails, then they also need to be given the cap use of rails. Same goes for lasers. The funny thing is that the Apocalypse is better with cap usage than any of the railgun platforms due to its oversized capacitor and massive cap usage reduction bonus. Quote: Artillery cannot be made as good as rails or beams in the dps+range+tracking department, without giving it serious cap use (or some other drawback). It's that simple. The Zealot and Apocalypse both have bonuses that trivialize cap use. Except for POS bashes, which are hopefully going away, capacitor is kind of a triviality anyway. The Megathron drains a lot of cap, for example, but it's rare to cap out when there's actual fighting going on due to the frequent warp-outs which allow time for capacitor to recharge. The irony is that ammo size penalties were probably the best way to normalize its performance over long fights, it's simply annoying because there's no "continue firing after reload" feature. Quote: Artillery dont necessarily need optimal, but they DO need something other races dont have, that plays to Minmatar strengths. Normally, this strength is played to via mobility. Mediocre range compensated for by the ability to close it quickly. Problem of course being that we're talking about battleships here, they have no mobility to speak of, so if you want them to be useful, they need to shoot far. Yep have to agree with this , at cruiser lvl guns cap use not realy for snipers as they usually never run out of it. But at bs lvl my sniper apoc is much more cap stable than my rokh or most megathrons I've seen in fleets. This shouldnt be this way, amarr should have the penalty of high cap use guns ,but it currently not there.
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.09.30 10:07:00 - [555] Originally by: WarDecEvading NPCCorpAlt The Zealot and Apocalypse both have bonuses that trivialize cap use. Except for POS bashes, which are hopefully going away, capacitor is kind of a triviality anyway. The Megathron drains a lot of cap, for example, but it's rare to cap out when there's actual fighting going on due to the frequent warp-outs which allow time for capacitor to recharge. a) Yes, they have bonuses that let them use their guns without immediately capping out. Bonuses where other races have other useful stuff. In effect, there ships are sacrificing a bonus just to be able to use their guns properly. b) I would quite say "trivialize". Cap is still an issue, and it's still quite possible to cap out, especially if you warp, pulse mwd, run other modules, get neuted, etc etc. The capless functionality of projectiles isn't their biggest bonus. But it's still a bonus, and (along with the new alpha stuff) imho compensates from the (very very slight) reduction in raw power as compared to rails, for instance. In fact, I'd claim that artillery after this change is almost always better than rails, but that's another subject... In any case, as I've said before: another option would be to boost artillery to be totally equivalent to rails, but to also give it equivalent cap use (if that cap use really is "no big deal" as you claim). Do you really want that? Having used hybrids and lasers quite a bit, I'd claim that cap use is far, far from "no big deal". But that's just my opinion.
Tiger's Spirit	Posted - 2009.09.30 10:10:00 - [556] Edited by: Tiger''s Spirit on 30/09/2009 10:12:51 The arty changes it's a joke. damage rate it's up, but time changes ridiculous. 41.34 sec LOL. Minimal DPS change, but horrible shoting time. A beam user shot 4 when a arty user shot 1. 1 shot can't kill a cruiser , because the alpha not enough high and and no chance for second shot because almost 20 sec need for another shot with 3 gyrostab, but a BS can warp out 9 sec. And you guys happy for this changes ? LOL Clipsize decreasing: For why ? Not need reloading anymore because you can using them double time (double shoting time) /sarcasm off. Another thing, not everybody playing with 0.0 bllsht sniper tactics. Over than 80% of Eve peoples not fly in 0.0 and can't use long range arty, and the large ACs it's too weak and the ammo changes won't solve their problems. ~+30 dps for Tempest. LOL
Cornette Gallente Black Screen of Death Huzzah Federation	Posted - 2009.09.30 10:26:00 - [557] Originally by: Theron Gyrow Edited by: Theron Gyrow on 30/09/2009 09:39:24 Originally by: Cornette In the meantime my question remain: How do 1400mm tracking compare to tachs, rails..? Base values: 1400mm arty: 0.009 425mm rail: 0.00962 (+6.8%) Mega beam: 0.01531 (+70.1%) Tachyon beam: 0.01392 (+54.7%) So, they are about equal with rails. Both of them are utter crap compared to lasers. So both need a tracking boost. Or lasers need a nerf. I hope CCP Nozh see this and make needed adjustments. Originally by: Alex Harumichi Originally by: Cornette Cap less guns are not that of a big advantage because minmatar need to use its cap for tank while amarr have passive tanks and can use all their cap for their weapons. Umm what? Every single Minmatar bs I've seen (for pvp) has been passively tanked. And if you claim that capless guns aren't a big deal: so you'd be ok if artillery was made to use as much cap as rails do? If the dps+tracking+range was made equivalent? I suspect you would not be happy with the result. Deal, as long as I get same base resistance and hitpoints as amarr currently have and same ammount of cap. And seven lowslots too ofc. Then next time my Maelstrom won't die in 15 seconds like my last when a curse neuted the cap and deactivated the tank and his gang killed me. And no one injector can't keep it up against a proper setup curse.
Camios Minmatar Insurgent New Eden Tribe Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2009.09.30 10:26:00 - [558] In my opinion, if you want to use the tempest as a fleet sniper, the solution could be -remove the ROf 5% bonus and replace it with a 10% optimal range. - reduce the base Rof of 1400mm by 20-25%, to compensate for the DPS. Or you can just stop trying to use the tempest for a role for which it is not designed, that is long range sniper. The fact is Minmatar does not have long range sniper at all, and that means Minnie ships must use different tactics from other races.
Schmell	Posted - 2009.09.30 10:30:00 - [559] Edited by: Schmell on 30/09/2009 10:30:19 screenshot According to this, optimal range sript gives optimal bonus AND fallof bounus at the same time. Theoretically - really it did not worked for me. Bug?
WarDecEvading NPCCorpAlt	Posted - 2009.09.30 11:11:00 - [560] Edited by: WarDecEvading NPCCorpAlt on 30/09/2009 11:11:53 Originally by: Alex Harumichi Having used hybrids and lasers quite a bit, I'd claim that cap use is far, far from "no big deal". But that's just my opinion. Cap use on the Apocalypse is pretty much a joke, and it's certainly not enough of an issue to warrant a 51% difference in optimal. No, they don't have to be equivalent, but something like 10-15km less optimal and 20-30km more falloff would probably be an acceptable trade. That's not really the case though, the difference in optimal is staggering. Quote: that means Minnie ships must use different tactics from other races. Like what?

Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.09.30 11:26:00 - [561] Originally by: WarDecEvading NPCCorpAlt Edited by: WarDecEvading NPCCorpAlt on 30/09/2009 11:11:53 Originally by: Alex Harumichi Having used hybrids and lasers quite a bit, I'd claim that cap use is far, far from "no big deal". But that's just my opinion. Cap use on the Apocalypse is pretty much a joke, and it's certainly not enough of an issue to warrant a 51% difference in optimal. As I noted in my post, Apoc is sort of a special case. It has stupidly good cap, and the range bonus is also a bit on the ridiculous side. On other ships, gun cap use tends to be a far more serious matter. My Geddon has a cap booster, just so I can use guns and mwd. Same goes for Megas etc. For an extreme case, look at the Abaddon. It's like the thing has a self-directed heavy neut installed, just from running guns.
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.09.30 11:31:00 - [562] Originally by: WarDecEvading NPCCorpAlt No, they don't have to be equivalent, but something like 10-15km less optimal and 20-30km more falloff would probably be an acceptable trade. That's not really the case though, the difference in optimal is staggering. Yes, when you compare to Apoc + beams. When you compare to rails, otoh, things look pretty balanced -- if anything, artillery seem generally a bit better. This, to me, seems to hint that it's beam lasers (and maybe the Apoc) that need a nerf, not artillery + rails needing a boost.
Typhado3 Minmatar Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium Aeternus.	Posted - 2009.09.30 12:04:00 - [563] Originally by: Naomi Knight ...also why matar ships are the fastes / fastest locking... So if I was to look at say the maelstrom it would be a very fast bs? fastest of it's tier easily right? OR at least the cepters if I was to get the fastest minmatar cepter and fit it with a mwd and speed mods and stick a claymore in gang to speed it up nothing could catch up to it if similarly fit right? And the hictor the king of tackle that's always used for it's fast locking infini point in low sec gate camps, we'd have a clear advantage over the other races lock time with that ship right? these should hint that something wrong more than just the turrets. Also these are not insignificant exceptions, the hictor and intercepter are where we should be shining, shining like the apoc in fleet fights. instead it's a challenge for us to even hold our lead in the areas we specialize in. ------------------------------ Just a crazy inventor ccp fix mining agent missions % pls
WarDecEvading NPCCorpAlt	Posted - 2009.09.30 12:12:00 - [564] Originally by: Alex Harumichi As I noted in my post, Apoc is sort of a special case. It has stupidly good cap, and the range bonus is also a bit on the ridiculous side. On other ships, gun cap use tends to be a far more serious matter. My Geddon has a cap booster, just so I can use guns and mwd. Same goes for Megas etc. For an extreme case, look at the Abaddon. It's like the thing has a self-directed heavy neut installed, just from running guns. Well, first off, I think the Apocalypse is a good baseline for how long-range battleships SHOULD perform, I'd rather see a reduction in railgun cap usage than make it harder to keep cap up for lasers. Second, while I'd consider the Megathron and Rokh to be worse overall, they're in a performance tier that's not far off of the Apocalypse. I bring up the Apocalypse more due to its ubiquity, but the others illustrate the issue as well. The Megathron gets a 168km optimal with 2 range mods and doesn't lose a low slot to a grid mod. The Rokh is a bit harder to illustrate the issue with due to the massive variance in possible fittings for it, but the jist is that it doesn't really have issues with range or tank because it's heavily bonused for both.
Ath Amon	Posted - 2009.09.30 12:17:00 - [565] Originally by: Schmell Edited by: Schmell on 30/09/2009 09:02:30 Originally by: Shade IX Originally by: Naomi Knight you should wonder about how projectile cap use compare to lasers/hybrids also how projectiles can choose dmg type to some extend , also why matar ships are the fastes / fastest locking , also why matar ships are so easy to fit especially with autocannons Those are the things you should wonder about and not that arties have less optimal than rails. This thread is not about what ship is the best, its about fixing a huge problem. at the momment a sniper Mael with 1400mm projectiles does 380 DPS with LVL 5 skills anf 3 gyros the same ship with Tachs do 400 DPS with 3 Heat sinks and Lvl 5 skills PROJECTILES ARE BROKEN So if you dont have anything constructive to contribute then go whine in another forum. Well, tbh, to fit 8 tachs on apoc, you must plug TWO grid mods. 7 tach apoc with auroras does same dps as tempest with 6 1400 Its not dps problem for me - all fleet bss have equal amount of dps. Its role problem. Now with fixed alpha, matari bs`s can have some. Close range cannons still broken tho problem is not just dps but range too as with 8 tachs you can fit just 2 HS and 1 te and outdps outrange pest/mael with 3 gyros + 3 tc by a good margin... same goes for 7 tachs and 3 HS + 1 te so true that apoc need a pair of fitting mods and an energy mod but you get way better results in dps/range using 3 less turret enhancers mods (and pest will still need a fitting mod) Originally by: Diana Merris Unfortunately, rather than address the slot layout/tanking issues for Minmatar the Devs have simple declared that it makes us "versitile".
Ath Amon	Posted - 2009.09.30 12:36:00 - [566] Originally by: Typhado3 Originally by: Naomi Knight ...also why matar ships are the fastes / fastest locking... So if I was to look at say the maelstrom it would be a very fast bs? fastest of it's tier easily right? OR at least the cepters if I was to get the fastest minmatar cepter and fit it with a mwd and speed mods and stick a claymore in gang to speed it up nothing could catch up to it if similarly fit right? And the hictor the king of tackle that's always used for it's fast locking infini point in low sec gate camps, we'd have a clear advantage over the other races lock time with that ship right? these should hint that something wrong more than just the turrets. Also these are not insignificant exceptions, the hictor and intercepter are where we should be shining, shining like the apoc in fleet fights. instead it's a challenge for us to even hold our lead in the areas we specialize in. i totally agree with that... minnie racial "features" as speed, locking velocity, mass/agility go strangely away in the situations where they will count the most... but they always suffer from their racial flaws... low base hps, weak sensors, low cargo/cap and the so and so slot layout Originally by: Diana Merris Unfortunately, rather than address the slot layout/tanking issues for Minmatar the Devs have simple declared that it makes us "versitile".
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.09.30 13:13:00 - [567] Originally by: Ath Amon the choices on graph seem quite "strange" also the mega seem low on dps, we also dont know how many dmg mods are mounting these ships... now the problem... other than the "big" new tempest line... in truth comparing it to the tach geddon (??) the pest have a dmg advantage of 8s at the start, 4 sec after 16s and another few sec and another 2-3s later on... so the improved alpha will give a total advantage to that pest of... 15s over 60s with no reload... at the 4th volley that geddon have alredy built enought dps (+alpha) that the pest doesnt touch it anymore so now how many battles are end in 8s? is 15s of supposed "dmg superiority" worth the low dps/low range/low tracking? because that is the supposed superiority... add dmg reduction from faloff and tracking and here that arty will look as gimped as usual... all ships are with 3 damage mods and usign long range ammo. The geddon is fit with 7 tachyons somethign you CANNOT do while using a MWD. Its just a extreme compare since the geddon has FAR higher DPS than apoc. I can fit an apoc and remake the graph if peoplewant. The megatron DOES HAVE LOWER dps than tempest before reload is taken into account! That means tempest wil have an advantage UNTIL the clip ends! The only real disadvantages are in range and tracking. But if you manage to engage at 150 km the tempest and maesltrom now are the BEST snipers against large targets. Alpha advantage is somethign REAL and simply math verifiable. You have ship a with alpha 5k and ship b with alpha 2k. Ship A has 300 dps SHip B has 330 dps... The firign start at time ZERO. giving the A ship a 3k damage advantage that must be recovered by the larger ROF of the other ship. Ship B will take 100 SECONDS to move its damage curve completely ahead of ship B. That is the time you have advantage.. 100 seconds not 8-9 seconds....
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.09.30 13:20:00 - [568] Updated chart. Now with new maesltrom, and a 7 tachyon apoc and a 8 tachyon apoc. All ships agaion with 3 damage mods and long range t2 ammo. Notice how only the 8 tachyon apoc is abl to come close to arti boats in damage dealt by the end of the first minute. THe issue is.. 8 tachyosn apocs with 3 damage mods are not really standard fitting on fleets! THe common choise is 7 tachyons. UPDATED DISCREETE CHART
Bomberlocks Minmatar Icarus Prime	Posted - 2009.09.30 13:22:00 - [569] Don't mean to interrupt all the morons arguing about what is better and what isn't. Has anyone tried it out on singularity today?
Elaron Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.09.30 13:28:00 - [570] Originally by: WarDecEvading NPCCorpAlt Quote: that means Minnie ships must use different tactics from other races. Like what? Spinning in a hanger while the pilot flies a ship that can be used in a sniper fleet, of course!



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