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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 7 post(s) |
Gamrikis
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Posted - 2009.10.28 03:23:00 -
[1381]
Why are you arguing with a person who is 99.9% sure he is right with out testing? I have nvr heard of this type of probability from untested data, are you able to see into the future and see tests? What do I get on my calculus midterm?
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Etho Demerzel
Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone
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Posted - 2009.10.28 03:24:00 -
[1382]
Originally by: Seriously Bored ...except that Minmatar are the only ones who would get complete damage selection. I hope it doesn't take explaining that damage selection is only worth a damn if you don't have to give up DPS to do it, which is exactly what we would be getting.
Which has exactly ZERO relevance in the comparison between T2 ammunition and the faction equivalent for eaach race.
Yes, minmatar WILL have damage selection if those changes pass to TQ, but minmatar ALREADY pay for that having the lowest real base damage. ACs damage multipliers suck, and minmatar always are double penalized for fighting in falloff.
Quote:
This was a true statement when EMP still had it's godawful spread of damage types. It isn't true any more.
The new EMP would be far more potent against shields at 11 damage than the first OP EMP would be against shields at 12 damage.
The new Fusion would be far more potent against armor at 11 damage than the OP EMP would be against armor at 12 damage.
The new Phased Plasma at 11 damage would perform exactly the same as EMP does now in game.
And the end result for the "OP EMP" is STILL less damage against shields than lasers at any range.
Phased plasma will still be every bit as suboptimal as the current EMP with the difference that it is not quite as good against t2 ships.
The only really good ammo, is fusion against armor tanks. But that is the minmatar main damage. Maybe it will be a good motive for people stop using omni tanks. As of now 2xEANM+DCII is only used because nobody really cares about explosive damage, given the race that should hit with it has low base damage.
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"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
Secluse
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2009.10.28 03:38:00 -
[1383]
Edited by: Secluse on 28/10/2009 03:46:10 Changes made to stock spreadsheet:
* Updated Minmatar ammo to reflect 1st and 2nd iteration changes (damage, tracking, range) * Updated TC / TE data for 2nd iteration changes, including stacking nerf calc * Guesstimated 5% falloff increase for 220, and 10% for 425's (as per Branko's assumption)
It's a simple graph of the Harb with 1x TC vs. a Cane with 2x TE, excluding drones and missiles. It's purely to see what the impact of the changes are as Branko is outlining them in his example, purely for the turret systems.
The real key is the laser users ability to quick-swap ammo, which allows lasers to remain extremely competitive from 0km all the way through to extreme range, with AC's getting the final laugh at extreme ranges. It's tough to comment on the data because there are too many different scenarios, so make your own conclusions. Interestingly enough, the new fusion with 2x TE's is equivalent to current Barrage, with Barrage getting a 60% boost to push it to the new line.
Now, when you add drones and missiles to the picture, the Harb actually out-damages the Cane from 0km assuming no transversal, with the cane tracking about 30% better (even after swapping to a tracking speed script), with the Cane obviously having the benefit of being able to semi-choose it's damage.
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Etho Demerzel
Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone
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Posted - 2009.10.28 03:45:00 -
[1384]
Secluse, if you can, please add AN X-ray there. It softens the step between MF and Scorch.
Additionally 2 TC Harbinger (or a TC+Locus rig) graphic would be more meaninful than a single TC. =====
"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
Cpt Branko
The Scope
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Posted - 2009.10.28 03:47:00 -
[1385]
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
Quote:
The problem is because, well, Minmatar don't really have "low DPS" when you do actually load that ****ing Hail in your guns and learn to use it. They have **** range and tracking then, sure, but it does absolutely melt T1 armour in its optimal.
Sorry but Math says your are wrong. You are almost always better with Fusion TODAY, before the changes, unless you are firing against oversized targets. And that is just because fusion damage sucks as of now. There is no ****ing reasont o use void or conflag for example...
:facepalm:
No.
Even assuming a overly optimistic 40% velocity being translated to transversal velocity (which is a optimistic assumption for your opponent if you fit scram+web, or disruptor+web+web), Hail DPS (fired from Hurricane, 220 autos) at 2km vs a Hurricane comes out at 648 DPS from turrets only, or 646 DPS vs a Thorax, while Fusion DPS comes out as 539 DPS vs both.
Tracking is no problem when using Hail vs same sized ships unless you're doing something *horribly* wrong. It's weakness is range; at 3km it already loses a fair deal of its potency. At 4km it's crap. At 5km Fusion pulls ahead.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
drake duka
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Posted - 2009.10.28 03:53:00 -
[1386]
I love the changes, and I'm so happy CCP is looking at projectiles. All the changes are great, all I'm saying is that arty still needs some help.. I don't want them to be like lasers but honestly tachs are still better in the tracking, range, dps, instaswitching ammo departments. The difficult fitting is countered by amarr having more grid and lows, does the capless weap argument even apply with sniping?
At least arty has a role now, IMO all it needs is a fairly large tracking boost and since pest is the only viable sniper bs, it needs a lookover as well.
Loving all the AC and ammo changes, imo ambits/te should give a larger bonus as stacking will be nerfed. I'm just nitpicking now, really solid changes and thanks for the attention on the issue.
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Secluse
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2009.10.28 03:56:00 -
[1387]
Originally by: Etho Demerzel Secluse, if you can, please add AN X-ray there. It softens the step between MF and Scorch.
Additionally 2 TC Harbinger (or a TC+Locus rig) graphic would be more meaninful than a single TC.
* Added a Locus rig to the Harb * Changed to best T1 to show the iterations * Added Hail to show the meaningless of the ammo with the changes to Fusion
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Seriously Bored
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.10.28 04:06:00 -
[1388]
Edited by: Seriously Bored on 28/10/2009 04:10:07 Edited by: Seriously Bored on 28/10/2009 04:08:25
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
And the end result for the "OP EMP" is STILL less damage against shields than lasers at any range.
Phased plasma will still be every bit as suboptimal as the current EMP with the difference that it is not quite as good against t2 ships.
The only really good ammo, is fusion against armor tanks. But that is the minmatar main damage. Maybe it will be a good motive for people stop using omni tanks. As of now 2xEANM+DCII is only used because nobody really cares about explosive damage, given the race that should hit with it has low base damage.
Just to clarify: OP = Original Post in this circumstance. Not meaning to call the first suggestion "overpowered."
EDIT: Cut out paragraphs sure to just drag this conversation on longer.
In any case, my concern is that with 12-8-5 tiers instead of 11-8-6 or 11-9-6 tiers, you end up with AC performing awesomely, and Artillery performing pretty bad whatever you choose. (Fusion isn't bad in Artillery now because it's -25% instead of -50% range. EMP range in Artillery hurts.)
I would rather have ACs perform damn well (they would at 11), and long range ammo do enough damage to be worth using (it might at 6. It won't at 5.)
Otherwise, bring out the falloff Artillery fits.
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2009.10.28 04:07:00 -
[1389]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 28/10/2009 04:11:29 Branko you are jumping at shadows man. Wait until it hits the test server before having a holy hissy fit. Besides, you're comparing today's blaster fits against tomorrow's projectile fits - how the **** does that even make sense?
-Liang
Ed: I find it hilarious that you assume they didn't assume that the falloff on 425s is fine and nerf d180s and 220s by 25% and 15% respectively. Or that they didn't just leave ambits exactly as they are. Or, that blaster pilots won't bother fitting TC/TEs to their own ships. -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
Etho Demerzel
Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone
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Posted - 2009.10.28 04:15:00 -
[1390]
Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 28/10/2009 04:17:30
Originally by: Cpt Branko
:facepalm:
No.
Even assuming a overly optimistic 40% velocity being translated to transversal velocity (which is a optimistic assumption for your opponent if you fit scram+web, or disruptor+web+web), Hail DPS (fired from Hurricane, 220 autos) at 2km vs a Hurricane comes out at 648 DPS from turrets only, or 646 DPS vs a Thorax, while Fusion DPS comes out as 539 DPS vs both.
Tracking is no problem when using Hail vs same sized ships unless you're doing something *horribly* wrong. It's weakness is range; at 3km it already loses a fair deal of its potency. At 4km it's crap. At 5km Fusion pulls ahead.
You are very stubborn, aren't you?
Let me say it again, Hail is horrible and you are wrong.
But lets see why you are so wrong:
In addition to cutting your tracking by 50%, Hail cuts your optimal by 65% and your falloff by 50%. These three things together have the following effect:
Hail Suckage
Notice that I used a LSE, 3CDFE hurricane signature of 300, a tranversal of 80 and DIDN'T ACCOUNT for hit quality.
Hail has a small window of better damage than fusion (from 1.2 to 4 km). If you account for hit quality this window closes further (a gross calculation by head tells me something around 1.5-3.5), which is almost impossible to maintain if you are trying to keep the transversal low.
Conclusion, unless your target is webbed, which you can't do in your gank hurricane posted in this very thread, hail is unusable. If you CAN web the atrget you will reduce its transversal to maybe something around 40-50. And guess what, Fusion STILL has better damage above 4 Km for 40 m/s of transversal...
So basically your stubborningly defence of hail use against targets of the same size is born in ignorance and nothing else.
Ok, if the target is double webbed and painted it IS the best ammo to use, but that is a moot point... =====
"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
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Terianna Eri
Amarr Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
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Posted - 2009.10.28 04:40:00 -
[1391]
So the falloff bonus of TCs and TEs is doubled but now stacking nerfed, fair enough. Are ambit rigs getting changed or will they still be +15% falloff, unstacked?
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Cpt Branko
The Scope
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Posted - 2009.10.28 05:21:00 -
[1392]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 28/10/2009 05:21:28
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
You are very stubborn, aren't you?
Let me say it again, Hail is horrible and you are wrong.
But lets see why you are so wrong:
In addition to cutting your tracking by 50%, Hail cuts your optimal by 50% and your falloff by 50%. These three things together have the following effect:
Hail Suckage
That pretty much shows clear win for Hail.
When you are flying a plated* fit (with web+scram or dual webs), Hail is very easy to use and does result in better DPS then anything you could possibly load in a autocannon, particularly Fusion. It will in particular wipe the floor with any Harbinger caught at under 4km right now, since the EHP disparity is pretty epic due to damage types. Which I consider reasonably balanced since the same Harb does better at range.
For shield gank fits (which gain a lot in Dominion), you will need someone else to web your target in addition to a scrambler, else you run the risk of the target buggering out of range. Which now you don't - and you get the best T1 close range gank BC by far.
*Which is what I fly *most* of the time on TQ, because it is superior for BC on BC fights thanks to slaves and ability to use Hail effectively vs people who have a clue (do not sit in your optimal).
But yeah, we'll see how testing pans out in the following days. However, claiming Hail is useless for shooting same sized targets is sheer ignorance.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Etho Demerzel
Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone
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Posted - 2009.10.28 05:47:00 -
[1393]
Originally by: Cpt Branko
That pretty much shows clear win for Hail.
Only in your head.
Quote:
When you are flying a plated* fit (with web+scram or dual webs), Hail is very easy to use and does result in better DPS then anything you could possibly load in a autocannon, particularly Fusion. It will in particular wipe the floor with any Harbinger caught at under 4km right now, since the EHP disparity is pretty epic due to damage types. Which I consider reasonably balanced since the same Harb does better at range.
The graphic shows you are wrong. You will have to maintain your range between 1.5 to 4 km whilst maintaining a transversal of 40 m/s to be able to have any benefit from hail. A single MWD pulse away or toward and you are outside this window, even if the target is webbed.
Quote:
For shield gank fits (which gain a lot in Dominion), you will need someone else to web your target in addition to a scrambler, else you run the risk of the target buggering out of range. Which now you don't - and you get the best T1 close range gank BC by far.
The harbinger will still be better for anything but solo. Its superior range and instant ammo changing capacity more than makes for the damage type selection.
And if you need someone to pin down your target for you to damage it, the opponetn can have a buddy too. It is moot to argue what happens when you have more support than the target.
Quote:
*Which is what I fly *most* of the time on TQ, because it is superior for BC on BC fights thanks to slaves and ability to use Hail effectively vs people who have a clue (do not sit in your optimal).
Hail *IS* useless unless you severelly outnumber your targets and can pin him down, or if the target is stupid, otherwise you are handicapping yourself by using it. It may work, but fusion would work better. I reckon there is no shortage of either situation, but none of them have any place in a balance discussion.
Quote:
But yeah, we'll see how testing pans out in the following days. However, claiming Hail is useless for shooting same sized targets is sheer ignorance.
It is useless even against slightly oversized targets as battlecruisers in your example, as I've shown and you refuse to see. Now try Hail M against cruisers and see how you do. =====
"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
Xing Fey
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Posted - 2009.10.28 06:21:00 -
[1394]
Hmmm.. I wonder if hybrid ammo can get a look after this. Projectiles have damage type selection as a good reason to pack many types, and lasers have insta-switch so there's no reason not to pack a full spectrum (well, at least once CCP implements "switch on the fly") but hybrids have eight ammo types with no reason to ever carry more than a couple + t2 ammos. Maybe separation into range groups with therm biased/kin biased/equal ammo would help, as well as buffing another slightly anemic (but not as bad as proj was) weapons system.
Also, a rapid-reload skill would be nice...
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Sparith Jeda
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Posted - 2009.10.28 06:26:00 -
[1395]
If this is the wrong thread sorry but it seemed right.
What I'm wondering is if CCP has considered (and what everyone else thinks) about adding the small/medium autocannon effects to large autocannons in Dominion.
I can understand why they have sped up arty effects since the guns are named repeating artillery, but I always wished/thought it would be so much more badass for large autocannons to have their smaller versions graphics and Dominions revamp seems like the perfect chance for it to happen.
CCP could even rename/throw in a whole backstory to the new guns stats/graphics for extra RP factor. Hope a Dev or anyone else can reply to this in case its been mentioned before or why it shouldn't happen. I would be much obliged
tldr: can the new ACs get their smaller versions firing effects in dominion
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Lysander Kaldenn
Dead Reckoning.
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Posted - 2009.10.28 06:43:00 -
[1396]
You guys know what would be really funny? If you all kept *****ing about these changes and they got pushed back past dominion.
I think the changes in outlined in Nozh's last post look pretty damn good for minmatar. I still find this "lasers OMG WTFPWN" stuff amusing. Lasers are good, but honestly there not that good. The majority of this is just people EFT and graph/math warrioring instead of actually using said weapon. I agree projectiles had some problems, but this change looks good, really good in fact.
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gnome proper
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Posted - 2009.10.28 07:00:00 -
[1397]
Edited by: gnome proper on 28/10/2009 07:04:25 Nozh is listening to people saying we need more falloff to counteract the decreased DPS in falloff, and some numbnuts are already claiming it¦s overpowered?
Fact is, these very SMALL changes make projectiles slightly better than they were, while having the added benefit of making the ships they¦re fitted on, useable for the tactics they appear to be intended for.
If someone could pull their head out of their backside, this would be a time to rejoice, as people will be floundering, with their illconceived notion of superior projectiles and do stupid things until they learn how to fly their ships properly - or cross-train until they quit.
edit for spelling and clarity.
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2009.10.28 07:58:00 -
[1398]
Originally by: Lysander Kaldenn Edit: Branko is right, that chart does show Hail as superior, at very close range, which I think is what it's supposed to do anyway.
Except that he's wrong. That only shows hit quality, and it doesn't have a reasonable transversal setting. Under reasonable situations to be found in small-med sized gangs, Hail simply isn't a feasible ammo.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
Linas IV
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Posted - 2009.10.28 08:54:00 -
[1399]
Originally by: Sparith Jeda If this is the wrong thread sorry but it seemed right.
What I'm wondering is if CCP has considered (and what everyone else thinks) about adding the small/medium autocannon effects to large autocannons in Dominion.
I can understand why they have sped up arty effects since the guns are named repeating artillery, but I always wished/thought it would be so much more badass for large autocannons to have their smaller versions graphics and Dominions revamp seems like the perfect chance for it to happen.
CCP could even rename/throw in a whole backstory to the new guns stats/graphics for extra RP factor. Hope a Dev or anyone else can reply to this in case its been mentioned before or why it shouldn't happen. I would be much obliged
tldr: can the new ACs get their smaller versions firing effects in dominion
QFT!
I think the Dual 425s already have the AC-Style-effect and sound, simply carry it over to the 650s and 800s Please!
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Miriiah
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Posted - 2009.10.28 09:15:00 -
[1400]
Really like the changes so far, just gotta be careful not overpowering the medium tier AC's
And what some others said here, make large Repeating Artillery into Autocannons!
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Pattern Clarc
Blue Republic
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Posted - 2009.10.28 09:50:00 -
[1401]
If Hail is better then whats the problem.
If it isn't, it's more a symptom with high damage t2 ammo on the whole, as Gallente and Amarr have had similar issues for a while. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest) |
Nuts Nougat
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.10.28 10:16:00 -
[1402]
At first glance I didn't like the changes because my muninn setup relied on RF nuclear having better damage and tracking than tremor... but after the alpha boost tacklers will instapop to longest range t1 ammo anyway so who cares.
Really like +30% falloff on TE, but this might leave ambit rigs underpowered if they aren't changed.
ALSO NOZH IF YOU READ THIS!! Since you're finally scaling falloff by tier on autos, can we please have this changed transferred to artillery too? There's only 2 tiers here so balancing should be much easier. Maybe 8 and 10km base for tier1 and tier2 (currently it's 8750m on both). This might make tier2 artillery users fit locus+ambit rig so they can avoid some of the stacking penalty and shoot a little bit farther.
Originally by: Linas IV I think the Dual 425s already have the AC-Style-effect and sound, simply carry it over to the 650s and 800s Please!
This. Work from the dual 425mm effects. Currently 800mm is just boom when it should be five booms.
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CCP Nozh
C C P
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Posted - 2009.10.28 10:41:00 -
[1403]
Looks like the changes won't make it to Singularity today. Will try to get them out as soon as possible.
Some further adjustments:
* Tracking speed difference between tiers on autocannons/repeating artillery increased to 15% * 280mm / 720mm / 1400mm received a small DPS boost, now 10% more than 250mm / 650mm / 1200mm * 250mm / 650mm / 1200mm received a small tracking boost, now 25% better than 280mm / 720mm / 1400mm
and to stop speculation, the falloff tier changes were all boosts.
Falloff is now:
S: 4000/5000/6000 M: 8000/10000/12000 L: 16000/19000/22000
Nozh Game Designer CCP Games |
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2009.10.28 10:47:00 -
[1404]
So projectiles are weak, and are getting boosted. Now people are saying that hybrids are weak and deserve a boost, and they have a point...
...wouldn't it have just been simpler to have nerfed lasers?
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Pattern Clarc
Blue Republic
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Posted - 2009.10.28 10:57:00 -
[1405]
Thanks Nozh.
DPS increase effectivily fixes Artillery once and for all.
Are ship changes to the Tempest, Muninn and Vargur likely to happen before domination? ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest) |
1600 RT
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Posted - 2009.10.28 11:00:00 -
[1406]
Originally by: Gypsio III So projectiles are weak, and are getting boosted. Now people are saying that hybrids are weak and deserve a boost, and they have a point...
...wouldn't it have just been simpler to have nerfed lasers?
there is no way the current projectile boost invade the niche of blasters
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Alex Harumichi
Gallente Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2009.10.28 11:06:00 -
[1407]
Originally by: 1600 RT
Originally by: Gypsio III So projectiles are weak, and are getting boosted. Now people are saying that hybrids are weak and deserve a boost, and they have a point...
...wouldn't it have just been simpler to have nerfed lasers?
there is no way the current projectile boost invade the niche of blasters
Unless that niche is "suck cap and fail to do damage due to tracking problems"... I'm guessing you don't fly blaster boats much.
Hybrids are starting to look very sad now.
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Seishi Maru
The Black Dawn Gang
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Posted - 2009.10.28 11:18:00 -
[1408]
Stop being paranoid people! The projectiles changes are all good because they sweap projectiles into a good performance position in a more clear role difference between weapons.
Blasters now look inferior? Maybe. But its much EASIER to fix just blasters than was to fix arties and AC giving them roles and differences.
All projectiles changes should go on. They are great!
They avoid the need of any NERF on lasers that would bring up whining and people sad. As with this changes, AC and pulse lasers each are superior on different tactics adn scenarios. That is GOOD!
Now just need to make blasters again king at their realm. Their realm of operation is much easier to define. Very close range, very high damage. Blasters still have superior raw damage. Main issue is their hard time hit at their selected range. Just increase blasters tracking and they can deal their top notch damage more easily.
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Mashashige
Minmatar Eternal Perseverance Hellstrome Alliance
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Posted - 2009.10.28 11:20:00 -
[1409]
Originally by: CCP Nozh
Falloff is now:
S: 4000/5000/6000 M: 8000/10000/12000 L: 16000/19000/22000
OMG I LOVE YOU SO MUCH.
Honestly, I load barrage 90% of the time on my cane (nanofit) and with that 50% falloff increase on 425s I might actually do decent dmg at 17-20km off target. YAY FOR FALLOFF BOOST!
My view on the situation (and I have no experience with artys so I'd rather not comment too heavily on them), is that the fighting in falloff = less dps mechanics is fine, but that falloff being so damn small makes that tactic too underpowered. Maybe another small boost to falloff dedicated users is in order? buffing ambient rigs, increasing the falloff multiplier to 1.6x on barrage, or giving certain minmatar ships falloff bonuses would work very well.
Anyhow, I'm pretty damn happy with the current changes - go NOZH!
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"Never underestimate the power of human stupidity." |
Techno Dog
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.10.28 11:31:00 -
[1410]
The differental tier AC fallofs are extreme good news, as well the two arty tier changes. If the ammo changes solve the tracking problems, then the projectiles are finally left the "Gimp" status behind.
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