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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
   |
Posted - 2009.10.30 16:26:00 -
[1681]
 Originally by: Nuts Nougat
The only ships that have a "thermal hole" are t2 amarr. And they already plug that hole usually.
And T1 shield tankers that plug their EM hole. Which, according to you, is all of them.
|
Etho Demerzel
Gallente
Holy Clan of the Cone
|
Posted - 2009.10.30 16:42:00 -
[1682]
Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: Nuts Nougat
The only ships that have a "thermal hole" are t2 amarr. And they already plug that hole usually.
And T1 shield tankers that plug their EM hole. Which, according to you, is all of them.
There will always be a lower resist, but if everybody uses a certain kind of tank, a no brainer omni tank, these holes are predictable. Now if you are shield tanker and, predicting EMP and lases will be used preferably against you, you can always make your tank much stronger against EM and thermal than explosive and kin.
=====
"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
Uncle Smokey
|
Posted - 2009.10.30 16:54:00 -
[1683]
Edited by: Uncle Smokey on 30/10/2009 16:58:48
Originally by: Pattern Clarc
Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 30/10/2009 15:08:38
You have near pure damage type selection, so the point on armour tankers requiring explosive hardeners is ******ed because the top 3 ammo types are just as potent.
Originally by: Uncle Smokey
Originally by: Seriously Bored
but then why not use RF Phased Plasma instead?
because people don't reload in the middle of a close range fight?
Thats even more reason to use it in the first place.
I am quite sure the explosive hardeners would not become the standard, and even if it did, that would be good for other weapon systems, like blasters. That would also mean that PP becomes THE close range ammo, but that is only IF explosive resistance became more common than the typical omni. I wouldn't bet on that.
Any life brought back to tanking methods would be very good thing, but this is just all speculation. |
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
War.Pigs.
|
Posted - 2009.10.30 16:57:00 -
[1684]
Originally by: To mare
guys those graph are seriously flawed
Comments (to you and others):
- The DG XL is simply part of a "standard" PVP Maelstrom fit. Additionally, seeing as how nothing is shooting it, I don't see how whether it's a named XL or a DG XL materially affects the comparison.
- The range rigs on the Maelstrom is a viable complaint. However, all I did was adjust the "common" PVP fittings for certain ships (though truthfully I would argue that the Hype fit is not all that common of a fit). A common PVP Mael has TE/CPU + 3 ambits. I changed this fit very minimally, and only in ways that make sense given the changes in question.
- No, the comparisons are totally valid. If you think one of the other fits somehow can fit more range or more damage on, then you're free to suggest alternate fittings for them.
Conclusion: the graphs are totally valid, barring them having literally wrong numbers in them. It's a comparison of common/suggested PVP fits.
Of course, you are free to suggest your own fit. I will require this information:
- THE FULL FIT, including any non-fitting implants. I'll assume that whatever you throw my way fits.
- Tracking
- Optimal
- Falloff
- Damage Mod
- ROF
- Ammo damage (EM / Thm / Kin / Exp please). I can probably get this on my own if it's a standard ammo, but I'm lazy.
If you want to propose a different target:
- Velocity
- Sig Radius (in case you want anything to shoot this fit)
- Resists (in case you want anything to shoot this fit)
-Liang
--
Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
www.kwikdeath.org |
Pattern Clarc
Blue Republic
|
Posted - 2009.10.30 16:59:00 -
[1685]
Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 30/10/2009 16:59:20
Could you do all future unresisted graphs with 0 transversal velocity please.
____
Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest) |
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
War.Pigs.
|
Posted - 2009.10.30 17:04:00 -
[1686]
Originally by: Succubine
Comparable to your bias-fit, unrealistic Maelstrom. This raven now does 948 dps up to ~41km or 743 dps up to ~64km of any pure damage type.
Actually, the Mael will heavily outdamage that Raven, which loses a very significant amount of damage to sig radius.
Quote:
Not instant dps? Guess we should leave Typhoons at home. Shield tanked? So is your Maelstrom. The torp raven changed nothing and a boosted Maelstrom won't either. Armor tanks rule in pvp for BS and range+high dps+massive armor tank = Amarr.
I think you're being a bit naive. But if you think you have a better comparison Maelstrom, you are free to propose a fit with the above requirements. Remember though: all of these fits are biased towards gank. Proposing a 3 gyro Maelstrom with no ambits pretty fail today, and would be doubly so in the future. You should truthfully bend your mind to finding better fits for the other battleships.
-Liang
--
Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
www.kwikdeath.org |
Secluse
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
|
Posted - 2009.10.30 17:06:00 -
[1687]
Originally by: Seriously Bored
The core change was to balance Projectiles. The original idea was to have the damage values the same as the other races at the same range ammo.
Exactly. Keeping base damage low and flattening the falloff curve is not a boost when lasers are doing more DPS from 0km and have a 100% flat curve for a much, much longer time. You need to both increase the y-axis, and flatten the curve. In my opinion, the curve is a little too flat right now.
Originally by: Seriously Bored
True damage selection is very powerful. Not even all missile boats have it, and I would argue it's more powerful coming out of turrets than it is missiles.
True damage selection is powerful, but this is not much new for Minmatar (apart from the EMP change). This doesn't suddenly over-power this change. Additionally, you can only choose damage for close-range fits, otherwise Barrage is locked. And in my use of Minmatar, I use Barrage a lot more than I use T1 ammo. The sweet spot is making the decision to use which more balanced by tweaking the falloff curve.
And yes, I believe lasers are OP, this makes projectiles competitive against laser boats, and blasters will need a review as well. I would happily support CCP throwing out most of these changes if they would simply just fix lasers, rather than opening up other cans of worms along the way.
|
Roemy Schneider
Vanishing Point.
|
Posted - 2009.10.30 17:12:00 -
[1688]
Edited by: Roemy Schneider on 30/10/2009 17:16:12
me too! me too! -.-
- i'm not sure about tracking yet so i only took the falloff stuff (aka 0 transversal)
- w/o hit quality stuff
- BUT! in the following duel, i calc'ed damages vs the other's armor resistances (yesyes i know...)
---- [call it "effective armor removal" or w/e....]
- "dents" are switches from faction ammo to t2
- digest with care, plz
green:
[Tempest, Enfant Terroeble]
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Damage Control II
100MN MicroWarpdrive II
Medium Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 400
Warp Disruptor II
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Ogre II x3
----
red:
[Megathron, yaddayadda]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Damage Control II
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 400
Stasis Webifier II
Warp Scrambler II
100MN MicroWarpdrive II
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Large Ancillary Current Router I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Ogre II x5
-
putting the gist back into logistics |
Pattern Clarc
Blue Republic
|
Posted - 2009.10.30 17:19:00 -
[1689]
Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 30/10/2009 17:21:04
Which ones which?
I'm assuming red is the tempest? For it to get anywhere near the dps of a megathron, it'll have to use torps.
Otherwise barrage is the way to go..
If green is the tempest, then LOL 
____
Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest) |
Roemy Schneider
Vanishing Point.
|
Posted - 2009.10.30 17:20:00 -
[1690]
oops *edit*
-
putting the gist back into logistics |
To mare
Amarr
Advanced Technology
|
Posted - 2009.10.30 17:21:00 -
[1691]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: To mare
guys those graph are seriously flawed
Comments (to you and others):
- The DG XL is simply part of a "standard" PVP Maelstrom fit. Additionally, seeing as how nothing is shooting it, I don't see how whether it's a named XL or a DG XL materially affects the comparison.
- The range rigs on the Maelstrom is a viable complaint. However, all I did was adjust the "common" PVP fittings for certain ships (though truthfully I would argue that the Hype fit is not all that common of a fit). A common PVP Mael has TE/CPU + 3 ambits. I changed this fit very minimally, and only in ways that make sense given the changes in question.
- No, the comparisons are totally valid. If you think one of the other fits somehow can fit more range or more damage on, then you're free to suggest alternate fittings for them.
Conclusion: the graphs are totally valid, barring them having literally wrong numbers in them. It's a comparison of common/suggested PVP fits.
Of course, you are free to suggest your own fit. I will require this information:
- THE FULL FIT, including any non-fitting implants. I'll assume that whatever you throw my way fits.
- Tracking
- Optimal
- Falloff
- Damage Mod
- ROF
- Ammo damage (EM / Thm / Kin / Exp please). I can probably get this on my own if it's a standard ammo, but I'm lazy.
If you want to propose a different target:
- Velocity
- Sig Radius (in case you want anything to shoot this fit)
- Resists (in case you want anything to shoot this fit)
-Liang
still is something that buff the weapon no one force you to dont use it on the other ships the abaddon could benefit of a locus rig in the same way.
i say it another time if you go for passive shield tank the mael will be better for medium to large gang, the only way to do this are CDFE and you lose the ambits.
what you are doing its the same of comparing a pulse apoc to a AC tempest.
and tbh even if these changes get implemented i TQ you wont surely see minmatar BS FOTM because for actual gameplay the combination of tank/gank/range provided by amarr BS is still better, the advantage of amarr with these changes is of course reduced but they still get the edge.
yes blasterboat are a bit left behind but this could be easily solved with a SMALL dmg/tracking boost of hybrids.
but the main point is still if you want to compare the weapons do it with the same amount of modules that affect said weapon, what you mount on the ship is your way to specialize the ship, you cant compare a ship made to tank with a ship made to provide good dps at range because they do 2 different things.
the only thing i see slightly OP is the option to choose the damage type with no drawback the old damage progression emp > PP > fusion imho was better balanced and it was good for a extra range selection on artys.
also comparing the mael but not even a word on the pest/phoon.
|
Etho Demerzel
Gallente
Holy Clan of the Cone
|
Posted - 2009.10.30 17:22:00 -
[1692]
Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 30/10/2009 17:24:11
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Comments (to you and others):
- The DG XL is simply part of a "standard" PVP Maelstrom fit. Additionally, seeing as how nothing is shooting it, I don't see how whether it's a named XL or a DG XL materially affects the comparison.
It is ridiculous in this comparison to use a setup with half the EHP of the Abaddon and THREE RANGE MODULES/RIGS.
Quote:
- The range rigs on the Maelstrom is a viable complaint. However, all I did was adjust the "common" PVP fittings for certain ships (though truthfully I would argue that the Hype fit is not all that common of a fit). A common PVP Mael has TE/CPU + 3 ambits. I changed this fit very minimally, and only in ways that make sense given the changes in question.
No that is not a common maelstrom setup. It is a situational setup for maximum gank. If you want to do it fine, but do the same with the other ships. Forget trimarks on both the Abaddon and the Hyperion and go full damage.
Quote:
- No, the comparisons are totally valid. If you think one of the other fits somehow can fit more range or more damage on, then you're free to suggest alternate fittings for them.
[Abaddon, Lasers]
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
100MN MicroWarpdrive II
Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 800
Faint Warp Disruptor I
Stasis Webifier II
Mega Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L
Energy Locus Coordinator I
Energy Locus Coordinator I
Energy Locus Coordinator I
Still a hell lot more EHP than your Maelstrom.
Quote:
Conclusion: the graphs are totally valid, barring them having literally wrong numbers in them. It's a comparison of common/suggested PVP fits.
It is a comparison about pvp fittings used for DIFFERENT purposes. One is a tanky pvp fitting while the other is a ganky. If you are using them to compare damage and see nothing wrong with it you are mad.
Quote:
Of course, you are free to suggest your own fit. I will require this information:
- THE FULL FIT, including any non-fitting implants. I'll assume that whatever you throw my way fits.
- Tracking
- Optimal
- Falloff
- Damage Mod
- ROF
- Ammo damage (EM / Thm / Kin / Exp please). I can probably get this on my own if it's a standard ammo, but I'm lazy.
My fitting is suggested above.
Optimal (21.168 km ANMF, 63.503 km Scorch)
Falloff (10 km)
ROF (4.33527)
Tracking(0.04219 ANMF, 0.03164 Scorch)
Damage Mod(8.99289)
Ammo damage: ANMF (32.2 EM/23 Th), Scorch (26 EM/8 Th)
=====
"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
Roemy Schneider
Vanishing Point.
|
Posted - 2009.10.30 17:27:00 -
[1693]
Edited by: Roemy Schneider on 30/10/2009 17:27:12
Originally by: Pattern
If green is the tempest, then LOL
let me know if i should spam the details on SHC 
-
putting the gist back into logistics |
Etho Demerzel
Gallente
Holy Clan of the Cone
|
Posted - 2009.10.30 17:28:00 -
[1694]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Actually, the Mael will heavily outdamage that Raven, which loses a very significant amount of damage to sig radius.
No it does not because in the same way the Maelstrom can fit THREE range modules, the raven can fit a single painter, maybe even 2!
Quote:
I think you're being a bit naive. But if you think you have a better comparison Maelstrom, you are free to propose a fit with the above requirements. Remember though: all of these fits are biased towards gank. Proposing a 3 gyro Maelstrom with no ambits pretty fail today, and would be doubly so in the future. You should truthfully bend your mind to finding better fits for the other battleships.
-Liang
I proposed above a more ganky fitting for the abaddon instead in the post above. Waiting for the results.
=====
"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
To mare
Amarr
Advanced Technology
|
Posted - 2009.10.30 17:29:00 -
[1695]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Proposing a 3 gyro Maelstrom with no ambits pretty fail today, and would be doubly so in the future. You should truthfully bend your mind to finding better fits for the other battleships.
-Liang
no thats the main proble of you line of thinking, atm you NEED 3 ambit to make the AC mael work and those 3 ambit are wasted slots. if those changes hit TQ you might found a better use for those 3 rig slots because the weapons will work even w/o them (operational solidifier or cdfe are good candidate) of course you will still be able to fit ambit but your tank will suffer .
|
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
War.Pigs.
|
Posted - 2009.10.30 17:32:00 -
[1696]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 30/10/2009 17:32:58
Pattern, the graphs you requested:
-Liang
Ed: Hold on, I forgot to restrict the graphs to the appropriate set of ships/ammo.
--
Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
www.kwikdeath.org |
Uncle Smokey
|
Posted - 2009.10.30 17:39:00 -
[1697]
noone made a chart with P.P. King vs. hybrid charges shot at the typical eanm+dc? :( |
Pattern Clarc
Blue Republic
|
Posted - 2009.10.30 17:46:00 -
[1698]
Looking at these charts makes me wonder who in there right mind would ever use 1200mm artillery ever again, especially without alpha changes.
____
Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest) |
Etho Demerzel
Gallente
Holy Clan of the Cone
|
Posted - 2009.10.30 17:51:00 -
[1699]
Originally by: Roemy Schneider
Edited by: Roemy Schneider on 30/10/2009 17:16:12
me too! me too! -.-
- i'm not sure about tracking yet so i only took the falloff stuff (aka 0 transversal)
- w/o hit quality stuff
- BUT! in the following duel, i calc'ed damages vs the other's armor resistances (yesyes i know...)
---- [call it "effective armor removal" or w/e....]
- "dents" are switches from faction ammo to t2
- digest with care, plz
Now do the same with a geddon and mega against shields.
=====
"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
War.Pigs.
|
Posted - 2009.10.30 17:53:00 -
[1700]
Etho, the graphs you requested:
I would like to register a complaint though: while your Abaddon does in fact have more EHP, it also has significantly less tank. It is something of a ship without any real role in PVP (shy of perhaps a blob on a gate), while the Maelstrom fit I suggested would fit right in for most of the PVP I do. Outside of it being a bit of a whale. :|
-Liang
--
Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
www.kwikdeath.org |
Pattern Clarc
Blue Republic
|
Posted - 2009.10.30 17:53:00 -
[1701]
Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 30/10/2009 17:55:25
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
Originally by: Roemy Schneider
Edited by: Roemy Schneider on 30/10/2009 17:16:12
me too! me too! -.-
- i'm not sure about tracking yet so i only took the falloff stuff (aka 0 transversal)
- w/o hit quality stuff
- BUT! in the following duel, i calc'ed damages vs the other's armor resistances (yesyes i know...)
---- [call it "effective armor removal" or w/e....]
- "dents" are switches from faction ammo to t2
- digest with care, plz
Now do the same with a geddon and mega against shields.
If the Maelstrom out damages the the Abaddon against shields, the tempest will out damage them both.
@Liang
Citations please?
(No idea what's what)
____
Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest) |
Roemy Schneider
Vanishing Point.
|
Posted - 2009.10.30 17:57:00 -
[1702]
Originally by: Pattern Clarc
Looking at these charts makes me wonder who in there right mind would ever use 1200mm artillery ever again, especially without alpha changes.
this
now, i'm a minnie fanboi and i've argued in favour of them all these years.
but this is nuts...
now i like the 3 ammo "bundles". the bump to 12 raw damage is basically a must aswell.
so all i can suggest is stepping away from the full-fledged damage focus of the ammos. i believe emp users wanted their split damage back anyways. but for fusion i think we need either some t1 barrage wannabe or something like titanium sabot up there (lots of kin, [way] less explo)
the falloff to tracking modules was overdue and even doubling the effect isnt all that bad. where it goes overboard is the tier'ed extra falloff, which i didn't like from the start. countering that with less tracking is also not the same as countering optimal with less tracking; falloff cares very little for that. sry but i'm afraif we'll have to get rid of the added falloff on turret-tiers
.. and then nerf lasers -.-
-
putting the gist back into logistics |
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
War.Pigs.
|
Posted - 2009.10.30 17:59:00 -
[1703]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 30/10/2009 17:59:25
Originally by: Uncle Smokey
noone made a chart with P.P. King vs. hybrid charges shot at the typical eanm+dc? :(
Just for you Smokey :)
-Liang
Ed: Fixed which graphs were up...
--
Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
www.kwikdeath.org |
Etho Demerzel
Gallente
Holy Clan of the Cone
|
Posted - 2009.10.30 18:01:00 -
[1704]
Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 30/10/2009 18:04:12
Originally by: Liang Nuren
I would like to register a complaint though: while your Abaddon does in fact have more EHP, it also has significantly less tank. It is something of a ship without any real role in PVP (shy of perhaps a blob on a gate), while the Maelstrom fit I suggested would fit right in for most of the PVP I do. Outside of it being a bit of a whale. :|
-Liang
It has exactly the same role as your Maelstrom as long as the gang size is greater than 2. You should know better than use the active shield tank card.
Both ships are big and slow. Both ships are full ganky and both ships have equal tank capacity against focus fire (Abaddon's supperior EHP more than offsets the Maelstrom's active tanking for any realistic battleship gang size)
Originally by: Pattern Clarc
If the Maelstrom out damages the the Abaddon against shields, the tempest will out damage them both.
The Maelstrom does not outdamage the Abaddon against shields. And the Tempest has less damage than the Maelstrom.
=====
"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
War.Pigs.
|
Posted - 2009.10.30 18:06:00 -
[1705]
Originally by: Pattern Clarc
Citations please?
(No idea what's what)
Sure, I can fix that. Sorry. I guess the URL name isn't as handy for you as it is for me (considering you can't see it!).
What do you think of something like:
Attackers:
- Mael, RF EMP (Opt $optimal Falloff $falloff, Tracking $tracking)
- Hype, CN AM (...)
- ...
Target: Raven (Trans = .., Sig Radius = ...)
<GRAPH>
?
-Mark
--
Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
www.kwikdeath.org |
Roemy Schneider
Vanishing Point.
|
Posted - 2009.10.30 18:18:00 -
[1706]
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
Now do the same with a geddon and mega against shields.
too short; what do you want me to do?
shield-pest vs geddon? armor-pest and geddon vs a raven?
and i don't want to do 8-turret ships, especially not these 1v1 sisi machines i see here. -.-
-
putting the gist back into logistics |
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
War.Pigs.
|
Posted - 2009.10.30 18:19:00 -
[1707]
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
It has exactly the same role as your Maelstrom as long as the gang size is greater than 2. You should know better than use the active shield tank card.
I dunno, the buffer on your Abaddon is pretty low TBH. I'm willing to bet that the solid tank on the Mael would push that gang size up comparatively. I'm betting it's a better choice in up to gang size 5-6, especially considering how well it performs across the board.
Additionally, the Maelstrom can freely engage under sentry fire. Your Abaddon would be a very poor choice indeed for that.
-Liang
--
Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
www.kwikdeath.org |
Etho Demerzel
Gallente
Holy Clan of the Cone
|
Posted - 2009.10.30 18:24:00 -
[1708]
Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 30/10/2009 18:27:38
Originally by: Roemy Schneider
Originally by: Pattern Clarc
Looking at these charts makes me wonder who in there right mind would ever use 1200mm artillery ever again, especially without alpha changes.
this
now, i'm a minnie fanboi and i've argued in favour of them all these years.
but this is nuts...
now i like the 3 ammo "bundles". the bump to 12 raw damage is basically a must aswell.
so all i can suggest is stepping away from the full-fledged damage focus of the ammos. i believe emp users wanted their split damage back anyways. but for fusion i think we need either some t1 barrage wannabe or something like titanium sabot up there (lots of kin, [way] less explo)
the falloff to tracking modules was overdue and even doubling the effect isnt all that bad. where it goes overboard is the tier'ed extra falloff, which i didn't like from the start. countering that with less tracking is also not the same as countering optimal with less tracking; falloff cares very little for that. sry but i'm afraif we'll have to get rid of the added falloff on turret-tiers
.. and then nerf lasers -.-
1200mm ranges are not threatened by ACs new falloff. Maybe in missions where the rats orbit relatively near, but that is about it.
EMP current mix is easily obtainable by missing the new fusion and the new EMP between guns. It is much better this way, it allows those who love the current EMP to do exactly the same and allows the rest of us to better select our damage, or even go omni damage by mixing the 3 ammos between guns as missile user often do when they don't know what they are going to face.
Repeat your graphics, now comparing a mega and a geddon against shields. You will notice that the new relation between ACs and blasters is exactly the same as the very old relation between blasters and Lasers. CCP opted to improve ACs instead of nerfing lasers. So te next logic step is to improve blasters.
I reckon it would be easier to just nerf lasers, but either way is fine as long as they go all the way.
Originally by: Roemy Schneider
too short; what do you want me to do?
shield-pest vs geddon? armor-pest and geddon vs a raven?
and i don't want to do 8-turret ships, especially not these 1v1 sisi machines i see here. -.-
I think I was clear enough. You did a graphic comparing a Tempest and a Mega firing against a typical armor tanking ship (2EANMII, DCII, Plates). I just want you to do the same comparing a Geddon and a Mega firing a typical shield tanking ship (2 Inv, DCU, LSEs).
You will see the relation is about the same. Meaning that after these changes the problem is NOT ACs, which will be balanced in relation to Lasers, but Blasters, which will be in need of a boost, as I mentioned above.
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"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
Kaileen Starsong
Amarr
Veto.
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2009.10.30 18:25:00 -
[1709]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Of course, you are free to suggest your own fit. I will require this information...
Can you do 2 charts please?
No drones, no damage hardwires.
1. a) TQ-Hurricane: 6x425s /w RF Fusion(TQ Stats), 2xHAMs /w Exp Rages, 4xgyros, 3xambits
b) Dom-Hurricane: 6x425s /w RF Fusion(23 exp, 4.6 kin, assume 0.5 range mod is on optimal still), 2xHAMs with Exp Rages, 3xgyros+2xTE, T2 Rof rig
c) Harbinger: 7xHP /w AN MF, 3xHS, 2xlocuses
d) Ham-Drake: 7xHAMs /w Terror Rages, 3xBCS
Them shooting 2xeanm+dc T1 armour tank of 250 sig rad with 70 m/s linear velocity contribution to transversal
2. All the same, except ammo choice(RF EMP and EM Rages). Shooting 2xinvul+dc T1 shield tank of 300 sig rad with 70 m/s transversal.
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Linas IV
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Posted - 2009.10.30 18:25:00 -
[1710]
Guys you are complaining an awful lot even though
those changes aren't even on Sisi yet!!!
Why does everyone cry about the Tempest/Mealstrom still doing less raw DPS
at close- (<10km vs Neutrons) and long- (>25km vs Scorch) Ranges.
Ok I admit, its possible to choose a damage-type properly now, but a Torp-raven could do that all along
and no one cried that its OP (yes its a shieldtank, same as those "OP" Mealstrom Fittings here ^^)
Additionly it seems the Gallente-wing here forgot that there are other drones than Ogre II aswell
in order to get their point along. (Berserkers are Awesome)
How do you think the 1600/EAMN/DC tank became so Popular? Because exp-Damage was not competetive.
This might FINALY change now, and i think thats not a bad thing, adds another bit of diversity to PVP.
If you dont believe it, add only 1 EXP/EM Hardener and/or Rig to all those Fittings
and you will see that the new Minmatar-Bs aren't that overpowered. (EHP isn't everything!)
Lets all wait till we can test it out properly on Sisi, and then start discussing.
(Ps: to those graph-junkies, that try to influence ppl here, you all forget
the hit-quality reduction in falloff so substract roughly 15% dps at any ranges >15km)
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