/Supported.

My "co-main" is approaching SP 60mn., and it's just getting downright ludicrous.

This is a small step towards the dark side....not supported.

Your argument is so well thought out and compelling.

A) As you have mentioned it is ISK sink

B) This will devalue the death penalty for these, who fly without implants, making the Eve move from hardcore pvp towards arcade pvp (dark side)

C) Clone cost associated with character age, and older characters can earn more money than new players.

D) Clone price is negligible compared to implant cost + ship cost

E) Dropping clone price will fuel the talks of these, who also wish to get rid of implant price (similar arguments)

F) This goes against what i think is main motto of Eve - "everything comes with a price"

G) Lore-wise: There is no point for main corporations to pay for capsuleer clones, especially if they can't trust our loyalty

This argument is simply asinine. There are young players making an absolute **** ton of ISK compared to 9-10 year old vets. Age in EVE has little bearing on what you can make if you put forth effort.

*****, please.

There are more and more older players that are having to upgrade their clone to the 30 million ISK Tau and up. That is more than a T2 frigate and most definitely more than a T1 frigate, cruiser, destroyer and knocking on the door step of a battlecruiser.

Get on my level.

This is just a scare tactic from you that is paper thin. That is like me saying the EVE UI should not be improved because it would fuel the talks of players wanting combat to be a rail shooter with joystick support.

...I could give a rats ass what the motto currently is...

...**** lore. I want dumb, arbitrary mechanics that are crap removed/fixed in this game...

No, character age allows many things to be done with LESS effort, while not preventing them to earn as much as these new players do - it is more about people being able to adapt.

I fail to see a reason, why we have to give older players newbie-like benefits simply because they are unwilling \ lazy to provide for their own support.

You have 93-120 million SP and you can't afford 30 M isk per pod?

Or you want to fly most dangerous and high-paced pvp activity without associated risks? Flying in cannon fodder type ships against enemy gangs (Otherwise I do not know how you manage to loose your pods so often)

The diminishing returns aspect of skill training would disagree...

...Without which associated risks? The loss of your ship and implants? There are a lot of ships with relatively high SP requirements which are treated as cannon fodder - dictors/hics, logistics, T2 fit battleships, triage carriers, dreads.

CSM I know you guys never open up Assembly Hall anymore, I guess it is below you or something, so I will post this here.

Yes we all know the clone upgrade cost is an ISK sink. Now if the sink is added to, spread out or just removed, across other forms of ISK sinks, like cost to install a manufacturing job or something. It does not matter.

The only thing the clone upgrade cost does is discourage PvP. That is it, outside of the sink. And because it discourages potential explosions and stuff dying, etc... it itself causes inflation. If the clone upgrade cost was removed you would see a lot more combat happening and in smaller ships.

Because you can only take so many skill points with you that matter when boarding a ship, it in a way would close the gap a bit more between the vets and the young players.

It is a win win situation. So please grab CCP and convince them to make this change. It in no way makes the game more hard core like some of you like to brag about. It is just one of the mechanics that the game has outgrown.

You know I was just thinking that high skilled veteran players don't have enough advantages over low-skilled newbs. This would help widen the gap nicely.

By that mentality, how about we increase the clone upgrade cost by a factor of twenty?

By that mentality, how about we increase the clone upgrade cost by a factor of twenty?

finally a good idea

clone costs are stupid

I can repair my giant spaceship that's the size of a small island for free but have to pay tens of millions to update a clone

I can get my 2 ton car fixed for a few hundred dollars but treating a cancer the size of my thumb can cost thousands of times more than that.


Oh look costs aren't directly proportional to mass

0.0 alliances should be allowed to set the clone costs in their stations (to zero if they want)

Want a free clone? Join a spaceholding alliance.

CSM IT HAS BEEN FIVE (5) DAYS SINCE I MADE THIS PROPOSAL THREAD HAVE YOU OPENED A DIALOG WITH THE DEVELOPERS YET ABOUT THIS ISSUE

0.0 alliances should be allowed to set the clone costs in their stations (to zero if they want)

Want a free clone? Join a spaceholding alliance.

What is your reasoning behind this change being null player owned station exclusive?

My clones cost more than noob clones do! Remove clone cost and increase isk sinks that penalize newer players equally so that I don't have to pay more regardless of my increased earning potential. But just so you guize like it could increase pvp

Dont like the clone costs down grade your char. I sold my 80mil sp char gone down to 40mil sp. I have 3 other pvp alts 20mil sp. If you keep training your char till its 200mil a pod dont complain its your fault.

lol, did you actually read this post before you clicked on "submit" so your answer is don't train or sell you alt for a lower trained alt.
Genius!

My income has not gone up for a the last two years, yet my clonecost prohibits me from taking a small ship into null.

We don't all make 200mil/hour. I barely make enough to pvp because I hate grinding.

Honestly if you can't cover clone costs then you either need to look again at your ISK making profession or stop dying quite so often.

Honestly if you can't cover clone costs then you either need to look again at your ISK making profession or stop dying quite so often.

Even if they do drop clone costs risk averse carebears like yourself will just find another reason to keep being risk averse to the point of not flying expensive ships in PVP.

HTFU

The argument you just used Malcanis is getting really old. It does not matter if an old player can or can not make their clone cost fast or not. The fact that it cost what it does discourages PvPing in smaller ships regardless.

Well that is the point. You can choose the ship you fly in pvp. That way you can risk as much isk as you want. However your pod keeps getting more expensive, appart from not training there is nothing you can do about it. That is why is discourages veteran players to fly smaller ships in nullsec and wh's.

Not supported.

Risk averse much? I believe this is relevant: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgvM7av1o1Q

Paying for your med clone is insurance for your skill points. If you haven't got the ISK, fly at your own risk and suffer the consequences should you get podded. Earn some ISK in game, or sell a PLEX then upgrade your clone. Either way, the problem is solved without the need to change game mechanics.

if you can't afford your clones pfftahahaa

EVE is a single char MMO, not designed for "fleets" via the UI and such, which you control. It was designed for a single account to put up with penalties and risks, not for your 3+ accounts & plex buyers to fund their avoidance of them. Then again, times do change and we really don't need any PvP players in this game that aren't willing to fund it via multiple accounts and/or PLEX? ...

Let's assume your "mindset" isn't pervasive in this game and go with some old info, shall we?

Do you remember these parts?

- "PvE for income, PvP costs"
- SP goes across both and you can train 1 char to do *EVERYTHING*. (odd concept eh? Not having alts "focused"? *gasp*)

Based upon the antiquated "single account" logic - having base-line increased PvP costs due to SP, without offsetting income potential, doesn't make sense. At a certain point, your ability to make more will not go up to offset increased costs.

Or do you really think that the income potential differences between a 3 year old char and a 9 year old char are that great? Yet that 9 year old char is going to pay a hell of a lot more for that med clone, which is only at risk if they "bother" to PvP at all.

For your "PLEX it!" and "5 alts" players, It's "chump change" so a few peanuts less won't matter to them anymore than an increase would. It's the others that it hits and it would lessen the burden on them while also bringing into line the income potential with the costs -- which currently is not the case.

(personally I don't care either way but I do think that this "protective" cost should be matched to income potential and it's not. Not as you advance in SP -- the income potential zero's out but the costs keep going up and that's a bit off.)

Not supported.

All the ISK sink, PvP risk, lore arguments aside, losing your pod should bite. Losing your high-sp pod should bite harder. All the more reason to pay attention to what you're doing. All the more reason to win the fight if you find yourself in one.

I am not in favor of removing risk from the game. You take the risk, you pay the price.

If it doesn't feel like "I must be 7 kinds of stupid for taking a risk like this" from time to time, you're not doing it right.

Removing the risk of having to replace an expensive clone dilutes the experience, makes it that much less meaningful to engage in combat. It's not 'laying it on the line' any more. It's a stick fight with cushions at the ends. *giggle* that tickled.

A fight in EVE has to remain bloody, brutal and mean. You have to want to rip out the sink to throw it at the other guy/girl's head.

The next step is to fully insure your ship and its contents. More incentive for PvP because even less risk of losing valuables. Before you know it, we're bouncing around New Eden in a big rubber ball and nobody gets hurt anymore. Excuse me as I revisit my latest calorie download.

Don't take that vital risk away, don't destroy the character of EVE.

Not supported.

Risk averse much? I believe this is relevant: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgvM7av1o1Q

Paying for your med clone is insurance for your skill points. If you haven't got the ISK, fly at your own risk and suffer the consequences should you get podded. Earn some ISK in game, or sell a PLEX then upgrade your clone. Either way, the problem is solved without the need to change game mechanics.

If you have a lot of skills trained to level 5 then the skill points will be removed from the highest ranked of those skills.

However, for example, if you have a rank 12 skill at level 1 and a rank 4 skill at level 5, the skill points would be removed from the rank 4 skill as you have more skill points there.

When a skill has been selected, the system deducts the skill points your character has and the amount of skill points your clone saves. It then takes 5% of those skill points away, as long as that amount doesnGÇÖt total 50% of your total skill points in that skill.

To illustrate; if you have 10.000 skill points and your clone covers 9.000, the system removes 5% off 1.000 skill points, leaving 9950 skill points.

Just get a combat toon with minimum skills for pvp. A 60mil sp toon should be fighting in a stealth bomber, not a rifter.

FFS you could get a rifter-ready alt in less than a week (as in decent skilled in all weapon and support skills).

Forgetting to upgrade your clone when you cross the max SP rating of a clone is no big deal. But forgetting to upgrade after losing a clone or death clone jumping is another matter entirely. This is not about risk. The risk is 100% certain. You will get podded, and you will lose SP.

Another option is as indicated above, allow station owners to set the base cost and/or cost progression of clone fees. I find this to be a unique and potentially lucrative method of generating isk for the station owner while providing a valuable and highly desirable service. Station owners would have to compete for the best prices. This seems at first glance to be a fairly simple change, one that involves few dev resources beyond adding the appropriate UI elements to the already existing station interface. Thus it would likely fall under Team Superfriends. Send a note or twitter to CCP Punkturis.

Docking fees could be done exactly the same. Mandatory in empire, owner-set in nul. We already have this for repair fees. The lower cost of clones would likely be seen by high SP pilots an an advantage of operating in nulsec.

Exactly. If you noticed you have 3 char slots. If you main is too SP high to PvP without costing you (ahem) *more than you can afford* just stop training your main and start training up a PvP alt.

Idiot idea what i expected from you.
Why you not suggested, better if someone reached +100m SP delete his character because the clone prices is too high ???
Why should be train other pilot when someone trained 9 years ago a nice character and he want to PVP with him ???

+100m SP character need to pay over a BC value for a clone when someone lost a clone at fleet battle.
This is not help for send characters from high sec to 0.0.

The clone system need revisit. At least in 0.0 where is the repair cost is 0 ISK at nonNPC stations but the clone prices not changed and same such a high sec prices.

Should be change the clone facilities in 0.0 sec too with upgrades same at FW stations what decreasing the clone prices and everyone would win.
Lure newbees to 0.0 from high and lower prices for old pilots who therefore are going to battle on divers occasion.

But that advice or argument because the clone prices is too high, create another pvp toon and stop old character training it's a stupid idea.

Nice alt trying Kaelie but the idea still stupid.

I absolutely agree, maybe it's just the OCD talking, but it's still bugging me about how dusters will get cheaper clones than capsuleers. For now I'll just keep telling myself that they're inferior meatbags.

This was followed by a discussion about removing learning implants, to encourage more risk taking. This was generally unpopular with most of the CSM at first. The discussion turned towards clone costs, which were widely agreed to be too high for high SP characters, which discourages high SP players from going on random suicide Rifter roams. One CSM stated a point in favor of removing learning implants, as that would be a nerf to highsec income, and he is always in favor of those where possible. Other members of the CSM were quick to object to that suggestion. Another CSM objected to "his peeps being thrown under the bus". It was suggested that CCP look into the implant losses in PVP, to try to determine the amount people are currently risking in implants.

This is a small step towards the dark side....not supported.

agree, if we get rid of clone cost whats next? "oops you lost your 1B pvp ship heres another one free"

As a >90m SP 2003 character, who does die, with several hundred mil of implants in, I think the prices are fine. If you have 10's of millions of SP and can't make a little isk, I think you are doing something wrong.

So you are implying that with character age, comes increased wealth? Not everyone can play this game like it is a job or even a part time job. I understand your concert about the ISK sink and all, but what I would really love to see from CCP (if it is even possible to find, much less if they are even paying attention to this thread) is for them to research and find out what the average ISK per hour logged on is and see how that scales with age of the character.

The clone upgrade cost is as old as the game (i think) and there is a lot of game mechanics that are outdated and in dire need of revamp/removal.

I would even be willing to say, reduce insurance payouts to match the lost isk sink or greater in trade of it...

I think clone costs should remain (or, if they go, one of the isk faucets should be reduced... like incursions). I think there should be a way to reduce them, though I haven't thought far enough ahead to figure that out.

Not supported. Here's why:

Core principle of EVE: Death should have meaning.

One thing that adds meaning to death in EVE is the cost of recovering from it. Part of that is the cost of the ship (and its associated mods/rigs) you are flying, part of that is the cost of the implants you have put in your clone, and part of it is the cost of the med clone itself.

Player choice is very important in a game for a whole pile of reasons, not least of which is that one definition of "game" is "A series of interesting choices" (Sid Meier's). Every account has three character slots available to it, so one of the choices you have is "How far do I train this character before I start training another one".

I have a couple of combat alts, one is a frig/destroyer based character that can fly and T2 fit Amarr, Gallente, and Minmatar AFs, Interceptors, and Interdictors, and even has Interdictors V. All that for the low cost of just under the 15.7m clone limit (I think it costs around 900k for the clone). I no longer train that character, so no need for learning implants, and it is specifically made to be deployed permanently in the combat zone. I don't know about you, but frigs and sabres are a hell of a lot of fun to fly, and the cost of the clone is negligible compared to the cost of the ships I'm putting on the line.

My other combat alt has all cruisers at V and HAC/Recon at V. That clone is a bit more expensive, but it allows a few more options/choices.

So I have made my choices around how I configure my PvP characters, and those choices have come from an appreciation that death has meaning in EVE, and that part of that meaning is clone cost. It's really not that hard to mitigate clone cost, especially for the small fast ships.

If you take away some of the meaning of death in EVE, it becomes less niche EVE and more mainstream MMO.

Not supported. Here's why:

Core principle of EVE: Death should have meaning.

One thing that adds meaning to death in EVE is the cost of recovering from it. Part of that is the cost of the ship (and its associated mods/rigs) you are flying, part of that is the cost of the implants you have put in your clone, and part of it is the cost of the med clone itself.

Player choice is very important in a game for a whole pile of reasons, not least of which is that one definition of "game" is "A series of interesting choices" (Sid Meier's). Every account has three character slots available to it, so one of the choices you have is "How far do I train this character before I start training another one".

I have a couple of combat alts, one is a frig/destroyer based character that can fly and T2 fit Amarr, Gallente, and Minmatar AFs, Interceptors, and Interdictors, and even has Interdictors V. All that for the low cost of just under the 15.7m clone limit (I think it costs around 900k for the clone). I no longer train that character, so no need for learning implants, and it is specifically made to be deployed permanently in the combat zone. I don't know about you, but frigs and sabres are a hell of a lot of fun to fly, and the cost of the clone is negligible compared to the cost of the ships I'm putting on the line.

My other combat alt has all cruisers at V and HAC/Recon at V. That clone is a bit more expensive, but it allows a few more options/choices.

So I have made my choices around how I configure my PvP characters, and those choices have come from an appreciation that death has meaning in EVE, and that part of that meaning is clone cost. It's really not that hard to mitigate clone cost, especially for the small fast ships.

If you take away some of the meaning of death in EVE, it becomes less niche EVE and more mainstream MMO.

Death will still carry the meaning you are referring to. Do you agree that a lot of high sec players shy away from PvP due several factors and one of them is in fact the clone upgrade cost? I look at the removal of clone upgrade cost as a carrot to get them to try some PvP. They get hooked and next thing you know they are flying more expensive ships, implants, and all kinds of stuff that go boom and ISK sink that wallet they have. Also you have to look at the fact older players will fly smaller ships and more often, thus putting more ISK out there to go boom as opposed to just waiting for the next CTA to blob the **** outta some tiny fleet, thus risking nothing.

Do you not see any of that?

So you are implying that players must go the alt path? What kind of choice is that? What kind of game play makes players log in and out of different alts in order to fly and do different things? Also all those core skills having to be retrained, thus more skill points, being counter productive to your scenario.

Again you imply that with clone cost removal and the ISK sink being located somewhere else in the 'death' equation that somehow it no longer has meaning. That makes no sense at all.

You view a game mechanic that keeps a majority of the players from participating in the core concept of the game as a good thing.

I view the clone upgrade cost as an arbitrary mechanic that is nothing but pure evil and adds nothing of value to the game. It is an ISK sink that could easily be moved to something more functional and will not be discouraging players from taking part in combat.

PvP should not be reserved for players with very little skill points or the rich.

[quote=Marconus Orion]Do you agree that a lot of The cost of dying scales with the amount of advantage you gain from being able to fly bigger badder ships, or also (to a lesser extent) being able to fly smaller ships with more potency. This is something I see no problem with, an the OP's proposal will take this balancing away.

No because Imagine I'm a Indy type who has just got into PVP, I have a shedload of SP's that I have to pay for that give me no benefit in PVP at all.

So? You have a bunch of industrial skillpoints that give you benefit in making ISK to pay for your pvp.

Do you agree that a lot of high sec players shy away from PvP due several factors and one of them is in fact the clone upgrade cost?

no, they shy away from PvP because they feel that they should not PvP until they are "max level"

Just in case someone didn't notice there has been mention that there are clone blueprints on SiSi (test server).

There was mention of this in the test server feedback forum: Feedback Thread

So, it seems CCP has listened and instead of simply getting rid of cloning costs they are allowing us to build and market our own clones. I personally think this is an awesome change as it doesn't drastically effect everyone who doesn't want to use it. Also, it reinvigorates pvp with higher sp characters.

Its all good.

I want to see clone insurance services. 100m sp main and 60m sp alts.

Clone insurance... that's an interesting idea :) why isn't there a insurance on clones when there is on ships... my clone is more expensive than a bc hull almost... and the reasoning for ships to have insurance is just as good?

I have in the past... had to borrow isk from friends just to cover my clone cost... just saying

What about introducing a relatively long skill that cuts the clone costs ?


Seasoned players, who want to fly small stuff will have all that maxed out, so they have time for that skill. (and by this to further specialise into small-scale instead of going "meh I'll start training titans and caps now because I have everything else maxed out PVP-wise" )
And new players who have more important skills to train, don't need the skill.
WIN-WIN

Or just remove them completely.

I love this idea. My clone costs something like 15 million ISK - kind of takes the fun out of f'ing around in a rifter.

Although, a problem I can foresee would be the self-destruct clone jumping that is used to jump across the map to stations that you have an office in. If clones were free, it would basically be a free clone jump with no cooldown. There would need to be a mechanic to prevent it from being abused.

I'm opposed to this. The cost of clones is relative to the amount of SP you have. If you have a bazillion SP then you should have the necessary ISK to cover the cost of the clone.

New Eden is a hard, nasty, unforgiving place. It's one of the main reasons I play. Everything I do, or forget to do, has consequences. The removal of the clone upgrade cost would continue the process of turning New Eden into a happy fluffy place filled with unicorns and ponies.

If you don't want to pay the upgrade cost there's an easy solution, fly better and don't get podded.

Disclaimer: I'm a bitter-vet that's spent most of my clone's life in various 0.0 corps and alliances. The clone cost has never discouraged me from engaging in PvP.

I want the cost to be associated with the ship, not how long someone has been playing the game. You go on about 'happy fluffy place filled with unicorns and ponies' yet fail to realize there is no excitement and explosions by pressing the 'upgrade clone' button. With more combat happening due to the remove of clone upgrades there would in fact be very close if not more in ISK being blown up.

You view pressing a button to upgrade your clone as hard core, I view undocking with ships instead as being hard core because I know **** is going to blow up. I am more than willing to debate against anyone who does not see this. It is a trash mechanic that has outlived its purpose, if any at all and does nothing but discourages ships from blowing up.

Please take a moment to see the butterfly effect and perhaps entertain the idea of more combat as a good thing.

If you want to talk about butterfly effects then look at this from the thin-edge of the wedge point of view. If we get rid of clone costs what is next? Better insurance?