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EVE ignores simple physics !

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Carinae	Posted - 2004.10.27 09:38:00 - [1] 1 - Why is there friction in space, when there is no air? 2 - Why can I fly through planets and stations when I go into warp? 3 - Why is there no debrie from blown up pirates? (Small ones anyway) 1 - To move, you need to have you engines running, when you want to stop you turn them off and 'friction' in space brings you to a halt. In the Elite series, the ship just kept moving, and the engines were only used to accelerate or slow down, I found this to be a much more realistic environment. 2 - When in warp, the game ignores the fact threre are planets and space stations in the way and I fly through them. Is this some benefite of warp in EVE or just the way its been programmed? Again, in the Elite series (On the Commadore Amiga and P1 75MHz) the game took these objects into consideration and would fly around them. 3 - Debri, surly when an object is destroyed like a ship, there should be debri, even if it is only for an hour or so, it could be somthing that could be scooped up and processed as minerals etc. OK, I am a big fan of the Elite series, which is why I enjoy this game so much because of the similarities, but simple and basic physics should be considered like they were in the game that is now over a decade old! Sorry to nag but these are the only things in EVE thar annoy me. Warrior of the Ushra'Khan Death to slavery
Carinae	Posted - 2004.10.27 09:38:00 - [2] 1 - Why is there friction in space, when there is no air? 2 - Why can I fly through planets and stations when I go into warp? 3 - Why is there no debrie from blown up pirates? (Small ones anyway) 1 - To move, you need to have you engines running, when you want to stop you turn them off and 'friction' in space brings you to a halt. In the Elite series, the ship just kept moving, and the engines were only used to accelerate or slow down, I found this to be a much more realistic environment. 2 - When in warp, the game ignores the fact threre are planets and space stations in the way and I fly through them. Is this some benefite of warp in EVE or just the way its been programmed? Again, in the Elite series (On the Commadore Amiga and P1 75MHz) the game took these objects into consideration and would fly around them. 3 - Debri, surly when an object is destroyed like a ship, there should be debri, even if it is only for an hour or so, it could be somthing that could be scooped up and processed as minerals etc. OK, I am a big fan of the Elite series, which is why I enjoy this game so much because of the similarities, but simple and basic physics should be considered like they were in the game that is now over a decade old! Sorry to nag but these are the only things in EVE thar annoy me. Warrior of the Ushra'Khan Death to slavery
Fabiusbile	Posted - 2004.10.27 09:43:00 - [3] Who cares about the physics, its a wicked game. just sit back and enjoy the ride. ------------------------------------------------ fabiusbile Director of R&D and Mining opp's i want to buy T2 indy bpc's
Fabiusbile	Posted - 2004.10.27 09:43:00 - [4] Who cares about the physics, its a wicked game. just sit back and enjoy the ride. ------------------------------------------------ fabiusbile Director of R&D and Mining opp's i want to buy T2 indy bpc's
Carinae	Posted - 2004.10.27 10:06:00 - [5] Oh, I do enjoy the game...through to 3am most nights, but I liked the realism of true space and no friction. In Elite, when you wanted to slow down, retro thrusters were incorporated into the ship to bring you to a stop, and your speed was always relative to the closest cilestrial body, be it planet, moon or space station, (and the moons did orbit the planets rather then hang there) It just something that is nagging at me. Warrior of the Ushra'Khan Death to slavery
Carinae	Posted - 2004.10.27 10:06:00 - [6] Oh, I do enjoy the game...through to 3am most nights, but I liked the realism of true space and no friction. In Elite, when you wanted to slow down, retro thrusters were incorporated into the ship to bring you to a stop, and your speed was always relative to the closest cilestrial body, be it planet, moon or space station, (and the moons did orbit the planets rather then hang there) It just something that is nagging at me. Warrior of the Ushra'Khan Death to slavery
Richard Pooley	Posted - 2004.10.27 11:39:00 - [7] Have you thought about the possibility of the ship thrusters being so small or not create a large enough flare to see them? They might still be there, just not set to be shown. But the going through objects doesn't just happen with planets. I've actually gone through space stations and other ships have passed right through me as I left a space station, as if I was a ghost or they were a ghost. ___________________ I live to mine!
Richard Pooley	Posted - 2004.10.27 11:39:00 - [8] Have you thought about the possibility of the ship thrusters being so small or not create a large enough flare to see them? They might still be there, just not set to be shown. But the going through objects doesn't just happen with planets. I've actually gone through space stations and other ships have passed right through me as I left a space station, as if I was a ghost or they were a ghost. ___________________ I live to mine!
Andrue	Posted - 2004.10.27 13:52:00 - [9] If Eve obeyed the laws of physics: * There'd be no warp at all. Faster than light travel (at any velocity) is currently considered impossible by most physicists because of the potential to violate the laws of causality (examples can be created that show effect coming before cause). * Piloting a ship would be either impossible or boring. If it didn't use computers it would require players to spend several years learning about space navigation and physics. You'll notice that astronaughts train for a long, long time and are usually ex-fighter or even ex-test pilots. If it used computers you wouldn't even be involved since they'd do everything for you. Given how easy it is to build and install computers we can forget piloting using a joystick. Even airline pilots don't pilot by hand much any more. * There'd be no "hands on" combat. The physics and practicalities of space flight mean that combat (if it occurred in space at all) would be at extreme long distance with moves and countermoves being planned and played out over several hours. * There'd be no trade. In truth - why would Earth ever want to trade with another planet? We have everything we need right here. The only thing we don't have is information and it'd be cheaper and faster to send that by radio. Most people who played the version of Frontier (not the original Eve which was a classic) gave up because of the realistic physics of the flight engine. Human beings need to train for a long time before they can come to grips with frictionless motion. Put simply:If Eve followed the laws of physics it wouldn't exist. I hate to burst your bubble but you will never have dogfights in space. It will probably take you most of your lifetime to travel to the next starsystem. Trade will be in-system only because it's not needed, too expensive and too slow between stars. As a science fiction fan I find some of this objectionable. As a late-thirties adult I accept that sometimes reality bites. Sorry. -- (Battle hardened miner) [Brackley, UK] WARNING:This post may contain large doses of reality.
Andrue	Posted - 2004.10.27 13:52:00 - [10] If Eve obeyed the laws of physics: * There'd be no warp at all. Faster than light travel (at any velocity) is currently considered impossible by most physicists because of the potential to violate the laws of causality (examples can be created that show effect coming before cause). * Piloting a ship would be either impossible or boring. If it didn't use computers it would require players to spend several years learning about space navigation and physics. You'll notice that astronaughts train for a long, long time and are usually ex-fighter or even ex-test pilots. If it used computers you wouldn't even be involved since they'd do everything for you. Given how easy it is to build and install computers we can forget piloting using a joystick. Even airline pilots don't pilot by hand much any more. * There'd be no "hands on" combat. The physics and practicalities of space flight mean that combat (if it occurred in space at all) would be at extreme long distance with moves and countermoves being planned and played out over several hours. * There'd be no trade. In truth - why would Earth ever want to trade with another planet? We have everything we need right here. The only thing we don't have is information and it'd be cheaper and faster to send that by radio. Most people who played the version of Frontier (not the original Eve which was a classic) gave up because of the realistic physics of the flight engine. Human beings need to train for a long time before they can come to grips with frictionless motion. Put simply:If Eve followed the laws of physics it wouldn't exist. I hate to burst your bubble but you will never have dogfights in space. It will probably take you most of your lifetime to travel to the next starsystem. Trade will be in-system only because it's not needed, too expensive and too slow between stars. As a science fiction fan I find some of this objectionable. As a late-thirties adult I accept that sometimes reality bites. Sorry. -- (Battle hardened miner) [Brackley, UK] WARNING:This post may contain large doses of reality.
Gavriel Garnier	Posted - 2004.10.27 14:15:00 - [11] Edited by: Gavriel Garnier on 27/10/2004 14:19:35 Ha! And to think, the only objection I had was that there's no sound in space. Nice post, Andrue. :)
Gavriel Garnier	Posted - 2004.10.27 14:15:00 - [12] Edited by: Gavriel Garnier on 27/10/2004 14:19:35 Ha! And to think, the only objection I had was that there's no sound in space. Nice post, Andrue. :)
Carinae	Posted - 2004.10.27 14:55:00 - [13] Yes, granted. If true physics were adheard to, there would be no warp, light speed trading etc. But the simplest realisation is that there is no friction in space. And the flight engine in EVE calculats that the ship will slow down if there is no acceleration and that a max speed can be attained, rather then a max acceleration of an engine. I was merely stating that I think this would be a basic requirment for a space sim game. I was not stating that the complete laws of physics should be recognised in EVE. And I accept your argument that EVE is a game and not a true space flight simulator. But the flight engine would add a further depth of realism if 0 friction was used. Top gam, only playing 2 weeks and already spent ú150 on new graphics card and RAM to get the most out of it.. Warrior of the Ushra'Khan Death to slavery
Carinae	Posted - 2004.10.27 14:55:00 - [14] Yes, granted. If true physics were adheard to, there would be no warp, light speed trading etc. But the simplest realisation is that there is no friction in space. And the flight engine in EVE calculats that the ship will slow down if there is no acceleration and that a max speed can be attained, rather then a max acceleration of an engine. I was merely stating that I think this would be a basic requirment for a space sim game. I was not stating that the complete laws of physics should be recognised in EVE. And I accept your argument that EVE is a game and not a true space flight simulator. But the flight engine would add a further depth of realism if 0 friction was used. Top gam, only playing 2 weeks and already spent ú150 on new graphics card and RAM to get the most out of it.. Warrior of the Ushra'Khan Death to slavery
Andrue	Posted - 2004.10.27 15:28:00 - [15] Originally by: Carinae Yes, granted. If true physics were adheard to, there would be no warp, light speed trading etc. But the simplest realisation is that there is no friction in space. And the flight engine in EVE calculats that the ship will slow down if there is no acceleration and that a max speed can be attained, rather then a max acceleration of an engine. There is one possible explanation. Every motor we have invented is reaction based. That is it depends on one thing pushing another. Rocket motors work by throwing gas out of the exhaust at high speed so that the equal and opposite reaction pushes the craft forward. You walk by pushing against the ground. I think that some scientists are discussing the possibility of a reaction-less motor. If such a motor was invented it would by definition have to be positional. IOW you move by changing your position. If you turn the motor off you stop changing your position and you stop moving. -- (Battle hardened miner) [Brackley, UK] WARNING:This post may contain large doses of reality.
Andrue	Posted - 2004.10.27 15:28:00 - [16] Originally by: Carinae Yes, granted. If true physics were adheard to, there would be no warp, light speed trading etc. But the simplest realisation is that there is no friction in space. And the flight engine in EVE calculats that the ship will slow down if there is no acceleration and that a max speed can be attained, rather then a max acceleration of an engine. There is one possible explanation. Every motor we have invented is reaction based. That is it depends on one thing pushing another. Rocket motors work by throwing gas out of the exhaust at high speed so that the equal and opposite reaction pushes the craft forward. You walk by pushing against the ground. I think that some scientists are discussing the possibility of a reaction-less motor. If such a motor was invented it would by definition have to be positional. IOW you move by changing your position. If you turn the motor off you stop changing your position and you stop moving. -- (Battle hardened miner) [Brackley, UK] WARNING:This post may contain large doses of reality.
Catastrofik	Posted - 2004.10.27 22:18:00 - [17] Originally by: Gavriel Garnier Edited by: Gavriel Garnier on 27/10/2004 14:19:35 Ha! And to think, the only objection I had was that there's no sound in space. CCP covered this one in the short story, "The Jovian Wet Grave" "Audio synthesizers? What do you mean?" Pirkotan thought. "As you know there is no sound in space, but when we were developing the capsules we found that people wanted to use as many of their senses as possible, thus we added the sound. By letting a computer create three dimensional sound we also add to the awareness you have while in battles, for instance." Several seconds later Pirkotan could hear the audio synthesizers kick in; he could hear the low humming noise of the propulsion system and the sudden hissing sound of course-correctional thrusters. Anu came back on: "Now we'll test the audio system." Outer space is no place for a person of breeding.
Catastrofik	Posted - 2004.10.27 22:18:00 - [18] Originally by: Gavriel Garnier Edited by: Gavriel Garnier on 27/10/2004 14:19:35 Ha! And to think, the only objection I had was that there's no sound in space. CCP covered this one in the short story, "The Jovian Wet Grave" "Audio synthesizers? What do you mean?" Pirkotan thought. "As you know there is no sound in space, but when we were developing the capsules we found that people wanted to use as many of their senses as possible, thus we added the sound. By letting a computer create three dimensional sound we also add to the awareness you have while in battles, for instance." Several seconds later Pirkotan could hear the audio synthesizers kick in; he could hear the low humming noise of the propulsion system and the sudden hissing sound of course-correctional thrusters. Anu came back on: "Now we'll test the audio system." Outer space is no place for a person of breeding.
Ramov Tinoga	Posted - 2004.10.27 22:56:00 - [19] I remember the two functions I used most in Elite II - Frontier: Autopilot and Accelerate Time by maximum 8) -----
Ramov Tinoga	Posted - 2004.10.27 22:56:00 - [20] I remember the two functions I used most in Elite II - Frontier: Autopilot and Accelerate Time by maximum 8) -----
Carinae	Posted - 2004.10.28 08:21:00 - [21] Edited by: Carinae on 28/10/2004 08:24:05 I shall read up on 'Wet grave' ASAP. Cheers Warrior of the Ushra'Khan Death to slavery
Carinae	Posted - 2004.10.28 08:21:00 - [22] Edited by: Carinae on 28/10/2004 08:24:05 I shall read up on 'Wet grave' ASAP. Cheers Warrior of the Ushra'Khan Death to slavery
Naomi Venture	Posted - 2004.10.28 10:22:00 - [23] Originally by: Carinae I was merely stating that I think this would be a basic requirment for a space sim game. You're welcome to your opinion. I disagree with it, though. These are Captial Starships, not fighters or shuttles. There's a lot of mass to push around, and if they didn't have thrusters to slow them down (Had to turn around and fire the main engines to change trajectory) we'd be slamming into stations and asteroids and each other all the time. If they had collision for those things as well, which they don't for various griefability reasons.
Naomi Venture	Posted - 2004.10.28 10:22:00 - [24] Originally by: Carinae I was merely stating that I think this would be a basic requirment for a space sim game. You're welcome to your opinion. I disagree with it, though. These are Captial Starships, not fighters or shuttles. There's a lot of mass to push around, and if they didn't have thrusters to slow them down (Had to turn around and fire the main engines to change trajectory) we'd be slamming into stations and asteroids and each other all the time. If they had collision for those things as well, which they don't for various griefability reasons.
Ydyp Ieva	Posted - 2004.10.28 10:26:00 - [25] That story 'Jovian wet grave' is realy a good start. Just wondering about one thing: why does my ship always toll downwards? Isn't it easier to disable those calculation for gravity? __________________________________________________ "Time will reveal everything, but only once so be prepared."
Ydyp Ieva	Posted - 2004.10.28 10:26:00 - [26] That story 'Jovian wet grave' is realy a good start. Just wondering about one thing: why does my ship always toll downwards? Isn't it easier to disable those calculation for gravity? __________________________________________________ "Time will reveal everything, but only once so be prepared."
Carinae	Posted - 2004.10.28 12:43:00 - [27] Naomi, That would be part of the game though, accelerating and then decellerating to the required speed before reaching the destination. Having weak reverse thrusters at the front of the ship, or having to reverse the ship around to use main thrusters would be tactics used to monouver the craft. It appears the current engine driver is designed for ease of use rather then even basic realism. As for colliding with planets, stations etc. then when exiting a station, the craft should only warp when in clear sight of the destination, or having to make two jumps to avoid a celestrial body that may impeed direct line of sight. Getting used to the zero friction rules would not take long to get used to. Autopilot would help a lot after all Warrior of the Ushra'Khan Death to slavery
Carinae	Posted - 2004.10.28 12:43:00 - [28] Naomi, That would be part of the game though, accelerating and then decellerating to the required speed before reaching the destination. Having weak reverse thrusters at the front of the ship, or having to reverse the ship around to use main thrusters would be tactics used to monouver the craft. It appears the current engine driver is designed for ease of use rather then even basic realism. As for colliding with planets, stations etc. then when exiting a station, the craft should only warp when in clear sight of the destination, or having to make two jumps to avoid a celestrial body that may impeed direct line of sight. Getting used to the zero friction rules would not take long to get used to. Autopilot would help a lot after all Warrior of the Ushra'Khan Death to slavery
Naomi Venture	Posted - 2004.10.28 14:16:00 - [29] Originally by: Carinae Naomi, That would be part of the game though, accelerating and then decellerating to the required speed before reaching the destination. But it's not a part of this game. Just like it's not a part of X-Wing, Wing Commander, Freelancer or Freespace. Quote: Getting used to the zero friction rules would not take long to get used to. Autopilot would help a lot after all Eh. I'd probably just quit. I'm not a big fan of "real" space physics, since it winds up fake anyway (Like in Jumpgate) and really adds nothing substantial to the game. For me, anyway. With all the docking, undocking, going to and fro, I'd get real sick of "real" physics within an hour or two.
Naomi Venture	Posted - 2004.10.28 14:16:00 - [30] Originally by: Carinae Naomi, That would be part of the game though, accelerating and then decellerating to the required speed before reaching the destination. But it's not a part of this game. Just like it's not a part of X-Wing, Wing Commander, Freelancer or Freespace. Quote: Getting used to the zero friction rules would not take long to get used to. Autopilot would help a lot after all Eh. I'd probably just quit. I'm not a big fan of "real" space physics, since it winds up fake anyway (Like in Jumpgate) and really adds nothing substantial to the game. For me, anyway. With all the docking, undocking, going to and fro, I'd get real sick of "real" physics within an hour or two.

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