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Nifter Telfo
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Posted - 2009.10.06 16:45:00 -
[1]
I'm not quite sure I understand the point of faction ships smaller than the BS.
They cost a ridiculous amount more than their T1 counterparts but provide less value than the T2 versions. The BS versions I can understand. Training for a Marauder is tedious and the benefits aren't as crazy as one would hope (maybe others get off tractor beaming stuff while missioning, but not me).
The frigate versions and the cruiser versions don't seem to have any purpose though. Are they meant for missions? I would think that anyone who can afford those ships for their LV2/3s would be wealthy enough and know enough people to run a few LV4s and split the standings bonus to get to LV4s fast enough.
The other purpose is pvp, but if that was their purpose, why do they cost as much or more than their T2 counterparts? Would people say they are better than their T2 counter parts? I hear everyone flying HACs but I barely ever hear about people flying faction ships in PVP.
I was thinking perhaps you could use a nice faction frig for 1v1s in Red vs Blue (the only place where I would have a fair fight and not get blobbed flying faction). But it doesn't seem like it's fair when people ask for T1 1v1 and you bring out a faction ship.
The only other reason I could think of for the ships existence is to be eye candy for use while jumping from region to region doing price checks or simply use as a shuttle.
TL;DR Basically, what's the point of faction frig/cruiser ships?
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Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp IT Alliance
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Posted - 2009.10.06 16:48:00 -
[2]
I solo killed a Loki in a Gila on the test server. I guess the cost:performance ratio is okay.
(/me pumps up the value of his faction cruiser collection...)
アニメ漫画です
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Shirley Serious
Amarr The Khanid Sisters of Athra
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Posted - 2009.10.06 16:54:00 -
[3]
faction frigates and cruisers count as T1, for the purposes of FW complexes that restrict entry.
So, faction frigates can enter the destroyer/t1 frigate complexes, and the faction cruisers can enter the t1 cruiser/t2 frigate complexes.
In addition to any other things they're good at.
Yes. Yes, I am. |
Nifter Telfo
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Posted - 2009.10.06 16:57:00 -
[4]
The boost to faction ships is definitely a great help in making them more useful, but that still doesn't overcome their price tag.
T1 frig: 50k after insurance. T2 frig: 20 mill? (don't fly T2 yet) after insurance. Faction frig: 60-70 mill after insurance?
Cheapest pirate faction frigs I've seen on contracts have been 80 mill, and even that's a poor ratio for LP to ISK.
Empire navy faction frigs, I've seen price tags between 25-40 mill, a bit more manageable, but they don't seem to be as strong as the pirate versions.
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Doomed Predator
Red Federation
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Posted - 2009.10.06 17:01:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Avon I solo killed a Loki in a Gila on the test server. I guess the cost:performance ratio is okay.
(/me pumps up the value of his faction cruiser collection...)
Buff the Loki The 'Fendahlian Collective' strikes again |
Catherine Frasier
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Posted - 2009.10.06 17:23:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Nifter Telfo I'm not quite sure I understand the point of faction ships smaller than the BS.
Maybe we can try to figure out why you're having this problem...
Originally by: Nifter Telfo Training for a Marauder is tedious and the benefits aren't as crazy as one would hope
...and perhaps there's the answer! Maybe "one" has unreasonable expectations of "crazy" wtfpwnmobiles and doesn't understand "the point" in anything else?
Originally by: Nifter Telfo The other purpose is pvp, but if that was their purpose, why do they cost as much or more than their T2 counterparts?
...or maybe "one" is used to playing another game in which items have a specific narrow purpose and the price is set by the devs? Those ideas don't apply here.
Originally by: Nifter Telfo I hear everyone flying HACs but I barely ever hear about people flying faction ships in PVP.
Basically, you hear wrong. Nothing in eve is so cookie-cutter that everyone flies, or doesn't fly, any particular ship or class of ship for some purpose. People run missions in Rattlesnakes, people PvP in Gilas and people fly Firetails as shuttles.
Sandbox, remember?
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Draeca
Tharri and Co.
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Posted - 2009.10.06 17:26:00 -
[7]
Try a daredevil (buffed sisi version) in pvp and figure out.
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Babel
Boom and Bust Economics Ltd. N0thing To See Here
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Posted - 2009.10.06 17:27:00 -
[8]
1 with a disruptor, 2 with a scrambler ..... next question ? :) . "Out of the good of evil born, Came Uriel's voice of cherub scorn" |
Stuart Price
Caldari The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates
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Posted - 2009.10.06 17:31:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Avon I solo killed a Loki in a Gila on the test server. I guess the cost:performance ratio is okay.
(/me pumps up the value of his faction cruiser collection...)
I managed the same feat with a Deimos.
/me tries to drop the price of everyone else's faction cruisers so I can buy more. Putting the 'irate' into 'Pirate' |
Ashley Sky
Guiding Hand Social Club
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Posted - 2009.10.06 17:32:00 -
[10]
Faction ships are for noobs that like to sell PLEXs and can't get into the T2 versions of these ships.
Also, They're an isk sink like so many other aspects of the game, to keep you playing, and so the devs don't have to create new models but can have "different" ships. So they can re-use the same icons, like footage in a B movie.
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Carcosa Hali
Order of Anarchy The Laughing Men
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Posted - 2009.10.06 17:39:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Nifter Telfo The boost to faction ships is definitely a great help in making them more useful, but that still doesn't overcome their price tag.
T1 frig: 50k after insurance. T2 frig: 20 mill? (don't fly T2 yet) after insurance. Faction frig: 60-70 mill after insurance?
Cheapest pirate faction frigs I've seen on contracts have been 80 mill, and even that's a poor ratio for LP to ISK.
Empire navy faction frigs, I've seen price tags between 25-40 mill, a bit more manageable, but they don't seem to be as strong as the pirate versions.
They aren't as strong as pirate ships. Pirate ships are much harder to get ahold of, therefore they're much tougher by comparison. I admit I haven't taken my succubus or phantasm out PVP'ing yet, but they certainly mop up missions like crazy, and look good for the noobs.
It's like blowing your money on a 54" plasma.. unnecessary, but still kinda nice. v0v
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Jesslyn Daggererux
Private Nuisance
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Posted - 2009.10.06 18:16:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Ashley Sky Faction ships are for noobs that like to sell PLEXs and can't get into the T2 versions of these ships.
Also, They're an isk sink like so many other aspects of the game, to keep you playing, and so the devs don't have to create new models but can have "different" ships. So they can re-use the same icons, like footage in a B movie.
lots of pirate faction ships have unique models. and i still think that thing on your head is ridiculous.
Originally by: CCP Fallout
Hola, esta forum es ingles solamente.
This forum is English only. Welcome to my lock. Now please, zip your pants. I don't need a show.
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Dodgy Past
Amarr Lollipops for Rancors
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Posted - 2009.10.06 18:52:00 -
[13]
Navy Omen makes a great L1-L3 mission ship and is a little more flexible than the standard T1 / T2 Amarr Cruiser line up.
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baltec1
Antares Shipyards Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2009.10.06 18:53:00 -
[14]
Bling.
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Cors
It's A Trap
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Posted - 2009.10.06 18:54:00 -
[15]
Part of it is the suprise. A lot of people may know all the T1, even all the T2 ships names, and features, and normal fittings, but the vast majority of eve players are not that familiar with the Faction Frigs/Cruisers. Especially on how they should be flown/defended against.
So people tend to underestimate them, and get killed because they see it as "just" a T1 Frigate/Cruiser.
Surprise wins a LOT of pvp fights.
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Irida Mershkov
Gallente War is Bliss
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Posted - 2009.10.06 19:04:00 -
[16]
Originally by: baltec1 Bling.
This.
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Guillame Herschel
Gallente NME1
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Posted - 2009.10.06 19:17:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Shirley Serious faction frigates and cruisers count as T1, for the purposes of FW complexes that restrict entry.
So, faction frigates can enter the destroyer/t1 frigate complexes, and the faction cruisers can enter the t1 cruiser/t2 frigate complexes.
Not true for pirate faction ships. They count as T2 for the purposes of plex entry.
-- He said "The President is near."
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Amitious Turkey
Gallente TarNec New Eden Retail Federation
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Posted - 2009.10.06 19:36:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Amitious Turkey on 06/10/2009 19:36:46
Originally by: baltec1 Bling.
This. Carebear epeen.
BECAUSE OF FALCONDUST!
Originally by: CCP Navigator We love you all as well <3
GO NAVIGATOR <3 |
Rilwar
BlackStar Industrial
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Posted - 2009.10.06 19:56:00 -
[19]
I use a Naracal for when I've need to blitz an assload of L3 missions, it out DPS' a Cerb. -------------------------------------------------
Mitnal was here. |
Tippia
Raddick Explorations Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2009.10.06 20:00:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Irida Mershkov
Originally by: baltec1 Bling.
This.
Those.
Also, I think a Gila will be a fun alternative to the Ishtar for L4s. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
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Obsidian Hawk
RONA Corporation
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Posted - 2009.10.06 20:04:00 -
[21]
OP you dont read the forums much do you?
Go to the test server feedback forum and read the threads of navy and pirate ship changes.
then you will see why pirate ships cost so much.
/thread --------------------------
WTB a sig, or moderation of my sig by all the hot CCP girls. |
Nifter Telfo
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Posted - 2009.10.06 20:09:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Nifter Telfo on 06/10/2009 20:12:57
Originally by: Catherine Frasier
Originally by: Nifter Telfo
Training for a Marauder is tedious and the benefits aren't as crazy as one would hope
...and perhaps there's the answer! Maybe "one" has unreasonable expectations of "crazy" wtfpwnmobiles and doesn't understand "the point" in anything else?
I was merely commenting on the fact that Marauder take forever to train and provide little benefit (please don't take things out of context). So it's a pretty logical choice to take the faction ship. I made no mention of wanting Marauders to be wtfpwnmobiles, as that would actually make it less appealing for new people to enter the game late. I'm happy I don't have to spend months training for a ship that wont drastically improve my ISK/Hour.
Originally by: Catherine Frasier
Originally by: Nifter Telfo The other purpose is pvp, but if that was their purpose, why do they cost as much or more than their T2 counterparts?
...or maybe "one" is used to playing another game in which items have a specific narrow purpose and the price is set by the devs? Those ideas don't apply here.
In this case the price is set by devs. Players can't influence the LP cost in any way, which is precisely why these ships have such high costs.
Originally by: Catherine Frasier
Originally by: Nifter Telfo I hear everyone flying HACs but I barely ever hear about people flying faction ships in PVP.
Basically, you hear wrong. Nothing in eve is so cookie-cutter that everyone flies, or doesn't fly, any particular ship or class of ship for some purpose. People run missions in Rattlesnakes, people PvP in Gilas and people fly Firetails as shuttles.
Sandbox, remember?
I obviously over generalized, but that's not the point of that argument. I was making a note that faction ships aren't mentioned as PVP items on a usual basis. I suppose I could got to EVE-search and find people talking about them, but on a regular basis I don't come across people using them for any examples on the forums. If you avoid taking things out of context you would see that I am asking for people to explain to me whether faction ships are better than HACs in any way.
------
Nice info on the FW plexes, I didn't know that stuff. However I'm also under the impression that doing FW plexes does not guarantee my safety while I have a missioning fit, and as such am reluctant to take an expensive ship into the area.
It just seems like a waste of development resources since those ships aren't as popular. I'm sure a ton of work went into the creation of all the really beautiful models, but very few are flying them. For the price of these ships I'm better off using the ISK to buy Game Time Cards and fuel a 2nd account. I'm sure 2 rifters should have no problem taking down any faction frig or killing faster in complexes.
Would anyone advice me to train for these ships over training for a T2 ship? Should I go and train a different faction's cruiser skills (+ any support skills) to full in hopes of flying these ships to some kind of useful purpose?
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2009.10.06 20:10:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Zeba on 06/10/2009 20:16:56
Originally by: Obsidian Hawk OP you dont read the forums much do you?
Go to the test server feedback forum and read the threads of navy and pirate ship changes.
then you will see why pirate ships cost so much.
/thread
But thats against n00b forum thread creation etiquette. You always make a thread before you are well informed on the subject hoping to get other people to do your work for you.
edit: meh
Quote: [03:39:05] Emperor Salazar > HOLY **** ITS ZEBA [03:39:20] Emperor Salazar > NEVER STOP POASTING
Zeba is the BEST! ~Mitnal |
Nifter Telfo
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Posted - 2009.10.06 20:27:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Nifter Telfo on 06/10/2009 20:28:33 Edited by: Nifter Telfo on 06/10/2009 20:27:37
Originally by: Obsidian Hawk OP you dont read the forums much do you?
Go to the test server feedback forum and read the threads of navy and pirate ship changes.
then you will see why pirate ships cost so much.
/thread
That's exactly the reason I'm posting this actually. I'm curious whether people consider these ships worthy of their price tag and additional training costs in some cases. However there are still 2 months until the expansion comes out, and what if I was a player who only had 2 months of subscription time left? We're talking about things in the present time, and how they were for many months past. If I wanted to know whether they were decent for their price in 2 months I would ask the question on the test realm.
Even then, taking the changes into account. I still don't see the ships as valuable as their price tag. Would you fly a faction cruiser alone? Or would you rather fly 2 vexors? Would a faction cruiser kill 2 vexors (or any other popular cruiser)?
I have also not had the pleasure of testing the new changes because of problems installing the test server client.
I was actually very happy when I saw the introduction of the faction dominix. I occasionally run LV4s with a friend who has pretty poor gunnery skills, but amazing drone skills, so the faction Megathron never really appealed to him, but in a few months we might be able to boost our LV4 speed/enjoyment with the introduction of this ship.
EDIT: Spelling.
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2009.10.06 20:30:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Nifter Telfo In this case the price is set by devs. Players can't influence the LP cost in any way, which is precisely why these ships have such high costs.
The LP cost isn't particularly relevant when it is the players who determine what an acceptable ISK/LP ratio is. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Nefriel Arkori
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Posted - 2009.10.06 20:49:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Nifter Telfo In this case the price is set by devs. Players can't influence the LP cost in any way, which is precisely why these ships have such high costs.
The LP cost isn't particularly relevant when it is the players who determine what an acceptable ISK/LP ratio is.
That's true. I pity the man selling this LP at 500 ISK each.
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2009.10.06 20:51:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Zeba on 06/10/2009 20:53:11
Originally by: Nifter Telfo That's exactly the reason I'm posting this actually. I'm curious whether people consider these ships worthy of their price tag and additional training costs in some cases.
After testing out pretty much every newly redone faction ship I can tell you that yes they will mostly be worth the money if you have the money to spend. In the case of the new navy faction ships well those can be had for only a few mil over the base t1 hull if you know how to get them. Pirate ships are a bit more problematic to get on your own but its still doable if you have some cunning and determination. As far as worth the price that will be asked for in contracts on Dominion day then probably not for the average player but give it a few months for the price to stabilize and they should settle down to a decent price point for moderatly wealthy players to use at will or as a nice station spinner/mission runner for the less than wealthy or plex buyer.
Quote: [03:39:05] Emperor Salazar > HOLY **** ITS ZEBA [03:39:20] Emperor Salazar > NEVER STOP POASTING
Zeba is the BEST! ~Mitnal |
Bo Bojangles
Interstellar eXodus BricK sQuAD.
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Posted - 2009.10.06 20:58:00 -
[28]
You gotta remember that most if not all of these faction ships were available before T2 ships were and so represented the best you could get in their respective hulls for a time. T2 hulls and updates to the game have taken their toll on most of the faction ships to the point where there's not a clear advantage to flying most of them, but I understand that's going to be addressed with this Winter's update which will be very nice.
With that said though, the only one I fly with any regularity is the Stabber Fleet Issue which already received it's update with,.. Quantum Rise was it? Anyway I've grown to where I prefer it over the Vagabond but having flown both I can't say whether one's better than the other but though they're the same hulls, I pvp in them quite differently and so I'd have to say that they fill at least slightly different roles.
Hopefully after the update, all the faction variants will provide viable, attractive alternatives to their T2 counterparts.
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2009.10.06 21:05:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Bo Bojangles Hopefully after the update, all the faction variants will provide viable, attractive alternatives to their T2 counterparts.
I'd say that the pirate ships are slighty better than t2 and the new navy bs and frigs are near or on par with t2 depending on the ship.
Quote: [03:39:05] Emperor Salazar > HOLY **** ITS ZEBA [03:39:20] Emperor Salazar > NEVER STOP POASTING
Zeba is the BEST! ~Mitnal |
Nifter Telfo
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Posted - 2009.10.06 21:08:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Bo Bojangles You gotta remember that most if not all of these faction ships were available before T2 ships were and so represented the best you could get in their respective hulls for a time. T2 hulls and updates to the game have taken their toll on most of the faction ships to the point where there's not a clear advantage to flying most of them, but I understand that's going to be addressed with this Winter's update which will be very nice.
With that said though, the only one I fly with any regularity is the Stabber Fleet Issue which already received it's update with,.. Quantum Rise was it? Anyway I've grown to where I prefer it over the Vagabond but having flown both I can't say whether one's better than the other but though they're the same hulls, I pvp in them quite differently and so I'd have to say that they fill at least slightly different roles.
Hopefully after the update, all the faction variants will provide viable, attractive alternatives to their T2 counterparts.
Awesome post, thanks for the info.
I did not know they were released before T2. That would indeed explain why they aren't the shining stars of this universe anymore.
Being able to get a faction ship for a bit more than the T1 hull? I suppose if someone's stupid enough to sell to the scam contracts then maybe. Unless you consider 20 million more than the rifter to be "a bit" more.
Anyway, thanks for all the input guys. Maybe when I have a bit more spending money I'll buy myself a convertible (aka Comet/Cruor). Definitely not the AN Slicer, man did we get the short end of the stick on that ship's model.
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