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T3 Frigate Discussion - what should they be, what should they not be?

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Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2009.10.09 01:07:00 - [1] First off, this is a PVP oriented discussion. PVE has always been fairly irrelevant in Eve with respect to small details in performance differences with ships. Whether you make 20m ISK an hour vs. 22.65432432 ISK an hour isn't a big deal. Exploding or not exploding is a slightly bigger deal. So, CCP has announced that they plan to bring T3 frigs into the game sometime after Dominion and it will be the next T3 class added to the game. I'd like to hear what everyone thinks about what T3 frigs should add to the game, what they shouldn't, and how CCP can introduce something that is relevant to PVP gameplay without obsoleting entire classes of ships and maintaining a practical design. What lessons do you think CCP has learned through the introduction and development of the T3 cruisers that can be applied to T3 frigs? How will they apply what they've learned to the new ships? Currently the most common T3 configurations I see engaged in PVP are those with big EHP tanks, as much DPS as possible while still maintaining a Covert Ops cloak. So basically, the same generic fits while being cloaky. It's boring but it works. How will T3 frigs end up any different? Does CCP care? Will CCP allow T3 frigs to even have a cloaking subsystem? Frigs are unique because they have so many variants. Cruisers don't have an equivalent for Stealth Bombers or Interceptors for example. Will we see subsystems with similar capabilities in T3 frigs? What about skillpoint loss? Losing 2-5 days every time your frig goes pop is going to get old really quick I would think, in addition to the fact that it's quite a bit more difficult to properly time ejecting out of a frig in comparison to a T3 cruiser. With respect to the art possibilities, what do you think CCP has learned from the existing models and designs? Will the Gallente T3 frig resemble a piece of cat poop similar to the Proteus, only smaller? Or will CCP make the subsystems have a more interesting layout, perhaps a vertical or lateral configuration, or a combination of directions? Currently the subsystems articulate in a linear fashion front to back, with the electronic subsystems either making or breaking the looks of the ship, with the rest of the subsystems doing little to change the overall shape of the ship. I hope CCP has learned a lot from the first implementation and will deliver a more refined product with the introduction of T3 frigs. I await your comments and suggestions. -- Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Tier 5 Battleships
Davinel Lulinvega	Posted - 2009.10.09 01:19:00 - [2] I want the minnie frig to be able to fit an amplification node and have a microscopic sig. Originally by: CCP Tuxford Now the op looks like a weirdo that can't read kekekeke! inb4 stealth edit
Manu Hermanus FaDoyToy	Posted - 2009.10.09 02:23:00 - [3] I really don't ****ing know. but they will have to be cost competitive with t2, likely not completely over power t2. covert ops cloak af/intys? 5km/s stealth bombers? eas that work? covert ops 5km/s bubble launchers? You're posting again!? Has it really been 5 mins?
Amalinze Tehkat Out of Order Cult of War	Posted - 2009.10.09 04:28:00 - [4] Personally, I like the idea of say a 4-subsystem fit, with each subsystem having 4 variants potentially giving a bonus to any of the major roles (Scanning, Tackling, DPS, Ewar). Then set it up so that specializing in one role makes the ship basically unfittable. This would result in a series of mixed weapon system, mixed-role frigates which on their own might underperform compared to their t2 counterparts, but have overall more utility. i.e. T3 frig A is kitted for cloak and tackle, with a heavy tank but light dps, while T3 frig B is a ranged glass cannon fit with maybe only 2 mid and low slots, extreme dps at a distance, and a bonus high with a slight scanning bonus. The t3 frigates individually don't stack up well against t2 frigates in their role of choice, but you need fewer of them to cover the same bases. The aformentioned combination would be more powerful than a covops+af combo, without being "better" than the covops or the AF at what they do. The idea being that a small group of pilots could potentially fit out their gang to cover every angle without needing as many ships to do it, and being able to refit based on what they want. Or maybe none of this makes any sense and I've spent too damned long writing this post already....
Renarla	Posted - 2009.10.09 04:32:00 - [5] If they're similar to T3 cruisers in respect to frigates, I'd gladly pay 30m-40m for one. Probably not much more, though. However, on another note, I now have one of those annoying sigs.
Lilith Velkor Minmatar Beyond Divinity Inc Beyond Virginity	Posted - 2009.10.09 05:03:00 - [6] Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 09/10/2009 05:04:28 Actually, looking at t3 cruisers I dont see the point in t3 frigates. A covert ops combat frigate that is immune to bubbles would be interesting, but given the tendency that maybe 90% of the t3 cruisers around use those specific two subsystems they should probably be excluded this time. Logistics bonused frigates are definitely interesting, as well as warfare link capable frigs would be, but I really dont know. Still, at least would fill a niche that doesnt exist yet. Exploration bonused frigates with combat abilities would probably obsolete covert ops frigs completely, though a bastard child of interceptor, prober and covert ops could have its use. But again, would obsolete a lot of classes. T3 cruisers already were kind of a disappointment already if you ask me (strong tank, ok dps, and combining HAC + recon is nice and all, but not really needed or genuine), they simply lack a purpose.
Nalena Arlath	Posted - 2009.10.09 05:16:00 - [7] Retribution + extra midslot = T3 frigate. Vengeance + functional rockets = T3 frigate. It's really hard to find a new role for ships these days, since most stuff is already covered. Tackling, Ewar, DPS, speed tank, EHP tank et.c. Only way I see to make something with a new role in the game is to add new modules or "effects" that would create a new type of role which would then need to be filled. Though I dunno what that could be. A new type of ewar or new type of effect probably. Cloak "bubbles" to hide your gang or something outside the box like that. Something to scramble your overview, making it show random stuff for a few seconds would really be fun, and of course, annoying. But ewar is always annoying for whoever is in the recieving end. It's extra tough to make a new role for frigates, since they have so many in comparison to most other ship sizes. Within the frigate categories we have: Regular vanilla frigs Assault frigates Interceptors Cov-ops Stealthbombers Ewar frigates Mining frigates (yeah I know, a bit of a stretch :P) Did I miss any? Also within each of those categories, each race covers the different types of engagement tactics and ewar. Drones, dampers, webbers, painters, neuting... all the frigs already in game cover these aspects. To be honest, I would much rather see an overhaul to existing frigates so they might become useful (such as vengeance and hawk just to mention two) rather than adding a whole new line of frigates which most likely will bring about a whole new line of frigs where 1/3 has no role or is simply useless with todays state of the game.
arbiter reborn	Posted - 2009.10.09 06:03:00 - [8] id say, 50m or so, same kinda subs as t3 cruisers, especially dic nullifier and probing ones id love a super covops. minimal sp loss would be preferable as they did say the wanted ppl to actually use them. adding to the looks thing i figured the companies that make/desighned the subs would want there liveries shown, ie black with the ham sub on the legion, zebra stripes on the loki with the harpoint efficiancy one etc, but really i just want that khanid revelation from that background they had
xxxak Caldari No Limit Productions Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.10.09 06:46:00 - [9] Edited by: xxxak on 09/10/2009 06:47:08 Edited by: xxxak on 09/10/2009 06:46:29 I like the idea of a command-frigate that can fit a gang-link. That would be an interesting change. Two or three of those in a larger gang could actually make a fairly large difference, and would be cheaper (I hope) to lose compared to a commandship. Other than that... a bubble-immune "shuttle-mode" frigate would be cool, but would somewhat overpowered as an uber-scout if it could also cloak. I think T3 frigates should be able to choose either cloak OR bubble immune, not both, or no one will ever have any risk in travel anywhere in EVE again...seriously... Maybe also a super fast ship, that can go 7km non-overheat mwd speed but has very little tank or weapons.. a different kind of shuttle/scout. Other than that, a DPS mode frigate and a tank mode frigate with somewhat more performance than an AF would be cool.. but that could make HACs obsolete unless it was pretty expensive... Finally, how about a SMART-BOMB frigate.. able to fit one large smartie. Frankly, its hard to see how T3 frigates wouldnt make HACs obsolete...
BiggestT Caldari Amarrian Retribution	Posted - 2009.10.09 06:58:00 - [10] The only thing I can think of is a cloaking solo platform. It has its own niche without really making other ships obselete. However seeing as there modular and need many roles, I really have no idea what else they cld do (rr/link's? lol dunno) EVE Trivia EVE History
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2009.10.09 07:59:00 - [11] Well, right now people seem focused on the two things that make T3 unique: the nullifier subsystem and the CovOps cloak. Once CCP introduces T3 frigs, and then follows with T3 BCs and BS, will every class get the option to mount a cloaking subsystem? What about nullifier subsystems? I've long held the belief that dictor/HIC bubbles are overpowered and unneeded. That's why we have interceptors, and the HIC is fine with it's focused point but portable bubbles are IMO OP. Anyway, if they allow T3 frigs with cloaks and this continues to T3 BCs and BS, then eventually 90% of all players in lowsec/0.0 will be flying around in fully cloaked fleets. If cloaks are what it takes to survive and be competitive then what is that saying about the game design in general? Right now combat is all about the ambush: cloaked ships, hotdrops, BlackOps cynos and stealth bombers. These are usually the best ways to hide the true strength of your force until the enemy has fully engaged. Anyway, I'm getting off topic. T3 frigs: I think that the offensive subsystems will have to include a subsystem that works in conjunction with a propulsion subsystem for an overall speed bonus similar to an interceptor. Otherwise if the bonus didn't depend on both subsystems then everyone will fit the inty level propulsion system and be done with it. Maybe we could give them cruiser level active tanks? How about Immunity to cap warfare? That's always been one of my favorite concepts- T3 ships having a subsystem that renders their cap invulnerable to any sort of cap warfare. At least then one heavy neut doesn't spell instant death if you're in a smaller ship. I think that a logistics based subsystem would be really cool on frigs, particularly if it had a really good range bonus to where the frigs could orbit at a fair distance from it's gang and stay out of range of larger ships. Maybe that's what T3 frigs should focus on as an overall concept- range, instead of higher peak performance for DPS and such. I also think that a gun-based version of stealth bombers would be pretty cool as well. I don't think this would be too hard to implement, giving a sig res penalty to small or medium guns. Maybe T3 frigs get a really big bonus to overheating? What about some radical off-race weapon combos like drones and missiles for Gallente, lasers and webs for Amarr, rockets and TDs for Minmatar and neuts/guns for Caldari? I think that a missile based damp ship combo would be great for Gallente (assuming they fix damps), as well as a drone based EW ship for Caldari. Maybe we could see some overlap of pirate faction bonuses in the various T3 frig subsystem combos. -- Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Tier 5 Battleships
Suas Perkone	Posted - 2009.10.09 08:14:00 - [12] Originally by: Bellum Eternus I've long held the belief that dictor/HIC bubbles are overpowered and unneeded. That's why we have interceptors, and the HIC is fine with it's focused point but portable bubbles are IMO OP. Look how dumb you are. _________________________ HELLO! My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. PREPARE TO DIE!
Dracoknight Eternal Guardians Corp. The Covenant Alliance	Posted - 2009.10.09 08:24:00 - [13] I rather want T3 destroyers than frigates... ____________________ I wish my Thorax could use missiles...
Sidus Isaacs Gallente	Posted - 2009.10.09 08:27:00 - [14] Originally by: BiggestT The only thing I can think of is a cloaking solo platform. It has its own niche without really making other ships obselete. Cov ops + expanded probe + AF tank/gank frigs seems the only real option for the T3 frigs. While it would be fun, I do not really see the use of T3 frigs all that much. Frigs are primarly tacklers, and good at it. They simply have too little slots and harpoint to be really versatile. I'd much rahter see T3 BSs. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
Forge Lag Jita Lag Preservation Fund	Posted - 2009.10.09 08:33:00 - [15] Edited by: Forge Lag on 09/10/2009 08:32:59 Originally by: Bellum Eternus First off, this is a PVP oriented discussion. PVE has always been fairly irrelevant in Eve with respect to small details in performance differences with ships. Yeah, I am soooo gonna blob next L4. Also are you really calling supercaps a "small detail in performance"? PvE is much more ballanced and it is not coincidence. So this thread is about solo PvP, right? Because that is what matters in EvE. On more constructive note, they will have to be SBs with AF tank or people will complain again.
Free Folen	Posted - 2009.10.09 08:58:00 - [16] I was thinking something like this: Frig: 3 subsystems, death = chance of losing a level Cruiser: 5 subsystems, death = lose 1 level BC: 7 subsystems, death= lose 1 level and chance of a 2nd BS: 9 subsystems, death = lose 2 levels
Lindsay Logan	Posted - 2009.10.09 09:05:00 - [17] Originally by: Forge Lag Edited by: Forge Lag on 09/10/2009 08:32:59 Originally by: Bellum Eternus First off, this is a PVP oriented discussion. PVE has always been fairly irrelevant in Eve with respect to small details in performance differences with ships. Yeah, I am soooo gonna blob next L4. Also are you really calling supercaps a "small detail in performance"? PvE is much more ballanced and it is not coincidence. So this thread is about solo PvP, right? Because that is what matters in EvE. On more constructive note, they will have to be SBs with AF tank or people will complain again. Cov ops + probe + AF tank/gank is also the perfect scout+tackler ship, add inn interdiction nullifier and you got a nasty scout.
ropnes	Posted - 2009.10.09 09:21:00 - [18] A subsystem that gives immunity to nos / neut would be veeeery cool on T3 frigs and would really help set them apart from T1 / T2 ones
Nick Parker Caldari Center For High Times Initiative Mercenaries	Posted - 2009.10.09 09:21:00 - [19] The problem with t3 is it is ok at everything, but overpriced and not a master of anything (aside from running around cloaky and dictor proof. I've found that I like the cruisers for not being setup in a assault role, but a cloaky/scouty/probing/ support ship. Main reason for this is the Price of the ship. Second reason is I am just not pleased with some of the offensive setups you get with them. My own personal gripe. Back on topic. T3 frigs should be viable, and should not make any t2 frigs obsolete. Their price should be similar to a tier 1 BS. Will they recieve the same 5 subsytem layout? Hopefully they will give a few new subsytems for teh t3 frigs and t3 cruisers. One I could imagine is a capacitor sa***aurd system for engineering, that renders it immune to cap warfare, but gives no slots. Better yet, one that renders it immune to neuting but not nossing (I miss nos usage). A heavy nos would trip it for one cycle, but a neut wouldn't flatten it. Another one I could imagine is allied defensive immunity subsystem. Amar and caldari are allied, so Amar would get a 7.5% bonus to Armor thermic damage resistance, while caldari would get a 7.5% bonus to shield explosive damage resistance. minmatar and gallente would get similar resistances. Maybe another good subsystem would be a propulsion subsytem that rendered the t3 cruiser immune to warp scrambling, but not warp disrupting, but gave the ship a low base speed. The biggest thing I would like to see in a t3 frigate would be accessability to everyone. Even after several patches t3 cruisers have a primary target wrote on their hulls and a price tag that is shocking for what you get. If your going to loose real money if you loose one (IE 3-7 days of your account payment is gone retraining a skill from 4 to 5) and loose a stupidly huge amount of ingame currency, why fly one? Aside from the cloaky/dictor proof model, ccp has gave us very little reason to fly one. [url=http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/view/player-Nick%20Parker-kills.html][/url]
Darth Felin	Posted - 2009.10.09 09:38:00 - [20] It is a very interesting that approach will they use for a t3 frigate, because Strategic Cruisers are based on battlecruiser stats not cruiser one. Will they do same thing with t3 frigate?
Nalena Arlath	Posted - 2009.10.09 10:09:00 - [21] Could also just do a complete revamp of all the ships in the game and let all the ships be based around modules like the T3 ships are, with different types of hulls, innate ship bonuses linked with hull et.c. Obviously this is the path they are slowly starting to work towards by adding more T3 type ships to the game, and quite honestly, EVE would be a better game if they had done this from the start. However, we can't turn back time and do it, so hey... just do a freaking revamp right away and chop every ship in the game up into T3's. Sure, everyone will cry blood about their investments and yadayada. At least we can mop up and remove some of the utterly useless ones like Augoror og Vengeance. Or possibly make them functional again? Obviously, after years of complaints against many useless ships, this is never going to change, unless something drastic happens. Full revamp and make every ship in the game have the same mechanic as T3 ships. Fun times can start!
Omar Khayyam Minmatar	Posted - 2009.10.09 10:11:00 - [22] jump frigates ------------------------------------------------ cruisers used to be a great power when i started this game :)
Jagga Spikes Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.10.09 10:22:00 - [23] Originally by: Nalena Arlath ... Full revamp and make every ship in the game have the same mechanic as T3 ships. Fun times can start! oh, yes! gief! honestly, i don't see how else T3 can work. i might shed a tear for some old designs, but the concept of T3 is in conflict with T1-adaptivity vs T2-specalization. T3 feels like mid-step to T4-specialization. question is: can EVE support such diversity of technological levels, except as craving for novelty? even now, there are effectively obsolete T1 designs. do we need more? take a loot at rigs, and how they added to existing ships. imo, that was much better implementation of progress.
Tippia Raddick Explorations Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2009.10.09 11:21:00 - [24] Well, to begin with, it's worth taking a look at what CCP themselves have in mind (from the T3 frig slide at the fanfest presentation): Originally by: Torfi Small Tech 3 Cheap Highly configurable Losing one won't be the end of the world It's also worth considering another thing that was mentioned during one of the presentations: Strategic Cruisers isn't "Tech 3" — it's one cruiser-size implementation of T3. In other words, what the SCs do, and how they work, should not necessarily be considered a template or limitation for what T3 frigs could do and how they would work. The last point, for instance, suggests to me that T3 frigs will not carry the SP-loss-on-death penalty, unlike SCs.
Marko Riva Adamant Inc.	Posted - 2009.10.09 11:32:00 - [25] - EAS with balls - covert with nullifiers But truth be told, I don't see much use for T3 frigs other than bragging rights and being an isk sink (which is why we're having all the new T3 and faction ships obviously, CCP realised that we're becoming too rich and we somehow need to get rid of isk without it being insurable).
Tippia Raddick Explorations Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2009.10.09 11:52:00 - [26] Edited by: Tippia on 09/10/2009 11:52:06 Originally by: Marko Riva CCP realised that we're becoming too rich and we somehow need to get rid of isk without it being insurable). It won't be any more of an ISK sink than T2 ships are, though — less, in fact, since the manufacturing process is less complex. (Note: buying an expensive ship doesn't get rid of ISK — it only transfers it to another person, and doesn't make us any less rich. The only way to get rid of ISK is to buy stuff from NPCs or use NPC services.) ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Laughlyn Vaughns Gallente Lagos-Vaughn Industries	Posted - 2009.10.09 12:18:00 - [27] I like the idea posted about a frig sized command ship, that would be rather interesting. maybe a frig sized force recon ship, like an EAF with cov ops cloak ability kind of thing. i'd like to see a good drone controll option on the gallente cruiser sized T3 tho really
Korell Nova	Posted - 2009.10.09 12:24:00 - [28] t3rigtes wil never be worth it with this skill loss on destruction they are just too flimsy for that drawback
TimMc Gallente Brutal Deliverance	Posted - 2009.10.09 12:29:00 - [29] I don't see the point of t3 frigates. They cannot offer anything interesting while not being overpowered. Also skillpoint loss will be more frequent since its a frigate, and you cannot go any smaller than the current rank 1 skills. Nullifiers on a frigate would just be immortal since, unlike the cruisers, it is completely impossible to catch a frigate as it aligns up unless in a sensor boosted interceptor. There are plenty of t2 frigates, and I don't see any purpose to bringing out t3 ones unless CCP are far more creative than me.
V0lk0	Posted - 2009.10.09 12:35:00 - [30] The T3 frigs will be reintroducing an old combat tactic from WW2, kamikaze pilots! Mind you, I'm using this term literally, your ship is the 40mill isk flying bomb, you cannot launch it in any way. A new type of module will be invented, thats basically a huuuuge bomb you strap onto your ship, a couple of these bad-boys will take out even a faction fitted battleship if they are well coordinated. Carrying such a huge payload on a small ship will of course make them relatively slow though, and the radiation emissions from the bomb will sadly enough make you unable to cloak. High-sec mechanics will make you unable to defend your efficiently, and people will flock to the relative safety of 0.0 or low-sec.. At least they will get to shoot back that way.
Tippia Raddick Explorations Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2009.10.09 12:41:00 - [31] Originally by: Korell Nova t3rigtes wil never be worth it with this skill loss on destruction they are just too flimsy for that drawback Originally by: TimMc Also skillpoint loss will be more frequent since its a frigate, and you cannot go any smaller than the current rank 1 skills. Again, there's nothing that says that they'll have that drawback. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2009.10.09 12:50:00 - [32] Originally by: Free Folen I was thinking something like this: Frig: 3 subsystems, death = chance of losing a level Cruiser: 5 subsystems, death = lose 1 level BC: 7 subsystems, death= lose 1 level and chance of a 2nd BS: 9 subsystems, death = lose 2 levels All these will lead only to 1 thing - t3s will be used in pvp less. Especially for frigs /unless there will be some neut resist sub/. Keep in mind, that not all players who want to fly t3s have 80m+ sp and nothing else to train /for pvp/.
slightly sillydude	Posted - 2009.10.09 13:13:00 - [33] I think t3 frigates are probably a waste of time. I think t3 is kinda meh in general. They are supposed to be all about versatility, but the t3 cruisers all have their one preferred setup and there isn't too much deviation from that. The skill point loss is silly, the cost is silly, and there are plenty of ships in eve already. There is more than enough work to be done fixing existing ships without having to contrive a new role around the idea that you want a new ship.
Tozmeister Digital Fury Corporation	Posted - 2009.10.09 13:26:00 - [34] Jump capable module with ability to use covert cyno fields for me please. Also, EAF's with better tank and gank, and command + logistics module variants. It's been an idea long floating around and is now an actual item in the DB but this would be the perfect platform for the cloak disruptor (a smartbomb style weapon that de-cloaks ships within it's AoE but does no damage.) Here's the item details from the DB dump on chruker Linkage. Another idea, maybe more suited to T3 BS/BC's than frigs really, but AoE buff's similar to gang bonus's but effecting different stats like shield or cap regen, or MWD boost ammount. But only affecting those in range rather than all in the fleet. The T3 frigs could go the other way and have AoE de-buffs, like reduced cap or shield totals, or even the much discussed Area webifier. +++????+++Out of Cheese Error. Redo From Start+++
Nalena Arlath	Posted - 2009.10.09 14:28:00 - [35] T3 Frigates: Assault Interceptor. Stealth Assault Frigate. Cov-Ops Interceptor. Ewar Cov-ops interceptor stealthbomber. Serious buisness.
Darth Felin	Posted - 2009.10.09 15:54:00 - [36] Originally by: Tozmeister Jump capable module with ability to use covert cyno fields for me please. Also, EAF's with better tank and gank, and command + logistics module variants. It's been an idea long floating around and is now an actual item in the DB but this would be the perfect platform for the cloak disruptor (a smartbomb style weapon that de-cloaks ships within it's AoE but does no damage.) Here's the item details from the DB dump on chruker Linkage. Another idea, maybe more suited to T3 BS/BC's than frigs really, but AoE buff's similar to gang bonus's but effecting different stats like shield or cap regen, or MWD boost ammount. But only affecting those in range rather than all in the fleet. The T3 frigs could go the other way and have AoE de-buffs, like reduced cap or shield totals, or even the much discussed Area webifier. AOE devices are bad. They make funny things to the server so I doubt that CCP will change their minds and implement a shipclass for this.
Ace Secunda Aperture Harmonics	Posted - 2009.10.09 17:33:00 - [37] Covert T3 interceptor to tackle for black ops gangs :D 'If I can't blow it up It don't exsist'
Crotch Goblin	Posted - 2009.10.09 17:35:00 - [38] SP loss is still a horrible idea. T3 bs's better be tier 3 variants that do amazing things. T3 frigs cool idea let's hope they don't screw it up.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2009.10.09 18:26:00 - [39] Originally by: Suas Originally by: Bellum Eternus I've long held the belief that dictor/HIC bubbles are overpowered and unneeded. That's why we have interceptors, and the HIC is fine with it's focused point but portable bubbles are IMO OP. Look how dumb you are. HIC and dictor bubbles practically remove the need for dedicated inty pilots during large engagements. Am I wrong? Destroyers were invented to be anti-tackle (anti-inty even) but we rarely see interceptors used in this day and age of fleet combat. It's just dictors and hics that warp in and bubble everything, and then every thing dies, easy peasy. Just because something is easy and simple doesn't make it right. Anyway, in that case, why not have a dictor bubble subsystem or a HIC subsystem on a T3 frig? CCP said 'highly configurable'. Does this mean that subsystems will be swappable between the races? Are we going to get five subsystems this time? Six? Will we be able to configure the slots independently of the ship bonuses? CCP really needs to start thinking about radical departures with ship design if they are going to make T3 frigs fun and interesting to use. Personally, I'm waiting for T3 BS. The big question will be if CCP has the balls to allow a T3 BS to use a CovOps cloak. -- Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Tier 5 Battleships
Suas Perkone	Posted - 2009.10.09 18:40:00 - [40] Edited by: Suas on 09/10/2009 18:42:25 Originally by: Bellum Eternus Originally by: Suas Originally by: Bellum Eternus I've long held the belief that dictor/HIC bubbles are overpowered and unneeded. That's why we have interceptors, and the HIC is fine with it's focused point but portable bubbles are IMO OP. Look how dumb you are. HIC and dictor bubbles practically remove the need for dedicated inty pilots during large engagements. Am I wrong? Destroyers were invented to be anti-tackle (anti-inty even) but we rarely see interceptors used in this day and age of fleet combat. It's just dictors and hics that warp in and bubble everything, and then every thing dies, easy peasy. Just because something is easy and simple doesn't make it right. Anyway, in that case, why not have a dictor bubble subsystem or a HIC subsystem on a T3 frig? CCP said 'highly configurable'. Does this mean that subsystems will be swappable between the races? Are we going to get five subsystems this time? Six? Will we be able to configure the slots independently of the ship bonuses? CCP really needs to start thinking about radical departures with ship design if they are going to make T3 frigs fun and interesting to use. Personally, I'm waiting for T3 BS. The big question will be if CCP has the balls to allow a T3 BS to use a CovOps cloak. You're not just wrong, you're plain dumb. Tacklers are still used in 0.0 gangs, when you sit around in slaved BS in lowsec all day long you may not know that. Not to mention the fact that there would be no way to keep fleets on the field if it weren't for bubbles - do you want fleets to bring one tackling ship for every hostile BS on the field? You...I...I'm simply at a loss for words concerning how incompetent you are. And yes, let's completely remove bubbles so that every ship that fits a cloak (doesn't even have to be Covert) and MWD is completely invincible in all of EVE! That is a great idea, great work Bellum! You have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to 0.0 PvP, so don't talk. Infact, just stop posting. Edit: "The balls" to let T3 BS use a CovOps Cloak? How is that in any way "ballsy" as opposed to "FRICKIN' STUPID"? Yes, let's give BS Covert Ops cloaks. You have to be kidding, no one is honestly this delusional - are they? _________________________ HELLO! My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. PREPARE TO DIE!
Escobar Noreaga Amarr F.R.E.E. Explorer Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.10.09 19:01:00 - [41] Originally by: Dracoknight I rather want T3 destroyers than frigates... yeah going t3 frigs is most likely a bad idea imho, frigs arent really made for much more then tackle or fast traveling. now t3 destroyers is a good idea, they have much more room for changing visually and we can finally end the ongoing plauge of "when is the destroyer going to get a defined role" questions that have been popping up on the forums for as long as i can remember. if we based destroyers off current t3 and a 4 subsystem model, and if they were also similar in purpose it would be a definite boost to that ship class and the most logical step instead of frigs which are for the most part already "balanced" and have defined roles i would also go as far as to say that would include almost all of the AF's. T3 Destroyers is the way to go. ________
Kail Storm Caldari	Posted - 2009.10.09 19:01:00 - [42] IMO T3 frigs are going to be the most challenging for ccp to balance for PVP, if you make them like the T3 cruiser you are basically making them be a great ship with all the agility and speed as its class and all the tank/gank as its biger brothers the bc`s. T3 frigs if they follow suit will have t1 cruiser dps while having greater speed agility...Honestly besides PVE which we cant ignore is a huge part of eve I dont see the T3 Frig having a defined role. They honestly have the Frig and cruiser`s covered between t2..They should have just made all the in betwees t3 like Dessy/BC Those ships need a place a T3 dessy would be amazing and could hang in fights with Hacs but why make a T3 thats super excpensive when you cant in good faith make them hang with the more exp way higher sp needed HAcs. Basically T3 frigs will be just PVE plex dominators. But I see the same probs with AF`s now having the same probs with t3 frigs. Af`s cant do enough dps to matter in fleet fights and are expensive as 2 cruisers so why not just use cruisers. 1 cool thing would be maybe a Hybrid bomber, like a bomber with great tank? It still would get Ganked by cruisers dps but it could at least be able to defend it self for long periods. Basicall CCP needs to make t3 rigs for plexs and t3 Dessys for PVP and make t3 dessy as powerful as a hac, with similiar price. But T3 frig=To much isk for pvp vs DMG vs Tank vs being fair to other ships that take longer to get in, as if now my tengu outclasses the nighthawk in almost all things could you imagine if a T3 frig outclassed HAcs in all things? A ship that took 45 days to get into vs a 80-100 day ship to really fly and still have it beat like the command ships in PVP etc If you run, You`ll only die tired :)
Tozmeister Digital Fury Corporation	Posted - 2009.10.09 19:02:00 - [43] Originally by: Darth Felin AOE devices are bad. They make funny things to the server so I doubt that CCP will change their minds and implement a shipclass for this. Maybe, but SB bombs, POS forcefields and warp disruption fields,bubbles and probes are all AoE devices and I don't see them being removed. HIC's and Titans are both shipclasses with AoE devices implemented. I know DD's are getting changed to a direct weapon but I've not seen a listed reason for the change as the server suffering from a dose of 'funny things'. +++????+++Out of Cheese Error. Redo From Start+++
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2009.10.09 20:42:00 - [44] Originally by: Suas You're not just wrong, you're plain dumb. Tacklers are still used in 0.0 gangs, when you sit around in slaved BS in lowsec all day long you may not know that. Not to mention the fact that there would be no way to keep fleets on the field if it weren't for bubbles - do you want fleets to bring one tackling ship for every hostile BS on the field? You...I...I'm simply at a loss for words concerning how incompetent you are. And yes, let's completely remove bubbles so that every ship that fits a cloak (doesn't even have to be Covert) and MWD is completely invincible in all of EVE! That is a great idea, great work Bellum! You have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to 0.0 PvP, so don't talk. Infact, just stop posting. Edit: "The balls" to let T3 BS use a CovOps Cloak? How is that in any way "ballsy" as opposed to "FRICKIN' STUPID"? Yes, let's give BS Covert Ops cloaks. You have to be kidding, no one is honestly this delusional - are they? I like how you continually revert to personal attacks to enforce your point of view. I didn't say 'all bubbles should be removed'. Static deployable bubbles are fine. I'm saying remove the 'insta-bubbles' that are dictor bubbles and HIC bubbles. Am I suggesting that fleets bring 'one tackler for every target'? Yes, exactly. Is this more difficult? Yes. Is it better than the instant 'tackle the entire enemy fleet with a few bubbles?' Probably. But again, this is getting off track of the OP. I fly in 0.0 plenty. I know exactly what the modern fleet fight in Eve looks like and how the mechanics work. It's dictors and HICs and lots of them, with fewer support dedicated to tackling with inties and even fewer dedicated to killing them. Cloaked dictors are almost impossible to defend against. How are you supposed to recon a gate and think 'ok, no bubble up, I'll proceed' and then as you warp your ship in, or indeed, even uncloak to enter warp from the opposite gate, their scout notifies the dictor pilot to uncloak and pop a bubble? Bubbling removes all of the balance between ship sizes and the ratio of scan res and sig res with respect to locking times etc. So don't presume to tell me that I'm 'dumb' and that I don't know what I'm talking about, Mr. 'I'm hiding behind an NPC alt to post with'. Just because I prefer lowsec over 0.0 doesn't mean I don't have any experience in 0.0. Quite the opposite. I fly in lowsec because I have a tremendous amount of 0.0 experience, and I don't care for it. -- Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Tier 5 Battleships
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2009.10.09 20:50:00 - [45] Originally by: Tozmeister Originally by: Darth Felin AOE devices are bad. They make funny things to the server so I doubt that CCP will change their minds and implement a shipclass for this. Maybe, but SB bombs, POS forcefields and warp disruption fields,bubbles and probes are all AoE devices and I don't see them being removed. HIC's and Titans are both shipclasses with AoE devices implemented. I know DD's are getting changed to a direct weapon but I've not seen a listed reason for the change as the server suffering from a dose of 'funny things'. Favorite goon lag tactic: have everyone hop in destroyers with 8x small smartbombs and then warp onto grid and activate. All those AOE weapons doing hit checks vs. every single other target on the grid: instant dead node. All AOE systems in Eve should be minimized as much as possible due to this mathematical process. -- Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Tier 5 Battleships
Aurorae Andromedae	Posted - 2009.10.09 21:07:00 - [46] Originally by: V0lk0 Edited by: V0lk0 on 09/10/2009 12:36:43 The T3 frigs will be reintroducing an old combat tactic from WW2, kamikaze pilots! This is EVE Online. Not Call of Duty 2. This is SCIFI and it has nothing to do with WW1, WW2 or WW3, or if we are lucky, with WW4...
Manu Hermanus FaDoyToy	Posted - 2009.10.09 21:09:00 - [47] Originally by: Suas You're not just wrong, you're plain dumb. Tacklers are still used in 0.0 gangs, when you sit around in slaved BS in lowsec all day long you may not know that. Not to mention the fact that there would be no way to keep fleets on the field if it weren't for bubbles - do you want fleets to bring one tackling ship for every hostile BS on the field? You...I...I'm simply at a loss for words concerning how incompetent you are. [/b]! You have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to 0.0 PvP, so don't talk. Infact, just stop posting. Edit: "The balls" to let T3 BS use a CovOps Cloak? How is that in any way "ballsy" as opposed to "FRICKIN' STUPID"? Yes, let's give BS Covert Ops cloaks. You have to be kidding, no one is honestly this delusional - are they? why keep their fleet on the field, the bs are insurable enough that the loss won't hurt anyways. let em warp off and just destroy their <whatever it is you are going to kill> You're posting again!? Has it really been 5 mins?
Aurorae Andromedae	Posted - 2009.10.09 21:19:00 - [48] Edited by: Aurorae Andromedae on 09/10/2009 21:20:12 Originally by: Bellum Eternus First off, this is a PVP oriented discussion. PVE has always been fairly irrelevant in Eve with respect to small details in performance differences with ships. Whether you make 20m ISK an hour vs. 22.65432432 ISK an hour isn't a big deal. Exploding or not exploding is a slightly bigger deal. So, CCP has announced that they plan to bring T3 frigs into the game sometime after Dominion and it will be the next T3 class added to the game. I'd like to hear what everyone thinks about what T3 frigs should add to the game, what they shouldn't, and how CCP can introduce something that is relevant to PVP gameplay without obsoleting entire classes of ships and maintaining a practical design. What lessons do you think CCP has learned through the introduction and development of the T3 cruisers that can be applied to T3 frigs? How will they apply what they've learned to the new ships? Currently the most common T3 configurations I see engaged in PVP are those with big EHP tanks, as much DPS as possible while still maintaining a Covert Ops cloak. So basically, the same generic fits while being cloaky. It's boring but it works. How will T3 frigs end up any different? Does CCP care? Will CCP allow T3 frigs to even have a cloaking subsystem? Frigs are unique because they have so many variants. Cruisers don't have an equivalent for Stealth Bombers or Interceptors for example. Will we see subsystems with similar capabilities in T3 frigs? What about skillpoint loss? Losing 2-5 days every time your frig goes pop is going to get old really quick I would think, in addition to the fact that it's quite a bit more difficult to properly time ejecting out of a frig in comparison to a T3 cruiser. With respect to the art possibilities, what do you think CCP has learned from the existing models and designs? Will the Gallente T3 frig resemble a piece of cat poop similar to the Proteus, only smaller? Or will CCP make the subsystems have a more interesting layout, perhaps a vertical or lateral configuration, or a combination of directions? Currently the subsystems articulate in a linear fashion front to back, with the electronic subsystems either making or breaking the looks of the ship, with the rest of the subsystems doing little to change the overall shape of the ship. I hope CCP has learned a lot from the first implementation and will deliver a more refined product with the introduction of T3 frigs. I await your comments and suggestions. Useless, and not in wide usage, untill CCP takes off the skill lost when T3 ship is lost. Absolutely nobody in EVE, especially under 50 M SP characters, DON'T WANT TO USE REST OF THEIR EVE CAREER ON TRAINING THE SAME SKILL SET AT LVL4-5... It's stupid idea, only thing currently in game wich is absolutely idiotic. With T3 frigates this will increase, as old interceptor pilot in large alliance, I can assure you that you will lose MULTIPLE ships daily. And T3 right now, cruiser class, is only usefull over T2 when your subsystem skills ARE OVER LVL3... All of you can check that out with EFT or any fitting tool. That's the main issue.
De Guantanamo	Posted - 2009.10.09 21:32:00 - [49] Originally by: Bellum Eternus I didn't say 'all bubbles should be removed'. Static deployable bubbles are fine. I'm saying remove the 'insta-bubbles' that are dictor bubbles and HIC bubbles. Am I suggesting that fleets bring 'one tackler for every target'? Yes, exactly. Is this more difficult? Yes. Is it better than the instant 'tackle the entire enemy fleet with a few bubbles?' Probably. But again, this is getting off track of the OP. I fly in 0.0 plenty. I know exactly what the modern fleet fight in Eve looks like and how the mechanics work. It's dictors and HICs and lots of them, with fewer support dedicated to tackling with inties and even fewer dedicated to killing them. yeah... I've always thought you were a pretty horrible poster, but usually you at least make sense to some degree but this just shows how **ing stupid you really are fleet fights without dictors launching bubbles...that has to be the dumbest thing I've ever read on these forums. Quote:** Just because I prefer lowsec over 0.0 doesn't mean I don't have any experience in 0.0. no its your horrible ideas that show you have no experience in 0.0 as for the cov ops T3 battleship thing...really?
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2009.10.09 21:41:00 - [50] Originally by: De Guantanamo Originally by: Bellum Eternus I didn't say 'all bubbles should be removed'. Static deployable bubbles are fine. I'm saying remove the 'insta-bubbles' that are dictor bubbles and HIC bubbles. Am I suggesting that fleets bring 'one tackler for every target'? Yes, exactly. Is this more difficult? Yes. Is it better than the instant 'tackle the entire enemy fleet with a few bubbles?' Probably. But again, this is getting off track of the OP. I fly in 0.0 plenty. I know exactly what the modern fleet fight in Eve looks like and how the mechanics work. It's dictors and HICs and lots of them, with fewer support dedicated to tackling with inties and even fewer dedicated to killing them. yeah... I've always thought you were a pretty horrible poster, but usually you at least make sense to some degree but this just shows how **ing stupid you really are fleet fights without dictors launching bubbles...that has to be the dumbest thing I've ever read on these forums. Quote:** Just because I prefer lowsec over 0.0 doesn't mean I don't have any experience in 0.0. no its your horrible ideas that show you have no experience in 0.0 as for the cov ops T3 battleship thing...really? LOL, kids these days (in Eve). How do you think fleet fights worked before all the easy mode toys like dictors and HICs? You people (the ones who can't imagine a game without them) are idiots. Everyone got along just fine without easymode bubbles. I guess you're just showing your lack of experience and seat time with Eve. Similar to someone who's never known a world without cell phones or email. You just fail miserably. -- Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Tier 5 Battleships
De Guantanamo	Posted - 2009.10.09 21:44:00 - [51] Edited by: De Guantanamo on 09/10/2009 21:44:19 -laughs and calls other people childish -pretends to know everything -makes personal attacks that have no bearing on the argument -is an idiot just keep postin bro
Nye Mu	Posted - 2009.10.09 23:35:00 - [52] To be honest, the only thing that I would want a new frigate to do (T3 or T2, either) is logistics...this is what I feel is lacking from the frigate line-up. We have lots of frigates that make things go boom or help make things go boom (by finding, holding or whatever), so why not have a frigate that stops other frigates going boom... Logistics frigate in a AF gang would be so much fun! Would need a lot of player skill to make work so it would be good for experienced players but without the long skill requirements current logistic cruisers needs so new players could get in on the action soon as well. Just a random thought.
Marko Riva Adamant Inc.	Posted - 2009.10.09 23:41:00 - [53] ships got increased agility and HP, hence bubbles. Static bubbles make for static "tower defense" and the defense against a bubble that just dropped is either speed or being able (due to shiptype, strategy/setup, scouting and FCing) to deal with whatever happens after the bubble drop. If you do things properly then bubbles are a nuisance, nothing more. A BS+covops idea is so silly I won't even comment on it.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2009.10.09 23:47:00 - [54] Originally by: Nye Mu To be honest, the only thing that I would want a new frigate to do (T3 or T2, either) is logistics...this is what I feel is lacking from the frigate line-up. We have lots of frigates that make things go boom or help make things go boom (by finding, holding or whatever), so why not have a frigate that stops other frigates going boom... Logistics frigate in a AF gang would be so much fun! Would need a lot of player skill to make work so it would be good for experienced players but without the long skill requirements current logistic cruisers needs so new players could get in on the action soon as well. Just a random thought. I think this is one of the more interesting options as well. Small, fast, light and having excellent remote rep range would be a very cool addition to the game. -- Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Tier 5 Battleships
Yonos GK inc.	Posted - 2009.10.10 01:42:00 - [55] bellum o/ !! ya, t3 has been disappointing so far. I use a cloaky/artillery/bubble nullifier loki to kill ratters when I am bored. I wish they would un-nerf subsystems like the remote rep bonus subsystem, which only gives bonus to amount and not range (fail). Cloaking logistics ships anyone? frigates seem like a waste of time
HankMurphy Minmatar Pelennor Swarm THE KLINGONS	Posted - 2009.10.10 01:48:00 - [56] Originally by: Nye Mu Logistics frigate ---------- Hey, sewer rat may taste like pumpkin pie, but I'd never know 'cause I wouldn't eat the filthy mother*****r
Kadoes Khan	Posted - 2009.10.10 04:29:00 - [57] My thoughts... not well fleshed out atm but whatever. 1) Logistics Frigates - Faster more mobile logistics, capable of supporting smaller gangs. 2) Anti-Ewar Frigates - Provide AoE ECCM, tracking links and sensor boosting 3) Command Frigates - Gang link capable and very durable ships(likely restricted to 1 ganglink) 4) Anti-CovOps Frigates - Capable of probing down and disabling cloaks on grid(incl CovOps ones)... this would likely take noticably longer than normal probing. 5) Anti-Bubble Frigates - Equipped with mods that can prevent dictors from launching bubbles as well as disabling ones already up. -=^=- "Someday the world will recognize the genius in my insanity."
MrWenceslas	Posted - 2009.10.10 04:36:00 - [58] Why not make a subsystem that is drone specific (again)? Only this time, you have no need of actually equipping drones, but can select what type of drones you need, and have 5 of them come out. Basically, an unlimited number of drones (though you can only use 5 @ a time). If you fit this subsystem, you basically don't get much in terms of high slots for added DPS from your ship. Let it be heavily tanked and just use drones to end someone. Would reduce cost of drones, while letting the ship be versatile using all the different types of drones, and attack all sizes of ships. Can use 5 sentries, 5 heavies, etc. So basically, max bandwidth.
Darthewok Caldari	Posted - 2009.10.10 05:33:00 - [59] let T3 frigs be no more powerful than an inty, cov ops or stealth bomber. otherwise that would unbalance the game. however, let them be able to switch modes eg. from inty/cov ops/stealth bomber to inty/cov ops/stealth bomber. the mode switch should take about a minute and leave them vulnerable so they have to switch modes not in battle, which would be too much of an advantage. eg. a stiletto/cheetah/hound anyone? probably it would be a cool thing to fly without being too much of an overpowering thing. my 2 ISK anyway.
Tozmeister Digital Fury Corporation	Posted - 2009.10.10 07:35:00 - [60] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Favorite goon lag tactic: have everyone hop in destroyers with 8x small smartbombs and then warp onto grid and activate. All those AOE weapons doing hit checks vs. every single other target on the grid: instant dead node. All AOE systems in Eve should be minimized as much as possible due to this mathematical process. Bit of an extreme case there, and who's going to be using mass ranks of expensive T3 frigs as lag generators? So nobody's actually opposed to AoE effects and devices in principal, It just needs some optimizing on the source code. +++????+++Out of Cheese Error. Redo From Start+++
Hiroshima Jita	Posted - 2009.10.10 09:49:00 - [61] Personally all I can think of is the logistic frigate and the cloaky warpy bubbler. All other niches are filled satisfactory. And while I contend fiercely that bubbles are hugely important in 0.0 I don't think a cloaky warping bubbler is neccesarily a good thing at all. I persoanlly think we will see a slew of nerf stealthbomber threads and sb are op threads in the next 6 months. I'm waiting for t3 BS so I can pay 2bil+ isk for the privilege of fitting a gangmod to one.
Artemis Rose Sileo In Pacis	Posted - 2009.10.10 10:08:00 - [62] I'm really guessing they would will be for the mini professions that do not have a specialist ship already. Hacking Salvaging Gas Harvesting Etc. Etc. Etc. In terms of combat, combat frigates aren't really affected by bubbles all that much and the last thing the game really needs is more cloaky/warpy ships that pack a relatively weak punch. As much as I'd hate to see it, the only real way you could set apart the T3 frigate class for pure combat would be a resistance to neuting. Possibily as well, command ship frigates that provide DIFFERENT bonuses than the current commandships. *** Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine, Self Banstick +2 WTB: +666 E-peen killboard stats
Darthewok Caldari	Posted - 2009.10.10 10:37:00 - [63] Edited by: Darthewok on 10/10/2009 10:40:09 Or give T3 Frigs something like 8/6/8 high/mid/low slots but the ability to only use 4/3/4 (3 turrets/launchers) at a time and only enough CPU and PG to have to make choices what to online. (no cap requirements to online/offline slots but a 40 second time requirement). In other words, a frig which can fit cyno, probe launcher & bomb launcher but can only online one of them at a time (40 seconds to change) and can switch between a tackle inty fit to a combat inty fit and between an MWD fit and an AB fit. (40 seconds to change) The 40 seconds is so that the frig can't just change slots in combat (too powerful). However, it can look at potential prey on the scanner and at a safespot, switch to its best fit to attack/tackle it. Voila! High-tech configurable frig in keeping with the Lego mindset of T3. But it won't be more powerful than an inty/stealth bomber/cov ops. Its advantage is simply being able to adapt to combat situations at safespots beforehand without docking. hmm just some thoughts...
Troubadour The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.10.10 11:13:00 - [64] There are already enough frigates and frigate classes that people don't use. electronic attack ships are a good example. I think they shouldn't bother with t3 frigs until it's shown that CCP can make frigates more then pieces of paper that go fast and point things without creating an overpowered gimmick like the stealthbomber (which went from useless to useless except in one situation). CCP should focus on changing some of the stats on the current t3 cruiser subs and perhaps adding a 5th, and then a T3 BC and BS class would be nice. Maybe a T3 dessy class would be pretty cool as well.
Eli Porter Amarr Altruism.	Posted - 2009.10.10 11:33:00 - [65] I'd imagine they'd be like combat capable covert ops ships. Toughest ship to catch in the game. Can warp through bubbles, can warp cloaked, and has the Ceptor level speed, agility, and sig to get out of tough situations. All that with the potential of tanking and DPS ability of the Assault Frigs. Of course you can't have all of the above, just like T3 cruisers, and you decide what you want more of.
Nalena Arlath	Posted - 2009.10.10 12:39:00 - [66] Seeing some ship types for the mini professions like salvaging and such would be nice. Though they wouldn't really be T3 ships, just additions to T1 and T2. Just like we have astrio frig for scanning, add a ship with bonus to salvaging, hacking, et.c. More or less like a type of science ship. No guns and crap, just scan probing and scanning equipment. Maybe some drones for defense? I think that would be nicer than a whole bunch of T3 frigs.
Eli Porter Amarr Altruism.	Posted - 2009.10.10 12:47:00 - [67] I think we and CCP would all agree that more subsystems should come out in later expansions. Fun stuff like Rig bonuses, Salvaging bonuses and even Smartbomb bonuses would work well on T3 Cruisers just as well as T3 Frigs.
ropnes	Posted - 2009.10.10 12:57:00 - [68] Make a subsystem that adds passive armor reconstruction
Radcjk Caldari Failed Diplomacy	Posted - 2009.10.10 14:23:00 - [69] I think part of T3 that alot of people seemed to have missed is that it wasn't supposed to be the be-all, end-all ship. Every time a newb hits the forums and asks "What shipz is best types everz!?!11!" they all get the same response. There isn't one / Eve has no end game ship. So why are people upset that T3 hasn't come out as solopwnmobiles, especially after CCP stated they didn't want to see large amounts of ships as such ? (Gallente CS nerf, old ecm / nos nerf, nano nerf, etc...) T3 is based around flexibility. Witch exception to the interdiction nullifier module, anything a Tengu can do a Cerberus / Eagle (lol)/ Falcon / Basilisk / Drake / Vulture can do better. The same applies for the other races Strategic Cruisers. They are not the uber-boat you are looking for. T3 is about flexability, which is admittedly offset by the damn price of the ships and modules but that isn't the major case and point at the moment. T3 is about only having to drag one ship, vice 3-5, out into the great unknown and being able to use carriers or POS's or outposts to restructure it towards your current needs. Need a ganbk boat ? Refit it. Need a prober / scout / recon ? Refit it. Need an e-war plat form, or a bait tanker ? Refit it. It does all of these, but none of them as well as a specialized T2 platform. That said I have no bloody idea how the frigates will come out in relation to PvP, but liek the cruisers a SP loss at ship destruction coupled with cost to effectiveness / survivability ratio probably means they wont be overly common for some time.
Seringol Gallente	Posted - 2009.10.10 15:14:00 - [70] Things Id like to see T3 Frigs provide.. I really want a Frigate sized logistics boat, Command Bonus boat, and an immunity to EWar/Webs. Not at the same time, and set it up so we have to make choices on it. Do I want CovOps Cloak or a Bonus out? Am I tackling, do I need the Anti EWar piece? Will I have enough tank if I take it? Id love for T3 to be competitively priced enough that having a T3 Cruiser/Frig fleet is something completely viable and worth having, and that it could be completely rounded by being able to bring everything you would normally need. Especially if the T3 Cruisers are the ones bringing the big fight, and the Frigs take care of all the EWar/Logistics needs. And thats fairly cut and dry, now merge that fully capable fleet with a T1/T2 and who/what do you call primary? What is the biggest threat? I like the idea of downsizing the fleet fights, sorry. Let me bring the fight how I want while being 1/4 the size and price. Also, I hope that if you have the skills for Cruiser T3 you wont need to buy and train more for Frig. Also, no SP Loss.
Gallente Citizen1	Posted - 2009.10.10 15:27:00 - [71] I'd like to see more rock-paper-scisors in this game. Makes much more diverse team game. So i'd like to see subsystem that allows easy fitting of medium guns. Frigate size ship really needs something special to survive and with SP loss on ship destruction T3 is screaming for a imba feature! --> Allow customization of the ship on the fly! Example: Shield optimization subsystem, Allows pilot to adjust shield natural resistances. Has 50 resistance points to move around anywhere he wants. Kinda like scripts Reactor optimization subsystem, Allows pilot to specifically adjust where the power is directed. Adds 40% to either ship velocity, capacitor or shield recharge Hull optimization subsystem, Allows pilot to adjust fysiological elements of hull and armor. Adds 40% to either ship armor repair amount, hull resistances or -40% ship mass. (tiny note here, i don't know exactly how ship mass works and how big percent is too much)
Terranid Meester Tactical Assault and Recon Unit	Posted - 2009.10.10 15:32:00 - [72] I think a cov ops sub-system might be a decent idea, if you want to create a cov ops af for example. Drone subsystems for an interceptor completely dependent on drones? I think instead of an interdiction nulifier, a warp strength bonus sub-system (+5 warp strength) might be a good replacement and then you can combine that with a cov ops sub-system. Rocket sub-system and a bonus to cap sub-system so that neutralisers do not do as much damage. Signature radius subsystem? Module duration bonus subsystem. List goes on :P
Doctor Cal'torien	Posted - 2009.10.10 16:01:00 - [73] T3 Stealthbombers fitting 2 bomb launchers... bad idea but would eb a hell of a lot of fun
Madner Kami Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2009.10.11 02:53:00 - [74] Originally by: Radcjk I think part of T3 that alot of people seemed to have missed is that it wasn't supposed to be the be-all, end-all ship. Every time a newb hits the forums and asks "What shipz is best types everz!?!11!" they all get the same response. There isn't one / Eve has no end game ship. So why are people upset that T3 hasn't come out as solopwnmobiles, especially after CCP stated they didn't want to see large amounts of ships as such ? (Gallente CS nerf, old ecm / nos nerf, nano nerf, etc...) I doubt people are upset because they're no solopwnmobiles. I think people are upset by the high price, the skillloss and the lack in effectiveness. "A lack in effectiveness?" you ask? Aye, a lack in effectiveness. How so? Well, let me explain it with your own words: Originally by: Radcjk T3 is based around flexibility. It's based around flexibility. But what does flexibility mean in a game, where specialization usually is the best thing to do? What does flexibility mean in a game, where you can basically only change your ship's layout at a predictable place, like a starbase or a POS (correct me, if I'm wrong, but you can't reconfigure them even with a carrier around). What does your flexibility help you, if you have to carry your number of subsystems around in your own cargohold, both increasing the cost of the loss as well as gimping the cargohold available for ammo, loot and whatever? Imagine a Transformer, that has to drive into a garage to transform and has to carry spare parts around with it in his caravan... The praised flexibility of T3 is cool, no doubt, but it's worth nothing once the ship is launched from the docking-ring. In most cases you'll end up with a gimped ship, that tries to fill a role, which it is not supposed to be superb at. Once the ship's launched it is fixed to a role and that's a flaw of the design, because the whole concept of T3-ships is to not fill a role or be able to switch your role on-the-fly. Just look on the market. There are a few T3s around, that are quite praised, but what do they and the praised setups do? They fullfill a role of a T1 or T2 ship, but are better at it or fullfill the role in a slightly different approach or even out some nuisances on the usually used T1/T2 ship (slot-layout, stat-layout and bonus-combinations come to mind) or take on the only "role" that is available to T3 exclusively: Cloaky-Bubble-Avoider. On the other hand, we have T3s around, that are beeing scolded for their very existence, because they can do "nothing", not even the T3-exclusive role without beeing gimped into oblivion (Legion comes to mind - most fits are simply terrible, although there're some good ones around, but other ships can usually do it better). The whole concept of T3 is interesting, if not even totally awesome, but they can not fullfill that concept at the moment, really. Originally by: Radcjk Witch exception to the interdiction nullifier module, anything a Tengu can do a Cerberus / Eagle (lol)/ Falcon / Basilisk / Drake / Vulture can do better. The same applies for the other races Strategic Cruisers. They are not the uber-boat you are looking for. The whole gaming-concept of EVE is about taking on a role and specialization. T3 tries to break that paradigm, but is simply caught in a universe where you're close to nothing without focusing on a role or specialization. The concept is great, yet the implementation is flawed.
Madner Kami Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2009.10.11 03:09:00 - [75] Originally by: Radcjk T3 is about flexability, which is admittedly offset by the damn price of the ships and modules but that isn't the major case and point at the moment. T3 is about only having to drag one ship, vice 3-5, out into the great unknown and being able to use carriers or POS's or outposts to restructure it towards your current needs. Need a ganbk boat ? Refit it. Need a prober / scout / recon ? Refit it. Need an e-war plat form, or a bait tanker ? Refit it. Refit? Sure, why not. Let me dock at that Starbase over there, move my other subsystems to the hangar, reconfigure and refit my ship, pack the whole fuzz into the cargohold again and fly out. So where is this revolutionary? It's exactly as having a freighter/industrial/carrier around, dock, jump into another ship and do whatever you want to do after undocking. Moreso, most T3 combinations will not be able to do anything as good as a T2 ship. What T3 effectively managed to do is, it lowered the needed cargo-capacity to carry different shiptypes around. How overwhelimingly usefull in it's current incarnation... Originally by: Radcjk It does all of these, but none of them as well as a specialized T2 platform. If something else can do the job better, then you'd take that somethign else. It's easy as that. T3 would have to offer some sort of compensation for beeing a Jack-of-all-Trades, but where is that compensation? Don't tell me you see docking up and refitting a ship as a compensation, because I can do that with a Dominix or a Myrmidon just as well... Moreso, even cheaper that way... Ok, they won't have those more or less 10 specialized bonuses like the T3 would have but hey, seems like at least the Domi still outdoes any T3 in general acceptance. I wonder why... T3 really needs an overhaul to actually be versatile. One important part is to be changeable on the fly, without needing to dock or carry spare modules around. Else T3 simply acts too much like any other ship ingame.
Eli Porter Amarr Altruism.	Posted - 2009.10.11 03:14:00 - [76] If you have any solid suggestions for T3 subsystems feel free to post them at this thread
Zilberfrid	Posted - 2009.10.11 10:12:00 - [77] I, for one, really like the udea. There is a proteus, you cannot safely assume it has one specific role, even less so than regular ships. Similarely you can work with t3 frigs, there is a frig, you do not know wether it's a passable interceptor, ewar ship, speed fitted ship or the like. Another subsystem I'd like to see is a skin changing module: You activate it with a script, and towards normal scanners it looks like a ship of that type (up to a sensible maximum, for instance cruiser when you are frigate) This also increases signature to that ship. Ship scanners of course would void this. This would further the insecurety what you are facing.
Helicity Boson Amarr The Python Cartel.	Posted - 2009.10.11 11:10:00 - [78] I want a command frig that fits a single gang link. I dont care if people think that is balanced or not My noobish Khanid Pirate blog: http://helicityboson.blogspot.com/
Gneeznow Minmatar Ship spinners inc	Posted - 2009.10.11 12:00:00 - [79] AF type combat abilities + survivability and ewar subsystems and VERY LONG range jump drives hell yea
Lijhal Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2009.10.11 13:47:00 - [80] Edited by: Lijhal on 11/10/2009 13:48:43 i for one dont like the idea about t3 frigs b/c frigs, or to be clarify the base hull of a frig, isnt supposed to be the jack-@ss of all trades! what should a t3 frig do? do more dps than an AF? do more speed than an inty ? do more ew than an EAF ? salvaging-, smartbomb- and covert ops boat with 25au/sec and 400dps @ 30km? if they'll ever hit tq, we'll see threads like "damn ccp, my t3 frig cannot kill a tech1 bs" and so on ... I for one strongly believe, that tech3 battleships should be the next step in LEGO, no friggin frig base hull, no bc hull, only cruiser and bs's ... and then maybe in the near future (soon tm) t3 capitals long story short: NO for t3 frigs
Doctor Cal'torien	Posted - 2009.10.11 15:41:00 - [81] Originally by: Kadoes Khan My thoughts... not well fleshed out atm but whatever. 1) Logistics Frigates - Faster more mobile logistics, capable of supporting smaller gangs. 2) Anti-Ewar Frigates - Provide AoE ECCM, tracking links and sensor boosting 3) Command Frigates - Gang link capable and very durable ships(likely restricted to 1 ganglink) 4) Anti-CovOps Frigates - Capable of probing down and disabling cloaks on grid(incl CovOps ones)... this would likely take noticably longer than normal probing. 5) Anti-Bubble Frigates - Equipped with mods that can prevent dictors from launching bubbles as well as disabling ones already up. this
Overqueen Caldari	Posted - 2009.10.11 15:46:00 - [82] I would like to see a T3 frigate with an Offensive variant that has Marauder-type abilities. Give it 4 high slots but 2 weapons, with double the range and damage. Add a tractor beam and a salvager and it would make a very interesting ship for both PvP and PvE combats.
Kingwood Amarr Hello Kitty Pyjama Piwates Global Disorder	Posted - 2009.10.12 20:47:00 - [83] Edited by: Kingwood on 12/10/2009 20:47:52 No use arguing with CCP about what T3 frigs should and should not be. I sure hope they'll fail as much as T3 Cruisers did. I remember when I used to argue almost 2 years ago about the problems Titans and their DD's will pose when they become more common. Took 'em this long to change it. So yeah.
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition	Posted - 2009.10.12 21:25:00 - [84] Originally by: Dracoknight I rather want T3 destroyers than frigates... This. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.
Deva Blackfire Viziam	Posted - 2009.10.12 21:44:00 - [85] Originally by: Ranger 1 Originally by: Dracoknight I rather want T3 destroyers than frigates... This. Looking at t3 cruisers some better t3 frig setups will be on par with HACs ...
Andrea Griffin	Posted - 2009.10.12 21:49:00 - [86] I, personally, would like something different than "It's fast, it's cloaky, it does uber DPS." That, quite honestly, is boring. We have enough of that. I would like to see the frigates have an emphasis on electronic warfare - not only giving it, but being able to resist it as well. A reduction in the effectiveness of incoming EWar - webs, disruptors, neuts, etc. - might be interesting. Fitting reductions might also be interesting, allowing a frigate to fit several cruiser-sized weapons instead of frigate weapons. An extremely small signature radius is a different kind of tanking that I think is underutilized. I would like to see all of them have the support of a drone or two - possibly a significant bonus to EWar drones, so that drones other than the ECM drones see the light of day. That combined with the ability to hold a small set of drones - even if only one can be used at a time - can give the frigate versatility in the EWar field without giving it too many slots. What about a logistics focus, or a gang boosting bonus? The ability to fit warfare links? Perhaps and enhanced version of the directional scanner that can reach out 50AU and can pick up cloaked ships, or gives you the distance to the object +/- an AU or two. As mentioned above, something dedicated to mini profession sites might also be very cool. An exploration module that provides an extra mid or two and an 100% access bonus. Really, anything other than "Oh, it's just another interceptor" or "Gee, all that money just to fly another assault frigate".

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