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Hester Shaw
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Posted - 2009.10.13 16:29:00 -
[91]
The readers can make up their own minds. I feel that it's necessary to derail the head of steam you're building up, though, by stating that I've never engaged in combat with Fractionists, and hardly count as a 'foe'. I certainly do not consider the Fraction an enemy.
As for 'judging' - your judgements do not concern or trouble me. I don't doubt that this won't stop you making them anyways.
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Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.10.13 16:40:00 -
[92]
 Originally by: Hester Shaw
The readers can make up their own minds. I feel that it's necessary to derail the head of steam you're building up, though, by stating that I've never engaged in combat with Fractionists, and hardly count as a 'foe'. I certainly do not consider the Fraction an enemy.
Again. How can we know whether you are telling the truth or not? The reality is that only interaction I have had with your current identity has been you making negative and broad-reaching (unattributed and unsupportable) statements.
Your employment record lists only the School of Applied Knowledge. Yet you are speaking about matters far beyond the likely cognizance of your current identity.
The inevitable conclusion is that you are speaking lines provided by another identity and are acting as an agent purely to cloak the name of the originator. Presumably an originator who has been kicked around the Star Cluster by the Free Captains of the Star Fraction at some previous moment.
Therefore we can reasonably conclude two things:
1. That you are simply a puppet delivering the words of another identity.
2. That the other "identity" is a capsuleer with a great terror of revealing the fact of his or her animosity to the Star Fraction.
Nothing you say with these unattributed and unrecognizable lips can reasonably be expected to be taken at "face value" since its beyond obvious that your words are not spoken by the face behind the sentiment.
True Knowledge |
Merdaneth
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.10.13 16:44:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Tomahawk Bliss
yeah i've stopped debating this because of it. Every third line or so has some nasty twist or dig or insult. Every second line is a mantra response of the same proposition, all of it based on an (admitted!) lack of understanding.
I am trying hard to understand mr. Bliss, but I'm also trying hard to point out all the inconsistencies, oddities and hypocrisies that are hidden behind the words and actions of ms. Constantine and other Fraction members. As a good scientist I'm constantly trying to falsify the claims made by the Fraction.
Ms. Constantine has the ability to produce well-written prose, but making something sound good is something different than making sense, using logic and applying reason. If one looks at the words more closely, analyses their meaning and compares them to previous statements, the whole thing tends to fall down like a shoddily constructed house of cards.
Both ms. Constantine and the Cosmopolite often try to avoid and sidestep my questions. Perhaps this is due to the fact that their answers might be miinterpreted by the public at large, or perhaps it is because when stripped of the flowery prose their answers suddenly seem hollow, false and contradictory.
When I'm suggesting that Star Fraction is for a large part dependent on its CEO, I cite several sources of evidence. I ask question which might help prove or disprove my position. Sometimes these questions are answered, sometimes they aren't.
That fact that you are allowed into Star Fraction doesn't neccessarily disprove ms. Constantine's singular importance to the Fraction. If you ask a slave if he feels enslaved and he answers 'no I don't', that doesn't that prove that he is not enslaved, it merely proves he doesn't *feel* enslaved.
If I see you publically disagree with ms. Constantine, if I see you lead large battleship fleets without her present, if I see you present SF campaigns on the IGS that don't have her approval, you will help convince me that she isn't the central figure that most of the Fraction revolves around. The proof of the pudding remains in the eating.
You fight for freespace? Show me freespace that has come about due to your actions. The closest thing to freespace in capsuleer dominates territories is administered by the CVA. The organization that is supposedly the largest opponent of freespace. When I see pod pilots I don't know refer one another to CVA space when they ask where it is safe to go into 0.0, then I see can taste the proof of an ideology.
____
The Illusion of Freedom | The Truth about Slavery |
Tomahawk Bliss
Minmatar
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.10.13 16:46:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Hester Shaw
Originally by: Tomahawk Bliss
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Your greatest weakness Merdaneth is your seeming inability to communicate honestly.
yeah i've stopped debating this because of it. Every third line or so has some nasty twist or dig or insult. Every second line is a mantra response of the same proposition,
Ironically, this is how many people feel about Ms. Constantine. Much of the rest of your statement, too, in fact.
buy cutting the last part of my final sentence you twisted what I was saying to suit your petty aims. I disprove of you doing so to my comments.
Originally by: Tomahawk Bliss
all of it based on an (admitted!) lack of understanding.
That is the line that matters, ignorance breeds the necessity to back fill post with jive from a lack of substantive understanding. This was what I was calling him out on. Jade may be many things but she is not ignorant of Freespace or Star Fraction's ideology.
The problem here is that Merdaneth, like you, does not understand the Star Fraction. You are both outsiders, willful hate mongers and refuse to entertain any alternative view while so focused on trying to spread discord.
The difference between you is that Merdaneth is one hundred times your superior as he admits both his dislike and his ignorance and is honest about who he is. I can disagree with him, argue with him and know it is really an actual involved pilot who speaks and all of us (debaters and spectators) can take into account that he is a member of PIE with a long blood history involving war from the Star Fraction.
"Hester Shaw" is just some random creature and thus is inherently insincere.
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Hester Shaw
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Posted - 2009.10.13 16:51:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
2. That the other "identity" is a capsuleer with a great terror of revealing the fact of his or her animosity to the Star Fraction.
For emphasis, I must state that I do not consider the Fraction an enemy. As for your conclusions - your thinking is running in the wrong direction. I don't need to brand myself with a corporation logo to run a corporation.
Ah, and Mr Bliss - if it salves your feelings, I can happily drop the third sentence. It won't detract much from my original point.
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Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.10.13 16:56:00 -
[96]
Edited by: Jade Constantine on 13/10/2009 16:56:24
Originally by: Hester Shaw
For emphasis, I must state that I do not consider the Fraction an enemy. As for your conclusions - your thinking is running in the wrong direction. I don't need to brand myself with a corporation logo to run a corporation.
And I must re-emphasise. How can we know if you are telling the truth or not? You are a student in a starting academy corporation with no record of previous contact with the Star Fraction speaking on subjects you have no logical connection too. You are not "running" the School of Applied Knowledge - you are a student and have failed thus far to graduate. Yet you speak on matters involving corporations and alliances far beyond your cognizance.
You see your predicament of course? Now it is known to be (likely) that you are simply delivering the thoughts and opinions of another how can anyone sensibly place credence in your words? It would be ridiculous to trust the opinions of such a messenger.
True Knowledge |
Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.10.13 17:01:00 -
[97]
Edited by: Jade Constantine on 13/10/2009 17:03:41
Originally by: Merdaneth
Both ms. Constantine and the Cosmopolite often try to avoid and sidestep my questions.
Only a fool would agree to answer your deceitful leading questions in the terms in which they are posed. We really are too used to your twisting dishonesty Merdaneth and its all too easy to see the poison in your barbs.
Instead you must now ask straight questions. I have told you this time and time before. Speak simply and honestly and you will receive simple and honest answers. Your problem is you seem incapable of asking honest questions. Solve that problem in yourself and you will find the progress of debate far less painful.
True Knowledge |
Tomahawk Bliss
Minmatar
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.10.13 17:03:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Hester Shaw
Ah, and Mr Bliss - if it salves your feelings, I can happily drop the third sentence. It won't detract much from my original point.
Originally by: Tomahawk Bliss
"Hester Shaw" is just some random creature and thus is inherently insincere.
I'd love to talk about you "point", but not to a propaganda mouth piece created to provide a false sense of neutrality mixed with the distain.
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Hester Shaw
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Posted - 2009.10.13 17:04:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Hester Shaw
For emphasis, I must state that I do not consider the Fraction an enemy. As for your conclusions - your thinking is running in the wrong direction. I don't need to brand myself with a corporation logo to run a corporation.
And I must re-emphasise. How can we know if you are telling the truth or not? You are a student in a starting academy corporation with no record of previous contact with the Star Fraction speaking on subjects you have no logical connection too. You are not "running" the School of Applied Knowledge - you are a student and have failed thus far to graduate. Yet you speak on matters involving corporations and alliances far beyond your cognizance.
You see your predicament of course? Now it is known to be (likely) that you are simply delivering the thoughts and opinions of another how can anyone sensible place credence in your words? It would be ridiculous to trust the opinions of such a messenger.
I appear to have made a slight language error. I did not intend to imply that I was running the School - hardly! The idea is laughable. No, my intended implication was that it is entirely possible to run a corporation that you are not a part of - doubtless you can understand the whys and hows of that.
The label of 'School of Applied knowledge' is largely due to the inferiority of CONCORD recordkeeping - I no longer consider myself a part of the School, but as I have not 'moved on' into another corporation, I remain under its tag.
As for 'beyond my cognizance' - I've held my capsuleer's license for close on three years now. I've had plenty of time to watch the politics of the cluster tick over, and educate myself with regards the natures of corporations and alliances. As a result, I do not consider such workings to be beyond my understanding.
And again - I deny these accusations of being a messenger. As for trust, well, that's rather scarce in this galaxy. I'd hardly expect it under any circumstances or with any form of background employment record.
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Merdaneth
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.10.13 17:06:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Quote:
That is one of the major points of contention between the imperialist and the anarchists.
It actually isn't. You have never grasped The Cosmopolite's attempts to explain the how sovereign individuals can cooperate on collective endeavour I think. But our main point of contention is your opposition to the free social and cultural evolution of the human species and the development of a progressive market of space-born settlers expanding into the black in a vast new diaspora of endless adventure and true experience. Of course your decision to place false religion and authority-worship above free association and individual choice is a major contributing factor.
That is true, I do not yet completely understand him. The explanations seem internally inconsistent and don't provide answers for what I see as common questions. You claim your philosophy doesn't need faith or magic to justify itself, you claim your philosopy is one of reason, logic and rationality. I am using these same methods to deconstruct the arguments you make. Your speeches are directed at the hearts of capsuleers, they seem intended to capture people's imagination, to make them dream about a greater and better world.
That's all well and fine, but I'm not debating imagination and dreams with you. I'm debating logic, reason and cold hard facts. You provide plenty of the former, but little of the latter. If you don't have proof that your dream works, you'd better come up with some pretty good arguments.
Each time you start to fly off towards some pretty dream, you'll see me pulling you back onto solid ground and have you face the reality of what you are saying. No matter how often you say that some gold apple will fall from the trees if I just start to believe X or do Y, I just cannot take your arguments on faith alone.
'Free association between sovereign individuals' is not a self-explanatory magic phrase. You have to explain to me why my decision to join PIE is not free association while mr. Bliss his decision to join the Fraction is. You'll have to explain why my acceptance of PIE's red list when I join is fundamentally different from mr. Bliss acceptance of the SF red list when he joined. Until now, I've not seen an explanation that is logical, internally consistent with other SF rules and practices and doesn't use some kind of circular reference.
____
The Illusion of Freedom | The Truth about Slavery |
Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.10.13 17:11:00 -
[101]
I am still not hearing an honest question Merdaneth. Start with something simple.
True Knowledge |
Merdaneth
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.10.13 17:17:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Your employment record lists only the School of Applied Knowledge. Yet you are speaking about matters far beyond the likely cognizance of your current identity. To look a little deeper we can see that you have been a student of the School of Applied Knowledge for 2 years, 9 months and 24 days. Thats a long time to spend in a teaching establishment. Perhaps we can assume that you haven't found it easy to find a Capsuleer-corporation to join? Could we asssume you have problems getting on with people? Who knows really.
While I can understand your hesistancy to accept the word of someone that hasn't joined a capsuleer corporation, it is perfectly possible that such a person is not the mouthpiece of another. In fact, to study Star Fraction and have an opinion about it isn't even neccessary to be a capsuleer at all.
Also the length of someone's membership of an organization is again no reason to discount a person. I myself have been in school for more than a decade, first as a student, later in a teaching position.
I have noticed you have used the argument along the line of 'if you don't have reputation X or Y or past A or B it isn't even worth to talk to you regardless of what you say' often in the past. What qualification would one need other than the strength of one's argument for ms. Constantine to grace the one who asked with a good answer?
In fact, would such a student if he/she applied to Star Fraction not be allowed to join or perhaps not listened to if he/she joined because if the capsuleer would have a past of this sort?
This is again an indication of contradictory statements. Star Fraction is open to *anyone* is the oft-repeated dogma. By publicly judging people like this student not even worthy of a debate solely because of their past, you have cast doubt on that statement to me.
____
The Illusion of Freedom | The Truth about Slavery |
Archbishop
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.10.13 17:20:00 -
[103]
I normally try to avoid these fractionist propoganda threads. Still as I was mentioned I would like to set the record straight...
1. I do build T1 ships. I also invent and build several T2 ships and about 60 different T2 weapons and modules.
2. I am not an experienced combat pilot. I can be effective and have killed 1 on 1 but my interests are industrial and that is where I spend most of my time.
3. I have taken a vow of celebacy and am not some kind of deviant as Jade implies. (An accusation that made me laugh given the source and her well known activities with a certain mentally unstable Bloodveil deviant).
4. I do not use tools like vitoc, lashes, torture, etc on my slaves unless absolutely necessary. I firmly follow the SPCS guidelines for humane slave treatment. I have always believed a happy slave is a slave more open to enlightenment and Gods truth.
Archbishop
PIE WEBSITE
ARCHBISHOP PORTAL |
Tomahawk Bliss
Minmatar
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.10.13 17:21:00 -
[104]
I got from his last paragraph ôhow is Merdaneth different from Mr. Bliss.ö
...oh honey child!
The ways we are different are as numerous as the stars in the sky.
Its like Apples and Passion Fruits, its like Water and Back Rub Oil. If in a deck of cards you were the duce of clubs...I'd be a lawn chair.
there is no comparison. you are an opportunist vulture and I am a cougar.
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Merdaneth
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.10.13 17:24:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
I am still not hearing an honest question Merdaneth. Start with something simple.
I suggest I'll ask these questions in private, to avoid the risk of misleading or misinforming the public on the IGS with my questions and thus spend less time with you attempting to avoid PR damage rather than trying to answer my question.
It might also have the additional benefit of me not boring the readers here.
____
The Illusion of Freedom | The Truth about Slavery |
Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.10.13 17:26:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Hester Shaw
I appear to have made a slight language error. I did not intend to imply that I was running the School - hardly! The idea is laughable. No, my intended implication was that it is entirely possible to run a corporation that you are not a part of - doubtless you can understand the whys and hows of that. The label of 'School of Applied knowledge' is largely due to the inferiority of CONCORD recordkeeping - I no longer consider myself a part of the School, but as I have not 'moved on' into another corporation, I remain under its tag.
I see, so if I understand you correctly you are claiming to yourself control other individuals who are members of a capsuleer-registered corporation whom you'd rather keep secret while conducting whatever character-assassinations and corrosive galnet comment you please with this identity (protected as it is behind a shield of trainees and students). That isn't a particularly honest position you take. Don't you feel its unreasonable to embroil your thousands of fellow-students in discussion that would better come from the corporate identity you control through other puppet identities? You have admitted a fairly deceitful and cowardly mechanism to protect your interests here.
Quote:
As for 'beyond my cognizance' - I've held my capsuleer's license for close on three years now. I've had plenty of time to watch the politics of the cluster tick over, and educate myself with regards the natures of corporations and alliances. As a result, I do not consider such workings to be beyond my understanding.
And yet you see fit to hide the corporation you claim to control while protecting yourself from the consequences of your words behind the immunity of a training school for junior pilots. What does that say about your character? What would it say about mine if instead of fighting on the front line of Star Fraction combat patrols I waited in a starter-corp and instructed novices to fight instead of me? Surely if nothing else you would admit that I am clearly a more courageous and forthright individual than you are? My integrity is in my actions as your actions represent risk aversion and using unskilled students as a shield to protect you from consequence. These are clear facts I hope you will agree?
Quote:
And again - I deny these accusations of being a messenger. As for trust, well, that's rather scarce in this galaxy. I'd hardly expect it under any circumstances or with any form of background employment record.
If you had an employment record we could at least check your story against others who you had a history of working with in times before. There would be a background to check. As it is we have only your unsubstantiated word placed here from behind the protect of a starter academy corp and your assertion that while you are a corporate leader you prefer to keep that identity secret to avoid any consequence that might arise from your public condemnation of another such corporate officer.
Remember Hester Shaw - we didn't draw you here. You came of your own decision to claim that "many pilots" (unsubstantiated and unproven) have said a thing. We challenged you on that and discovered you were the kind of individual who prefers to act in secret and hide your resources while protecting yourself as a mature student in a starter corp. Is it unreasonable to assume that your tendency towards crass immorality (using underskilled students as a human shield) and dishonesty (hiding your external corporate identity) would combine to make it reasonable for us to distrust your word and dismiss you as a reliable messenger?
After all. Free Captains of the Star Fraction are what we are. We stand and debate with our own identities and resources clearly identified. I am speaking here in my own name and full knowledge that if anyone takes issue with anything I say they have the recourse of action in space.
You have denied us that from the outset.
True Knowledge |
Tomahawk Bliss
Minmatar
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.10.13 17:27:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Archbishop
3. I have taken a vow of celibacy and am not some kind of deviant as Jade implies. (An accusation that made me laugh given the source and her well known activities with a certain mentally unstable Bloodveil deviant).
good example of a Jade vs another SF person disagreement (namely me). I do not believe Archbishop is a sexual deviant. I also believe that Blood raiders often are sexual deviants...not that as capsuleers that matters to us (the outdated planet bound social restrictions).
thank you for posting Archbishop.
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Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.10.13 17:31:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Merdaneth
I suggest I'll ask these questions in private, to avoid the risk of misleading or misinforming the public on the IGS with my questions and thus spend less time with you attempting to avoid PR damage rather than trying to answer my question. It might also have the additional benefit of me not boring the readers here.
I have absolutely no interest in fielding discussion with you in private Merdaneth and no perception whatsoever of any negative PR arising from your coils of your malicious IGS undulations. So again I'd challenge you to ask a simple and honest question if you wish to continue to contribute to this debate.
Really now, it can't be that hard to ask something without lacing every second word with poisonous inneundo and deceitful misinterpretation and pre-assumption can it?
How about asking me what my favourite brand of Republic autocannon is?
Perhaps you should start very simply and work up from that.
True Knowledge |
Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.10.13 17:40:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Archbishop
3. I have taken a vow of celebacy and am not some kind of deviant as Jade implies. (An accusation that made me laugh given the source and her well known activities with a certain mentally unstable Bloodveil deviant).
For the record I believe strongly that there is a significant sexual motive behind the Amarrian religious establishment's promotion of slavery. You turn the whips and chains and branding irons and punishment cages into a fetish. It is well known that a great deal of stimulation can arise from denying yourself the immediacy of physical release (often through the medium of chastity-devices and pain-inducing nanopads). I find the focus on submission and domination in your religious theatre to be profoundly transparent and deeply revealing.
That said, there's nothing wrong with any of that between consenting adults and I'd be a great hyprocrit if I claimed not to indulge my interests in such ways from time to time.
The difference between you and I though Archbishop is I don't feel the need to pump my sexual partners full of Vitoc and threaten to have their elderly relatives eaten by slaver hounds if they don't perform appropriately.
The devil is ever in the details.
True Knowledge |
Hester Shaw
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Posted - 2009.10.13 18:14:00 -
[110]
Your understanding is correct - after the subtraction of the various comments about shielding, trainees, and students. I have specifically stated that I no longer consider myself part of the School. If you find issue with my continued classification as a member - something that I do not consider to be valid - I suggest you appeal to the directorship of the School. Doubtless they will be happy to hear you if you raise such an issue as the one that has arisen here.
As for 'deceitful and cowardly'. Deceitful I do not deny. 'Cowardly' I take issue with - it is a matter of prudence. My activities are relatively unhindered as is. Moving ahead, and bypassing the various 'shield', 'starter corp' and suchlike comments (due them having been addressed above), I would certainly be tempted to admit you are quite forthright - but on reflection, the situation becomes more complex. By way of explanation, I should state that the nature of the majority of my activities is that of interstellar trade. I feel this will produce a feeling of disdain in you, but I would challenge that should it arise - after all, death holds no fear for you. You are immortal. So we both take risks - you in space combat, and I in the treacherous waters of the market. I would even suggest that I am frequently in a position to lose more - in terms of pure ISK, at least - in an unfortunate market shift than you are in a position to lose a considerable sum (via the medium of ship loss) as a result of a combat engagement. Both professions require courage, and necessitate the taking of risks - the difference being that one of them involves some more explosions. I suspect, however, that this could give rise to a long discussion that does not belong here.
You are correct that I wish to avoid a consequence - but the consequence is not in condemnation of another, but in my being linked to the corporation that is under my command. Again, I must dismiss the comment about students (See above, as before), but a certain level of dishonesty *is* necessary, as I have explained. Claim I am an unreliable messenger if you wish, because I am nobody's messenger but my own. In closing I would ask - what is it that makes 'action in space' superior? All it results in is loss of ISK, something I can easily accomplish in an unfortunate transaction or failed excercise in market speculation. It holds no fear for me, because I - like you - do not fear death.
Postscript: I apologise for the overly wordy nature of the comparison between possible loss from trading and combat. I hope it reads as I intended.
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Merdaneth
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.10.13 18:20:00 -
[111]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
After all. Free Captains of the Star Fraction are what we are. We stand and debate with our own identities and resources clearly identified. I am speaking here in my own name and full knowledge that if anyone takes issue with anything I say they have the recourse of action in space.
I remember a relative of yours named Jasmine. She was quite vocal on the IGS some time ago. This was during a period I heard when you were restricted from posting because you broke some regulations.
I still see Jasmine Constatine in space, but she has become nearly a non-entity on this very summit. Is she currently restricted from posting, or was she merely acting as your mouthpiece when you were restricted from posting? If the latter, I find your position about using mouthpieces entirely hypocritical.
As far as our discussion is concerned, your slanderous accusations at the address of his eminence the Archbishop have filled me with such distaste that I cannot continue any reasonable debate with you at this time. I'm expecting an apology of some kind.
Merdaneth out.
____
The Illusion of Freedom | The Truth about Slavery |
Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
|
Posted - 2009.10.13 18:33:00 -
[112]
Edited by: Jade Constantine on 13/10/2009 18:37:24
Originally by: Merdaneth
I remember a relative of yours named Jasmine. She was quite vocal on the IGS some time ago. This was during a period I heard when you were restricted from posting because you broke some regulations. I still see Jasmine Constatine in space, but she has become nearly a non-entity on this very summit. Is she currently restricted from posting, or was she merely acting as your mouthpiece when you were restricted from posting? If the latter, I find your position about using mouthpieces entirely hypocritical.
As usual you tell a mixture of lies and misdirections, slander and nonsense. Its all getting quite easy to hurl out your input with the rubbish in one foul swoop.
My cousin is still alive and well but has barred herself from posting on the IGS as part of the terms of a duel she fought with Frank Monkey several months ago (and lost) the terms of the defeat were that either losing party were not allowed to post on the IGS again until they had destroyed 10 24th Crusade Battleship hulls. By our count Jasmine is currently on 9 of 10 so it shouldn't be too long until she can post again.
As for my own conflict with the corrupt authorities in concord fluidcom registry lets just say matters were resolved to my complete satisfaction with a mix of bribery, poisoned flechettes and a show-trial which saw my enemies purged and exiled to some lonely rock a long way away from any kind of power of censorship.
If you only had the wit to ask simple questions rather than trying the slither and slime your way to deceit and confusion you might learn quite a lot more!
Quote:
As far as our discussion is concerned, your slanderous accusations at the address of his eminence the Archbishop have filled me with such distaste that I cannot continue any reasonable debate with you at this time. I'm expecting an apology of some kind.Merdaneth out.
Expect all you like. And don't think for one moment my comments about the sexual motive behind your protestations of religious faith were restricted to Archbishop alone. I think you are all at it you randy self-denial fetishists - I'm quite sure the sackcloth and ashes in your own quarters are ripe with the old sweat-stains of holy rapture in the name of some dominant authority figure!
True Knowledge |
Tomahawk Bliss
Minmatar
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.10.13 19:47:00 -
[113]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Archbishop
3. I have taken a vow of celebacy and am not some kind of deviant as Jade implies. (An accusation that made me laugh given the source and her well known activities with a certain mentally unstable Bloodveil deviant).
For the record I believe strongly that there is a significant sexual motive behind the Amarrian religious establishment's promotion of slavery.
We will have to agree to disagree.
Oh No!!! A disagreement, how will I survive as a member if Jade is a Tyrant!? Oh wait a tic, SF is about being a FreeCaptain. It ainÆt just a jazzy name folks. I will refer to the ôwhat is said, is meantö line and leave it at that.
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Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.10.14 17:15:00 -
[114]
Originally by: Hester Shaw
Your understanding is correct ...
Jolly good.
Quote:
As for 'deceitful and cowardly'. Deceitful I do not deny. 'Cowardly' I take issue with - it is a matter of prudence ... I would certainly be tempted to admit you are quite forthright - but on reflection, the situation becomes more complex. By way of explanation, I should state that the nature of the majority of my activities is that of interstellar trade. I feel this will produce a feeling of disdain in you, but I would challenge that should it arise - after all, death holds no fear for you.
You would be incorrect to assume I would disdain the practise of interstellar trade. Indeed that you think I might betrays the fact you clearly haven't read my opening statement. Jericho Fraction began its operations in the opening days of the Diaspora as free traders and we carried goods in our own name from nullsec to nullsec and made a fortune in doing so. But I don't agree that to be a trader one must neccessarily be a coward - or cloak one's operating identity from the public debate. This is less about your means of business and more about my disdain for those who think to throw barbs into debate from the secrecy of false identities and expect their word to count for something.
I only value the word of courageous people. That is how I judge who is worth doing business with and who is not. Those who are too tremulous to enter a debate under their true colours are (to my eyes) behaving deceitfully and are automatically disregarded. After all, what profit is there is listening too or crediting the opinions of a person who does not have the courage of their own convictions?
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You are immortal. So we both take risks - you in space combat, and I in the treacherous waters of the market.
Don't believe for a moment you can make such a distinction. As explained (again) in my opening statement Star Fraction is far more invested in the market than many could possibly imagine.
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... I would even suggest that I am frequently in a position to lose more - in terms of pure ISK, at least - in an unfortunate market shift than you are in a position to lose a considerable sum (via the medium of ship loss) as a result of a combat engagement. Both professions require courage, and necessitate the taking of risks - the difference being that one of them involves some more explosions. I suspect, however, that this could give rise to a long discussion that does not belong here.
I think you are operating on the false assumption that we believe in a distinction between warriors and producers - traders and fighters. We simply don't. Such a caste divison would be ridiculous and entirely contrary to the philosophy of individual sovereignty and free enterprise.
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You are correct that I wish to avoid a consequence - but the consequence is not in condemnation of another, but in my being linked to the corporation that is under my command. Again, I must dismiss the comment about students (See above, as before), but a certain level of dishonesty *is* necessary, as I have explained.
Well given that you have admitted a level of dishonesty I imagine you will understand why I place no credence on your earlier assertions about speaking for "others".
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Claim I am an unreliable messenger if you wish, because I am nobody's messenger but my own.
Well thats the crux of our disagreement. If you are simply speaking for yourself then there is no problem. You can certainly say that you find Star Fraction unpalatable. But earlier you claimed to speak for some large unattributed majority who found us so. If that is not the case then fair enough.
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In closing I would ask - what is it that makes 'action in space' superior?
Absolutely nothing in itself. But the opinion of one who acts is worth more than one who does not. Simple pragmatics - why would we care about the condemnation of somebody with no power for example?
True Knowledge |
Darina Rea
Sovereign Hospitaller Order of Saint Katherine
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Posted - 2009.10.14 20:22:00 -
[115]
Because words, as the topic demonstrates, carry power.
They might not kill someone instantly.
They might not physically hurt someone.
They might not actually do anything.
They might inspire someone.
They might encourage someone to endure beyond normal.
They might bring hope to the crushed.
Words are possible the most dangerous and most glorious tool available to humankind. Words make up able to tell others how we feel. What we think. Words undoubtedly carry the power to change everything, when used right, but also when used wrong, or when used not at all.
What else, can words do?
In a word.
Everything.
So what does the opinion of a single person without power carry?
If the opinion is worded right and given form at the right time.
Ha! It can change nations! Make them! Destroy them!
Just ask the Minmatar when the Amarr invaded and crushed them, following the words of God.
Just ask the Amarr when the Minmatar rose up and rebelled, following the words of a rebel.
Just ask the Gallente what makes them vote for Foiritain, the words of a gentlemen.
Just ask the Caldari when Tibus Heth shouted his message into the State, the words of change.
They matter. Oh, how much they matter!
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_________
Time is on our side. |
Lay'la Seraphim
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Posted - 2009.10.15 05:06:00 -
[116]
From what I've experienced, being involved in the Star Fraction means aiding and abetting Minmatar s**** in their unlawful actions. All this propaganda about being 'free captains' and whatnot is just a rationalization for exploiting loopholes in the rules of warfare as set forth by Concord in order to freely wardec corporations fighting for the Amarr Militia.
If you truly oppose hegemony in all it's forms, why not then array yourselves against the Minmatar scum? Their rule is completely predicated upon a tribal structure which is characterized wholly by complete domination of the subservient classes or tribes, by the tribe that wields the most power in the form of corruption.
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Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.10.16 14:11:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Darina Rea
Because words, as the topic demonstrates, carry power ... Words are possible the most dangerous and most glorious tool available to humankind. Words make up able to tell others how we feel. What we think. Words undoubtedly carry the power to change everything, when used right, but also when used wrong, or when used not at all. What else, can words do? In a word.
And yet words ripped away from the potential of action become simply noise. This is why I place very little value in the words of those without clear identity because it is simply impossible to assess the connection between the sounds and the capability of lips speaking. Words can lie, they can befuddle, they can confuse and manipulate and as thinking beings it is our task to judge the veracity of words from whatever supporting evidence we can from the circumstances around their speaking.
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So what does the opinion of a single person without power carry? If the opinion is worded right and given form at the right time. Ha! It can change nations! Make them! Destroy them!
Then of course the person speaking them has power, the power to convince. Yet as thinking beings those being "convinced" are not convinced by words alone but of the arguments and vision and the assessment of the reliability of the speaker. Words from a known liar and fraudster are viewed with distrust and cynicism. Hence the same words from a trustworthy and courageous speaker will be given more credence and support than an identical speech from a coward and a traitor. The words alone lack power without the essence of the individual delivering them.
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Just ask the Minmatar when the Amarr invaded and crushed them, following the words of God.
Actually the words of priests interpreting a myth to their personal interests - yet they were occupying a superior position in the Amarrian hegenomy and the nature of power-worship in that society gave the lever for these functionaries to set the military machine in action. Yet the example follows - the notion of "god" is the thing with power to the Amarr - not the words in and of themselves. I could ghostwrite the words of "god" and have ten million amarrians prostrate themselves purposely in the name of "Saint Imadeitup" if I convince them the words are scripture. The perceived origin is everything - the words themselves mean little.
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Just ask the Amarr when the Minmatar rose up and rebelled, following the words of a rebel.
The rebel who shouted "we must rise" and stood amongst his brothers on Ezzara IV with his Khumaak drenched in the blood of his former master leant power to the words with his action and presence and intention to fight. The words lack all power and capability if they were anonymously sent by radio from an underground bunker a long way from the war.
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Just ask the Gallente what makes them vote for Foiritain, the words of a gentlemen.
Fear and manipulation in the main - but I'll grand you, Foiritain has been successful in his manipulations though he as well has the art of personal appearence on occassion - I certainly have met the man in space in the wake of the Elarel Massacre where he personally declared the campaign of vengence against UDI.
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Just ask the Caldari when Tibus Heth shouted his message into the State, the words of change.
And again Tibus Heth has manipulated the State through personal appearence - personal proximity at the front when he defied the old corporate regime. The perception of personal investment and involvement in the revolution lends power to his relatively weak and unconvincing words. A stumbling buffoon can become an influencial speaker if the words are made at the right time in the right place with a bloodstained body and tattered flag in the composition on the news media.
Quote:
They matter. Oh, how much they matter!
With the right speaker yes.
But that was largely my point.
True Knowledge |
Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
|
Posted - 2009.10.16 14:19:00 -
[118]
Originally by: Lay'la Seraphim
From what I've experienced, being involved in the Star Fraction means aiding and abetting Minmatar s**** in their unlawful actions. All this propaganda about being 'free captains' and whatnot is just a rationalization for exploiting loopholes in the rules of warfare as set forth by Concord in order to freely wardec corporations fighting for the Amarr Militia.
If you truly oppose hegemony in all it's forms, why not then array yourselves against the Minmatar scum? Their rule is completely predicated upon a tribal structure which is characterized wholly by complete domination of the subservient classes or tribes, by the tribe that wields the most power in the form of corruption.
I think you've followed the rather poor example of Merdaneth here and thing to ask a leading question that occludes the honesty of the debate. What you should ask is "why does the Star Fraction not oppose the Republic government as it opposes the Amarrian empire?"
To which I'll be glad to refer you to comments on the subject made by The Cosmopolite earlier in the campaign.
To address your complaints the conduct of the war and Star Fraction's chosen tactics in isolating and targetting 24th Crusade command and control and frontline corps then I must tell you the remedy for your helplessness is within your own capability. It does require a little courage and unity of action however, but since many crusaders are simply brigands unconcerned with the fate of their fellows that appears increasingly unlikely.
Ultimately though you are travelling down the path to the True Knowledge step by step. One day you may come to the realization that nobody is to blame for your lack of power but yourself and your unwillingness to do what is neccessary to protect your personal interests.
True Knowledge |
Lay'la Seraphim
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Posted - 2009.10.16 19:44:00 -
[119]
Ahh, I see the rationale now. It still appears to me that your organization is still partaking in the idea of nationalism or 'corporationism'. While your claims of industrial prowess may be true and your motives derived from capsuleer's perceived immortality, your interests in setting the Tribal Liberation Force to neutral seem to be conjoined with the old nationalist idea of nation building.
To reiterate:
You provide ships and materiel to all sides.
You fight all factions save one, the Minmatar.
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Theophilas
Amarr
Deus Imperiosus Acies
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Posted - 2009.10.17 00:17:00 -
[120]
Edited by: Theophilas on 17/10/2009 00:25:13
Layla, prepare yourself for a heaping dose of hypocrisy. If you can steel yourself against it, you might succeed in dragging this thread another couple pages, if you can't, then Jade or one of her little dancing monkeys will get the last word in with some long winded, ripped directly from a thesaurus diatribe, that few will read, and even fewer will care about.
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No sooner said than done - so acts your man of worth. |
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