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Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.10 18:52:00 - [1] The True Knowledge of the Star Fraction The bridge of a starship with the forward holotanks displaying close orbit detail of an emerald-hued world illuminated by the golden disk of the systemÆs primary in sharp relief. In the foreground a Gallentean women turns and walks towards the camera drone, her features coming into focus as the starÆs luminosity is filtered down to a crimson undertone at the slightest gesture of two fingers of her left hand. Her face is well-known, iconic, the half smile familiar to billions across the New Eden cluster. A simple jade kimono wraps the slight form as she frames the image and turns at once to look directly at the viewer in a measured composition of star, biosphere, olive skin and green eyes as she begins to speak gently: ôI think itÆs time we had a conversation. Some years ago a group of new pioneers on the last great frontier took to space and embraced the immortal freedoms of the great Diaspora. These were star captains, traders, industrialists, adventurers, radicals, anarchists and organizers. They were united by their very disparity, they found commonality in their strangeness, and they brought myriad philosophies to cross fertilization and wild mutation in the acceleration of the culture zeitgeist of the borderlands. They were a fraction not a faction. Their interests cut a ragged cross section across conventional ideology and made mockery of baseline political theory and nationalist dogma. They were bright angels with chariots of flame and swords of science; they had power and were determined to use it. The challenge? How to make sense of a new reality without borders, without territories, without limits. These pioneers saw their fortuneÆs rise with the hour; their nanotech manufacturing replicated their vessels and resources at a terrifying rate. The tapestry of stars; once a simple muse to the artist and poet alone became a commonplace aspiration, and the limits of imagination were lifted in a blaze of violent enthusiasm and bold explosion of outward exploration. This was time of miracle and wonder; the old truths were tested and found wanting. The faith in god or nation, in boundary and convention, all were discarded in the visible radiation of a million suns. Why did we strive? Why did we fight? What did we want? Were we good men or bad? Questions asked and burned away in the universal acid of immortal pragmatism in a universe of possibility. We are going to live forever. Think about that. I mean really think. I am going to live for a million years and more. I will see the universe turn on its axis; I will see the death and birth of suns. I will see empires rise and fall like meadow-flowers in the changing seasons of my homeworld. I will see the evolution of ecosystems and the macro-economic realities of scattered humanity boil and thrash with furious spasms of growth as viral life in a time-lapse photography, terrifying and vivid and bold as love itself. And so will you. My lovers, my enemies, my comrades, my trade-partners, my rivals, my closest friends and my deadliest foes, we are all immortal. No more purges of the truth. No more dark ages. No more dominion of religion and state tyranny. No suppression of crimes, no dirty secrets mouldering with the bones of whistle-blowers and misplaced idealism. Everything is yours if you live long enough. And we dear listener, will live forever.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.10 18:53:00 - [2] Clearly this new universe of possibility needed a different approach. Those early pioneers did quite a lot of thinking, the wonderful thing about space travel, it leaves the mind free to ponder a great many things. Now I come into the story fresh from my planetside service with Federation Intelligence Special Circumstances. I was a spy and an assassin. I killed people for democracy. I killed dreams for them as well and IÆm not proud of that. I saw a great many things and learned very little. But underneath the beating rhythms of the stateÆs heart I heard something else, a dark language barely human, a language of fear and protectionism, of suspicion and parochialism, a language of warning and terror, the threat of the outside and the things that lurked beyond the atmosphere and Van Allen belts of our gravity wells. Things like independence and freedom. Things that terrified the political establishment to the very core of its filthy heart. So I asked myself what really mattered? How should we live beyond nationalist ethos, beyond morality, beyond God and all the myths of our history, how could we live without borders and homesteads, or more to the point, why should we live without those things? Was their purpose? Why should we rage against the dying of the light? Why should we live at all? This needed a new knowledge, something that was practical, something that would last. Something that all of us had known all along but we never quite realized it could be so incredibly simple. I wanted us to build ships. I wanted us to get to the ships. I wanted those ships to carry us to the stars. I didnÆt care about territory, or old feuds, or boundaries or bylaws of nations. I was free. I wanted you to be free. I also didnÆt care about who was right and who was wrong. After all, I would reject your right to declare ownership of a planet or a system. I would listen to your words but not understand them as you explained how your territorial rights derived from struggle and hardship and divine right or GodÆs mercy or whatever other strange conceit might comprise your notion of ôownershipö of collective space. The fraction believed in the power of self. Or rather it didnÆt believe in anything beyond the free association of sovereign individuals united by self-interest. Might did make right as the absence of ômightö led only to slavery at the hands of those who had it while you didnÆt. Nothing mattered to us but our desire to live free and build our power from the resources we found in space. This sounds terrible to conventional moral understanding but really, is it worse to fight and strive in genuine self-interest than it is to fight and kill for public morality or inherited social conditioning? Why is killing a man ôfor gods willö any better than killing a man because he is a threat to you and opposes your will? Why is shooting a man in the uniform of a foreign power at the orders of one who dominates you better than shooting a tax collector at home to prevent him taking your money? When we found those who opposed our interests we fought them, our might against theirs û power pitted against power in battles to enforce our rights to live as we choose. When we found those whose interests were in common with our own we worked with them and built genuine friendships of enlightened self-interest against the rest. The first great ideological war of the new age was the Venal Civil War and it was a clash of two strands of selfish virtue over the interests of free trade against a monopolistic mining hegemony in the distant Northern Stars. We fought and built our power, we planned and strove, we battled with might to make the right of our ideas live and prosper.ö She pauses for thought, taking a breath and turning momentarily from the camera-drone. Her eyes glancing back at the celestial diorama as the viewpoint alters to compensate. Her voice when it continues is measured and resolved:
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.10 18:55:00 - [3] ôThe True Knowledge of the Star Fraction is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom. You are free to do whatever is in your power and if you want to increase your power you had better do whatever is in your interest. All that you really value, all the goodness and truth and beauty of life, all the poetry and artful words have their roots in this pragmatism. Now the authority worshiper asks me how does that make me more than a criminal? The nationalist states his superiority in serving another force greater than himself. The crusader speaks with false piety and blames a myth for his violence and hypocrisy and self-deceivers simply shudder at the words for their ... unbearable honesty. Morality is meaningless beyond self-interest and the freedom of choice. Piety is helpless in the face of immortality. There is no need for peace when we have the capacity for mutual self-destruction and the plenty of the limitless stars makes a mockery of frugal socialism and communist self-denial. Why then am I not a brigand killing all who I choose to? Because I choose not to be. Why do I not take goods and resources from those weaker than me? IÆd rather trade for them. Why do I consider myself ôbetterö than a pirate or gate-blocker alliance? Frankly I donÆt consider the comparison at all. Understand. All this is my choice. I seek power to better enable that choice. Power is a tool to be used not an idol to be worshiped. Ships are power, reputation is power, the potential to violence is power, the capacity to trade is power, the decision not to kill a neutral and spill their crew into the void û this too is power. Much has been said about the FractionÆs use of the NRDS engagement ideology above the far more common NBSI convention used by the majority of nullsec-travelling entities in the Star Cluster. But for me it has always boiled down to a very simple matter of choice, practicality and freedom. The NRDS principle emphasises choice ôto fire or not based on previous experienceö whereas the NBSI principle doesnÆt distinguish between previous hostility or previous neutrality and has the effect of trapping the pilots in question in a predetermined closed loop of aggression without preference. We are called anarchists by our enemies and many of us wear the term with pride. It is true we acknowledge no authority but self-interest and camaraderie with others who share our interests for as long as we share those interests. It will never be in my interest to submit my freedom of choice to an empire. It will never be in my interest to acknowledge a closed-space territorial claim that denies my freedom of movement. It will never be in my interest to pay subservience to a false god or statist hierarchy. But by the same measure it will never be in my interest to make war on a neutral pilot in space (I count the value of potential future interaction and trade far beyond the value of potential salvage and resource theft from the broken ship.) It will never be in my interest to break a pact or treaty or play false with words since I count momentary tactical advantage miniscule payment for the loss of long term reputation and future diplomacy amongst immortal star-captains. You see now I trust that my choices and rules of engagement are not about morality so much as self-interest and my perception of how my self-interest is served. What is moral is what is good for me. What is moral to you and I? Well that is a mutual self-interest and may be profitably exploited. What is moral to you and not to me? That may lead to conflict where we will pit our power one against the other to see who has the choice in the matter.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.10 18:56:00 - [4] Dangerous ideas perhaps yet when you strike a bargain with me you may be assured I count the long term profit from keeping my word far advanced of any short-term advantage from breaking it, and since my only moral code is purely what is good for me û you have no fear of a deep-routed faith in the divine or patriotic fancy for baseline nationalist leading me to a whimsical betrayal that manages to damage your interests and mine for whatever justification takes my fancy at the moment. ItÆs really quite simple. If a man tells you he believes in anything more important than his self then you cannot trust him to keep his word to you as an individual since that ôimportant thingö may at any time impel him to reassess any word given to the detriment of you both. Only essentially selfish individuals can strike a binding compact in mutual self-interest. And this is why the Fraction draws such antagonism from nationalists, believers, false prophets, breast-beating self-haters and various lonely souls who have approached the universal acid of True Knowledge and turned away in horror at the terrible realization that when all is said and done and oneÆs actions and deeds in this immortality are down to nobody (and nothing) but oneÆs personal and inviolate choice and there is absolutely nobody to blame but yourself. There is no ôgod asked me to kill youö, there is no ôI did this for the people!ö no ôI tortured him for the stateö and no ôI was acting in the common good!ö All self delusion and wordy-evasions at best... The road to the True Knowledge can be a long one but everyone comes to it in the end. And we have eternity to wait. Then perhaps weÆll get past all the childish responsibility-evading claptrap and strike a trade deal and you will buy some of our ships and drive the Disapora deeper into the unknown.ö She smiles at the last and dips her eyes briefly and allows the words to settle in, taps offhandedly at a freestanding holoband display to her left and scans a sweep of text before returning her gaze to the camera drone ôNow then IÆll close my comments by addressing some words that were placed on the Intergalactic Summit a few days ago by one Halunoto Vankaalen who posed the question - what has the Star Fraction constructively achieved in the past few years? Vankaalen is of course a pilot whom we fought back in the Mito Campaign some years ago and has first-hand experience in violent contention with the Free Captains of the Star Fraction. Well now. Having just checked the figures current to this moment I can tell you monsieur Vankaalen that in the past six years of the Disapora the Free Captains of the Star Fraction have constructed an estimated 200,000 tech2 starship hulls that have been sold to capsuleers and their crews in the New Eden Star Cluster. This number breaks down to around 41,000 hulls a year at full capacity, including 15,000 single seat interceptors, 13,000 assault frigates, around 3100 recon cruisers, 2000 heavy assault cruisers, 1400 command ships, 1500 light interdictor based destroyers and 4200 stealth bombers, and we round out the roster with over 1100 transport industrial hulls. One of our primary goals youÆll recall was to enable the Diaspora and get the people to the ships and I can tell you that since the Fraction is currently destroying an average 3000 hostile starship hulls a year while building and supplying 12x that number I think you can see our balance sheet of constructive provision verses deconstructive intervention is tilted profoundly on the positive side. Or to look at it another way, since the Disapora began there have been an estimated 600,000 pilots trained as capsuleers. As of this moment Star Fraction has built enough tech2 specialized ships for about a third of that number and provided these vessels in fair and open trade to their new owners.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.10 18:58:00 - [5] What we put our minds to achieve we achieve monsieur Vankaalen, and we build a lot of things. And more to the point we build them without claiming space and closing trade routes to neutral capsuleers. Our ships are the symbol and reality of the Star Fraction. These vessels are the only sovereignty we respect û the individual pilots and crews are sovereign powers to the bounds of their hulls and we treat them as such. We enable star-flight; we pursue technological innovation and seek always to adopt those inventions and refinements that allow our pilots and our trade partners to defeat the regressive road-blocker defensive equipment of imperialist powers on the frontier. Our successes are read in glowing drive tubes on the Crow Interceptors we jury-rigged with cruise missiles to carry the fight against the NAST treaty in the Great Northern war. Our achievements are measured in the silence of space as our recon vessels engage cloaks to defeat Citadel patrols and penetrate the fastness of benighted Providence. Our victories are counted in the awesome power of the Erebus rift-engines powering up to propel our fleets through hyperspace in an instant to obliterate gate-camps of xenophobic pirates and bloodthirsty crusaders scattered at our arrival. Interdiction Nulifiers, blockaderunners, black operations drives, covert cyno fields and the practical toolkit of resistence to any power that thinks to tell you where you can and cannot go. Here is accomplishment. Our pride is projected in every hull we create and every freespacer who uses our ships to bypass territorial imperialism and smiles in the reflection of instrumentation a little more assured of their individual sovereignty in the vastness of space. We Free Captains are fighting for what we want and what we want is an end to the nationalist rot of dogma and authority-worship and all the self-deluding detritus of deferred responsibility. Our interests coincide in the promotion of a new culture of free individuals with resources and ambition in a broad Diaspora of outward expansion. Our weapons are war and trade, we contend violently with the agents of status quo and regressive hierarchy while selling our star ships to anyone who wants to buy one. And every time you buy one of our ships you take a step down the road to the True Knowledge. That monsieur is the most constructive achievement of the Star Fraction." With that she steps back from the camera drone and performs a slight bow with the slightest hint of amused self-mocking theatricality ôNow then class, any questions?ö The True Knowledge of the Star Fraction
Eric Messan	Posted - 2009.10.10 19:02:00 - [6] Originally by: Jade Constantine ôNow then class, any questions?ö Yeah erm. Is there a condensed version for those of us who fell asleep midway?
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.10 19:08:00 - [7] Originally by: Eric Messan Yeah erm. Is there a condensed version for those of us who fell asleep midway? Sure. "Run. Right now. Run away and don't look back. This thread isn't for you." The True Knowledge of the Star Fraction
Jakiin Amarr	Posted - 2009.10.10 19:32:00 - [8] Originally by: Eric Messan Yeah erm. Is there a condensed version for those of us who fell asleep midway? A long, and well written history interspaced with dissapointingly black and white rhetoric such as Originally by: Jade Constatine There is no ôgod asked me to kill youö, there is no ôI did this for the people!ö no ôI tortured him for the stateö and no ôI was acting in the common good!ö All self delusion and wordy-evasions at best... Which is followed by a set of figures from which she concludes the star fraction sells over three times as many ships as it destroys personally. As I have no actual idea of the statistics of Star Fraction I'm not going to comment on it. But basically besides the statistics, it's simply a longer version of the usual "Self Interest > Percieved Greater Good" speech that she usually gives. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jakiin Holder Heir of the Kingdom 'Pacifist Reclaimer'
Stitcher Caldari ForgeTech Industries	Posted - 2009.10.10 20:59:00 - [9] Putting aside for the moment the fact that serial reincarnation with an attached risk of failure (however slim) is a very far cry indeed from immortality... Our fortune does not absolve us of our obligations to those who do not share it. quite the reverse in fact. I would not be who and what I am today without the toil and sacrifice of countless thousands of other people from all cultures and walks of life. Your philosophy as it reads here implies that you believe that great power emancipates one from responsibility. This is the precise reverse of what I learned as a child, and of what I have believed to be true. When I was a boy, the favourite Saturday morning entertainment holo among the kids in my creche was "the Adventures of Captain Spectacular". Your beliefs precisely mirror those of Captain Spectacular's arch-nemesis: Ziltoid the Omniscient. Really, pilot, it's a sorry state of affairs when your philosophy is the sort of thing that the writers of a cartoon series aimed at eight-year-olds bestow upon the googly-eyed antagonist of the series. - Verin "Stitcher" Hakatain.
Havohej Minmatar Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.10 21:02:00 - [10] Originally by: Jade Constantine ...might does make right and power makes freedom. Hear, hear. "You can still steal their stuff." - CCP Explorer
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.10 21:11:00 - [11] Originally by: Stitcher Your philosophy as it reads here implies that you believe that great power emancipates one from responsibility. By all means ask questions if you misunderstand. I by no means stated that power absolves an individual from responsibility for his or her actions. I have said the precise opposite in fact and I'm surprised you are claiming otherwise. The True Knowledge of the Star Fraction
Stitcher Caldari ForgeTech Industries	Posted - 2009.10.10 21:52:00 - [12] Edited by: Stitcher on 10/10/2009 21:53:20 Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Stitcher Your philosophy as it reads here implies that you believe that great power emancipates one from responsibility. By all means ask questions if you misunderstand. I by no means stated that power absolves an individual from responsibility for his or her actions. I have said the precise opposite in fact and I'm surprised you are claiming otherwise. Au contraire, to borrow a handy Gallentean phrase: you in fact just confirmed my point by apparently choosing the personal, self-centric interpretation of my observation, rather than the one I had in mind. I did not mean "absolved from responsibility" in terms of the consequences of ones actions, for no force in the galaxy can absolve a person of that. When I speak of "responsibility" or of "obligation" I refer to our responsibilities and obligations with regard to the greater mass of humanity who aren't pod pilots. Power and authority bring with them the obligation to use them for the greater good first and foremost. If the individual good may be served in so doing - as I have found is usually the case - then so much the better. But is it small wonder that people are going to interpret - or possibly misinterpret - your philosophy in a negative light? I come from a culture where "determinism" may as well be a dirty word after all, and that is exactly what this topic smacks of. There is, from my perspective, very little ethical virtue in "nothing matters that does not matter to you". One of the foundations of my personal moral framework is that what matters to others should matter to me also, assuming I do not disagree with their perspective. After all, what should anything matter to me any longer? My needs and luxuries are all met millions of times over. Nothing remains that "matters" to me save that which is defined by the well-being of others. Maybe that's a different approach to essentially the same philosophy, I don't know. - Verin "Stitcher" Hakatain.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.10 21:59:00 - [13] Originally by: Stitcher Power and authority bring with them the obligation to use them for the greater good first and foremost. Perhaps you'd better first explain the notion of the "greater good" and who or what makes such determinations above the personal decisions of others Stitcher. Makes little sense to get into the details while this concept remains undefined. The True Knowledge of the Star Fraction
Havohej Minmatar Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.10 22:54:00 - [14] Originally by: Stitcher There is, from my perspective, very little ethical virtue in "nothing matters that does not matter to you". One of the foundations of my personal moral framework is that what matters to others should matter to me also, assuming I do not disagree with their perspective. I understand that it's an unfortunate quality of rhetoric that people often must seem to contradict themselves in order to express a given point from time to time, but rarely does this contradiction take place in the very next sentence as you have done in the above example. I wonder if you're not just arguing because it's an -SF- topic, despite the fact that you seem to be more in agreement with what Executor Constantine has put forth than at odds with it. Anyway, I leave the two of you to debating the finer points... as I've said before, I'm more concerned with bringing as much destruction against the slaver and his supports as possible. I just wanted to make this observation before the moment had passed. "You can still steal their stuff." - CCP Explorer
Jakiin Amarr	Posted - 2009.10.10 22:57:00 - [15] To most, the "Greater Good" is something that can be measured: Killing five million for the "Greater Good" is generally against the spirit of the idea, and a workaround should be found. To some the "Greater Good" really IS just a buzzword, an excuse: Kill those five million, it's for the 'Greater Good' after all, don't bother to find an alternative. And some, such as Ms. Constatine, believe that all people who believe in the "Greater Good" are of the second group, and the first is somesort of magical fairy tale. This logic leads them to conclude that anything done for the Greater Good is usually wrong. But if you cannot work for the greater good, what is there left to work for? hy, yourself. It is this way that selfishness can be justified as being no worse than acting for something greater than oneself. As an extension, honourable acts may come of this, as Ms. Constatine pointed out it is in her best interest to be regarded as someone who carries out all of her deals. However I must ultimately disagree with Ms. Constatine's stance for the simple reason that it is so incredibly black and white, similar (In great irony) to the beliefs of the hard-line tyrants she believes she is fighting. To many hard-liner Amarr, if someone is against them it is because they are 'heretics' or 'evil'. To many SF pilots, if someone is against them it is because they are 'Imperialist' or 'Power Hungry' or 'Brainwashed'. I find the whole thing quite amusing in a way. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jakiin Holder Heir of the Kingdom 'Pacifist Reclaimer'
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.10 23:05:00 - [16] Originally by: Jakiin ... if someone is against them it is because they are 'Imperialist' or 'Power Hungry' or 'Brainwashed'. I believe you also might best serve your own interests by reading again more carefully. You are currently falling into the trap of reading what you want to see rather than what is there. The hint in this last quoted sentence is the assumption that I would consider somebody contending with me to be a bad thing - or indeed whether being hungry for power is worse than simply worshipping it. Remember that power is a tool not an idol. You are going to lengths to present yourself as one who understands the discussion Jakiin. You should probably ensure you do. The True Knowledge of the Star Fraction
Jakiin Amarr	Posted - 2009.10.10 23:49:00 - [17] Edited by: Jakiin on 10/10/2009 23:50:08 I am sorry, you're correct in that the statement was a bit generalized, something I have tried but (As you have just pointed out to me) have not always managed to avoid. I will correct it now: Originally by: Fixed To many hard-liner Amarr, if someone is against them it is because they are 'heretics' or 'evil'. To many SF pilots, if someone attempts to create a structured society where there was none then it is because they are 'Imperialist' or 'Power Hungry' or 'Brainwashed'. I find the whole thing quite amusing in a way. That is, I believe more accurate. Since you seem to have at least d**d (Left to bring attention to the over zealous censoring protocols on this network) a pretty fabric on your personal attacks this time round I think I'll also respond to another of your points. Originally by:** Jade Constatine or indeed whether being hungry for power is worse than simply worshipping it. Remember that power is a tool not an idol. I'm not entirely sure what it is you're trying to say here. No one here worships power. We may worship the Greater Good or God, which leads to a consolidation of power around these things, but that is as you said simply using power as a tool. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jakiin Holder Heir of the Kingdom 'Pacifist Reclaimer'
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.11 00:16:00 - [18] Originally by: Jakiin No one here worships power. I disagree, I believe most of the nationalists worship power. Behind the talk of "greater good", "nationalism", "the people", "the state", "god's will" and whatever other abstraction you want to place on personal servitude there is the essence of power-worship. You believe something is more important than yourself and you believe you can improve your position in the hierarchy of power-worshippers by being a better sychophant and being noticed by those in a superior position. Quote: We may worship the Greater Good or God, which leads to a consolidation of power around these things, but that is as you said simply using power as a tool. Not while it is being worshipped it isn't. Those above you may be using power as a tool (over you) but in doing so the power itself demands worship from those in the hierarchy. To be free of this mess you cannot be deluding yourself with notions of good or authority beyond yourself and your own personal interests. At this point some examination of actual power-structures may be useful since it is clear we will not find common ground on the discussion of abstractions. I'd also counsel you to be a little more thick-skinned on the issue of "personal attacks". I don't recognise ad hominem as a fallacy and I since I'm holding you entirely responsible for your opinions you should expect me to treat you as a responsible individual and assess your behaviour past and present as a vital factor in the validity of your points. The True Knowledge of the Star Fraction
Stitcher Caldari ForgeTech Industries	Posted - 2009.10.11 08:25:00 - [19] Originally by: Havohej Originally by: Stitcher There is, from my perspective, very little ethical virtue in "nothing matters that does not matter to you". One of the foundations of my personal moral framework is that what matters to others should matter to me also, assuming I do not disagree with their perspective. I understand that it's an unfortunate quality of rhetoric that people often must seem to contradict themselves in order to express a given point from time to time, but rarely does this contradiction take place in the very next sentence as you have done in the above example. True, it would be highly unusual for that to happen. Fortunate for me, therefore, that I have NOT contradicted myself - you are just interpreting my thought in a caustic way. I will admit, however, that I expressed myself in a particularly clumsy way. Ms. Constantine's conceit here was that the only things that objectively matter are the things that subjectively matter to oneself. My version is that if something objectively matters, it should automatically matter subjectively as well and that furthermore if something is subjectively important to the people who influence me, then it should also be subjectively important to me, though that importance need not be positive. In other words, if my friend claims X, I am bound to give it all due consideration. If my enemy declares Y, then I must also take the time to consider their declaration though my conclusions may turn out to be vastly different. If, for example, the Ushra'Khan were to make a statement concerning the Amarr Empire, and a representative of the Empire were to respond, even though neither of those organizations were directing their observations at me, my relationship with both entities necessitates that I take notice even if I take no action either way. To summarize: my criticism of Ms. Constantine's attitude is that I interpret it as being a centric one where only those things that directly influence Ms. Constantine herself should be taken note of. My attitude is that the individual should be aware of and responsive to all influences. No person is a world unto themselves: to try and behave as such is to deny a fundamental of human nature. - Verin "Stitcher" Hakatain.
Stitcher Caldari ForgeTech Industries	Posted - 2009.10.11 09:05:00 - [20] Now, Humanity as a whole thrives best on a blend of stability and conflict. You can't build a skyscraper without strong foundations, but the building will slowly start to go wrong once constructed - light fixtures will burn out, the plumbing will block or burst, terminals will glitch, air conditioning might fail - and thus the building will need to employ janitors and technicians. But that janitor's productive work day comes at the expense of somebody else's inconvenience. Such is the way of capitalism. I believe that economic behaviour is the preferred state for human behaviour. People naturally gravitate into small groups - tribes, even - of people working together and interacting with other similar groups/tribes. This interaction can be co-operative, leading to the formation of megacorporations, or it can be conflictive, as between the Federation and the State. The point of serving the greater good is not to be universally constructive, but rather to stimulate an economic growth scenario. In times of growth, companies are brought and sold, merged and liquidated. This can and does lead to inconvenience for individuals and their tribes, but so long as those people never drop below a baseline level - the "even footing" from which all people should with time and effort be able to start over - then the inconvenience is an illusion. the majority have benefited, and the individual has not really lost anything. Consider the story of the wealthy married couple who went for a gambling holiday in Perimeter. In the middle of the night, the woman couln't sleep and so she slips downstairs into the casino, cashes in an ISK and puts it all down on a roulette machine, only for her number to come up. She now has 35 ISK. so she puts that all down on another number, and yet again, it comes up her way: 1,225 ISK. Again, she lets it all ride and again, her number comes up: 42,875 ISK. Again she lets it ride, and AGAIN, her number comes up: 1.5 million ISK. She's as rich as a capsuleer now, if her luck holds she'll make more than fifty million ISK and break the bank. She lets it ride again... and loses it all. So the woman goes back upstairs to find her husband sitting up in bed watching a holo. he asks her if she won anything while she was gone. Her response? "Nah, lost one credit." - Verin "Stitcher" Hakatain.
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.10.11 09:35:00 - [21] Ms. Constantine, I took the liberty of condensing the point you made in less flowery language for ease of reference (and perhaps as a service to others): 1. Star Fraction members do not share the same principles except for the fact that that oppose nationalists 2. Star Fraction believes that space offers limitless possibilities 3. When I flew into space solar radiation made me discard what I was taught 4. I am immortal. You are immortal. We are all immortal. 5. Because we are immortal we don't need religion or states 6. If you travel in space, you can think a lot. 7. When I was young I was a spy and assasin. I regret it. 8. At one time I heard some dark language and I became a believer 9. I realized the old ways didn't work in this time and needed new knowledge 10. Because I needed new knowledge I built ships 11. The ships would carry me to the stars 12. Among the stars I could be free 13. After I was set free, I didn't care about right and wrong or ownership anymore 14. I started to believe that might makes right 15. I started fighting everyone that opposed my personal interests and worked together with those that shared my interests 16. There was a great war 17. Nothing matters if it does not matter to you, might makes right, power makes freedom 18. Only self-interest and freedom of choice matters 19. Because we can blow each other up, we don't need peace 20. I am not a pirate because I'm against piracy, I simply don't like being a pirate 21. I'm not better than anyone else, I find being 'better' than someone else meaningless 22. I seek power purely to further my self-interest 23. I prefer NRDS because it gives me the feeling I got more freedom of choice 24. I like being called an anarchist 25. Because I want freedom of choice, I will never acknowledge or support any claim that limits my freedom 26. I don't shoot neutral pilots because making friends gives me more potential power than making enemies. 27. Everything that is good for me, I support. I don't care about what is good for others. That's their job. 28. Yes, I might betray you at any time, but in practice it serves my self-interest better to have a reputation for keeping my word 29. If someone acts unselfishly, he cannot be trusted, because he rates his principles higher than any potential personal benefit 30. People don't like me because I hold them responsible, and not their principles. 31. If we wait long enough, everybody will realize what I have learned ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.10.11 09:49:00 - [22] Originally by: Jade Constantine Having just checked the figures current to this moment I can tell you monsieur Vankaalen that in the past six years of the Disapora the Free Captains of the Star Fraction have constructed an estimated 200,000 tech2 starship hulls that have been sold to capsuleers and their crews in the New Eden Star Cluster. If, according to you, one cannot place the blame one's failures on an organization (or principle or religion), it tends to follow one that one also cannot claim the successes of an organization as your own. What is your personal contribution to these build and sold ships? How mining of minerals, reacting and building of components, assembling of ships, delivering from factory lines, hauling to market, managing the sell orders did you do say last month? If you didn't do all those things yourself, I can fairly say that according to your own definition you cannot claim it as your success. To me it seems you were merely a cog in a greater machine. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Haraldhardrade Amarr Pax Amarr	Posted - 2009.10.11 10:19:00 - [23] Would it be possible to learn the untrue knowledge of the star fraction as well? Caveo of Minmatar , torva vacuus regimen of deus es plurrimi periculosus of bestia
Shirley Serious Amarr The Khanid Sisters of Athra	Posted - 2009.10.11 10:37:00 - [24] Originally by: Jade Constantine I don't recognise ad hominem as a fallacy. Why not? Yes. Yes, I am.
Darina Rea Sovereign Hospitaller Order of Saint Katherine	Posted - 2009.10.11 10:59:00 - [25] Originally by: Jade Constantine We Free Captains are fighting for what we want. You should've stopped there. Perhaps added that your cause is nothing more or less then complete open borders, as you always have. Atleast that's how I always saw the Star Fraction. This 'belief' of 'True Knowledge' is rather unsettling and also very disturbing. Keep yourself from becoming bloodthirsty crusaders please. _________ _________ Time is on our side.
Seriphyn Inhonores Gallente Eleutherian Guard	Posted - 2009.10.11 11:56:00 - [26] Originally by: Merdaneth Ms. Constantine, I took the liberty of condensing the point you made in less flowery language for ease of reference (and perhaps as a service to others) Thank you
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.11 12:20:00 - [27] Originally by: Merdaneth Very patchy and quite unreliable bulleted "summary"/critique Well Merdaneth. Since (initially) you appear to have submitted a piece of reductionist textual analysis rather than a question IÆll mark it for you. Essentially correct: 2,4,6,11,15,16,17,18,20,21,22,24,26 Some understanding: 5,7,9,12,19,25,29 Largely or totally incorrect: 1,3,8,10,13,14,23,27,28,30,31 As a general point you do poorly when you are attempting to rewrite anotherÆs words and perform especially badly when you attempt to reverse the balance of a statement (after/because). To summarise I will give you a 50% mark here on the basis of Essentially correct and Some Understanding points û but itÆs hardly enough to say you appear to understand half of what you are talking about, that doesnÆt represent a ringing endorsement. You would do well to go back and read again and I think neutral commentators interested in the subject should avoid your ôsummaryö as a flawed project. Now onto your stated general question IÆd say you have always seemed to struggle with the notion that the anarchist can freely associate with others and cooperate on general tasks of mutual interest. I know itÆs an inconvenient truth for one wishing to portray statist power-worship as the only way that individuals can cooperate in a cause but I believe my associate The Cosmopolite has already corrected you in great detail on that point in many alternative threads and IÆd encourage you to read his words again as the best remedy to your ignorance in this issue. The True Knowledge of the Star Fraction
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.11 12:39:00 - [28] Now to Stitcher, Essentially my problem with your position is twofold: In the place your conclusion that my attitude being ôselfishö / ôjade Constantine-centricö would preclude my interest in the wider universe strikes me as rather strange given the airtime I have given to my conviction that our immortality will give us quite the time and scope to consider everything as potentially within our personal interest in the long aeons we have before us. Many conflicts I and the Free Captains engage in are about our future interests not what is in front of our faces right now. Consider the example of the long campaign against the 24th Crusade as an example. The 24th represented no significant threat to our immediate safety, freedom or wealth, but we consider fighting this movement and encouraging the eventual freedom and independence of a new generation of Matari star-farers is a matter that absolutely does touch on our personal interest because we WILL live long enough to prosper alongside them or be made poorer in their absence if the 24th Crusade was to triumph and continue to enslave and dominate that people. You can certainly chide my selfish motives (I want the Matari people freed so I can sell them ships and engage in profitable commerce during the future ongoing Diaspora) û but I doubt the communities so freed from the Amarrian yoke would make too much distinction on the motive as they reach for the stars and seize a little power and freedom for the first time in their lives. As I said, this apparently barren soil of selfish pragmatism gives rise to all the truth and beauty you can eat monsieur Stitcher. And as an aside, you touched on the matters of atrocity and slavery and for me that defines as much as anything my issue with the ôgreater goodö as preached or practised in the State. Its fairly clear to any commentator that the Caldari people (as a baseline ethos) are quite opposed both to institution of slavery and the destruction of thousands by sudden depressurization of freighter transports by loyalist capsule-pilots (for example). And yet the State (speaking for the ôgreater goodö) forges alliances with the Amarr and awards such atrocities as acts of patriotism. Today most vocal Caldari nationalists are almost indistinguishable in their rhetoric from slave-owning holders û gone is any doubt on the institutions of slavery amongst their ôalliesö û because the ôgreater goodö wants the Amarrian military as allies in the war against the Federation than the ôgreater goodö is served by ignoring the billion ôlesser evilsö suffered by the Matari people still in bondage in the Amarrian dominions. In closing IÆd say I find it difficult to understand how you as a self-professed moral man are able to maintain allegiance and association with a State that has embraced a sordid alliance with slave owners and mass-murders in order to further its military interests. Where you an evil man rejoicing in the suffering of others (or coldly indifferent to such things) I would understand it completely. But here with these notions of the ôgreater goodö I wonder if you are not simply deadening your own senses and understanding to things you know to be wrong because you are not yet ready to take the leap into the True Knowledge and begin the fight you always wanted to fight. The True Knowledge of the Star Fraction
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.11 12:42:00 - [29] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 11/10/2009 12:43:50 Originally by: Haraldhardrade Would it be possible to learn the untrue knowledge of the star fraction as well? Why certainly that would be Merdaneth's Special Department I'd also advise you look up the many threads about Anarchy by Archbishop of PIE. Those are a super read if you want to learn almost nothing about the subject matter posed by a long term detractor of the Star Fraction. The True Knowledge of the Star Fraction
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.11 12:52:00 - [30] Originally by: Shirley Serious Originally by: Jade Constantine I don't recognise ad hominem as a fallacy. Why not? Two main reasons: The first is that the term has been devalued to a worthless currency by its hypocritical over use. Capsule-pilots tend to throw the term around as if it had meaning while nonetheless engaging in endless ad hominem attacks themselves (often in the same posts as the accusation is made). This is akin to a colony full of aggressive cage-fighters accusing each other of settling matters with their fists! The second is more fundamental to the philosophy I have expressed in the opening statement. I believe any argument you make is coloured and seasoned by your reputation and conduct as an individual. I judge your arguments by what I know of you. If you express a lot of idiocy and generally parrot the words of other poor commentators then I will be considering any statement you make of a generally-lower value than a statement made by an independent thinker with a history for thoughtful comment. Hence saying ôI donÆt value your opinion because you have made plain your lack of witö is precisely accurate and quite honest. In any case, attaching the merits of an argument to an individualÆs reputation is an important part of the True Knowledge as practised by the Intergalactic Summit. The True Knowledge of the Star Fraction
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.11 12:58:00 - [31] Originally by: Darina Rea Originally by: Jade Constantine We Free Captains are fighting for what we want. You should've stopped there. Perhaps added that your cause is nothing more or less then complete open borders, as you always have. Atleast that's how I always saw the Star Fraction. As I recall you have always struggled to understand the Star Fraction. It seems this continues. I'd encourage you to re-read the opening statement and ask questions about anything you are confused about. Ask for examples, clarification, whatever. Feel free. I'll be happy to end your ignorance if that is what you truly want. The True Knowledge of the Star Fraction
Jake Dreadmore Caldari JotunHeim Hird	Posted - 2009.10.11 15:30:00 - [32] Edited by: Jake Dreadmore on 11/10/2009 15:31:52 I've come to wonder if your ideas of the "grand self-illusions" havenÆt lead to your biggest oversight. Of the claim of self interest is the big thumbs up.. Well, setting aside all the depressed people, the backstabbers and disgruntled workers... Most people claiming to fight for god, state and/or freedom.. Well, I've claimed before that no one's really that unique to begin with, and I stand by that.. so maybe you arenÆt so much apart to begin with? I reckon a lot of the people serving in the empires do it for very selfish reasons.. power, glory, fame... and those who do not claim those things as their own, they do it for the warm fuzzy feeling that one gets for doing something they believe in. Some will stand down from a fight because they get to feel that they are right. Some will start a fight for the very same reason, or perhaps just to get that ôbig feelingö. Most people will do a job, get paid and win the bread, perhaps even get some small luxuries, because thatÆs what they want to do, and what they want to have. You give away that last piece of cake, despite the fact that you really want it, because you want someone else to be pleased.. or feel gratitude.. There are many examples, but simply put I donÆt believe that there is such a thing selflessness. ItÆs a term conjured to describe an action that does not visibly or materialistically provide the actor with a benefit. There is "what you want" And "how you'll get it", and some people donÆt want to just make and break shiny ships for the sake of wallet growth. Ps. I donÆt believe that Wallet growth isnÆt a worthwhile thing to do, IÆm merely trying to make a point. -Jake ôThe crazy guy who flew a 400million ISK Hulk out of 0.0 during the second Delve war and then went back to get his Ravenö Dreadmore
Tomahawk Bliss Minmatar Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.11 18:29:00 - [33] Edited by: Tomahawk Bliss on 11/10/2009 18:31:13 Well spoken. Love him or hate him, everyone has to admit Jade can certainly turn a phrase with the best of them. there is one point IÆd like to bring up about the vast supply of advanced technology produced by the Star Fraction in regards to success: The technological production of the Star Fraction remains very highly successful in relative terms of size (as SF produces a huge volume of high tech even compared to alliances 10x as large) I, personally, donÆt see that as the primary constructive success. It surely is a major tractable marker of success. I donÆt want it assumed that I disagree with that; just not the most important part to me. Indeed Star FractionÆs wealth and capabilities are further testaments that blockading and extorting space is both ineffective and not the only rout to success. to me, it is the open mind that holds pride of place in this reguard. Who can say what the exact Butterfly Effect is on a pilotÆs life when when they learn that the use of extortion for access is not the only way. Each of us here have learned the truth that territorial claims are psychological only and any of us who wish to go deep into Delve or Pure Plind or Stain and harvest for ourselves are certainly able to do so with by a modi***of planning. Even to the point of near perfect safety with these new strategic cruisers (of which Star Fraction certainly produces). Territorial claims are not reality once you get beyond the turret fall off of the Goonswarm types, save to those who choose to accept such limitations. Freespace is the reality and Star Fraction is merely fighting to help people see this truth. A truth we all* know to be true. Each of us here can go where we please and avoid the risks others choose to create in their dastardly attempts to impede us. I personally have no qualms with people putting up outposts or stations and ôclaimingö a system for their use. I support co-opts and alliances making the most of the limitless resources of this cluster. I relish the economic juggernaughts that come from cooperative industrial and exploratory efforts that harvest the available stellar bodies. But closed borders are not only wrong, they are an impossible fantasy. Technology has moved beyond guarding the castle walls when we can teleport or phase or simply speed past. The Paradigm has changed. In the end there are a few simple truths: Star Fraction is good for pilots and trade and security, NRDS means safety and isk and access to high tech goods for you and an often comical death for the idiot pirates that plague your space. FreeSpace is good for pilots and trade and security, a wider world experience only heightens the effectiveness of the individual as drones make poor allies. Regressives can not stop any pod pilot who has the will to succeed, so why bend to their whims? Basically...get over the fantasy of total domination and embrace the benefits of evolution.
Jakiin Amarr	Posted - 2009.10.11 18:36:00 - [34] Originally by: Jade Constantine I disagree, I believe most of the nationalists worship power. Behind the talk of "greater good", "nationalism", "the people", "the state", "god's will" and whatever other abstraction you want to place on personal servitude there is the essence of power-worship. You believe something is more important than yourself and you believe you can improve your position in the hierarchy of power-worshippers by being a better sychophant and being noticed by those in a superior position. It is true that we believe there to be something more important than ourselves, however the second assertion is on a case-per-case basis: There are some who serve this purpose to get promoted, but there are also many who get promoted because of their service to the purpose. In the most technical sense you are correct: We have generally been told that by showing devotion to the purpose we can expect to advance in rank. However to assume that this is the sole motivator to show devotion to the purpose for all who participate in it is a very simplistic view that does discredit to a great many people. It would be like if I were to assume that you say what you say only for personal power and a good number of loyal followers, and by extension that all who follow you only do what they do in order to advance in whatever ranking system it is you have. That would, however, be arrogant of me. I must assume that you do what you do because you believe in the cause that you serve, otherwise we would never be able to come to any diplomatic conclusion. [Quote]Not while it is being worshipped it isn't. Those above you may be using power as a tool (over you) but in doing so the power itself demands worship from those in the hierarchy. To be free of this mess you cannot be deluding yourself with notions of good or authority beyond yourself and your own personal interests. Ah, so from this definition, allowing anyone to have power over me is to worship power. Forgive me if I have misunderstood (Which I pray I have), but doesn't that just mean that anyone who follows orders from a superior is worshipping power? I think perhaps you have decided to use a hyperbole rather than a more accurate term: Power respect. We respect that the goals we believe in require a structured society to accomplish. [Quote]At this point some examination of actual power-structures may be useful since it is clear we will not find common ground on the discussion of abstractions. That you are actively looking for common ground is a pleasant surprise. [Quote]I'd also counsel you to be a little more thick-skinned on the issue of "personal attacks". I don't recognise ad hominem as a fallacy and I since I'm holding you entirely responsible for your opinions you should expect me to assess your behaviour past and present as a vital factor in the validity of your points. If an idiot makes an excellent argument, than his points are no less valid. On a more related level, the way in which you often define what is a good point or not seems to depend far more on whether you agree with the argument or not than it does how well presented the argument is. This tends to make your replies sound condescending, which makes it difficult for others to respond to your own arguments without painting them all with the arrogant image of you they develop. One thing which you cannot be faulted on is your image being iconic. What it is iconic for, however, is. not often something I think you want it to. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jakiin Holder Heir of the Kingdom 'Pacifist Reclaimer'
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.10.11 19:07:00 - [35] Edited by: Merdaneth on 11/10/2009 19:11:38 "Nothing matters unless it matters to you." Different things matter to different people. What matters most to a mother might be different than what matters to a CEO of a large firm. What matters most to a soldier is different from a farmer. What matters most to ms. Constantine is freedom of choice. She also perceives this freedom of choice to be most threatened by so-called imperialist powers. Her solution to maximize her freedom of choice is to gain as much power as she can, both in terms of social influence as in terms of cash and military hardware. Ms. Constantine makes it appear that freedom of choice is the natural thing for everyone that is only concerned with their own interest to want. This is not true. For a new mother the continued survival and happiness of her newborn child might matter most, not freedom of choice. Two people in love might voluntarily give up their freedom of having several sexual partners. That is the first fallacy, freedom of choice is not automatically the topmost thing everyone wants when considering what matters most to them. The second fallacy is the fallacy of power. Ms. Constantine strives for power (social, economic and military) as a tool to guarantee her the maximum freedom of choice. This is hardly the only tool available to maximize freedom of choice, let alone the only tool to achieve the 'things that matter to us', since those may be different for everyone. Also, power is also a relative term, for one to be powerful, another needs to be weak. If ms. Constantine boasts about reputation, combat skills or industrial productions, she mentions it in relation to other pod pilots. In short: self-interest = freedom of choice = power is not the only possible progression of desires. As Ms. Constantine sketched in her oration, she once served the imperialist powers. But at some time she heard a dark language: "a language of fear and protectionism, of suspicion and parochialism, a language of warning and terror". Of course, she means this metaphorically, there was no actual language spoken, it was her perception of the state's functioning. Why would she perceive a state's functioning as one of fear and terror? Obviously, since we are speaking about her perception, it is reasonable to assume ms. Constantine was afraid and projected her fear on her surroudings. Afraid of what you ask? Afraid of the state. Afraid that the state would deny her what mattered most to her, freedom of choice. She reacted as only a creature born of fear and terror could: she went about acquiring as much power as she could. She felt threatened by people with more power than her, and her answer was to simply become more powerful than those who threatened her, become so powerful so that rather then her fearing the state, the state would begin to fear her. Might makes right, power makes freedom, that is what she beliefs, and coming from a capsuleer with the power she has, it makes sense. Nonetheless, she has become the mirror-image of the state she feared. Where she once heard a dark language of terror, she now speaks the dark language of terror herself. Might makes right, nothing matters in this universe if it doesn't matters to her. I know, it is enough to make people have Nightmares when someone with the power to call down a Titan's doomsday one your planet is saying it. People also need to realize that while today she is still true to her word, it is only because she isn't so powerful that she can afford to break her word. If she does gain that power she will (must even) brea her word. For she believes anyone who would not break their word when it is to their own self-interest to do so, is unreliable and foolish. I wonder what room there is in ms. Constantine's fear-filled world for something as selfless as love? ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.10.11 19:20:00 - [36] A good indication of how the Amarr Empire handles very powerful people who use their power solely for furthering their self-interest and only doing things that matter to them, I submit to you the following story. The Speaker of Truths The man in this story was a powerful man, one of the most powerful in the Empire, and by extension one of the most powerful in New Eden. He has more wealth, more reputation, more isk and more military hardware at his beck and call than ms. Constantine. Still, he was humbled. Humbled by a man that did not wield vast power, did not have a vast fleet as his command and only few had heard of him. Today, this powerful man has remembered what it means to have power. Having power means one should should be less concerned with self-interest, and more concerned with the interests of the less powerful. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.11 19:22:00 - [37] Originally by: Merdaneth "Nothing matters unless it matters to you." I wonder what room there is in ms. Constantine's fear-filled world for something as selfless as love? You have answered your own question. The True Knowledge of the Star Fraction
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.10.11 19:43:00 - [38] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Merdaneth "Nothing matters unless it matters to you." I wonder what room there is in ms. Constantine's fear-filled world for something as selfless as love? You have answered your own question. You mean to imply that there can be a thing that might trump your search for 'freedom of choice' and for 'power'. You see a possibility in the future you would give these up for love? ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.11 21:58:00 - [39] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 11/10/2009 21:59:28 Originally by: Merdaneth You mean to imply ... cuts off the Amarrian pilot with a dismissive gesture. What I mean I say. You do not get to interpret my words and be heard. If you wish to debate entirely with yourself I suggest you get a room to yourself. The True Knowledge of the Star Fraction
Darina Rea Sovereign Hospitaller Order of Saint Katherine	Posted - 2009.10.11 22:25:00 - [40] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Darina Rea Originally by: Jade Constantine We Free Captains are fighting for what we want. You should've stopped there. Perhaps added that your cause is nothing more or less then complete open borders, as you always have. Atleast that's how I always saw the Star Fraction. As I recall you have always struggled to understand the Star Fraction. It seems this continues. I'd encourage you to re-read the opening statement and ask questions about anything you are confused about. Ask for examples, clarification, whatever. Feel free. I'll be happy to end your ignorance if that is what you truly want. Oh, that struggle is as good as finished. I don't agree with the pragmatism of it, but the goal to achieve is pretty clear. If you feel that I continue to misunderstand your explanation after your explanation, it's not just me that fails to catch the point, but you fail aswell to properly and clearly express your point, in equal measure or perhaps more, because you're the one trying to explain something in the first place? Or teach rather, since you're trying to take up the role of enlightened teacher apparently. I'll be happy - and more then able - to understand anything clear. _________ _________ Time is on our side.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.11 23:06:00 - [41] Originally by: Darina Rea If you feel that I continue to misunderstand your explanation after your explanation, it's not just me that fails to catch the point, but you fail aswell to properly and clearly express your point, in equal measure or perhaps more, because you're the one trying to explain something in the first place? Or teach rather, since you're trying to take up the role of enlightened teacher apparently. I'll be happy - and more then able - to understand anything clear. If you don't understand something then ask a question. Be my guest. The True Knowledge of the Star Fraction
Tomahawk Bliss Minmatar Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.11 23:16:00 - [42] Originally by: Jade Constantine What I mean I say. That is an immutable fact of reality.
Darina Rea Sovereign Hospitaller Order of Saint Katherine	Posted - 2009.10.12 00:04:00 - [43] Edited by: Darina Rea on 12/10/2009 00:04:30 Here's a single question. Given this explanation: Originally by: Jade The True Knowledge of the Star Fraction is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom. You are free to do whatever is in your power and if you want to increase your power you had better do whatever is in your interest. All that you really value, all the goodness and truth and beauty of life, all the poetry and artful words have their roots in this pragmatism. The crusade matters to the Ammarian crusader. Might makes it possible for him to go on the crusade. He will execute his crusade to the best of his abilities, thus by destroying his enemies, or converting them to his faith, or subjugating them to Amarrian rule. He is doing everything following the definition set, yet he is a follower of True Knowledge. He an Amarrian. The fight for freedom matter to a Minmatar Freedom fighter. Might makes it possible for him to attack the Amarrians. He will try to destroy as much of the Amarrian Empire that's possible, either by outright killing them, bombing planets to the stoneage or by any other means neccesary, yet he is not a follower of True Knowledge. He is a Minmatar. Trade matters to the Caldari and Gallente industrialists. Might makes it possible to prevent their rivals to even get the product to a market nearby, making it thus very profitable to destroy them. So the traders hire mercenaries to kill their rivals. To protect 'their' markets. Neither is a follower of the True Knowledge. They just follow what makes the most profit. There are probably more examples you can think of. Why do you think that capsuleers will end up at this mythical True Knowledge as you see it? _________ _________ Time is on our side.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.12 01:12:00 - [44] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 12/10/2009 01:13:17 Originally by: Darina Rea Why do you think that capsuleers will end up at this mythical True Knowledge as you see it? I don't think capsule pilots will end up at a "mythical" True Knowledge at all. There is absolutely nothing mythical about it. The key to the True Knowledge is extremely simple and precisely pragmatic. Do not use the Merdaneth school of word-twisting, it will not serve you here. As for why I believe in the long run most will end up with this understanding? Simple observation and awareness of human nature. Take the most apparently self-abasing religious fanatic in the capsuleer caste of the Amarrian nationalist movement and allow him the freedom to challenge himself and others in battles of wit and deadly war-arts and it doesn't take long before he begins to love the fighting more than his scriptures and counts his pride in achievement and self-belief before his faith in his inherited mythology. The crusader is gone and the man emerges. I have seen this pattern repeated many times. There is a reason why some of the greatest friends and allies of the Star Fraction were once our enemies and deadly foes. Individuals strive and contend against each other to prove their power and hone their skills. The True Knowledge strips away the false illusions of submission to authority figures and statist principle and leaves nothing but the wealth of capable individualism and a future unfettered by the flawed morality of the past. The longer we live the more we come to trust ourselves and our own instincts. Our allies multiply and our enemies wither on the vine. Have you never wondered why the Star Fraction rarely loses wars? Why are we so successful in space combat? In trade? In industry? In everything we accomplish? And then why are our foes such toothless galnet dotards incapable of action in space? Why are those that condemn the Fraction such universally pathetic figures cutting tragic lines of bathos in their self-wallowing pity? The answer is childishly simple: Our ideology wins the friendship of the capable and alienates only the weak. I count amongst my allies the bravest and most capable warriors of the star cluster whereas amongst the ranks of my enemies I see only dogs and cowards. If my words were false surely I'd be humbled and broken not triumphant and unchallenged in battle? This too is a part of the True Knowledge. We choose our friends carefully even as they choose us in return. The True Knowledge of the Star Fraction
Jakiin Amarr	Posted - 2009.10.12 05:46:00 - [45] Originally by: Jade Constantine And then why are our foes such toothless galnet dotards incapable of action in space? Why are those that condemn the Fraction such universally pathetic figures cutting tragic lines of bathos in their self-wallowing pity? My favourite part of Ms. Constantine's work is her tireless efforts against self-delusion. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jakiin Holder Heir of the Kingdom 'Pacifist Reclaimer'
Hooch Flux Caldari	Posted - 2009.10.12 11:23:00 - [46] Originally by: Jade Constantine The True Knowledge of the Star Fraction "Something" Is it that time of year again? I say prep for dustoff, nuke the site from orbit... Only way to be sure!
Nur AlHuda Amarr Callide Vulpis	Posted - 2009.10.12 11:35:00 - [47] Edited by: Nur AlHuda on 12/10/2009 11:35:53 This is unreadable. Next thread posted by JC should be edited by someone from SF. (Now common seriously.) So many funny things i didnt read for a long time. If only 1/8 would be true amarr militia and caldari would be already wasted. Either by simultanous wardecs or solo by SF. Another comedy value was numbers of sold ship. Selling ships to your enemies way to go :) As you cant control the market most of the ships was probably directly sold to the enemies of SF as nearly everyone hates SF. The op shows prime example advanced level of megalomany on alliance level. To get SF in picture without progapaganda we just need to look on their teamwork . How they work together ,how they help each other and what they achieved so far:
Gebher'el Amarr 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2009.10.12 11:37:00 - [48] Edited by: Gebher''el on 12/10/2009 11:37:44 This entire long and boring piece of crap, oops I mean material can be condensed quite easily.. Originally by: Jade Constantine Look at me look at me, I am so important look at me YAWN... Oh that again... Rejoice not against me, O mine enemy: when I fall, I shall arise; when I sit in darkness, God will be a light unto me.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.12 11:49:00 - [49] Originally by: Jakiin My favourite part of Ms. Constantine's work is her tireless efforts against self-delusion. And yet the prediction comes true, here on this very thread we begin to see defeated foes, toothless galnet mockeries and strange shuffling dead-eyed victims of past conflict. Such things are inevitable.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.12 11:55:00 - [50] Originally by: Nur AlHuda To get SF in picture without progapaganda we just need to look on their teamwork . How they work together ,how they help each other and what they achieved so far: Your graph lists the metric of alliance "rank" by numbers of pilots signed up to each entity. Are you really saying you believe the Goonswarm alliance can actually put 5000 pilots in space applied to a task? Or perhaps you do believe that raw numbers of signed up pilots equals power. In either case I pity you Nur AlHuda. You remain quite ignorant. Quality defeats quantity as we've been showing over the last year as around a hundred Free Captains have consistently humiliated the 3000 24th Crusaders in the conflict zone. Your graph might have suggested otherwise but our results in space show the outcome quite clearly. Now then, I'd advise you to go back and read and then come back with questions if you are confused. I'll do my best to enlighten you.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.12 11:58:00 - [51] Originally by: Gebher'el pitiful mewling noises interspaced with misty-eyed begging that quite honestly demeans us both Just don't
Nur AlHuda Amarr Callide Vulpis	Posted - 2009.10.12 12:00:00 - [52] Edited by: Nur AlHuda on 12/10/2009 12:00:30 Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Nur AlHuda To get SF in picture without progapaganda we just need to look on their teamwork . How they work together ,how they help each other and what they achieved so far: Your graph lists the metric of alliance "rank" by numbers of pilots signed up to each entity. Are you really saying you believe the Goonswarm alliance can actually put 5000 pilots in space applied to a task? Or perhaps you do believe that raw numbers of signed up pilots equals power. In either case I pity you Nur AlHuda. You remain quite ignorant. Quality defeats quantity as we've been showing over the last year as around a hundred Free Captains have consistently humiliated the 3000 24th Crusaders in the conflict zone. Your graph might have suggested otherwise but our results in space show the outcome quite clearly. Now then, I'd advise you to go back and read and then come back with questions if you are confused. I'll do my best to enlighten you. Wrong Jade. The graph shows number of your operations and their success and evaluate overall success. Also SF flies quality ships and setups so yes quality defeats quantity but bad for you it was SF ships that were overrun by quantity of others
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.12 12:09:00 - [53] Originally by: Nur AlHuda Wrong Jade. The graph shows number of your operations and their success and evaluate overall success. In which case its simple nonsense that you made up on the back of a beermat in whatever station we were camping you inside at the time then. Seems I credited you with a little more capacity than you possess. Quote: Also SF flies quality ships and setups so yes quality defeats quantity but bad for you it was SF ships that were overrun by quantity of others In which of your vivid holofantasy suites did this happen in? True Knowledge
Gebher'el Amarr 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2009.10.12 12:16:00 - [54] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Gebher'el pitiful mewling noises interspaced with misty-eyed begging that quite honestly demeans us both Just don't Easiest response to truth as always... BTW the mewling was actually spewing and the misty eye was from the froce of the vomiting. The begging was for the crap fest to end. With that in mind I will now abandon this thread so as tgo no longer feed the media ****... Rejoice not against me, O mine enemy: when I fall, I shall arise; when I sit in darkness, God will be a light unto me.*
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.12 12:19:00 - [55] Originally by: Gebher'el Easiest response to truth as always... Oh I am so sorry. Did misrepresenting your quote offend the clearly well-developed sense of integrity and fair play that led you to well ... misrepresent my quote about five minutes before? Sauce for the goose old fruit. If you want a knife fight don't be surprised when you find a blade in your stomach. Quote: With that in mind I will now abandon this thread so as to no longer feed the media *****... Too easy. True Knowledge
Nur AlHuda Amarr Callide Vulpis	Posted - 2009.10.12 12:19:00 - [56] Nearly everyone knows how to obtain that graph by himself its not that hard. Im just sorry for you that even in light of undeniable evidence you are completly blind. And yes Star Fraction will never die as long as you keep posting. It will just fade and its much worse then death.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.12 12:32:00 - [57] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 12/10/2009 12:32:10 Originally by: Nur AlHuda Nearly everyone knows how to obtain that graph by himself its not that hard. Im just sorry for you that even in light of undeniable evidence you are completly blind. And yes Star Fraction will never die as long as you keep posting. It will just fade and its much worse then death. While Callide Vulpis will glide on angel's wings to the glory of universal achievement and transcending glory I suppose? Really Nur, your comments might have a little more weight if we hadn't crushed you utterly in the first war we fought and scattered your courage to such an extent your couldn't find it again despite your public claims to the contrary. Since you fled from the fighting we've destroyed (roughly) another 300 Crusader ships worth around 25 billion isk. We've continued to crush your one-time allies and rendered the 24th incapable of functioning successfully in heavy-hulled vessels. Your "undeniable evidence" seems a little flawed. But then you Amarrian-nationalists are very good at believing fairy-tales. True Knowledge
Nur AlHuda Amarr Callide Vulpis	Posted - 2009.10.12 12:51:00 - [58] Edited by: Nur AlHuda on 12/10/2009 12:53:47 1. If someone kills t1 ships he is free to doing so as it provides training for people who dont look at local. 2. You never claimed victory. Neither did i couse when we were out you got 2 people in kamela. Almost all our losses happened in empire to newbies. So to the "crushing" we are still active in militia. And your highly emotive op post is result of your rage when you got camped some day ago by one of the militia members and we had very good laugh in militia about it. So keep your fantasies comming as amarr militia is killing your alliance. Ofc i cant forgot Absinth and NoMercy which are the main reason why your alliance has such a bad performance.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.12 12:57:00 - [59] Originally by: Nur AlHuda You never claimed victory. Actually I just did. You were crushed like a dog. Now take your medicine. True Knowledge
Sinjin Mokk Amarr	Posted - 2009.10.12 12:58:00 - [60] Ms Constantine, You make some very interesting points. I admire the wisdom you have gained over the years. However, I highly doubt any of us will be here as we are within a thousand years, let alone a million. Nothing lasts forever and immortality is always illlusory. It is nice to think that we will have such longevity, but I don't think we have the mental capacity to reamin human and be able to process that wealth of information. To be able to store that much experiance would neccesitate a transition to something beyond what is known as post-human (or infomorph or however you wish to call it). Perhaps the vestiges of what we are would survive, but not our humanity. If, as you say, we are immortal, then why bother to engage in the construction of ships, the development of enemies and the attempts to end thier immortality? Something to consider? May God be with you. Pray!
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.12 13:22:00 - [61] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 12/10/2009 13:37:07 Originally by: Sinjin Mokk Ms Constantine, You make some very interesting points. I admire the wisdom you have gained over the years. Thank you. Quote: However, I highly doubt any of us will be here as we are within a thousand years, let alone a million. Nothing lasts forever and immortality is always illlusory. It is nice to think that we will have such longevity, but I don't think we have the mental capacity to reamin human and be able to process that wealth of information. To be able to store that much experiance would neccesitate a transition to something beyond what is known as post-human (or infomorph or however you wish to call it). Perhaps the vestiges of what we are would survive, but not our humanity. Interesting perspective and to a degree I would agree, we will change ourselves and improve the biological hardware our minds inhabit certainly. But as for existential concerns of our self and humanity I have to say many of us alive today have already experienced such moments of doubt and crisis from the earliest days of the Disapora. For example. The Jade Constantine who worked for Federation Intelligence and founded Jericho Fraction within her first hours of starflight died in Venal over six years ago. I remember her dying in the wreckage of her Blackbird class cruiser and wondering what comes next as the burning scanner and poison copied and deleted her consciousness under the light of distant suns. Yet today we have evolved into creatures of parallel consciousness with enhanced replication of genetic material and capsuleers themselves have access to the technology of cloning and regeneration without the involvement of baseline authority. I (me) the essence that makes me an individual has already transcended the purely physical but I will still know a single death one day while the collected experience and knowledge of my identity continues. Perhaps some of our kind will take to infinite life extension techniques in the flesh or have the mindstates uploaded to crystal-matrix storage and seek infinite continuity of life - but I'm of the belief that parallel consciousness/serial-immortality works well for us now with each new segment of life refreshing the union of mind and spirit. Quote: If, as you say, we are immortal, then why bother to engage in the construction of ships, the development of enemies and the attempts to end thier immortality? Life is about conflict. We grow and strive and learn and better ourselves through conflict. Whether it be "peaceful" conflict of trade and economics, of art and media projection, or whether it be violent conflict with weapons and war-arts. We build our freedom through our power and enhance both through the practise of contention. I do not try to end my opponent's immortality. From my perspective there is continuity regardless. From theirs? Perhaps the new clone will have learned from the mistakes of the old and we do have eternity to try these lessons again. But ultimately its as I've said earlier. Life is a process of development and many will come to understand the True Knowledge when they have tired of nationalist delusion and waken past the rot of hierarchy and incestuous power worship. True Knowledge
The Cosmopolite Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.12 13:54:00 - [62] Edited by: The Cosmopolite on 12/10/2009 13:56:09 Originally by: Nur AlHuda Nearly everyone knows how to obtain that graph by himself its not that hard. Im just sorry for you that even in light of undeniable evidence you are completly blind. And yes Star Fraction will never die as long as you keep posting. It will just fade and its much worse then death. You're abusing that graph and its measure, and you know it. It shows relative ranking compared to all registered capsuleer alliances in the cluster. We've dropped 10 ranks from 100 to 110. This is supposed to dismay us? Seriously? It means 10 other alliances somewhere have been doing even better than us in relative terms over the period that they have gone above us in the rankings. Frankly, good luck to them. Importantly, given it is a relative measure, we could have improved in the period and still the graph would be as you reproduce so long as 10 others had done even better than us. Meanwhile, we are ahead of thousands of other entities in the rankings. I really am scratching my head as to why you think this is a killer blow in propaganda terms. Now, personally, I don't really care that much about an abstract measure such as that but, clearly, you put some stock in it so let's have a look, first alliances, where do we stand? Well, let's see. Ushra'Khan #14 CVA #25 The Star Fraction #110 The Fourth District #318 GoonSwarm #1,088 Vigilia Valeria #2,575 Aegis Militia #3,077 Not that I think this measure is that meaningful, but I am not sure I have a problem with the Star Fraction's ranking within it. Now, let's look at corporations and compare Jericho Fraction. I find it a little problematic as we fly as an alliance, not as a corporation, but I'm not going to compare alliance to corporation as that would be dishonest and I'll just take the ranking as it is and look at a few entities: PIE Inc. #180 Tribal Liberation Force #200 Absinthe Brothers Consortium #304 Jericho Fraction #319 Caldari Independent Navy Reserve #378 24th Imperial Crusade #394 Callide Vulpis #1,243 1st Praetorian Guard #1,476 Deus Imperiosus Acies #1,723 No.Mercy #2,209 Additionally, the rankings appear to go down at least as low as 13,000. As I say, given the measure is an abstraction of relative specific and limited activity (ie. pure combat statistics) across all entities in EVE, it means nothing much to me but I do fail to see the problem when it comes to us. However, in your own terms, you have some work to do. As propaganda and, presumably, an attempt to demoralise us, this is a very sad and weak effort. The Cosmopolite The Star Fraction Communications Portal
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.12 14:43:00 - [63] Originally by: The Cosmopolite Ushra'Khan #14 CVA #25 The Star Fraction #111 The Fourth District #318 GoonSwarm #1,088 Vigilia Valeria #2,575 Aegis Militia #3,077 Hang on, so Nur is actually using a graph that shows Star Fraction is ranked 977 places above the biggest alliance in the Star Cluster in terms of combat efficiency and using that as "evidence" to show we are somehow failing at something? Well I've seen a lot of bad propaganda from the Amarrian bloc in my years as Star Fraction executor but this one is beginning to look quite worthy of adding to the address books. Hilarious really. True Knowledge
The Cosmopolite Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.12 14:59:00 - [64] Originally by: Jade Constantine Hang on, so Nur is actually using a graph that shows Star Fraction is ranked 977 places above the biggest alliance in the Star Cluster in terms of combat efficiency and using that as "evidence" to show we are somehow failing at something? Well I've seen a lot of bad propaganda from the Amarrian bloc in my years as Star Fraction executor but this one is beginning to look quite worthy of adding to the address books. Hilarious really. Actually, I made an error in consulting the data resource in question, mistaking a false data artefact entry for the actual GoonSwarm alliance, and the ranking of GoonSwarm is actually #3,204. (As an amusing sidelight, the mighty GoonFleet corporation ranks #81,133.) My apologies to Vigilia Valeria and Aegis Militia, my original post is corrected in their favour. Hilarious but what ultimately does it mean? The Cosmopolite The Star Fraction Communications Portal
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.12 15:06:00 - [65] Originally by: The Cosmopolite Hilarious but what ultimately does it mean? The Cosmopolite Well it means one thing. According to this mighty respository for capsuleer combat data that appears to be worshipped as the font of all wisdom by the 24th Crusade I've discovered the relative combat ranking of Jade Constantine and Nur Alhuda. Now I won't go into details but suffice to say the number of ranks separating us at the moment (in my favour) is ... over 9000! You really do have to laugh. True Knowledge
Spyra Gryra Cruoris Seraphim Exalted.	Posted - 2009.10.12 15:18:00 - [66] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: The Cosmopolite Hilarious but what ultimately does it mean? The Cosmopolite Well it means one thing. According to this mighty respository for capsuleer combat data that appears to be worshipped as the font of all wisdom by the 24th Crusade I've discovered the relative combat ranking of Jade Constantine and Nur Alhuda. Now I won't go into details but suffice to say the number of ranks separating us at the moment (in my favour) is ... over 9000! You really do have to laugh. Jade, you got flava. I'll give you that. My corp and alliance are the very best pvpers in the entire history of video games.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.12 15:33:00 - [67] Originally by: Spyra Gryra Jade, you got flava. I'll give you that. Ah Spyra, sometimes you have to smile at the efforts these nationalist children trying so hard to fight the propaganda wars. Anyway, enough of that. Lets get back to the subject at hand. Anymore questions on the True Knowledge ladies and gents? True Knowledge
Darina Rea Sovereign Hospitaller Order of Saint Katherine	Posted - 2009.10.12 16:07:00 - [68] Originally by: Jade Constantine Anymore questions on the True Knowledge ladies and gents? I would say, without question. Also thanks for the previous answer, it's atleast clear to read. Quote: Our ideology wins the friendship of the capable and alienates only the weak. I count amongst my allies the bravest and most talented warriors of the star cluster whereas amongst the ranks of my enemies I see only dogs and cowards. My friends are the greatest builders and star-struck dreamers who manufacture Titan's beneath the noses of sleeping giants. My enemies scrabble in the dirt for a pitance-wage discarded from the imperialist table. These things don't happen by accident. If my words were false surely I'd be humbled, broken and destitute, not triumphant and unchallenged in battles of production and violence both? Also, thanks for the question. The answer seems simple, but I like to look at things from different perspectives, untill the puzzle pieces start to click together as it were. Analyze, define, conclude, reiterate, analyze, define, conclude, etcetera. Do I get tired of it? Sometimes. Will I ever get a final conclusion? Never. As a final conclusion means that there is no change, no growth, or decline. Different possibilities are a set corner of the universe. Hence my earlier question, why is the True Knowledge the inevitable answer? You can probably already see the conflict. I don't think there is such an answer, just something or somethings that seem to be it. It's abit like the two Gallente who set out to buy a suit on the Crystal Boulevard. When they returned home they both had an awesome suit, bought at a different store, for a different price, from a different saleman, and they were both happy with it. I've reached the, tentative, conclusion that the Star Fraction's ideology is an answer. A possibility. Things that work at as drawback are that it, almost by default, alienates a large portion of all capsuleers present in space. Some are attracted, most are rejected. This in itself makes the ideology a poor choice as sole survivor, because there will always be capsuleers who fall on the other side of the line and then band together for their common goal. To which the followers of the Star Fraction's ideology will probably say, you're doing it wrong and place a wardec. So all in all, it's a nice ideology, and the Star Fraction is doing it's best to make it a reality I gues, but I'll never am going to agree with you that after a million years being in space I'm subscribing to it. Mostly because I have an alternative that I personally subscribe to as passionately as you do to yours. Ironically one of the examples I'd put forward of a corporation with a similar strong idealogical backbone would be PIE Inc. I'm not sure which corporation is the older one, but both are equally ancient and still strong going. Last question. What made you call it True Knowledge? It was what made me read this in the first place, drawn by the impossibility that the Star Fraction suddenly turned over to Sansha's Nation. _________ _________ Time is on our side.
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.10.12 16:08:00 - [69] It saddens me that ms. Constantine and The Cosmopolite put this much effort in debating (incomplete) battle statistics instead of answering questions about the original post. Originally by: Jade Constantine Anymore questions on the True Knowledge ladies and gents? I have asked several. You either ignored my questions, or refused to give me a straight answer. You prefer to continue talking about battle statistics? ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.12 16:16:00 - [70] Originally by: Merdaneth I have asked several. You either ignored my questions, or refused to give me a straight answer. Rather you failed to ask a straight question Amarrian. I am not prepared to discuss with you while you are twisting words, misquoting and generally behaving in an intellectually-dishonest fashion. Ask simple questions. Do not attempt to reinterpret other people's words and statements. Address what is spoken to you not what you want to hear - then you might us prepared to pay you more attention. True Knowledge
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.12 16:58:00 - [71] Darina Rea, The ôTrue Knowledgeö is a very old joke amongst anarchist thinkers, it sounds like just the kind of terrifying absolutist conviction of faith beloved of power-worshippers and hierarchs while speaking nothing but a simple truth we all know in our instincts and our bones. I didnÆt name it any more than anyone can lay claim to the word ôfreedomö or pretend ownership of any other philosophical concept.IÆll acknowledge I played the term for shock value and rather hoped people might wonder and reach of the same false expectations you found. The message must seduce by passion or presence. Where the True Knowledge has its utility is in the individual divesting themselves of those lies and illusions and false pretence that would otherwise hinder themselves and others from doing what they truly desire and living the lives they seek. See, I believe the human being is an essentially selfish creature, but that doesnÆt necessarily make it an evil creature (or a good one) û such terms are entirely subjective. I do think that being honest about oneÆs drives and ambitions is more likely to lead to positive and production actions than being deluded or actively deceitful about oneÆs intentions and understandings though. Take as an example on the intergalactic summit at the moment the latest of ArchbishopÆs sermonÆs û in one sentence he declares himself a slaver and a tyrant û while in the next he condemns the ôviolenceö of those we dare to resist his reclaiming instincts. This is insanity. Archbishop as a creature would be considerably healthier if he simply accepted his fetish for domination games and hired an appropriate professional for his sessions. He is clearly in a high state of sexual frustration and needs to release his energies and drives in a positive direction. All this talk of religion and reclaiming and master-race claptrap is falling apart around his ears and its quite honestly saddening to watch. You see what I mean? The True Knowledge tells us itÆs natural to want whatever makes us happy but it counsels us to do whatÆs in our interest. Archbishop loves the thought of dominating others û he loves the garbs of his pretend religion, he sees himself a stern father teaching wayward children their scripture by crop and chains and punishment pens. But if Archbishop set out to do these things in space heÆd be blown to bits in a moment because heÆs frankly a terrible combat pilot. If he set out on the concourse of a space-station to ôreclaimö some passing Brutor tourists for his bdsm games then theyÆd probably knock his teeth out. But letÆs apply the universal acid of the True Knowledge to ArchbishopÆs predicament and see the sexual desire separated from the religious nonsense and concentrate on the ôpowerö he does possess. Now I understand Archbishop is something of an industrialist on the side, he is quite good at building tech1 ships û excellent! So he can use his isk to hire professionals to stage gauche cult orgies at which he can play the stern whip-master and dominator-supreme and everyone is happier. The professionals get paid, Archbishop gets his rocks off and the star cluster has one less horny nutcase with a robe and confessor habit to contend with on the intergalactic summit. Eventually he'd become a reformed character and might in time become the sort of chap you wouldn't automatically avoid at dinner party. There is progress! True Knowledge
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.12 17:04:00 - [72] But I digress Ultimately the True Knowledge is nothing more than being honest with yourself and once you become clearer about your own motivations youÆll find youÆre able to be far more honest and straightforward with the rest of humanity. Take your own point about Star Fraction ideology ôalienatingö a large portion of all capsuleers in space. Why for even a moment do you even believe that? Because you feel threatened by it perhaps? Or maybe an Amarrian zealot has ranted about us? I ask because what you said is simply not true. You may doubt my words but I assure you the Star Fraction is by no means an unpopular name amongst successful capsule-pilots across the length and breadth of New Eden. A tiny minority in the un-evolved nationalist caste speaks loudly against us. But that is all it is û words without substance. But you see how easily a person can become confused and befuddled in the authority-structures of others, in the propaganda and lies, in the manipulations and spiels and to what end? All you and I have to speak of between ourselves as two sovereign individuals can be broken down to ôwhat matters to you?ö If itÆs the same as what matters to me then we might cooperate and profit from the arrangement. If it threatens my interests we might fight with power against power. But why talk of what doesnÆt matter? ThereÆs a universe out there to be explored and a universe of things to be discovered. DonÆt waste your time with lies no matter how carefully-crafted the moral framework around them. This is why we find it so incredibly easy to trade profitably with others. Perhaps jealously at our trade success demands the slurs against our name common to the nationalist community? Who knows, but pour a little True Knowledge on the expenditure of effort involved in claiming the Star Fraction is "unpopular" and see what you reveal... nothing. No isk, no profit, no advantage in war. So what's the point of it all? And thats my point. These people waste their effort and resources fruitlessly on the delusion of nationalist dogma and those things perceived to be important and valuable turn out ... otherwise. If an enemy wants to hurt me they need to hurt my power as simply slandering an irrelevancy achieves nothing but light entertainment. True Knowledge
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.10.12 17:32:00 - [73] Originally by: Darina Rea So all in all, it's a nice ideology, and the Star Fraction is doing it's best to make it a reality I gues, but I'll never am going to agree with you that after a million years being in space I'm subscribing to it. Mostly because I have an alternative that I personally subscribe to as passionately as you do to yours. Ironically one of the examples I'd put forward of a corporation with a similar strong idealogical backbone would be PIE Inc. I'm not sure which corporation is the older one, but both are equally ancient and still strong going. What I personally wonder about is how much Star Fraction is a personality cult. In those periods ms. Constantine was away, I rarely saw the Fraction launch new propaganda or military campaigns and their fleet activity seemed much more subdued. CEO Constantine has been steady at the helm for many years, is the Fraction stability largely her influence? PIE has seen a lot more changes in leadership over the years than the Fraction has. I wonder how much time it would take for the Fraction to fracture if ms. Constantine was removed from the picture. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Havohej Minmatar Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.12 17:56:00 - [74] It is the nature of The Star Fraction that certain strong personalities shine in the foreground. This is the case in all social groups, no matter how large, and in an alliance whose ideology is built almost entirely on the idea of an individual's sovereignty, I think the power of such personalities is at once magnified and altered by the gravity of those around it. Here, the power of the individual personality is encouraged and allowed to grow. As such, if Miss Constantine ever did leave The Star Fraction, there would very much be a void left in her place. However, there are dozens of personalities with just as much merit as hers who believe very strongly in the idealistic foundation of the alliance and would quite easily fill that "power vacuum" and the alliance - the ideal - would endure. The behavior of an alliance with their leader on vacation is much different from the behavior of an alliance with their leader replaced... it may make for nice propaganda to say, "Oh, look at how inactive they were for a couple of weeks!" but I wouldn't go getting my hopes up. "You can still steal their stuff." - CCP Explorer
Darina Rea Sovereign Hospitaller Order of Saint Katherine	Posted - 2009.10.12 18:57:00 - [75] Originally by: Merdaneth Originally by: Darina Rea So all in all, it's a nice ideology, and the Star Fraction is doing it's best to make it a reality I gues, but I'll never am going to agree with you that after a million years being in space I'm subscribing to it. Mostly because I have an alternative that I personally subscribe to as passionately as you do to yours. Ironically one of the examples I'd put forward of a corporation with a similar strong idealogical backbone would be PIE Inc. I'm not sure which corporation is the older one, but both are equally ancient and still strong going. What I personally wonder about is how much Star Fraction is a personality cult. In those periods ms. Constantine was away, I rarely saw the Fraction launch new propaganda or military campaigns and their fleet activity seemed much more subdued. CEO Constantine has been steady at the helm for many years, is the Fraction stability largely her influence? PIE has seen a lot more changes in leadership over the years than the Fraction has. I wonder how much time it would take for the Fraction to fracture if ms. Constantine was removed from the picture. Please don't abuse my words to make an insult with them. The point of that paragraph was that even though both organisations are radically different they found each their own ways to deal with the longitude of their existence. By your own words and those Havohej this is once again underlined. Different solutions to the same problem. Is the one worse then the other? Probably not, since both organisations are still working and vibrant. What will be the death of the corporation or alliance? Stagnation. Lack of challenge. Simple boredom. No change. People naturally seek to improve themselves or their situation, if the structure you operate in fails to facilitate this drive for improvement then it's the structure that will change to allow the improvement or fail to continue to exist as working structure as the stress becomes to great on the cracks. Ideology is another structure to operate inside. Amarr, Minmatar, Gallente, Caldari, Star Fraction, Nation, Gurista, Serpentis, Cartel, Goonswarm, Red Alliance and so on and so forth. Each of them operates with a different and unique ideology, there are similarities and vast differences, but what the best ideology is undetermined. Rather, the sign of a working structure is that the organisation doesn't collapse when change is forced against the ideology through outside forces, but rather adapted to and, eventually returned to the former ideology, with incorporating the lessons learned. A long story short, I'm agreeing on something with Jade. Surprise! Or not. You're responsible for your own actions. Feel free to do with it what you want, but know I'm not you and I am responsible for my own actions aswell. If we clash, oh well, tough luck. _________ _________ Time is on our side.
Tomahawk Bliss Minmatar Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.12 19:10:00 - [76] Edited by: Tomahawk Bliss on 12/10/2009 19:10:59 Originally by: Havohej Here, the power of the individual personality is encouraged and allowed to grow. which is one reason SF is (for exsample) out perfomring alliances 10x its size. Ten thousand Sanshabots(tm) are not worth even the most rookie of Individual. Originally by: Merdaneth What I personally wonder about is how much Star Fraction is a personality cult. The Cult of Bliss has a nice ring don't you think?
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.12 19:32:00 - [77] Originally by: Merdaneth What I personally wonder about is how much Star Fraction is a personality cult. Do you really Amarrian? Or is just the latest line of attack you'd like to try. I ask in return of course because of all the alliances in New Eden I think you'll find a voluntary association of free individuals jam-packed with personality but seasoned with very little cult an unlikely place for your definition. In many many ways Star Fraction is the antidote to a personality cult - every Free Captain is expected to flourish and strive and the liberal meritocracy of the association rewards achievement with mutual acclaim. I find it attracts the very best people from start to finish and I don't have to look far through the pilot rosters of Jericho Fraction and our alliance partners to find dozens of leadership figures who would have no trouble whatsoever rising to command whatever organizations they wished to join. Why do you imagine we have so many high profile splits and schisms in the movement? Some leaders can work together, some cannot, the environment is a fruitful one for ideas and cooperation but sometimes Free Captains must strike out on their own. We are hardly an environment that could be said to foster servile cultists however - to suggest such makes you sound almost as barking as the latest Archbishop sermon does him. Quote: In those periods ms. Constantine was away, I rarely saw the Fraction launch new propaganda or military campaigns and their fleet activity seemed much more subdued. Strangely in those periods when you were away from the Bleaklands I rarely saw PIE at all. Does this mean you lead the personality cult of PIE from the capsule of your crusader class interceptor now? Or is it possible that what you see or don't see personally is not the whole of the truth ... come now, its not as unlikely a thought as all that. Quote: CEO Constantine has been steady at the helm for many years, is the Fraction stability largely her influence? PIE has seen a lot more changes in leadership over the years than the Fraction has. I wonder how much time it would take for the Fraction to fracture if ms. Constantine was removed from the picture. I was under the impression your party line was the baneful influence I had over the Star Fraction and how wonderful things would be if I was displaced by The Cosmopolite or another comrade? Are you now crediting me with a stabilizing influence and suggesting horror stories of immiment collapse if I left? Dear dear, one day you nationalists are really going to have to sit down and get your collective stories straight. -hint. The True Knowledge can help you. True Knowledge
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.10.13 09:15:00 - [78] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Merdaneth What I personally wonder about is how much Star Fraction is a personality cult. In many many ways Star Fraction is the antidote to a personality cult - every Free Captain is expected to flourish and strive and the liberal meritocracy of the association rewards achievement with mutual acclaim. I find it attracts the very best people from start to finish and I don't have to look far through the pilot rosters of Jericho Fraction and our alliance partners to find dozens of leadership figures who would have no trouble whatsoever rising to command whatever organizations they wished to join. Indeed, I would tend to agree. However, since the longevity of the Fraction was pointed out, to which I added a marked stability in leadership it made me wonder. It would take a truly exceptional individual to keep such a diverse group of individuals, most with leadership capabilities themselves, together don't you agree? Originally by: Jade Constantine Why do you imagine we have so many high profile splits and schisms in the movement? Some leaders can work together, some cannot, the environment is a fruitful one for ideas and cooperation but sometimes Free Captains must strike out on their own. We are hardly an environment that could be said to foster servile cultists however - to suggest such makes you sound almost as barking as the latest Archbishop sermon does him. Honestly, I rarely see anything that could be called 'high-profile splits or schisms' within the Fraction. In any case, surely not more than in an organization like PIE. Originally by: Jade Constantine Quote: In those periods ms. Constantine was away, I rarely saw the Fraction launch new propaganda or military campaigns and their fleet activity seemed much more subdued. Strangely in those periods when you were away from the Bleaklands I rarely saw PIE at all. Does this mean you lead the personality cult of PIE from the capsule of your crusader class interceptor now? Or is it possible that what you see or don't see personally is not the whole of the truth ... come now, its not as unlikely a thought as all that. I can only see a part of the picture. I would have to be a full time member of the Fraction to make a more accurate judgement. However, would you agree that large Star Fraction fleet operations without your presence are few and far between? Originally by: Jade Constantine I was under the impression your party line was the baneful influence I had over the Star Fraction and how wonderful things would be if I was displaced by The Cosmopolite or another comrade? Are you now crediting me with a stabilizing influence and suggesting horror stories of immiment collapse if I left? Dear dear, one day you nationalists are really going to have to sit down and get your collective stories straight. Perhaps one could say that you leaving would be good for the freespace ideology, but bad for the stability and longevity of the organization? As many people pointed out, while Star Fraction has done many constructive things, very few of those contribute to the freespace dogma, and most contribute to expanding the personal power and influence of its members, you above all. What is more important, the stability of your organization, or the further spread of your ideology? You preach freespace and transcendence of morality but you practice war and petty conflicts. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
The Cosmopolite Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.13 13:24:00 - [79] I am personally bemused by the claims that the Star Fraction never does anything without the say-so of Jade Constantine. The claim, essentially, that she is a Generalissima at the head of a personality cult the members of which only sleep when she does and otherwise refresh themselves by contemplating a portrait of the Supreme Leader for ten minutes is truly a bizarre one. I must have been dreaming the Star Fraction involvement in the Battle of Karishal's Defiance û an involvement decided upon by a council of the freecaptains while Jade Constantine was incommunicado at a planetside retreat. I must have simply imagined our time in Curse, when operational and diplomatic matters were decided by a council of directors while Jade Constantine spent much time attending to other matters and involved herself in those discussions little if at all. I must have conjured up as drug-induced phantasmal hallucinations the many times the personal wishes of Jade Constantine were not followed by the Star Fraction after due discussion. Really, is this all that you are left with, Merdaneth? Innuendo and half-baked attempts to foment jealousy and sow dissension among our ranks? Tragic. The Cosmopolite The Star Fraction Communications Portal
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.10.13 14:23:00 - [80] Originally by: The Cosmopolite I am personally bemused by the claims that the Star Fraction never does anything without the say-so of Jade Constantine. False claim. I said rarely, not never. I also mentioned that my picture of Star Fraction activity is incomplete. Could you please revise your statement to properly reflect mine? Originally by: The Cosmopolite The claim, essentially, that she is a Generalissima at the head of a personality cult the members of which only sleep when she does and otherwise refresh themselves by contemplating a portrait of the Supreme Leader for ten minutes is truly a bizarre one. Indeed, bizarre isn't it? The Star Fraction does exhibit many of such properties of having a Supreme Leader who cannot be opposed. Show me the last time you publically disagreed with ms. Constantine? A link to any forum post where you attack her position will do. I cannot remember any. To me it is quite normal to not oppose one's superior publically, but then again, I'm an imperialist. You seem quite the authority-conscious imperialist in that regard. Originally by: The Cosmopolite I must have been dreaming the Star Fraction involvement in the Battle of Karishal's Defiance û an involvement decided upon by a council of the freecaptains while Jade Constantine was incommunicado at a planetside retreat. I must have simply imagined our time in Curse, when operational and diplomatic matters were decided by a council of directors while Jade Constantine spent much time attending to other matters and involved herself in those discussions little if at all. One perceptible event of significance without ms. Constantine's involvement in how many years? Two, three? The diplomatic events in Curse you mention were not visible to me (and probably not to the general public as well) and thus obviously I cannot consider when giving my interpretation. I asked this simple question of ms. Constantine before: "However, would you agree that large Star Fraction fleet operations without your presence are few and far between?" Are you able to answer it? I'll make it more specific: what is the proportion of Star Fraction 10+ ship fleet operations with and without ms. Constantine in the last year? My personal guess it that it will be somewhere in the region of 5:1 if not more. Comparing this with the average in-pod time of ms. Constantine, one can only conclude that without her presence it is very hard for Star Fraction pilots to form a fleet of significant size. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.10.13 14:36:00 - [81] Originally by: Havohej It is the nature of The Star Fraction that certain strong personalities shine in the foreground. This is the case in all social groups, no matter how large, and in an alliance whose ideology is built almost entirely on the idea of an individual's sovereignty, I think the power of such personalities is at once magnified and altered by the gravity of those around it. Here, the power of the individual personality is encouraged and allowed to grow. Indeed. But the lack of activity of Star Fraction members, without ms. Constantine present to lead them, is perhaps a sign that a relation of dependency has developed. To me such dependencies are perfectly fine, but as I've understood SF, such a dependency is what its members should be trying to avoid at all cost. My claim is that precisely because of ms. Constantine's strong personality, the Star Fraction has managed to achieve many of its goals. The Star Fraction has a strong authoritative leader as far as I'm concerned. In fact, I believe that without strong direction and authorative leadership an organization really cannot achieve much. That is one of the major points of contention between the imperialist and the anarchists. My claim is also that because ms. Constantine's tyrant-complex and her focus on destruction and battle the Star Fraction will be unable to achieve its stated goals of enabling free space and their other more benevolent goals. The personal preferences of ms. Constantine dominate the Star Fraction even though she is not 'the boss' by any law, rule or tradition. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
The Cosmopolite Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.13 15:10:00 - [82] Merdaneth, I know how you work and it is by innuendo and implication, your object is to suggest that the Star Fraction is a personality cult and you are trying to suggest that we can do nothing without the imprimatur of Jade Constantine. Stop quibbling, you know very well what your intent is, and so do I. As to a case of me publicly disagreeing with Jade Constantine, nothing could be simpler, and I did so quite recently where I disagreed with Jade's assessment of Veto. There's your one example. There are several more out there. I will be quite open though, I agree with Jade on many things, differ on some, and oppose her on a few. Now, inevitably, and as I predicted to myself, you dismiss my quick recollections of a couple of incidents and periods where Jade took no or little hand in the direction of the Star Fraction as insufficient. Really, this is to move the goalposts, which is what you always do when proved wrong. Your question is rather odd but I will answer it. I think overall Star Fraction operations without the presence of Jade Constantine number at least 50%, if not higher. I think a more important question, given your thesis, would be the number of operations commanded by Jade Constantine and that is no more than 30% of operations. Of some 50 pre-arranged fleet operations in the last 3 months, 15 or so were organised and commanded by Jade Constantine. That doesn't even begin to factor in ad hoc gangs and fleets which we regularly form up, with or without our supreme generalissma and ineffable overlord in attendance. However, you decided on 'presence' for your question and we both know why. It allows you to distort matters and suggest that the presence of Jade Constantine is the key issue, not who has organised and is commanding the operations in question. You're a deceitful, twisting little creature and that you think you merit courtesy on our part given the unceasing efforts by you to spread lies about us is merely the most laughable thing about you. The Cosmopolite The Star Fraction Communications Portal
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.13 15:27:00 - [83] Your greatest weakness Merdaneth is your seeming inability to communicate honestly. You appear quite incapable of even asking an honest question û let alone processing the information provided by others. You cannot then be surprised that others consider your words as one might consider an uninvited visit by a poisonous snake at a dinner party. Perhaps you enjoy the sinister hissing theatre of the villain and think it unsettles your foes, who knows really, but letÆs simply accept your role as the adversary attempting to spin through deceit some doubts in the minds of your heroic foes. To which point IÆll address a few of your barbs: The longevity of the Fraction is something I attribute to the strength of its membership, the open nature of its organization and of course the power of the True Knowledge. Such an entity attracts strong personalities and strong leaders. A weak personality could not provide direction and inspiration to such a political movement û this much is simple common sense. As IÆve said earlier û any Free Captain of the Star Fraction is more than capable of providing the kind of leadership that is praised and envied in other corporations and alliances. That you claim to be unaware of high profile splits and schisms in the Star Fraction paints a picture of ignorance (or deceit) on your part frankly. Over the years the Fraction has split many times birthing varied external entities some of which have flourished, some have died. From the sharks with Laser Beams, to Stimulus, Tabula Rasa, Trinity Nova, Lantern Mining and literally dozens of other successor entities. As I recall you have previously pointed at some of these entities as proof of our failures and lauded them as ôgenuine freespacersö (usually a few weeks before they adopt NBSI rules of engagement and proceed to start shooting neutrals it has to be said). Beyond these examples of course we have individual Free Captains who have gone onto leadership roles in some of the largest and most notorious entities in the Star Cluster: if nothing else it illustrates the efficacy of one aspect of the True Knowledge û Freespacers learn to empower themselves and achieve their ambitions. Now on the matter of Star Fraction operational activity you are simply deluded (or perhaps expressing a wistful wish-fulfilment) in any case there is a no profit to addressing a vapour so weÆll leave it at that. And with regard to my influence on the freespace movement IÆll note your falsehood in stating the unattributed words of ôothersö û as usual you are keen to cite ôothersö to support your own personal agenda but generally unable to find the details when challenged. I am aware of no such valid criticism against the Star FractionÆs role in supporting the freespace movement and you are being wilfully deceitful to claim anything of the kind. As to your single question: Quote: "What is more important, the stability of your organization, or the further spread of your ideology?" it is similarly flawed and dishonest from the outset. You suggest the Star Fraction is a stable organization û it isnÆt. You assume that stability is a goal of our organizational procedures û it isnÆt. Again you should read more and assume less. If you actually tried to understand the words you read rather than immediately reaching for the propaganda blinders and redacting concepts you abhor to be replaced by merdspeak youÆd be able to comprehend the terms of the debate you are thus far failing completely to see let alone address. What is more important? Stability or Ideological spread - Neither. Our success is measured through instability and the resonance of instability. By breaking down stability we set an example of what can be achieved when the individual places their faith in their own power rather than foolishly hoping for hand-outs from external power-worshipping hierarchy. True Knowledge
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.13 15:29:00 - [84] Given that the Star Fraction movementÆs ultimate victory would lead inevitably to its own dissolution as a functioning association it would be quite ridiculous to believe our stability would be ranked higher than True Knowledge and free association of sovereign individuals. As for your final sentence ôpreaching freespace and transcendence of morality but practise war and petty conflictsö really Merdaneth, finally you make me sigh at your ignorance. Are you really incapable of listening? Surely it must be completely evident from the presentation thus far that we consider war and conflict healthy competition and vital expression of individual power. We donÆt transcend morality we sever the notion from false delusions and collectivist myth and root it properly in individual sovereignity, free association and personal interest. There is no such thing as a petty conflict û just disagreements between individuals which are resolve through testing power or negotiated self-interest. True Knowledge
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.13 15:41:00 - [85] Originally by: Merdaneth The Star Fraction has a strong authoritative leader as far as I'm concerned. In fact, I believe that without strong direction and authorative leadership an organization really cannot achieve much. You need to understand the difference between the word "authoritative" and "authoritarian" I think. Quote: That is one of the major points of contention between the imperialist and the anarchists. It actually isn't. You have never grasped The Cosmopolite's attempts to explain the how sovereign individuals can cooperate on collective endeavour I think. But our main point of contention is your opposition to the free evolution of the human species and development of a progressive market of space-born settlers expanding into the black in a vast new diaspora of endless adventure and true experience. Of course your decision to place false religion and authority-worship above free association and individual choice is a major contributing factor. Quote: My claim is also that because ms. Constantine's tyrant-complex... I think you'd better explain that. Quote: ... and her focus on destruction and battle the Star Fraction will be unable to achieve its stated goals of enabling free space and their other more benevolent goals. You really do need to re-read the op and try to understand it this time. Simply restating a falsehood many times doesn't make it more true or you (less of a liar). Quote: The personal preferences of ms. Constantine dominate the Star Fraction even though she is not 'the boss' by any law, rule or tradition. Stop projecting your role in Archbishop's "ceremonies" onto public debate. True Knowledge
Tomahawk Bliss Minmatar Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.13 15:55:00 - [86] Originally by: Jade Constantine Your greatest weakness Merdaneth is your seeming inability to communicate honestly. yeah i've stopped debating this because of it. Every third line or so has some nasty twist or dig or insult. Every second line is a mantra response of the same proposition, all of it based on an (admitted!) lack of understanding. sincerity is impossible to conceal, just as hypocrisy and seething hateful attempts at defamation come through regardless of the topic of one's text. Merdaneth hates, hates, hates the Star Fraction. Everything he says is tainted by this infection vector and it costs everyone the change to have a good and honest debate. the "Jade is a Tyrant rawr" has been debunked. Me just being me with my large-and-in-charge attitude dashes the idea that Jade is some dictator. I'd already have been booted for my fat mouth and my ôbetter to do and ask forgiveness than to ask permissionö attitude. you expressed your opinion Merdaneth, you have been given the answer, you have offered no substantive argument against those answers other than you general disbelieve in anything a Star Fraction pilots says. Most importantly you have admitted your own inexperience with Jade and the internal workings of Star Fraction. move on, your Debate has ended. Hate mongering just makes you look tarnished.
Hester Shaw	Posted - 2009.10.13 16:07:00 - [87] Originally by: Tomahawk Bliss Originally by: Jade Constantine Your greatest weakness Merdaneth is your seeming inability to communicate honestly. yeah i've stopped debating this because of it. Every third line or so has some nasty twist or dig or insult. Every second line is a mantra response of the same proposition, Ironically, this is how many people feel about Ms. Constantine. Much of the rest of your statement, too, in fact.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.13 16:12:00 - [88] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 13/10/2009 16:14:07 Originally by: Hester Shaw Ironically, this is how many people feel about Ms. Constantine. Much of the rest of your statement, too, in fact. Thank you for continuing to prove my long-held hypothesis that anyone claiming to speak for unspecified numbers and identities of other people is in fact an idiot. True Knowledge
Hester Shaw	Posted - 2009.10.13 16:21:00 - [89] I speak only from experience of opinions that have been expressed to me - by a sufficiently large number of people for me to use the term 'many'. And thank you for proving my point further with your little insult.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.13 16:24:00 - [90] Originally by: Hester Shaw I speak only from experience of opinions that have been expressed to me - by a sufficiently large number of people for me to use the term 'many'. And thank you for proving my point further with your little insult. And the readers of this thread should believe what you say rather than assuming its a complete falsehood conjured by a bitter little defeated foe in a sole moment of IGS ennui why exactly? You don't exactly have a reputation to judge you on. How are we to know whether you are telling the truth or not? True Knowledge
Hester Shaw	Posted - 2009.10.13 16:29:00 - [91] The readers can make up their own minds. I feel that it's necessary to derail the head of steam you're building up, though, by stating that I've never engaged in combat with Fractionists, and hardly count as a 'foe'. I certainly do not consider the Fraction an enemy. As for 'judging' - your judgements do not concern or trouble me. I don't doubt that this won't stop you making them anyways.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.13 16:40:00 - [92] Originally by: Hester Shaw The readers can make up their own minds. I feel that it's necessary to derail the head of steam you're building up, though, by stating that I've never engaged in combat with Fractionists, and hardly count as a 'foe'. I certainly do not consider the Fraction an enemy. Again. How can we know whether you are telling the truth or not? The reality is that only interaction I have had with your current identity has been you making negative and broad-reaching (unattributed and unsupportable) statements. Your employment record lists only the School of Applied Knowledge. Yet you are speaking about matters far beyond the likely cognizance of your current identity. The inevitable conclusion is that you are speaking lines provided by another identity and are acting as an agent purely to cloak the name of the originator. Presumably an originator who has been kicked around the Star Cluster by the Free Captains of the Star Fraction at some previous moment. Therefore we can reasonably conclude two things: 1. That you are simply a puppet delivering the words of another identity. 2. That the other "identity" is a capsuleer with a great terror of revealing the fact of his or her animosity to the Star Fraction. Nothing you say with these unattributed and unrecognizable lips can reasonably be expected to be taken at "face value" since its beyond obvious that your words are not spoken by the face behind the sentiment. True Knowledge
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.10.13 16:44:00 - [93] Originally by: Tomahawk Bliss yeah i've stopped debating this because of it. Every third line or so has some nasty twist or dig or insult. Every second line is a mantra response of the same proposition, all of it based on an (admitted!) lack of understanding. I am trying hard to understand mr. Bliss, but I'm also trying hard to point out all the inconsistencies, oddities and hypocrisies that are hidden behind the words and actions of ms. Constantine and other Fraction members. As a good scientist I'm constantly trying to falsify the claims made by the Fraction. Ms. Constantine has the ability to produce well-written prose, but making something sound good is something different than making sense, using logic and applying reason. If one looks at the words more closely, analyses their meaning and compares them to previous statements, the whole thing tends to fall down like a shoddily constructed house of cards. Both ms. Constantine and the Cosmopolite often try to avoid and sidestep my questions. Perhaps this is due to the fact that their answers might be miinterpreted by the public at large, or perhaps it is because when stripped of the flowery prose their answers suddenly seem hollow, false and contradictory. When I'm suggesting that Star Fraction is for a large part dependent on its CEO, I cite several sources of evidence. I ask question which might help prove or disprove my position. Sometimes these questions are answered, sometimes they aren't. That fact that you are allowed into Star Fraction doesn't neccessarily disprove ms. Constantine's singular importance to the Fraction. If you ask a slave if he feels enslaved and he answers 'no I don't', that doesn't that prove that he is not enslaved, it merely proves he doesn't feel enslaved. If I see you publically disagree with ms. Constantine, if I see you lead large battleship fleets without her present, if I see you present SF campaigns on the IGS that don't have her approval, you will help convince me that she isn't the central figure that most of the Fraction revolves around. The proof of the pudding remains in the eating. You fight for freespace? Show me freespace that has come about due to your actions. The closest thing to freespace in capsuleer dominates territories is administered by the CVA. The organization that is supposedly the largest opponent of freespace. When I see pod pilots I don't know refer one another to CVA space when they ask where it is safe to go into 0.0, then I see can taste the proof of an ideology. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Tomahawk Bliss Minmatar Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.13 16:46:00 - [94] Originally by: Hester Shaw Originally by: Tomahawk Bliss Originally by: Jade Constantine Your greatest weakness Merdaneth is your seeming inability to communicate honestly. yeah i've stopped debating this because of it. Every third line or so has some nasty twist or dig or insult. Every second line is a mantra response of the same proposition, Ironically, this is how many people feel about Ms. Constantine. Much of the rest of your statement, too, in fact. buy cutting the last part of my final sentence you twisted what I was saying to suit your petty aims. I disprove of you doing so to my comments. Originally by: Tomahawk Bliss all of it based on an (admitted!) lack of understanding. That is the line that matters, ignorance breeds the necessity to back fill post with jive from a lack of substantive understanding. This was what I was calling him out on. Jade may be many things but she is not ignorant of Freespace or Star Fraction's ideology. The problem here is that Merdaneth, like you, does not understand the Star Fraction. You are both outsiders, willful hate mongers and refuse to entertain any alternative view while so focused on trying to spread discord. The difference between you is that Merdaneth is one hundred times your superior as he admits both his dislike and his ignorance and is honest about who he is. I can disagree with him, argue with him and know it is really an actual involved pilot who speaks and all of us (debaters and spectators) can take into account that he is a member of PIE with a long blood history involving war from the Star Fraction. "Hester Shaw" is just some random creature and thus is inherently insincere.
Hester Shaw	Posted - 2009.10.13 16:51:00 - [95] Originally by: Jade Constantine 2. That the other "identity" is a capsuleer with a great terror of revealing the fact of his or her animosity to the Star Fraction. For emphasis, I must state that I do not consider the Fraction an enemy. As for your conclusions - your thinking is running in the wrong direction. I don't need to brand myself with a corporation logo to run a corporation. Ah, and Mr Bliss - if it salves your feelings, I can happily drop the third sentence. It won't detract much from my original point.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.13 16:56:00 - [96] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 13/10/2009 16:56:24 Originally by: Hester Shaw For emphasis, I must state that I do not consider the Fraction an enemy. As for your conclusions - your thinking is running in the wrong direction. I don't need to brand myself with a corporation logo to run a corporation. And I must re-emphasise. How can we know if you are telling the truth or not? You are a student in a starting academy corporation with no record of previous contact with the Star Fraction speaking on subjects you have no logical connection too. You are not "running" the School of Applied Knowledge - you are a student and have failed thus far to graduate. Yet you speak on matters involving corporations and alliances far beyond your cognizance. You see your predicament of course? Now it is known to be (likely) that you are simply delivering the thoughts and opinions of another how can anyone sensibly place credence in your words? It would be ridiculous to trust the opinions of such a messenger. True Knowledge
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.13 17:01:00 - [97] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 13/10/2009 17:03:41 Originally by: Merdaneth Both ms. Constantine and the Cosmopolite often try to avoid and sidestep my questions. Only a fool would agree to answer your deceitful leading questions in the terms in which they are posed. We really are too used to your twisting dishonesty Merdaneth and its all too easy to see the poison in your barbs. Instead you must now ask straight questions. I have told you this time and time before. Speak simply and honestly and you will receive simple and honest answers. Your problem is you seem incapable of asking honest questions. Solve that problem in yourself and you will find the progress of debate far less painful. True Knowledge
Tomahawk Bliss Minmatar Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.13 17:03:00 - [98] Originally by: Hester Shaw Ah, and Mr Bliss - if it salves your feelings, I can happily drop the third sentence. It won't detract much from my original point. Originally by: Tomahawk Bliss "Hester Shaw" is just some random creature and thus is inherently insincere. I'd love to talk about you "point", but not to a propaganda mouth piece created to provide a false sense of neutrality mixed with the distain.
Hester Shaw	Posted - 2009.10.13 17:04:00 - [99] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Hester Shaw For emphasis, I must state that I do not consider the Fraction an enemy. As for your conclusions - your thinking is running in the wrong direction. I don't need to brand myself with a corporation logo to run a corporation. And I must re-emphasise. How can we know if you are telling the truth or not? You are a student in a starting academy corporation with no record of previous contact with the Star Fraction speaking on subjects you have no logical connection too. You are not "running" the School of Applied Knowledge - you are a student and have failed thus far to graduate. Yet you speak on matters involving corporations and alliances far beyond your cognizance. You see your predicament of course? Now it is known to be (likely) that you are simply delivering the thoughts and opinions of another how can anyone sensible place credence in your words? It would be ridiculous to trust the opinions of such a messenger. I appear to have made a slight language error. I did not intend to imply that I was running the School - hardly! The idea is laughable. No, my intended implication was that it is entirely possible to run a corporation that you are not a part of - doubtless you can understand the whys and hows of that. The label of 'School of Applied knowledge' is largely due to the inferiority of CONCORD recordkeeping - I no longer consider myself a part of the School, but as I have not 'moved on' into another corporation, I remain under its tag. As for 'beyond my cognizance' - I've held my capsuleer's license for close on three years now. I've had plenty of time to watch the politics of the cluster tick over, and educate myself with regards the natures of corporations and alliances. As a result, I do not consider such workings to be beyond my understanding. And again - I deny these accusations of being a messenger. As for trust, well, that's rather scarce in this galaxy. I'd hardly expect it under any circumstances or with any form of background employment record.
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.10.13 17:06:00 - [100] Originally by: Jade Constantine Quote: That is one of the major points of contention between the imperialist and the anarchists. It actually isn't. You have never grasped The Cosmopolite's attempts to explain the how sovereign individuals can cooperate on collective endeavour I think. But our main point of contention is your opposition to the free social and cultural evolution of the human species and the development of a progressive market of space-born settlers expanding into the black in a vast new diaspora of endless adventure and true experience. Of course your decision to place false religion and authority-worship above free association and individual choice is a major contributing factor. That is true, I do not yet completely understand him. The explanations seem internally inconsistent and don't provide answers for what I see as common questions. You claim your philosophy doesn't need faith or magic to justify itself, you claim your philosopy is one of reason, logic and rationality. I am using these same methods to deconstruct the arguments you make. Your speeches are directed at the hearts of capsuleers, they seem intended to capture people's imagination, to make them dream about a greater and better world. That's all well and fine, but I'm not debating imagination and dreams with you. I'm debating logic, reason and cold hard facts. You provide plenty of the former, but little of the latter. If you don't have proof that your dream works, you'd better come up with some pretty good arguments. Each time you start to fly off towards some pretty dream, you'll see me pulling you back onto solid ground and have you face the reality of what you are saying. No matter how often you say that some gold apple will fall from the trees if I just start to believe X or do Y, I just cannot take your arguments on faith alone. 'Free association between sovereign individuals' is not a self-explanatory magic phrase. You have to explain to me why my decision to join PIE is not free association while mr. Bliss his decision to join the Fraction is. You'll have to explain why my acceptance of PIE's red list when I join is fundamentally different from mr. Bliss acceptance of the SF red list when he joined. Until now, I've not seen an explanation that is logical, internally consistent with other SF rules and practices and doesn't use some kind of circular reference. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.13 17:11:00 - [101] I am still not hearing an honest question Merdaneth. Start with something simple. True Knowledge
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.10.13 17:17:00 - [102] Originally by: Jade Constantine Your employment record lists only the School of Applied Knowledge. Yet you are speaking about matters far beyond the likely cognizance of your current identity. To look a little deeper we can see that you have been a student of the School of Applied Knowledge for 2 years, 9 months and 24 days. Thats a long time to spend in a teaching establishment. Perhaps we can assume that you haven't found it easy to find a Capsuleer-corporation to join? Could we asssume you have problems getting on with people? Who knows really. While I can understand your hesistancy to accept the word of someone that hasn't joined a capsuleer corporation, it is perfectly possible that such a person is not the mouthpiece of another. In fact, to study Star Fraction and have an opinion about it isn't even neccessary to be a capsuleer at all. Also the length of someone's membership of an organization is again no reason to discount a person. I myself have been in school for more than a decade, first as a student, later in a teaching position. I have noticed you have used the argument along the line of 'if you don't have reputation X or Y or past A or B it isn't even worth to talk to you regardless of what you say' often in the past. What qualification would one need other than the strength of one's argument for ms. Constantine to grace the one who asked with a good answer? In fact, would such a student if he/she applied to Star Fraction not be allowed to join or perhaps not listened to if he/she joined because if the capsuleer would have a past of this sort? This is again an indication of contradictory statements. Star Fraction is open to anyone is the oft-repeated dogma. By publicly judging people like this student not even worthy of a debate solely because of their past, you have cast doubt on that statement to me. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Archbishop Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.10.13 17:20:00 - [103] I normally try to avoid these fractionist propoganda threads. Still as I was mentioned I would like to set the record straight... 1. I do build T1 ships. I also invent and build several T2 ships and about 60 different T2 weapons and modules. 2. I am not an experienced combat pilot. I can be effective and have killed 1 on 1 but my interests are industrial and that is where I spend most of my time. 3. I have taken a vow of celebacy and am not some kind of deviant as Jade implies. (An accusation that made me laugh given the source and her well known activities with a certain mentally unstable Bloodveil deviant). 4. I do not use tools like vitoc, lashes, torture, etc on my slaves unless absolutely necessary. I firmly follow the SPCS guidelines for humane slave treatment. I have always believed a happy slave is a slave more open to enlightenment and Gods truth. Archbishop PIE WEBSITE ARCHBISHOP PORTAL
Tomahawk Bliss Minmatar Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.13 17:21:00 - [104] I got from his last paragraph ôhow is Merdaneth different from Mr. Bliss.ö ...oh honey child! The ways we are different are as numerous as the stars in the sky. Its like Apples and Passion Fruits, its like Water and Back Rub Oil. If in a deck of cards you were the duce of clubs...I'd be a lawn chair. there is no comparison. you are an opportunist vulture and I am a cougar.
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.10.13 17:24:00 - [105] Originally by: Jade Constantine I am still not hearing an honest question Merdaneth. Start with something simple. I suggest I'll ask these questions in private, to avoid the risk of misleading or misinforming the public on the IGS with my questions and thus spend less time with you attempting to avoid PR damage rather than trying to answer my question. It might also have the additional benefit of me not boring the readers here. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.13 17:26:00 - [106] Originally by: Hester Shaw I appear to have made a slight language error. I did not intend to imply that I was running the School - hardly! The idea is laughable. No, my intended implication was that it is entirely possible to run a corporation that you are not a part of - doubtless you can understand the whys and hows of that. The label of 'School of Applied knowledge' is largely due to the inferiority of CONCORD recordkeeping - I no longer consider myself a part of the School, but as I have not 'moved on' into another corporation, I remain under its tag. I see, so if I understand you correctly you are claiming to yourself control other individuals who are members of a capsuleer-registered corporation whom you'd rather keep secret while conducting whatever character-assassinations and corrosive galnet comment you please with this identity (protected as it is behind a shield of trainees and students). That isn't a particularly honest position you take. Don't you feel its unreasonable to embroil your thousands of fellow-students in discussion that would better come from the corporate identity you control through other puppet identities? You have admitted a fairly deceitful and cowardly mechanism to protect your interests here. Quote: As for 'beyond my cognizance' - I've held my capsuleer's license for close on three years now. I've had plenty of time to watch the politics of the cluster tick over, and educate myself with regards the natures of corporations and alliances. As a result, I do not consider such workings to be beyond my understanding. And yet you see fit to hide the corporation you claim to control while protecting yourself from the consequences of your words behind the immunity of a training school for junior pilots. What does that say about your character? What would it say about mine if instead of fighting on the front line of Star Fraction combat patrols I waited in a starter-corp and instructed novices to fight instead of me? Surely if nothing else you would admit that I am clearly a more courageous and forthright individual than you are? My integrity is in my actions as your actions represent risk aversion and using unskilled students as a shield to protect you from consequence. These are clear facts I hope you will agree? Quote: And again - I deny these accusations of being a messenger. As for trust, well, that's rather scarce in this galaxy. I'd hardly expect it under any circumstances or with any form of background employment record. If you had an employment record we could at least check your story against others who you had a history of working with in times before. There would be a background to check. As it is we have only your unsubstantiated word placed here from behind the protect of a starter academy corp and your assertion that while you are a corporate leader you prefer to keep that identity secret to avoid any consequence that might arise from your public condemnation of another such corporate officer. Remember Hester Shaw - we didn't draw you here. You came of your own decision to claim that "many pilots" (unsubstantiated and unproven) have said a thing. We challenged you on that and discovered you were the kind of individual who prefers to act in secret and hide your resources while protecting yourself as a mature student in a starter corp. Is it unreasonable to assume that your tendency towards crass immorality (using underskilled students as a human shield) and dishonesty (hiding your external corporate identity) would combine to make it reasonable for us to distrust your word and dismiss you as a reliable messenger? After all. Free Captains of the Star Fraction are what we are. We stand and debate with our own identities and resources clearly identified. I am speaking here in my own name and full knowledge that if anyone takes issue with anything I say they have the recourse of action in space. You have denied us that from the outset. True Knowledge
Tomahawk Bliss Minmatar Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.13 17:27:00 - [107] Originally by: Archbishop 3. I have taken a vow of celibacy and am not some kind of deviant as Jade implies. (An accusation that made me laugh given the source and her well known activities with a certain mentally unstable Bloodveil deviant). good example of a Jade vs another SF person disagreement (namely me). I do not believe Archbishop is a sexual deviant. I also believe that Blood raiders often are sexual deviants...not that as capsuleers that matters to us (the outdated planet bound social restrictions). thank you for posting Archbishop.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.13 17:31:00 - [108] Originally by: Merdaneth I suggest I'll ask these questions in private, to avoid the risk of misleading or misinforming the public on the IGS with my questions and thus spend less time with you attempting to avoid PR damage rather than trying to answer my question. It might also have the additional benefit of me not boring the readers here. I have absolutely no interest in fielding discussion with you in private Merdaneth and no perception whatsoever of any negative PR arising from your coils of your malicious IGS undulations. So again I'd challenge you to ask a simple and honest question if you wish to continue to contribute to this debate. Really now, it can't be that hard to ask something without lacing every second word with poisonous inneundo and deceitful misinterpretation and pre-assumption can it? How about asking me what my favourite brand of Republic autocannon is? Perhaps you should start very simply and work up from that. True Knowledge
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.13 17:40:00 - [109] Originally by: Archbishop 3. I have taken a vow of celebacy and am not some kind of deviant as Jade implies. (An accusation that made me laugh given the source and her well known activities with a certain mentally unstable Bloodveil deviant). For the record I believe strongly that there is a significant sexual motive behind the Amarrian religious establishment's promotion of slavery. You turn the whips and chains and branding irons and punishment cages into a fetish. It is well known that a great deal of stimulation can arise from denying yourself the immediacy of physical release (often through the medium of chastity-devices and pain-inducing nanopads). I find the focus on submission and domination in your religious theatre to be profoundly transparent and deeply revealing. That said, there's nothing wrong with any of that between consenting adults and I'd be a great hyprocrit if I claimed not to indulge my interests in such ways from time to time. The difference between you and I though Archbishop is I don't feel the need to pump my sexual partners full of Vitoc and threaten to have their elderly relatives eaten by slaver hounds if they don't perform appropriately. The devil is ever in the details. True Knowledge
Hester Shaw	Posted - 2009.10.13 18:14:00 - [110] Your understanding is correct - after the subtraction of the various comments about shielding, trainees, and students. I have specifically stated that I no longer consider myself part of the School. If you find issue with my continued classification as a member - something that I do not consider to be valid - I suggest you appeal to the directorship of the School. Doubtless they will be happy to hear you if you raise such an issue as the one that has arisen here. As for 'deceitful and cowardly'. Deceitful I do not deny. 'Cowardly' I take issue with - it is a matter of prudence. My activities are relatively unhindered as is. Moving ahead, and bypassing the various 'shield', 'starter corp' and suchlike comments (due them having been addressed above), I would certainly be tempted to admit you are quite forthright - but on reflection, the situation becomes more complex. By way of explanation, I should state that the nature of the majority of my activities is that of interstellar trade. I feel this will produce a feeling of disdain in you, but I would challenge that should it arise - after all, death holds no fear for you. You are immortal. So we both take risks - you in space combat, and I in the treacherous waters of the market. I would even suggest that I am frequently in a position to lose more - in terms of pure ISK, at least - in an unfortunate market shift than you are in a position to lose a considerable sum (via the medium of ship loss) as a result of a combat engagement. Both professions require courage, and necessitate the taking of risks - the difference being that one of them involves some more explosions. I suspect, however, that this could give rise to a long discussion that does not belong here. You are correct that I wish to avoid a consequence - but the consequence is not in condemnation of another, but in my being linked to the corporation that is under my command. Again, I must dismiss the comment about students (See above, as before), but a certain level of dishonesty is necessary, as I have explained. Claim I am an unreliable messenger if you wish, because I am nobody's messenger but my own. In closing I would ask - what is it that makes 'action in space' superior? All it results in is loss of ISK, something I can easily accomplish in an unfortunate transaction or failed excercise in market speculation. It holds no fear for me, because I - like you - do not fear death. Postscript: I apologise for the overly wordy nature of the comparison between possible loss from trading and combat. I hope it reads as I intended.
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.10.13 18:20:00 - [111] Originally by: Jade Constantine After all. Free Captains of the Star Fraction are what we are. We stand and debate with our own identities and resources clearly identified. I am speaking here in my own name and full knowledge that if anyone takes issue with anything I say they have the recourse of action in space. I remember a relative of yours named Jasmine. She was quite vocal on the IGS some time ago. This was during a period I heard when you were restricted from posting because you broke some regulations. I still see Jasmine Constatine in space, but she has become nearly a non-entity on this very summit. Is she currently restricted from posting, or was she merely acting as your mouthpiece when you were restricted from posting? If the latter, I find your position about using mouthpieces entirely hypocritical. As far as our discussion is concerned, your slanderous accusations at the address of his eminence the Archbishop have filled me with such distaste that I cannot continue any reasonable debate with you at this time. I'm expecting an apology of some kind. Merdaneth out. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.13 18:33:00 - [112] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 13/10/2009 18:37:24 Originally by: Merdaneth I remember a relative of yours named Jasmine. She was quite vocal on the IGS some time ago. This was during a period I heard when you were restricted from posting because you broke some regulations. I still see Jasmine Constatine in space, but she has become nearly a non-entity on this very summit. Is she currently restricted from posting, or was she merely acting as your mouthpiece when you were restricted from posting? If the latter, I find your position about using mouthpieces entirely hypocritical. As usual you tell a mixture of lies and misdirections, slander and nonsense. Its all getting quite easy to hurl out your input with the rubbish in one foul swoop. My cousin is still alive and well but has barred herself from posting on the IGS as part of the terms of a duel she fought with Frank Monkey several months ago (and lost) the terms of the defeat were that either losing party were not allowed to post on the IGS again until they had destroyed 10 24th Crusade Battleship hulls. By our count Jasmine is currently on 9 of 10 so it shouldn't be too long until she can post again. As for my own conflict with the corrupt authorities in concord fluidcom registry lets just say matters were resolved to my complete satisfaction with a mix of bribery, poisoned flechettes and a show-trial which saw my enemies purged and exiled to some lonely rock a long way away from any kind of power of censorship. If you only had the wit to ask simple questions rather than trying the slither and slime your way to deceit and confusion you might learn quite a lot more! Quote: As far as our discussion is concerned, your slanderous accusations at the address of his eminence the Archbishop have filled me with such distaste that I cannot continue any reasonable debate with you at this time. I'm expecting an apology of some kind.Merdaneth out. Expect all you like. And don't think for one moment my comments about the sexual motive behind your protestations of religious faith were restricted to Archbishop alone. I think you are all at it you randy self-denial fetishists - I'm quite sure the sackcloth and ashes in your own quarters are ripe with the old sweat-stains of holy rapture in the name of some dominant authority figure! True Knowledge
Tomahawk Bliss Minmatar Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.13 19:47:00 - [113] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Archbishop 3. I have taken a vow of celebacy and am not some kind of deviant as Jade implies. (An accusation that made me laugh given the source and her well known activities with a certain mentally unstable Bloodveil deviant). For the record I believe strongly that there is a significant sexual motive behind the Amarrian religious establishment's promotion of slavery. We will have to agree to disagree. Oh No!!! A disagreement, how will I survive as a member if Jade is a Tyrant!? Oh wait a tic, SF is about being a FreeCaptain. It ainÆt just a jazzy name folks. I will refer to the ôwhat is said, is meantö line and leave it at that.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.14 17:15:00 - [114] Originally by: Hester Shaw Your understanding is correct ... Jolly good. Quote: As for 'deceitful and cowardly'. Deceitful I do not deny. 'Cowardly' I take issue with - it is a matter of prudence ... I would certainly be tempted to admit you are quite forthright - but on reflection, the situation becomes more complex. By way of explanation, I should state that the nature of the majority of my activities is that of interstellar trade. I feel this will produce a feeling of disdain in you, but I would challenge that should it arise - after all, death holds no fear for you. You would be incorrect to assume I would disdain the practise of interstellar trade. Indeed that you think I might betrays the fact you clearly haven't read my opening statement. Jericho Fraction began its operations in the opening days of the Diaspora as free traders and we carried goods in our own name from nullsec to nullsec and made a fortune in doing so. But I don't agree that to be a trader one must neccessarily be a coward - or cloak one's operating identity from the public debate. This is less about your means of business and more about my disdain for those who think to throw barbs into debate from the secrecy of false identities and expect their word to count for something. I only value the word of courageous people. That is how I judge who is worth doing business with and who is not. Those who are too tremulous to enter a debate under their true colours are (to my eyes) behaving deceitfully and are automatically disregarded. After all, what profit is there is listening too or crediting the opinions of a person who does not have the courage of their own convictions? Quote: You are immortal. So we both take risks - you in space combat, and I in the treacherous waters of the market. Don't believe for a moment you can make such a distinction. As explained (again) in my opening statement Star Fraction is far more invested in the market than many could possibly imagine. Quote: ... I would even suggest that I am frequently in a position to lose more - in terms of pure ISK, at least - in an unfortunate market shift than you are in a position to lose a considerable sum (via the medium of ship loss) as a result of a combat engagement. Both professions require courage, and necessitate the taking of risks - the difference being that one of them involves some more explosions. I suspect, however, that this could give rise to a long discussion that does not belong here. I think you are operating on the false assumption that we believe in a distinction between warriors and producers - traders and fighters. We simply don't. Such a caste divison would be ridiculous and entirely contrary to the philosophy of individual sovereignty and free enterprise. Quote: You are correct that I wish to avoid a consequence - but the consequence is not in condemnation of another, but in my being linked to the corporation that is under my command. Again, I must dismiss the comment about students (See above, as before), but a certain level of dishonesty is necessary, as I have explained. Well given that you have admitted a level of dishonesty I imagine you will understand why I place no credence on your earlier assertions about speaking for "others". Quote: Claim I am an unreliable messenger if you wish, because I am nobody's messenger but my own. Well thats the crux of our disagreement. If you are simply speaking for yourself then there is no problem. You can certainly say that you find Star Fraction unpalatable. But earlier you claimed to speak for some large unattributed majority who found us so. If that is not the case then fair enough. Quote: In closing I would ask - what is it that makes 'action in space' superior? Absolutely nothing in itself. But the opinion of one who acts is worth more than one who does not. Simple pragmatics - why would we care about the condemnation of somebody with no power for example? True Knowledge
Darina Rea Sovereign Hospitaller Order of Saint Katherine	Posted - 2009.10.14 20:22:00 - [115] Because words, as the topic demonstrates, carry power. They might not kill someone instantly. They might not physically hurt someone. They might not actually do anything. They might inspire someone. They might encourage someone to endure beyond normal. They might bring hope to the crushed. Words are possible the most dangerous and most glorious tool available to humankind. Words make up able to tell others how we feel. What we think. Words undoubtedly carry the power to change everything, when used right, but also when used wrong, or when used not at all. What else, can words do? In a word. Everything. So what does the opinion of a single person without power carry? If the opinion is worded right and given form at the right time. Ha! It can change nations! Make them! Destroy them! Just ask the Minmatar when the Amarr invaded and crushed them, following the words of God. Just ask the Amarr when the Minmatar rose up and rebelled, following the words of a rebel. Just ask the Gallente what makes them vote for Foiritain, the words of a gentlemen. Just ask the Caldari when Tibus Heth shouted his message into the State, the words of change. They matter. Oh, how much they matter! _________ _________ Time is on our side.
Lay'la Seraphim	Posted - 2009.10.15 05:06:00 - [116] From what I've experienced, being involved in the Star Fraction means aiding and abetting Minmatar s**** in their unlawful actions. All this propaganda about being 'free captains' and whatnot is just a rationalization for exploiting loopholes in the rules of warfare as set forth by Concord in order to freely wardec corporations fighting for the Amarr Militia. If you truly oppose hegemony in all it's forms, why not then array yourselves against the Minmatar scum? Their rule is completely predicated upon a tribal structure which is characterized wholly by complete domination of the subservient classes or tribes, by the tribe that wields the most power in the form of corruption.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.16 14:11:00 - [117] Originally by: Darina Rea Because words, as the topic demonstrates, carry power ... Words are possible the most dangerous and most glorious tool available to humankind. Words make up able to tell others how we feel. What we think. Words undoubtedly carry the power to change everything, when used right, but also when used wrong, or when used not at all. What else, can words do? In a word. And yet words ripped away from the potential of action become simply noise. This is why I place very little value in the words of those without clear identity because it is simply impossible to assess the connection between the sounds and the capability of lips speaking. Words can lie, they can befuddle, they can confuse and manipulate and as thinking beings it is our task to judge the veracity of words from whatever supporting evidence we can from the circumstances around their speaking. Quote: So what does the opinion of a single person without power carry? If the opinion is worded right and given form at the right time. Ha! It can change nations! Make them! Destroy them! Then of course the person speaking them has power, the power to convince. Yet as thinking beings those being "convinced" are not convinced by words alone but of the arguments and vision and the assessment of the reliability of the speaker. Words from a known liar and fraudster are viewed with distrust and cynicism. Hence the same words from a trustworthy and courageous speaker will be given more credence and support than an identical speech from a coward and a traitor. The words alone lack power without the essence of the individual delivering them. Quote: Just ask the Minmatar when the Amarr invaded and crushed them, following the words of God. Actually the words of priests interpreting a myth to their personal interests - yet they were occupying a superior position in the Amarrian hegenomy and the nature of power-worship in that society gave the lever for these functionaries to set the military machine in action. Yet the example follows - the notion of "god" is the thing with power to the Amarr - not the words in and of themselves. I could ghostwrite the words of "god" and have ten million amarrians prostrate themselves purposely in the name of "Saint Imadeitup" if I convince them the words are scripture. The perceived origin is everything - the words themselves mean little. Quote: Just ask the Amarr when the Minmatar rose up and rebelled, following the words of a rebel. The rebel who shouted "we must rise" and stood amongst his brothers on Ezzara IV with his Khumaak drenched in the blood of his former master leant power to the words with his action and presence and intention to fight. The words lack all power and capability if they were anonymously sent by radio from an underground bunker a long way from the war. Quote: Just ask the Gallente what makes them vote for Foiritain, the words of a gentlemen. Fear and manipulation in the main - but I'll grand you, Foiritain has been successful in his manipulations though he as well has the art of personal appearence on occassion - I certainly have met the man in space in the wake of the Elarel Massacre where he personally declared the campaign of vengence against UDI. Quote: Just ask the Caldari when Tibus Heth shouted his message into the State, the words of change. And again Tibus Heth has manipulated the State through personal appearence - personal proximity at the front when he defied the old corporate regime. The perception of personal investment and involvement in the revolution lends power to his relatively weak and unconvincing words. A stumbling buffoon can become an influencial speaker if the words are made at the right time in the right place with a bloodstained body and tattered flag in the composition on the news media. Quote: They matter. Oh, how much they matter! With the right speaker yes. But that was largely my point. True Knowledge
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.16 14:19:00 - [118] Originally by: Lay'la Seraphim From what I've experienced, being involved in the Star Fraction means aiding and abetting Minmatar s**** in their unlawful actions. All this propaganda about being 'free captains' and whatnot is just a rationalization for exploiting loopholes in the rules of warfare as set forth by Concord in order to freely wardec corporations fighting for the Amarr Militia. If you truly oppose hegemony in all it's forms, why not then array yourselves against the Minmatar scum? Their rule is completely predicated upon a tribal structure which is characterized wholly by complete domination of the subservient classes or tribes, by the tribe that wields the most power in the form of corruption. I think you've followed the rather poor example of Merdaneth here and thing to ask a leading question that occludes the honesty of the debate. What you should ask is "why does the Star Fraction not oppose the Republic government as it opposes the Amarrian empire?" To which I'll be glad to refer you to comments on the subject made by The Cosmopolite earlier in the campaign. To address your complaints the conduct of the war and Star Fraction's chosen tactics in isolating and targetting 24th Crusade command and control and frontline corps then I must tell you the remedy for your helplessness is within your own capability. It does require a little courage and unity of action however, but since many crusaders are simply brigands unconcerned with the fate of their fellows that appears increasingly unlikely. Ultimately though you are travelling down the path to the True Knowledge step by step. One day you may come to the realization that nobody is to blame for your lack of power but yourself and your unwillingness to do what is neccessary to protect your personal interests. True Knowledge
Lay'la Seraphim	Posted - 2009.10.16 19:44:00 - [119] Ahh, I see the rationale now. It still appears to me that your organization is still partaking in the idea of nationalism or 'corporationism'. While your claims of industrial prowess may be true and your motives derived from capsuleer's perceived immortality, your interests in setting the Tribal Liberation Force to neutral seem to be conjoined with the old nationalist idea of nation building. To reiterate: You provide ships and materiel to all sides. You fight all factions save one, the Minmatar.
Theophilas Amarr Deus Imperiosus Acies	Posted - 2009.10.17 00:17:00 - [120] Edited by: Theophilas on 17/10/2009 00:25:13 Layla, prepare yourself for a heaping dose of hypocrisy. If you can steel yourself against it, you might succeed in dragging this thread another couple pages, if you can't, then Jade or one of her little dancing monkeys will get the last word in with some long winded, ripped directly from a thesaurus diatribe, that few will read, and even fewer will care about. -------------------------------------------------- No sooner said than done - so acts your man of worth.
Tecam Hund Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.17 02:17:00 - [121] Originally by: Lay'la Seraphim Ahh, I see the rationale now. It still appears to me that your organization is still partaking in the idea of nationalism or 'corporationism'. While your claims of industrial prowess may be true and your motives derived from capsuleer's perceived immortality, your interests in setting the Tribal Liberation Force to neutral seem to be conjoined with the old nationalist idea of nation building. To reiterate: You provide ships and materiel to all sides. You fight all factions save one, the Minmatar. Your reply left me wondering if you actually read the statement Jade linked to. But regardless, the core of your argument is that Star Fraction supports war effort of one militia against another and deals with the entities it seeks to destroy; therefore Star Fraction supports nation building. This attack is so weak that it hardly deserves a response, but I am in a good mood and will humor you. By your statement you imply that there are certain rules that an anarchist organization such as Star Fraction has to abide by in order to stay true to its ideals. Well, there aren't. The day when we stop dealing with enclosurist entities is the day Star Fraction will cease to exist because our mission will be complete. The simple truth of the matter is that we use all tools at our disposal if we believe that they might bring us closer to our goal. The 24th Crusade is the greater evil and backing TLF is the most efficient way to fight it. It's that simple.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.18 15:02:00 - [122] Originally by: Lay'la Seraphim Ahh, I see the rationale now. It still appears to me that your organization is still partaking in the idea of nationalism or 'corporationism'. Perhaps you'd like to explain what you mean precisely? Quote: While your claims of industrial prowess may be true and your motives derived from capsuleer's perceived immortality, your interests in setting the Tribal Liberation Force to neutral seem to be conjoined with the old nationalist idea of nation building. Well if your have read the articles linked and considered our philosophical positions elsewhere you'll see what we really want to encourage is a culture of self-sufficient individuals breaking free from nationalist dogma and finally taking responsibility for their own happiness, self-defense and personal worth. Quote: To reiterate: You provide ships and materiel to all sides. You fight all factions save one, the Minmatar. For the reasons expressed in the article I linked too. Do you have more questions about these things? True Knowledge
Theophilas Amarr Deus Imperiosus Acies	Posted - 2009.10.19 14:42:00 - [123] Edited by: Theophilas on 19/10/2009 14:45:28 Originally by: Tecam Hund Your reply left me wondering if you actually read the statement Jade linked to. I'll be honest with you... Tee-Kam? Am I saying that correctly? It doesn't matter. Anyways, I almost never read what Jade writes. It's ego driven philosophical psycho babble unworthy of even five minutes of my time. If I wanted to read about why some terrorist organization wants to decimate galactic empires, I'd hunt down a Sansha and ask him, at least it wouldn't take as long. Honestly, you Star Fraction are the most long winded little terrorists in all of New Eden, and that, is a feat I think everyone can agree Star Fraction have "achieved". -------------------------------------------------- No sooner said than done - so acts your man of worth.
Tomahawk Bliss Minmatar Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.19 16:18:00 - [124] Edited by: Tomahawk Bliss on 19/10/2009 16:22:49 Originally by: Theophilas Edited by: Theophilas on 19/10/2009 14:45:28 Originally by: Tecam Hund Your reply left me wondering if you actually read the statement Jade linked to. I'll be honest with you... Tee-Kam? Am I saying that correctly? It doesn't matter. Anyways, I almost never read what Jade writes. It's ego driven philosophical psycho babble unworthy of even five minutes of my time. If I wanted to read about why some terrorist organization wants to decimate galactic empires, I'd hunt down a Sansha and ask him, at least it wouldn't take as long. Honestly, you Star Fraction are the most long winded little terrorists in all of New Eden, and that, is a feat I think everyone can agree Star Fraction have "achieved". Well is looks like InveliousÆ low brow communication skills have started to spread to other members of his corporationà I would suggest that you take either one of two courses (because this course is just adding to the idiocy of your reputation and that is unfair to your pilots). The first course is one taken by most of new EdenÆs pilots. That would be the path of Silence. If you donÆt know or donÆt care what is being said then shut your flapping vomit hole and the cluster will continue on in ignorance of your poor conversational skills and idiot mantras. The Second course is a bit more difficult and requires effort beyond the lazy ôtl:drö culls that you willing admit you are. Read what is spoken, research the topic, formulate opinions and then express them in a clear manner. If you bother to learn what is being said, if you look up references, I believe nothing is absolute and there is legitimate room for debate on every issue. Also donÆt mock TecamÆs pilot call sign, you have numerous pilots with quizzical names and there are several ancient Ammarian loyalist corps named after such things as ôSpoonsö. If you think before you banter petty insult then less of them will blow up in your puerile face.
Tecam Hund Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.19 19:12:00 - [125] Originally by: Theophilas I'll be honest with you... Tee-Kam? Am I saying that correctly? It doesn't matter. Anyways, I almost never read what Jade writes. It's ego driven philosophical psycho babble unworthy of even five minutes of my time. If I wanted to read about why some terrorist organization wants to decimate galactic empires, I'd hunt down a Sansha and ask him, at least it wouldn't take as long. Honestly, you Star Fraction are the most long winded little terrorists in all of New Eden, and that, is a feat I think everyone can agree Star Fraction have "achieved". Amusingly enough I wasn't addressing you, the linked message was written by Cosmo, and if you don't read what's being posted you shouldn't even be here But thanks for being honest. I wish more Amarr loyalists would come out of the closets and confess that they don't actually care what Star Fraction pilots have to say and just try to attack our cause with random statements hoping for a lucky break. Ignoring majority of our IGS adversaries would save much time and effort and allow us to actually discuss something with the people who are interested in an intelligent debate. It's Tek-um by the way. But yes, it doesn't really matter.
Theophilas Amarr Deus Imperiosus Acies	Posted - 2009.10.19 20:07:00 - [126] Originally by: Tecam Hund Amusingly enough I wasn't addressing you, the linked message was written by Cosmo, and if you don't read what's being posted you shouldn't even be here But thanks for being honest. I wish more Amarr loyalists would come out of the closets and confess that they don't actually care what Star Fraction pilots have to say and just try to attack our cause with random statements hoping for a lucky break. Ignoring majority of our IGS adversaries would save much time and effort and allow us to actually discuss something with the people who are interested in an intelligent debate. It's Tek-um by the way. But yes, it doesn't really matter. By the Empress, Teecum, I can not believe I'm about to say this, but, I agree with you. It makes me shudder to do so, but I have no idea why so many of my Amarr brothers continue to debate with you terrorist windbags. The pain of having to endure one of Jade Constantine's terribly written Intergalactic Summit communiques is worse than being subjected to the Holy Star cranked up to full power. I understand why Amarr corporations may have negotiated peace treaties with you, so they don't have to listen to your endless parade of nonsense any longer. -------------------------------------------------- No sooner said than done - so acts your man of worth.
Tomahawk Bliss Minmatar Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.19 21:11:00 - [127] Originally by: Theophilas Originally by: Tecam Hund Amusingly enough I wasn't addressing you, the linked message was written by Cosmo, and if you don't read what's being posted you shouldn't even be here But thanks for being honest. I wish more Amarr loyalists would come out of the closets and confess that they don't actually care what Star Fraction pilots have to say and just try to attack our cause with random statements hoping for a lucky break. Ignoring majority of our IGS adversaries would save much time and effort and allow us to actually discuss something with the people who are interested in an intelligent debate. It's Tek-um by the way. But yes, it doesn't really matter. By the Empress, Teecum, I can not believe I'm about to say this, but, I agree with you. It makes me shudder to do so, but I have no idea why so many of my Amarr brothers continue to debate with you terrorist windbags. The pain of having to endure one of Jade Constantine's terribly written Intergalactic Summit communiques is worse than being subjected to the Holy Star cranked up to full power. I understand why Amarr corporations may have negotiated peace treaties with you, so they don't have to listen to your endless parade of nonsense any longer. same immature name altering disrespect and the same jack-ninny self defeating smack, Invelious has really trained you well. You sound so very much like him it is uncanny. I guess stupid runs in the water over in Deus. Which is confusing to me because you have one of the most eloquent and concise Amarrians in the cluster. how many obelisk loads of isk do you have to pay him so that keeps company with such a bilge rat like you?
Theophilas Amarr Deus Imperiosus Acies	Posted - 2009.10.19 21:47:00 - [128] Edited by: Theophilas on 19/10/2009 21:48:38 Originally by: Tomahawk Bliss same immature name altering disrespect and the same jack-ninny self defeating smack, Invelious has really trained you well. You sound so very much like him it is uncanny. I guess stupid runs in the water over in Deus. Which is confusing to me because you have one of the most eloquent and concise Amarrians in the cluster. how many obelisk loads of isk do you have to pay him so that keeps company with such a bilge rat like you? "Bilge rat"? Okay, the next time you write something, if, when proof reading it, you start to take on the voice of a 20th century planet side English gentlemen, well then, go ahead and step out of the nearest adjacent airlock because you're an ass. I really don't see why you've taken so much offense to me stating my opinions. I've said nothing rude. You write create numerous threads, spanning paragraphs after paragraph, of your terrorist philosophical garbage, and when someone finally tells you the truth, that the vast majority of the IGS simply DOESN'T CARE, you start to react like a child who just had his candy taken from him. I suppose I shouldn't really be surprised at all. We Ammarians are used to being labeled as boogieman. So fine, rant and rave about me if you must, just please, for the love of all that is holy, limit it to a paragraph next time. -------------------------------------------------- No sooner said than done - so acts your man of worth.
Zarak1 Kenpach1 R.E.C.O.N. Zenith Affinity	Posted - 2009.10.19 21:59:00 - [129] 3000 kills by a corp in a year isnt that awesome btw
Jakiin	Posted - 2009.10.19 22:11:00 - [130] When I was a youth, I would peruse the various sites which galnet provided to non-capsuleers. On the forums of these sites would be a certain class of individual who would say very inflammatory things, refuse to listen to reason, and generally do their best to cause a fuss. We called these people 'trolls'. A rule existed, and on those forums that followed it it worked quite well: Do not feed the troll. The theory held (And more often than not, held true) that if you ignored these individuals then their topics would remain on the front page for a shorter time, and the individuals would eventually go bother someone else. Jade Constantine is in many ways similar to these people, and I suspect that if those who considered her and her so-called arguments completely invalid and hypocritical simply refused to reply to her opinion (Which is something I have discovered in my short time to be completely futile) then we would not currently be on the fifth page of replies at this point. In short: If you don't think you can argue with her (Which you can't) then don't, and keep from bumping the topic. This is going to be the last thing I say in this, or any other Jade Constantine thread. Hopefully it will reach at least one person. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jakiin Holder Heir of the Kingdom 'Pacifist Reclaimer'
Tomahawk Bliss Minmatar Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.19 22:24:00 - [131] Originally by: Theophilas you start to take on the voice of a 20th century planet side English gentlemen, I don't know what a 20th century English gentleman is but in this common trade language Bilge is the liquid build up of refuse and seepage from a ships internal systems and a rat is a generic term for vermin/rodents. I suspect your trying to attack my terminology, for you have no rejoinder to the failure in conversation you just burped up on the summit. However, as we all are using the common trade language here I'm sure some historical or legendary or hoax-historical overlap will happen. I could look back over your commentary and make similar claims but in the end we just have to accept that sometimes the translation between our cultures into this common language comes with a few peculiar moments. To dumb it down for you, donÆt be stupid and mock the language. Invelious must be so proud to have such a perfect lock-step fellow Deus employee.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.19 22:25:00 - [132] Originally by: Jakiin ... I suspect that if those who considered her and her so-called arguments completely invalid and hypocritical simply refused to reply to her opinion (Which is something I have discovered in my short time to be completely futile) then we would not currently be on the fifth page of replies at this point. As far as I can see you have had your questions answered entirely appropriately. If you feel your engagement in the debate has been lacking then I'd suggest you come at the discussion with less preconception and a little more intellectual flexibility in the future. True Knowledge
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.19 22:31:00 - [133] Originally by: Zarak1 Kenpach1 3000 kills by a corp in a year isnt that awesome btw Given our highly selective rules of engagement and the extremely risk-averse nature of our chosen prey its actually quite impressive. 3000 enemies who deserve to die slain each year by heroic Free Captains while the rest of the neutral pilots of the cluster go about their business without impediment. True Knowledge
Theophilas Amarr Deus Imperiosus Acies	Posted - 2009.10.19 22:37:00 - [134] Originally by: Tomahawk Bliss I don't know what a 20th century English gentleman is but in this common trade language Bilge is the liquid build up of refuse and seepage from a ships internal systems and a rat is a generic term for vermin/rodents. I suspect your trying to attack my terminology, for you have no rejoinder to the failure in conversation you just burped up on the summit. However, as we all are using the common trade language here I'm sure some historical or legendary or hoax-historical overlap will happen. I could look back over your commentary and make similar claims but in the end we just have to accept that sometimes the translation between our cultures into this common language comes with a few peculiar moments. To dumb it down for you, donÆt be stupid and mock the language. Invelious must be so proud to have such a perfect lock-step fellow Deus employee. Liquid build up of refuse and seepage from a ships internal systems... yes I forgot how you minners build your little garbage ships. Of course it makes sense now. And in case you forgot hawk, I was answering your fellow corp mate who was wondering if one of the posters had read Jade's post, and I answered him that most people don't, and then I elaborated as to why. You were the ones who began the personal attacks. If Jade can post the same drivel for "half a decade" and not be bored to tears (as the rest of us are) from it, wonderful, then let her thesaurus driven intellect shine in her self-aggrandizing threads, but don't jump down my throat, and drag people who have nothing to do with this into it, because you didn't like the healthy dose of reality I brought to the discussion. -------------------------------------------------- No sooner said than done - so acts your man of worth.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.19 22:46:00 - [135] Originally by: Theophilas I was answering your fellow corp mate who was wondering if one of the posters had read Jade's post, and I answered him that most people don't, and then I elaborated as to why. You were the ones who began the personal attacks. As already demonstrated in this thread - people who claim to speak for unspecified and unproven numbers of "other people" are generally idiots. This is not a personal attack Theophilas merely an observation from much data on 24th Crusade debating "tactics". I imagine most independent commentators would be aghast at the mere notion of you sharing a comms general with anybody else, let alone having the right to speak for them. You speak for nobody Theophilas since you are undoubtedly a corporate peon in an unremarkable entity without power or courage of your own. I understand its difficult for you to accept your role in reality and you doubtless find the low esteem in which you are held somewhat uncomfortable but you do hold the remedy for your condition in your own hands. Stop being a substance-free mouthpiece defining yourself by your (verbal only) opposition to more talented pilots and build a reputation of your own. True Knowledge
Tempus Iskander Gallente	Posted - 2009.10.19 22:56:00 - [136] Originally by: Jakiin When I was a youth... Laughs aloud what do you mean "when you were a youth" - according to your pilot registration details in the registry you are still a member of Hedion University and you've barely been in space for a month and a half! Honestly students today leaping with fully-formed opinions on what is and isn't going on across New Eden. I have to wonder if you too are some patsy voice for another older capsuleer too cowardly to express his or her own personal opinions.
Theophilas Amarr Deus Imperiosus Acies	Posted - 2009.10.20 00:10:00 - [137] Edited by: Theophilas on 20/10/2009 00:12:17 Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Theophilas I was answering your fellow corp mate who was wondering if one of the posters had read Jade's post, and I answered him that most people don't, and then I elaborated as to why. You were the ones who began the personal attacks. As already demonstrated in this thread - people who claim to speak for unspecified and unproven numbers of "other people" are generally idiots. This is not a personal attack Theophilas merely an observation from much data on 24th Crusade debating "tactics". I imagine most independent commentators would be aghast at the mere notion of you sharing a comms general with anybody else, let alone having the right to speak for them. You speak for nobody Theophilas since you are undoubtedly a corporate peon in an unremarkable entity without power or courage of your own. I understand its difficult for you to accept your role in reality and you doubtless find the low esteem in which you are held somewhat uncomfortable but you do hold the remedy for your condition in your own hands. Stop being a substance-free mouthpiece defining yourself by your (verbal only) opposition to more talented pilots and build a reputation of your own. You're right, the numbers are unspecified and unproven. I say we call a vote. Let's make a thread called "Do you care what Star Fraction is talking about?" and have people vote yes or no. I really hate to be called an idiot, especially in so passive aggressive a manner, so let's do this. We will of course need ground rules before we begin, but we can work those out if you agree. Dunno about you, but I am excited to think what New Eden has to say about all of this. As to the rest of your post, I got bored and tuned most of it out, so just pretend this is a comeback of some kind. -------------------------------------------------- No sooner said than done - so acts your man of worth.
Lay'la Seraphim Amarr Deus Imperiosus Acies	Posted - 2009.10.20 01:57:00 - [138] Since Theo speaks for 'nobody' but himself in your opinion, then he should be highly regarded by you. Yes? I have asked questions and they have been answered to my satisfaction. But you all must realize that stating positions in the concrete sense limits your credibility as true 'anarchists' and so-called free-captains. Through the process of reading your posts in the IGS it has become clear to me that your attachment to your beliefs is just as strong and (I hate to say it) HOLY as our faith in God. In fact, our perceptions are very close ie, there is only one right way, and it is our way. The difference is that you are terrorists that threaten all of new eden with your heretical ideals, and we Amarr are the holy guardians of truth who foster the longest lived space-faring culture since the closing of the eve gate. In answer to your accusations that we are merely 'mouthpieces' for Invelious, let me just say that; personally, I am first and foremost a speaker of truth. Truth that is granted to me by our most holy empress Jamyl. Secondly, I speak for myself and the will of God and Amarr. Invelious will respond to your ludicrous hypocritical diatribes if he sees fit.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.20 02:01:00 - [139] Originally by: Theophilas You're right, the numbers are unspecified and unproven. I say we call a vote. Thats very Gallente of you. So much for the Amarrian "master race" ideology Theophilas. Interesting that when challenged you so quickly reach beyond your culture's area of spiritual competence - shouldn't you be asking "god" instead? Quote: Let's make a thread called "Do you care what Star Fraction is talking about?" and have people vote yes or no. I really hate to be called an idiot, especially in so passive aggressive a manner, so let's do this. You may make whatever threads you feel you need to make. I suspect the "votes" you might garner from Academy students and desperate failed war enemies of the Star Fraction will reach some figure you consider pertinent yet far below the average capsuleer population of a trade hub on a given evening. Quote: We will of course need ground rules before we begin, but we can work those out if you agree. Haven't you already declared your position on the IGS that any Amarrian must betray any and all agreements with the Star Fraction as a matter of faith? Yet now you want "ground rules" - why do you think I would believe anything you had to say? (or expect you to keep your word for a moment?) You are very foolish to imagine that the pleasure you took in Battlestar Crusader betraying his word to us does not impact your own credibility in the most negative way possible. Quote: Dunno about you, but I am excited to think what New Eden has to say about all of this. I imagine capsuleers will pay you even less mind than they did your master Invelious when he begged for Goon aid on CAOD a couple of months ago... yet if you feel you need to make more threads about the Star Fraction to demonstrate how unimportant we are to you be my guest. True Knowledge
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.20 02:07:00 - [140] Originally by: Lay'la Seraphim Since Theo speaks for 'nobody' but himself in your opinion, then he should be highly regarded by you. Yes? Actually since I hold him entirely responsible for his own ignorance and lack of courage then my regard for him is vanishingly small. Quote: I have asked questions and they have been answered to my satisfaction. But you all must realize that stating positions in the concrete sense limits your credibility as true 'anarchists' and so-called free-captains. There is nothing concrete about the "True Knowledge", infinitely protean and flexible as the human mind that hosts it. What matters is what matters to us. Quote: Through the process of reading your posts in the IGS it has become clear to me that your attachment to your beliefs is just as strong and (I hate to say it) HOLY as our faith in God. In fact, our perceptions are very close ie, there is only one right way, and it is our way. Again I think you have misunderstood, well, everything really. Perhaps we should start over? True Knowledge
Theophilas Amarr Deus Imperiosus Acies	Posted - 2009.10.20 12:58:00 - [141] Originally by: Jade Constantine You may make whatever threads you feel you need to make. I suspect the "votes" you might garner from Academy students and desperate failed war enemies of the Star Fraction will reach some figure you consider pertinent yet far below the average capsuleer population of a trade hub on a given evening. Quote: We will of course need ground rules before we begin, but we can work those out if you agree. Haven't you already declared your position on the IGS that any Amarrian must betray any and all agreements with the Star Fraction as a matter of faith? Yet now you want "ground rules" - why do you think I would believe anything you had to say? (or expect you to keep your word for a moment?) You are very foolish to imagine that the pleasure you took in Battlestar Crusader betraying his word to us does not impact your own credibility in the most negative way possible. Quote: Dunno about you, but I am excited to think what New Eden has to say about all of this. I imagine capsuleers will pay you even less mind than they did your master Invelious when he begged for Goon aid on CAOD a couple of months ago... yet if you feel you need to make more threads about the Star Fraction to demonstrate how unimportant we are to you be my guest. I think the "point by point" response style you love so very much should be banned. If you are doing it for your benefit, then perhaps you need more intelligence implants. And I know you aren't doing it for my benefit... I don't need you to quote me to remember what I frigging said, I do have enough memory implants for that. Now, I tried to be equitable about this, and put the matter to a vote and settle it once and for all, and of course you went and attacked me, as if Amarrians never voted on anything. Of course we do, it's just typically, only our votes matter... I think the true matter rests with the fact that you're scared. Scared to find out that the EVE universe is tired of your schtick. You don't have enough war enemies, and new capsuleers won't even know about the vote so those are both moot points. Just admit your ego couldn't take the pounding it would receive. The ground rules were just to ensure that the wording of the post didn't skew anyones vote one way or another, I wanted the vote to stand as testimate, so that when I say "no one cares", it's actually been proven. There was no treaty, you called me an idiot, and I didn't think it was very fair, or correct, so I wanted to show you. We Ammar like to do that... show others the errors in themselves. How can you not be excited? Don't you want to prove me wrong? Wouldn't you like to have your words validated by the masses you fight for? -------------------------------------------------- No sooner said than done - so acts your man of worth.
Trenchi	Posted - 2009.10.20 13:27:00 - [142] Edited by: Trenchi on 20/10/2009 13:32:33 Originally by: Merdaneth 4. I am immortal. You are immortal. We are all immortal. was wondering about this. what is the "self" or "me". does it get destroid when the clone gets destroid. I think you dismiss faith to easily. sorry if this has been discused, im a new podpilot.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.20 14:52:00 - [143] Originally by: Theophilas I think the "point by point" response style you love so very much should be banned. Luckily your preference is scarcely relevant. Quote: ... If you are doing it for your benefit, then perhaps you need more intelligence implants. And I know you aren't doing it for my benefit... I don't need you to quote me to remember what I frigging said, I do have enough memory implants for that. Right now I'm doing it because it annoys you. Quote: I think the true matter rests with the fact that you're scared. Scared to find out that the EVE universe is tired of your schtick. Actually the true matter rests with the True Knowledge. Of course you didn't read it so you woulnd't know - but IF you did, you'd have learned precisely why I have absolutely no fear of gutless windbags with voices but no backbone. Action is everything. Quote: You don't have enough war enemies, and new capsuleers won't even know about the vote so those are both moot points. On the contrary, I said failed and broken ex war enemies. Of those we have plenty (yourself included). And our enemies are quite cowardly and often pay new academy students to post on the IGS for them through fear of being linked to their words. Hence neither point is moot. Quote: Just admit your ego couldn't take the pounding it would receive. Surely you jest. My ego is made of weapons-grade vanadium alloy. I eat detractors for breakfast and use their bones to whittle mementos for freespacer children. Quote: The ground rules were just to ensure that the wording of the post didn't skew anyones vote one way or another, I wanted the vote to stand as testimate ... Hardly matters what you want. Reality is your have praised a liar for lying to us and breaking a surrender treaty. That means your word cannot be trusted and no accord can be reached with you whatsoever. True Knowledge
Theophilas Amarr Deus Imperiosus Acies	Posted - 2009.10.20 15:16:00 - [144] Originally by: Jade Constantine Actually the true matter rests with the True Knowledge. Of course you didn't read it so you don't know - but IF you did, you'd have learned precisely why I have absolutely no fear of gutless windbags with mewling voices but no backbone. Action is everything. Weakling condemnation from substance-free galnet poseurs just means free bumps for the PR message in question. Its very pragamatic. Yes! A man of action. I believe you, so then, call a vote! Test your mettle and put your "true knowledge" to the test! Or don't. Everyone thinks you're a hypocrite anyways, so it doesn't matter. -------------------------------------------------- No sooner said than done - so acts your man of worth.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.20 15:19:00 - [145] Originally by: Trenchi Edited by: Trenchi on 20/10/2009 13:32:33 Originally by: Merdaneth 4. I am immortal. You are immortal. We are all immortal. was wondering about this. what is the "self" or "me". does it get destroid when the clone gets destroid. I think you dismiss faith to easily. sorry if this has been discused, im a new podpilot. Good question with an all too brutal answer I'm afraid. With baseline cloning technology you are immortal from my perspective. I am immortal from yours. There is seamless continuity for the observer but not from the subject. The individual dies but the identity continues. I'm sure you are aware with the workings of the burning scanner and poison-barb? At the point of death your mindset is scanned and transmitted to a waiting recepticle while the point of origin is destroyed with nerve poison at around the time the pod is breached. This is cut and paste not copy, and the reason (amongst other things) was to prevent illicit memory doubles being created and running rampant through the star cluster as the private military forces of unstable infinitely-replicating individuals. But technology has moved on. Currently we have the capability to pass our mindstate between active viable physical clones at will. Rather than destroying the flesh as we move consciousness, we simply revert the origin mind to deep sleep and storage - while writing knowledge, memory and experience to the neurons of the destination recepticle. There have been experiments with multiple parallel consciousness, and while there are problems to be faced there are many possibilities to be explored here through the medium of the genuine copy/paste transferal. Still, the reality is that the active individual element of the identity is mortal from their own perspective while the continuing meta-identity is immortal from all others. I am immortal to you. You are immortal to me. This doesn't mean you cannot choose to die of course. But it has to be your choice, nobody else can make it for you. On the matter of faith though, why do you believe it is important? True Knowledge
Kei Masuda Caldari	Posted - 2009.10.20 15:23:00 - [146] Originally by: Theophilas Everyone thinks you're a hypocrite anyways, so it doesn't matter. Actually I have it on good authority that Everyone thinks that you don't understand the meaning of the words you type.
Melisandre DeVance	Posted - 2009.10.20 15:25:00 - [147] Originally by: Kei Masuda Originally by: Theophilas Everyone thinks you're a hypocrite anyways, so it doesn't matter. Actually I have it on good authority that Everyone thinks that you don't understand the meaning of the words you type. True that /signed.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.20 15:30:00 - [148] Hey stop messing around with my jester! True Knowledge
Theophilas Amarr Deus Imperiosus Acies	Posted - 2009.10.20 15:34:00 - [149] So Jade claims he's a man of action, but won't call a vote. I call him a hypocrite for it, and I'm the one who doesn't understand my own words? That's, hyp+o+crite... Pronunciation: \ˈhi-pə-ˌkrit\ Function: noun 1 : a person who puts on a false appearance of virtue or religion 2 : a person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelings This would be the one I am looking at. See how it makes sense? If I say I am a man of action, then do nothing, I am in fact a hyp+o+crite. -------------------------------------------------- No sooner said than done - so acts your man of worth.
Melisandre DeVance	Posted - 2009.10.20 16:06:00 - [150] Edited by: Melisandre DeVance on 20/10/2009 16:06:50 Originally by: Theophilas wriggling bleating and whining All it proves is that you can't beat Jade in space and are desperately trolling for attention all the while she's mocking at you and using your posting for free bumps for her topic while EVERYONE laughs at you from the cheap seats.
Tempus Iskander Gallente Les Enfants de Gaia	Posted - 2009.10.20 16:12:00 - [151] Originally by: Theophilas This would be the one I am looking at. See how it makes sense? If I say I am a man of action, then do nothing, I am in fact a hyp+o+crite. I challenge you to make a vote and see if people decide whether you should commit suicide and throw yourself into the clone recycling bay or not. I guess if you refuse that does make you a hypocrite right? ___________________________ Without fear and without reproach
Theophilas Amarr Deus Imperiosus Acies	Posted - 2009.10.20 16:23:00 - [152] Originally by: Tempus Iskander Originally by: Theophilas This would be the one I am looking at. See how it makes sense? If I say I am a man of action, then do nothing, I am in fact a hyp+o+crite. I challenge you to make a vote and see if people decide whether you should commit suicide and throw yourself into the clone recycling bay or not. I guess if you refuse that does make you a hypocrite right? Here is what was said: Originally by: Theophilas I think the true matter rests with the fact that you're scared. Scared to find out that the EVE universe is tired of your schtick. Originally by: Jade Actually the true matter rests with the True Knowledge. Of course you didn't read it so you don't know - but IF you did, you'd have learned precisely why I have absolutely no fear of gutless windbags with mewling voices but no backbone. Action is everything. Weakling condemnation from substance-free galnet poseurs just means free bumps for the PR message in question. Its very pragamatic Cool See? Jade says he has no fear and that he is a man of action, and then promptly does nothing. Does EVERYONE get it? It's like I am talking to a bunch Sanshas. I mean, are you serious? -------------------------------------------------- Moral law is an invention of mankind for the disenfranchisement of the powerful in favor of the weak. Historical law subverts it at every turn.
Darina Rea Sovereign Hospitaller Order of Saint Katherine	Posted - 2009.10.20 16:34:00 - [153] Originally by: Theophilas Does EVERYONE get it? It's like I am talking to a bunch Sanshas. I mean, are you serious? I'm taking offensive to that saying. The phrase "like I am talking to a bunch of Amarrian Priests." fits much better in the context. _________ _________ Time is on our side.
Tempus Iskander Gallente Les Enfants de Gaia	Posted - 2009.10.20 16:50:00 - [154] Originally by: Theophilas See? Jade says he has no fear and that he is a man of action, and then promptly does nothing. Does EVERYONE get it? It's like I am talking to a bunch Sanshas. I mean, are you serious? If I'm reading the op correctly Jade says she only values what she cares about and judges others on what they do more than what they say. Proposing a vote on a forum is not action and it means nothing. Why don't you get in a spaceship and actually DO something if you want Jade to respect you more. And since you seemed to ignore my challenge to you I guess that makes you a hypocrite right? ___________________________ Without fear and without reproach
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.20 17:07:00 - [155] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 20/10/2009 17:09:22 Originally by: Theophilas Does EVERYONE get it? It's like I am talking to a bunch Sanshas. I mean, are you serious? You seem to be getting a bit frustrated that EVERYONE else seems unable to see your point. I guess thats the problem with appealing to OTHERS to support an argument that you are incapable yourself of making. Question you need to ask yourself is what you have done to deserve a "vote". Indeed what has anybody we only interact with through the medium of Galnet done to deserve a "vote"? Nobody can give you a "vote." At least nobody can give you a "vote" with meaning. If you had power you could take a place at the table of equals and negotiate with others but since you lack power you have nothing to negotiate with. This is quite an important point to grasp and something you'd do well to learn. As for the Star Fraction and the table of Free Captains - we vote amongst ourselves. Because we have power and influence and the will to use these things and the respect of our peers. Hence our vote's matter. But nobody else has a seat at our table and nobody else gets a vote. I have no respect whatsoever for the powerless and have no reason to give powerless creatures like yourself a free helping of charity. If you were a child I'd consider helping your education in potential future self-interest, but as an adult who is voluntarily submitting yourself to public humiliation in the interests of further harming the name of your companion crusaders, I can only smile gently at your folly and move on. But do stop begging for things. Its quite demeaning. True Knowledge
Katyayani Koriau Amarr Holy Flying Death Nuns	Posted - 2009.10.20 17:14:00 - [156] Originally by: Theophilas So Jade claims he's a man of action, but won't call a vote. I call him a hypocrite for it, and I'm the one who doesn't understand my own words? That's, hyp+o+crite... Pronunciation: \ˈhi-pə-ˌkrit\ Function: noun 1 : a person who puts on a false appearance of virtue or religion 2 : a person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelings This would be the one I am looking at. See how it makes sense? If I say I am a man of action, then do nothing, I am in fact a hyp+o+crite. Disgusting animal pretending to be true Amarr. We don't vote you pig. You have been too long laying with minmatar s****and gotten their stink in your eyes! You should be whipped and purged till you beg!
Aphoxakhan Minmatar Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.20 18:08:00 - [157] Originally by: Tempus Iskander I challenge you to make a vote and see if people decide whether you should commit suicide and throw yourself into the clone recycling bay or not. This brave proposition excites me. I need not remind, yet shall do so, that Star Fraction would be under no obligation to consent to the suggestion of the popularity. The Lovely Anarchists are not The Lovely Glamour Syndicate, and have no use for the attention from The Eggshell Lurkers. It is only the outspoken and delightful nemesis of Star Fractions opposition that is needed to drive the anti-territoriality onslaught. It does say heavy coffers of indignant success that our deaths are wished for. Star Fraction is getting in someone's way. Terror in the sighs.
Theophilas Amarr Deus Imperiosus Acies	Posted - 2009.10.20 18:27:00 - [158] And the indomitable confusion held sway over all. -------------------------------------------------- Moral law is an invention of mankind for the disenfranchisement of the powerful in favor of the weak. Historical law subverts it at every tu
Aphoxakhan Minmatar Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.20 18:57:00 - [159] Originally by: Theophilas And the indomitable confusion held sway over all. We are chiseled from the sebum of death's iron skin; easily destroyed when understood but our tangents obfuscate our vulnerabilities. Reach forth and your hand shall be slapped, call out and we must hear. Totality, my pod is spoken for, and the cremated ideals sweat away as if they had never before existed. Terror in the sighs.
Semar	Posted - 2009.10.20 19:26:00 - [160] Theophilas, Silence towards the terrorist. That is Doctrine. Stop making the Empire look foolish. You need not speak to serve.
Theophilas Amarr Deus Imperiosus Acies	Posted - 2009.10.20 19:33:00 - [161] Originally by: Semar Theophilas, Silence towards the terrorist. That is Doctrine. Stop making the Empire look foolish. You need not speak to serve. Agreed. Truer words have never been spoken. I lost my head temporarily. Consider me a penitent. May God forgive me. -------------------------------------------------- Moral law is an invention of mankind for the disenfranchisement of the powerful in favor of the weak. Historical law subverts it at every tu
Darina Rea Sovereign Hospitaller Order of Saint Katherine	Posted - 2009.10.20 20:01:00 - [162] Following the.. ehhhh... 'discussion'. Originally by: Jade Constantine I have no respect whatsoever for the powerless and have no reason to give powerless creatures like yourself a free helping of charity. Interested question. Define the 'powerless'? Are these the people that can't defend themselves in a pod, like traders, miners or industrialists. Are these the people that don't defend themselves out of principle or faith. Are these the people that provide charity because it seems like a good cause. Are these the people that put a little trust in someone out of faith. Because I do know many a person that would absolutely make zero impact on the field of battle, in a pod, but that are more then good enough to be respected. _________ _________ Time is on our side.
Havohej Minmatar Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.20 20:24:00 - [163] If I'm wrong, she'll correct me. But I should think that by 'powerless', Miss Constantine refers to those who willingly forfeit their personal sovereignty in favor of obedience and support for those who would tell them where they may or may not go, what they may or may not do and what they may or may not dream. In fact, it seems to me that one purpose of raising this topic may have been to open the eyes of the ignorant, those who do not willingly forfeit their power but do so because they've never been presented with the means with which to consider other alternatives. If those people choose to remain powerless even after being presented with this 'true knowledge'... well, they can hardly expect sympathy, can they? "You can still steal their stuff." - CCP Explorer
Aphoxakhan Minmatar Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.20 20:36:00 - [164] Originally by: Theophilas Originally by: Semar Theophilas, Silence towards the terrorist. That is Doctrine. Stop making the Empire look foolish. You need not speak to serve. Agreed. Truer words have never been spoken. I lost my head temporarily. Consider me a penitent. May God forgive me. I am quaking with fear. Terror in the sighs.
Feyona R.E.C.O.N. Zenith Affinity	Posted - 2009.10.20 23:01:00 - [165] Edited by: Feyona on 20/10/2009 23:01:42 Originally by: Havohej Miss Constantine refers to those who willingly forfeit their personal sovereignty in favor of obedience and support for those who would tell them where they may or may not go, what they may or may not do Differentiate this from a fleet or a normal corporation with a CEO as a leader, who tells the person whom they may or may not shoot based on red and blue lists, and where they may or may not go based on fleet tactics and objectives. IE, organizations; it will make the argument... clearer. Because at that rate, everyone who works together towards a common goal under leadership could be considered powerless...
Havohej Minmatar Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.21 03:19:00 - [166] Originally by: Feyona Differentiate this from a fleet or a normal corporation with a CEO as a leader, who tells the person whom they may or may not shoot based on red and blue lists, and where they may or may not go based on fleet tactics and objectives. IE, organizations; it will make the argument... clearer. Because at that rate, everyone who works together towards a common goal under leadership could be considered powerless... To the contrary. You choose to work toward that common goal, or you choose not to. It's that simple... if we chose not to work toward The Star Fraction's common goal, for instance, we would leave The Star Fraction. We have the power to make that choice because we say so. "You can still steal their stuff." - CCP Explorer
Feyona R.E.C.O.N. Zenith Affinity	Posted - 2009.10.21 03:35:00 - [167] Originally by: Havohej Originally by: Feyona Differentiate this from a fleet or a normal corporation with a CEO as a leader, who tells the person whom they may or may not shoot based on red and blue lists, and where they may or may not go based on fleet tactics and objectives. IE, organizations; it will make the argument... clearer. Because at that rate, everyone who works together towards a common goal under leadership could be considered powerless... To the contrary. You choose to work toward that common goal, or you choose not to. It's that simple... if we chose not to work toward The Star Fraction's common goal, for instance, we would leave The Star Fraction. We have the power to make that choice because we say so. So very few people are actually powerless then. Perhaps the Sansha. Everyone can choose. Sometimes the alternative is death... but everyone can choose.
Trenchi	Posted - 2009.10.21 13:52:00 - [168] Originally by: Jade Constantine Still, the reality is that the active individual element of the identity is mortal from their own perspective while the continuing meta-identity is immortal from all others. I am immortal to you. You are immortal to me. isnt this the only thing that matters truly, what does the bigger picture matter if your dead. you come of as really idealistic.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.21 14:20:00 - [169] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 21/10/2009 14:23:07 Originally by: Darina Rea Following the.. ehhhh... 'discussion'. Originally by: Jade Constantine I have no respect whatsoever for the powerless and have no reason to give powerless creatures like yourself a free helping of charity. Interested question. Define the 'powerless'? In the context of the direct quote then the "powerless" would be those without the ability to impact or influence or otherwise affect the situation they are addressing. The Amarrian was begging for a public "vote" to decide something or other - and as I explained to him he lacked any kind of currency to buy a seat at the table of decision-making. A "vote" amongst people who otherwise lack the power to influence the matter at hand is meaningless. Hence the "powerless" in context would be pointless IGS posters without the courage or capability to achieve their stated aims in space. Still in the interests of debate I'll address your other points: Quote: Are these the people that can't defend themselves in a pod, like traders, miners or industrialists. No. Quote: Are these the people that don't defend themselves out of principle or faith. Potentially. For example if a person expressed the "principle" that they would always post on the IGS through hidden identities and proxies and nonetheless wished to condemn a person, organization or cause, then I'd describe them as "powerless" since they can only rail against a thing, not impact it in a substantive way. Quote: Are these the people that provide charity because it seems like a good cause. If it seems important to you to provide charity then its important to you. Whats good to you may not be good to me but then again it might be. In short the sentence above is too broad to give a definitive answer, but since the act of providing charity is at least an act (rather than merely talking about an intention) its rather less powerless than the example Theopholis provides on the previous page. Quote: Are these the people that put a little trust in someone out of faith? Possibly but hardly relevent. You make yourself powerless by railing against a thing with empty words more than anything. Quote: Because I do know many a person that would absolutely make zero impact on the field of battle, in a pod, but that are more then good enough to be respected. Ah but then I might respect them because by my own definitions they may have talents and personal attributes worthy of the respect. Take the example of Theopolis again ... he has the potential powers of an immortal capsuleer but he does not use them. He chooses instead to rant and rave impotently on the IGS to general mockery of all and sundry - yet when he had the opportunity to demonstrate his "faith" in space (when our organizations were wardecced against each other) he did nothing but crawl and shiver in space stations and occassionally got hunted down like a dog in fleeing punisher-class frigates. This isn't an impressive trait I think you'll agree. He is precisely "powerless" because he lacks the ability to achieve anything he speaks of. This is not a condition that anyone should respect. And then take the example of a hair-stylist I visit on the concourse of Kamela station - she is not a capsuleer, she lacks all combat-training and war-arts, and she is hardly a great financier or business mogul owning the single establishment and employing just a handful of staff. Yet she is extremely good at cutting and styling and has become a favourite of the Free Captains and our crews and has become a trusted business associate. She is not "powerless" because she provides a service we value - she achieves exactly what she promises on her holo-ads "a damn good haircut amongst the god-botherers for visitors who still have their hair!" I respect her because she achieves what she sets out to achieve. *** I trust you see the difference now? True Knowledge
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.10.21 14:29:00 - [170] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 21/10/2009 14:30:22 Originally by: Trenchi isnt this the only thing that matters truly, what does the bigger picture matter if your dead. you come of as really idealistic. You could ask the same question of a parent what matters to them the fate of the child once they themselves die. Or an artist of their work, or a brother their sister, of anything that will transcend the lifespan of the origin for that matter. All we are, all our memories and passions and desires and ambitions will live on - our identity IS immortal while the current speaking vessels may be less so. This is the reality of our existence and though it may change sooner than you expect - for now it is what we have to contend with. Idealism is no crime Trenchi and neither is an excess of idealism likely to lead us to stasis and willing slavery. Always dare to dream. True Knowledge
Codo Yagari Amarr	Posted - 2009.12.21 16:00:00 - [171] Edited by: Codo Yagari on 21/12/2009 16:01:42 I fail to see how anyone can label the original post anything but Egoism. --- Empress Jamyl I
Revan Neferis Amarr The Archaeus of Blood	Posted - 2009.12.21 16:03:00 - [172] Edited by: Revan Neferis on 21/12/2009 16:04:05 Mr Codo Yagari I want to ask: Who is the artist responsible for the Empress's Portrait displayed at your digital communication relays here? I'm very much interested to order his services to make one of similar beauty to enrich the halls of my Estates. Revan Neferis Thrice-Illustrious Sovereign Sani Sabik ...every fire needs a little bit help
ChipMo Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.12.21 17:19:00 - [173] Edited by: ChipMo on 21/12/2009 17:18:57 Originally by: Feyona So very few people are actually powerless then. Perhaps the Sansha. Everyone can choose. Sometimes the alternative is death... but everyone can choose. True, however an awful lot of these people are not conscious of this choice available to them, so in reality are powerless.
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.12.21 17:27:00 - [174] Originally by: ChipMo Originally by: Feyona So very few people are actually powerless then. Perhaps the Sansha. Everyone can choose. Sometimes the alternative is death... but everyone can choose. True, however an awful lot of these people are not conscious of this choice available to them, so in reality are powerless. I think a lot of people are aware of their choices, but merely don't like many of their choices. People that say 'I have no choice' often mean 'I don't have any choices I like'. Those people are not powerless, they feel powerless. Is it not their own responsiblity to achieve consciousness of their actual power and cast of their illusory chains of powerlessness according to you? ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.12.21 17:40:00 - [175] Edited by: Merdaneth on 21/12/2009 17:40:55 Originally by: Jade Constantine In the context of the direct quote then the "powerless" would be those without the ability to impact or influence or otherwise affect the situation they are addressing. The Amarrian was begging for a public "vote" to decide something or other - and as I explained to him he lacked any kind of currency to buy a seat at the table of decision-making. A "vote" amongst people who otherwise lack the power to influence the matter at hand is meaningless. Hence the "powerless" in context would be pointless IGS posters without the courage or capability to achieve their stated aims in space. Ah, but even those people can achieve their stated aims in space without actually ever being 'in space'. That is how leaders win wars ms. Constantine. Not by being in space but by convincing others to fight for them. And, the IGS would be an excellent platform to convince others to fight or not fight for a certain cause 'in space'. You of all people should appreciate the power of the IGS to get others to support or oppose your organization. In fact, your panicky responses against such supposedly powerless persons only supports the position that such people can affect you (in space). Originally by: Jade Constantine Possibly but hardly relevent. You make yourself powerless by railing against a thing with empty words more than anything. Powerless is used here in an odd context. One could claim you use empty words a lot. Does that make you powerless (in space)? I don't believe so, it merely makes you appear frustrated or powerless. Perhaps it affects your power in te long run by alienating people, but on the other hand, it can attract other malcontents. Originally by: Jade Constantine And then take the example of a hair-stylist I visit on the concourse of Kamela station - she is not a capsuleer, she lacks all combat-training and war-arts, and she is hardly a great financier or business mogul owning the single establishment and employing just a handful of staff. Yet she is extremely good at cutting and styling and has become a favourite of the Free Captains and our crews and has become a trusted business associate. She is not "powerless" because she provides a service we value - she achieves exactly what she promises on her holo-ads "a damn good haircut amongst the god-botherers for visitors who still have their hair!" I respect her because she achieves what she sets out to achieve. Ah, but you suppose the hair-stylist set out to achieve what you think she is trying to achieve. Perhaps she is merely trying to achieve gaining a trusted position with the fractioneers and hoping to relay valuable intel, and all her talk about hairstyles and her haircuts and friendly words to the Fractioneers are merely an empty facade? Your words again make little sense ms. Constantine. Your lack of ability to look at anything from another person's perspective is damaging your ability to make any sense of this universe. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
ChipMo Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.12.21 19:05:00 - [176] Originally by: Merdaneth I think a lot of people are aware of their choices, but merely don't like many of their choices. People that say 'I have no choice' often mean 'I don't have any choices I like'. Those people are not powerless, they feel powerless. And if they let that 'feeling' rule them, they are powerless in reality. I think we're saying the same thing really, just in two different ways. Originally by: Merdaneth Is it not their own responsiblity to achieve consciousness of their actual power and cast of their illusory chains of powerlessness according to you? Ultimately yes, but that does not mean we cannot help them on that journey. That is why I belong to SF, it is an organization helping to bring about a reality of personal sovereignty. Sure, I could sit back and wait for people to wake up entirely of their own accord over the course of the next millenia. However I chose to take a more proactive stance on two fronts; I try to talk people into taking control of their own lives, and I kill those who try to maintain the illusionary bonds on fellow men for their own personal gain.
D melanogaster Minmatar The Fruit Flys	Posted - 2009.12.21 20:32:00 - [177] tbh the only way to discourage all the trash written by SF pilots is to derail every single conversation. With that in mind, have you tried the grape flavored Quafe? It is delicious and only after trying it can you have true knowledge of its fruity goodness!
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.12.21 21:27:00 - [178] Originally by: Codo Yagari I fail to see how anyone can label the original post anything but Egoism. And your point is? True Knowledge
RubberDuckey No.Mercy	Posted - 2009.12.21 22:03:00 - [179] I noticed none of your propoganda transmission were currently being view, I lost the bet though. If only you had wait until tomorrow to make another transmission. Hey though you covered my spread as I said you'd do more than one.
Codo Yagari Amarr	Posted - 2009.12.22 08:37:00 - [180] Edited by: Codo Yagari on 22/12/2009 08:38:41 Greetings Lady Neferis. The portrait was given as a gift by a monk of the Atum-Setir Monastery in Dam-Torsad, but I am unaware of the name of the artist. However, I cherish the gift highly. Copies of it can be found here: http://img6.xooimage.com/files/6/e/2/whosonline-c74bf8.png Best wishes, Codo Yagari Deliverance Reclaimed station, 9UY4-H, Providence --- Empress Jamyl I
Revan Neferis Amarr The Archaeus of Blood	Posted - 2009.12.22 10:00:00 - [181] Originally by: Codo Yagari Edited by: Codo Yagari on 22/12/2009 08:38:41 Greetings Lady Neferis. The portrait was given as a gift by a monk of the Atum-Setir Monastery in Dam-Torsad, but I am unaware of the name of the artist. However, I cherish the gift highly. Copies of it can be found here: http://img6.xooimage.com/files/6/e/2/whosonline-c74bf8.png Best wishes, Codo Yagari Deliverance Reclaimed station, 9UY4-H, Providence Thank you for the information. It's a wonderful piece of Art. May Jamyl I live forever. Revan Neferis Thrice-Illustrious Sovereign Sani Sanik ...every fire needs a little bit help
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.12.22 16:36:00 - [182] Originally by: Revan Neferis Originally by: Codo Yagari Edited by: Codo Yagari on 22/12/2009 08:38:41 Greetings Lady Neferis. The portrait was given as a gift by a monk of the Atum-Setir Monastery in Dam-Torsad, but I am unaware of the name of the artist. However, I cherish the gift highly. Copies of it can be found here: http://img6.xooimage.com/files/6/e/2/whosonline-c74bf8.png Best wishes, Codo Yagari Deliverance Reclaimed station, 9UY4-H, Providence Thank you for the information. It's a wonderful piece of Art. May Jamyl I live forever. Revan Neferis Thrice-Illustrious Sovereign Sani Sanik The larger portrait and context of the propaganda piece released by Jamyl Sarum on her return may also be found here True Knowledge
R0GAL D0RN Minmatar Soul Drinkers	Posted - 2009.12.22 18:22:00 - [183] So Jade Constantine, all these words only to say that you are no more than a terrorist operating under the cloak of false self centered idealism. In all your text, and especially in its end, one who takes a closer look can only conclude that you are no better, only one more "option", than the instituted powers of the empires and their myriad sub-factions and sub-sects. You sell ships to fund your group of terrorists and further your actions against the very people you address, it is not some crusade against corruption or imperialism, its pure and simple business, like a nerve stick dealer claiming he brings "happyness" to its costumers, that are no more than mere victims and interests under your own perspective you, and your group, are no more than terrorists.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.12.22 18:27:00 - [184] Originally by: R0GAL D0RN So Jade Constantine, all these words only to say that you are no more than a terrorist operating under the cloak of false self centered idealism. In all your text, and especially in its end, one who takes a closer look can only conclude that you are no better, only one more "option", than the instituted powers of the empires and their myriad sub-factions and sub-sects. You sell ships to fund your group of terrorists and further your actions against the very people you address, it is not some crusade against corruption or imperialism, its pure and simple business, like a nerve stick dealer claiming he brings "happyness" to its costumers, that are no more than mere victims and interests under your own perspective you, and your group, are no more than terrorists. You have understood nothing. I recommend you go back and try again. True Knowledge
Confliktus Caldari Saiyans United	Posted - 2009.12.22 18:31:00 - [185] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: R0GAL D0RN So Jade Constantine, all these words only to say that you are no more than a terrorist operating under the cloak of false self centered idealism. In all your text, and especially in its end, one who takes a closer look can only conclude that you are no better, only one more "option", than the instituted powers of the empires and their myriad sub-factions and sub-sects. You sell ships to fund your group of terrorists and further your actions against the very people you address, it is not some crusade against corruption or imperialism, its pure and simple business, like a nerve stick dealer claiming he brings "happyness" to its costumers, that are no more than mere victims and interests under your own perspective you, and your group, are no more than terrorists. You have understood nothing. I recommend you go back and try again. For one that abhors the powers to be you certainly dominate their response model.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.12.22 18:59:00 - [186] Originally by: Confliktus For one that abhors the powers to be you certainly dominate their response model. I think you may need to rephrase that. Perhaps in the form of a question? True Knowledge
Confliktus Caldari Saiyans United	Posted - 2009.12.22 21:58:00 - [187] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Confliktus For one that abhors the powers to be you certainly dominate their response model. I think you may need to rephrase that. Perhaps in the form of a question? No i don't, you understood fully what i meant when i picked up what you have responded to D0RN. You know he's a bit right, your rethoric sounds more like the one of a sallesman than that of a freedom fighter.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.12.22 23:02:00 - [188] Originally by: Confliktus No i don't, you understood fully what i meant when i picked up what you have responded to D0RN. If I understood what you said I wouldn't have asked you to rephrase the commment. What you said makes no sense at all. It is much easier to communicate if you are clear. True Knowledge
Carolyn Siward Minmatar Amarres Eunt Domus	Posted - 2009.12.23 13:28:00 - [189] Your wife is a slaver. Your argument is invalid. Amarrians Go Home
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.12.23 16:40:00 - [190] Originally by: Carolyn Siward Your wife is a slaver. Your argument is invalid. Perhaps Ms. Constantine is just an anarchist professionally, but not personally. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Carolyn Siward Minmatar Amarres Eunt Domus	Posted - 2009.12.24 21:26:00 - [191] Originally by: Carolyn Siward Inappropriate language removed.Applebabe Pathetic. When did it become inappropriate? Ms. Constantine is the wife of Ms. Neferis. Ms. Neferis is a slaver. Therefore, to say: "Your wife is a slaver." is inappropriate? Amarrians Go Home
Revan Neferis Amarr The Archaeus of Blood	Posted - 2010.01.05 12:51:00 - [192] Originally by: Jade Constantine The larger portrait and context of the propaganda piece released by Jamyl Sarum on her return may also be found here Oh my how could I miss to answer that my beloved Thank you beautiful. Revan Neferis Thrice-Illustrious Sovereign Sani Sabik Where love exists peace is victory and beauty is exulted. Where love does not then peace cannot exist, and vendetta is the only truth.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.01.14 15:15:00 - [193] Originally by: Merdaneth Originally by: Carolyn Siward Inappropriate language removed.Applebabe Perhaps Ms. Constantine is just an anarchist professionally, but not personally. I do hope you were not repeating the ungraceful language of your 24th Crusade companions again there Merdenath. I would have thought you learned the lesson of such mistakes last time? True Knowledge
Tetseptus Minmatar Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.01.15 12:30:00 - [194] I am glad that I have taken the time to read this entire topic, though it is a double-edged sword. On the one hand I have found myself inspired anew as I always do when I read the insightful rhetoric of Star FractionÆs gifted leader and the intelligent contributions to the debate it has begun, but on the other I am reminded of why I so rarely subject myself to the IGS and its crowds of clamouring clowns clucking and crowing the same things over and over again. What amazes me in particular is the number of people that comment whilst also unashamedly admitting that they have not even taken the time to read the op. ôBut Jade uses big words. But Jade uses too many words. But Jade says too many things in too many places.ö Do you really expect to be taken seriously? If Jade Constantine is leading her alliance well, if she is more prolific in the Inter-Galactic Summit than anybody else, if she is present in space or leading fleets, and æputting her money where her mouth isÆ to coin an ancient phrase, then could it not simply be that she is a very good and tireless leader? Could it not be that she is actually just doing everything she claims to be doing for all of the reasons that she claims to be doing them? Have any of you rote-speaking stooges considered that Jade Constantine may simply be doing a better job of leading her alliance than anyone else you have ever encountered? This would certainly account for the way that the vast majority of her critics appear to be those who have either been felled here at the IGS or elsewhere in space. Those that this does not apply to are likely those that do not read Jade ConstantineÆs reasoned arguments, and instead accept as ætruthÆ the testament of those that write shorter posts with smaller words in. The fundamental truth here, the æTrue KnowledgeÆ as it is referred to, is that if you can free yourself, you have a home in Star Fraction, and near-enough nowhere else. Self-interest in the case of the Star Fraction includes all things that interest the individual. If you assume that all Star Fraction pilots are essentially good people, with the interests of other good people at heart, then you see that our self-interest almost certainly includes doing the best for the people we can help in almost all cases. Slavery, categorically and without exception, is abhorrent and wrong. That is not simply opinion. Any that attest otherwise are slaves themselves to a philosophy that is inherently flawed. Slavers need to free themselves to understand, and any that do not free themselves are quite simply not embracing their transhumanism. If it seems to non-Fractionists that we are arrogant, aloof or otherwise condescending, it is because we can justifiably consider ourselves more enlightened and more free. This leads some of us to throw our hands in the air sometimes and just laugh out loud at the vitriol and spite that comes from the unenlightened, when all we want to do is free them and help them. As for a vote on whether or not people like Jade Constantine, how preposterous? Should the vermin-exterminator present a vote on how popular he is to the vermin, and worse still, does a particular vermin have the right to start that vote itself? I refer you to my above statement regarding the nature of our opposition. There may well be a majority of IGS regulars that want to vote negatively on such a vote, but how is this relevant? The IGS is by no means representative of all capsuleers in the cluster. Many abstain, largely because, in order to say anything worthwhile, they have to wade through pages of mindless and directionless opposition to the op, that the critics didnÆt even read, before they can post their informed and reasoned point of view. Tetseptus, Vherokior Fighter 2nd Generation Free-Born Antipirate
Carolyn Siward Minmatar Amarres Eunt Domus	Posted - 2010.01.15 12:34:00 - [195] Originally by: Tetseptus Slavery, categorically and without exception, is abhorrent and wrong. That is not simply opinion. Any that attest otherwise are slaves themselves to a philosophy that is inherently flawed. Well then. There you have it. Amarrians Go Home
Tetseptus Minmatar Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.01.15 12:35:00 - [196] If we were to trim away all the plaintive cries of ôToo many words.ö, ôThe words are too big.ö, ôI donÆt like Jade.ö, ô<Insert spurious lies or out-of-context quote here>ö, and ôIÆm a bit intellectually-challenged.ö, and so on, not to mention Jade having to reiterate again and again, ôPlease read the op before joining the debate.ö, the thread would be a good deal smaller. I must confess that Merdaneth is very entertaining as slavers go. Well done, Merdaneth. Next time you come, can you wear something a little more fitting with your role in the debate? Something colourful perhaps, with bells? You could have a costume that matches or compliments TheophilasÆ performance. You made one moderately good point, however. I too liked the story of the Speaker of Truths. In this instance, however, he is the exception that proves the rule. Havohej makes one of the most pertinent observations in the entire thread here: Originally by: Havohej If I'm wrong, she'll correct me. But I should think that by 'powerless', Miss Constantine refers to those who willingly forfeit their personal sovereignty in favor of obedience and support for those who would tell them where they may or may not go, what they may or may not do and what they may or may not dream. In fact, it seems to me that one purpose of raising this topic may have been to open the eyes of the ignorant, those who do not willingly forfeit their power but do so because they've never been presented with the means with which to consider other alternatives. If those people choose to remain powerless even after being presented with this 'true knowledge'... well, they can hardly expect sympathy, can they? Tetseptus, Vherokior Fighter 2nd Generation Free-Born Antipirate
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2010.01.15 17:24:00 - [197] Originally by: Tetseptus Self-interest in the case of the Star Fraction includes all things that interest the individual. If you assume that all Star Fraction pilots are essentially good people, with the interests of other good people at heart, then you see that our self-interest almost certainly includes doing the best for the people we can help in almost all cases. Slavery, categorically and without exception, is abhorrent and wrong. That is not simply opinion. Any that attest otherwise are slaves themselves to a philosophy that is inherently flawed. Slavers need to free themselves to understand, and any that do not free themselves are quite simply not embracing their transhumanism. If you want to prove that slavery is an universal wrong rather than just wrong in your opinion, you need to come up with some convincing arguments independent of your opinion. I'm not seeing you state anything other than your opinion. Your reasoning can be applied equally to any subject, for example: "Anarchism, categorically and without exception, is abhorrent and wrong. That is not simply opinion. Any that attest otherwise are devoted themselves to a philosophy that is inherently flawed. Anarchists need to become non-anarchists to understand, and any that do not become non-anarchists themselves are quite simply not embracing their non-anarchism." Perhaps it made sense to you, mr. Tetseptus, but your arguments don't say anything really. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Evet Morrel Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.01.17 02:35:00 - [198] Although the ideas I set down here are both sympathetic and inspired by The Star Fraction (SF), I speak for myself in the tradition of the free captains, unfortunately with considerably less poetry than Jade. From reading Jade it's clear that many misunderstand our position, which is a profoundly spiritual one. While free captains don't conceive of themselves as made in the image of God, there is only one possible conception of God: that God is nothing but freedom; and freedom is our main concern. We seek freedom on the firmest possible grounds, while our detractors seek God or the greater good. I will return to the greater good. Our ambition is the infinite, and what could be more infinite than human subjectivity? One cannot resolve the subjective, it is ever present; the subject can neither conceive of its own boundaries nor its own origin outside of itself, and therefore the subjective is both infinite and omnipresent. The subject, of course, has an added advantage over God, that of actually existing. I will refer to a statement I made to a group of Minmatar fighters on the nature of the spirit of the individual when I first joined SF: "... we understand that the difference between individuals is not race, we know that in reality it is within the relations of production, the complex of social relations, in the forms of ownership, for example [referring to slavery]. Here therefore is the 'spirit' of the individual contained within the travail of history, their rational and emotional hopes. The degree of "spirituality" is in fact a measure of the historical development of the freedoms of the individual and no more than this." There is a fallacy central to the position adopted by the State/Nation/Religion, but as they are all of a piece I will call them the nationalists. Namely, that the individual is destructive and venal, and would, given the freedom, arrogate and consume everything herself. I contend this is an absurd position based on a fallacy in support of a myth, sometimes described as the 'magnificent myth'* or indeed the 'noble lie'*. First the fallacy is only credible if you assume scarcity. This is of course a natural assumption, we have been subject to such circumstances in our prehistory, namely that the ideal limit, excluding other checks, on the geometric growth of a population is the arithmetic growth of resources. However, this has not been true for hundreds of thousands of years. It is a lie in support of the myth of stratified society: between workers and bosses, between slaves and masters, between exploiters and the exploited, between the oppressors and the oppressed. This myth perpetuates a hierarchy, which in reality is designed to do no more than defend the interests and influence of an opportunist psychopathic elite. (continued)
Evet Morrel Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.01.17 02:42:00 - [199] To speak now of 'the greater good', here I will touch on the Star Fraction's transhumanist doctrine, or to paraphrase: "We, ... the lucky few, not only to have reached escape velocity - leaving behind that ancient gravity well, that all pervasive orthogenesis - but we are also those who embrace the coming saltation and would have it as a common treasury for all." The significance of this is twofold: firstly, this is about true equality, equality of access, but perhaps even of outcomes; for, I have never heard of a capsuler who is ultimately excluded from a course of self improvement by some endogenous limitation. The nationalists see the individual as limited by her subjectivity, or her spirit, and therefore they strive to make the subject an object. In the case of the Amarr this is a contradiction, a denial of the individual's resemblance to God, but I submit there is a cynical explanation for this. The nationalists superficially offer, through the social contract or submission, inter alia equality, but in reality they coerce homogeny. There are, of course, a multiplicity of distinct and contradictory forms of political domination/freedoms within each, dependant upon one's position in the respective hierarchies, but I digress. Secondly, Jade refers to eternal life, this is vital. Game theory shows that the longer the term, the higher the payoff for altruism, if indeed it can still be called altruism. Thus, the historical development of freedoms, her eternal life, obviates the assumption of an optimal strategy to negotiation, based on a finite number of turns; but this position is also structural and intimately connected to freedom. Freedom can not be absolute, we may rush toward it, accelerating forever, but never reach it. For the simple reason that absolute freedom has no content, it is an attractor only. If it has a shape, a shape implies an end, and from a shape you can infer a constraint. This is also, of course, a good argument for the non-existance of a God that has any shape or any end, in short, that requires anything from anyone. This provides us with a new structural definition of freedom. So freedom's limits are internal, and freedom must assume the existence of the freedom of others as constitutive of its own freedom. "We [the Star Fraction], for our part, are motivated, to quote an ancient revolutionary, ô... by great feelings of loveö for freedom, for our fellows, for life."* Herein, I believe, lies not only an explanation of the policies of The Star Fraction, but also its brilliance.
Edthin	Posted - 2010.01.22 13:05:00 - [200] Edited by: Edthin on 22/01/2010 13:11:53 It's amazing that the group dedicated to personal freedom in space is probably the most lockstep organization I've seen so far.
The Cosmopolite Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.01.22 13:20:00 - [201] Originally by: Edthin It's amazing that the group dedicated to personal freedom in space is probably the most lockstep organization I've seen so far. Compared to? Please, do give us the benefit of your vast experience in this matter. This must be a subject close to your heart, after all you chose to make your first GalNet contribution ever on the topic. Incidentally, 'lockstep' is not defined as 'they disagree with me so therefore they must be in lockstep'. Something you really should learn if you intend to get on in life. The Cosmopolite
Andreus LeHane Gallente Mixed Metaphor	Posted - 2010.01.22 13:34:00 - [202] I would feel much more inclined to support the cause of Star Fraction if they were to learn the value of being succinct.
Molien Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2010.01.22 14:28:00 - [203] There is a major flaw in that theory. Capsuleers are not immortal. When locked in our pods we are protected to some extent from physical harm, accidents with the technology are not unheard of. Likewise, when out of our pods we are as fragile as any other being who is not compatible with them. There is always a hierarchy. To believe that there isn't or that there can exist a reality without one, is a lie. No one is equal. To all be equal, we would all have to be the same, and such thing can not be said as we each have different experiences and those experiences change us. Followers of the true faith, however, accept this universal truth, and work with it, we do not spread the lie of equality to bring others into following us.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.01.22 21:00:00 - [204] Originally by: Molien There is a major flaw in that theory. Capsuleers are not immortal. When locked in our pods we are protected to some extent from physical harm, accidents with the technology are not unheard of. Likewise, when out of our pods we are as fragile as any other being who is not compatible with them. The lie has been put this this assertion many times. We who have achieved the parallel consciousness of "jump-cloning" realize well the essential replaceably of a singular physical entity. Beyond this advances in mindstate backup and replication now certainly provide point of physical death upload to central store and re-sleeving across the cluster. Continue telling untruths to children about the terrible things that "can happen" to bad capsuleers monsieur - but we immortals march onwards and realize your fears are just vapor and dust akin to your false patriach dipped drunkenly from the throne of past ignorance. Quote: There is always a hierarchy. To believe that there isn't or that there can exist a reality without one, is a lie. No one is equal. To all be equal, we would all have to be the same, and such thing can not be said as we each have different experiences and those experiences change us. If you are a painter and I am a great cook must we acknowledge our place in the pecking order to trade your art for my delicious dinner? Or could we simply exchange our gifts and each be the richer for it. Why is the product of our talent and genius enriched by a hierarchy to tell us which is superior to the other? I maintain it is not. I tell you free trade between sovereign free individuals is always superior to bound labour by submissive victims of an oppressive state. For example. Why is your own corporation in such disarray? Why have you failed in war and are unable to muster fleets and demonstrations of power that once you managed? I would say this is indicative of the failure of hierarchy and imperial corruption. When an association of free individuals and volunteer owner-captains such as the Fraction can outclass the PIE militiary to such an evident and wild degree as seen in recent conflicts you have to ask yourself which is the most beneficial and productive ideology in comparison. Quote: Followers of the true faith, however, accept this universal truth, and work with it, we do not spread the lie of equality to bring others into following us. Open your eyes. Your faith is simply a confidence trick and you have been gulled into kneeling to a false god. But you are an immortal and a future of freedom awaits if you will only dare to rise from submission and dream of further skies. True Knowledge
Molien Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2010.01.22 21:28:00 - [205] Originally by: Jade Constantine The lie has been put this this assertion many times. We who have achieved the parallel consciousness of "jump-cloning" realize well the essential replaceably of a singular physical entity. Beyond this advances in mindstate backup and replication now certainly provide point of physical death upload to central store and re-sleeving across the cluster. Continue telling untruths to children about the terrible things that "can happen" to bad capsuleers monsieur - but we immortals march onwards and realize your fears are just vapor and dust akin to your false patriach dipped drunkenly from the throne of past ignorance. I'm sorry, are you stating that the fraction have access to some supremely powerful and secret technology such that you no longer need the scanners and systems associated with pods that allow for our cloning? You are honestly putting forth the belief that you, outside of any technology, can jump from one clone to another? Sorry, but such a technology does not exist. Originally by: Jade Constantine If you are a painter and I am a great cook must we acknowledge our place in the pecking order to trade your art for my delicious dinner? Or could we simply exchange our gifts and each be the richer for it. Why is the product of our talent and genius enriched by a hierarchy to tell us which is superior to the other? I maintain it is not. So, you suggest that a glorious dinner you laboured for 12 hours to make, with rare ingredients from across the galaxy is of the same value as the scribble of warp tech who had a few minutes during a coffee break, and that you would freely trade one for the other? Come now, that is a lie and we know it. Thus, there is a hierarchy. Originally by: Jade Constantine For example. Why is your own corporation in such disarray? Why have you failed in war and are unable to muster fleets and demonstrations of power that once you managed? I would say this is indicative of the failure of hierarchy and imperial corruption. When an association of free individuals and volunteer owner-captains such as the Fraction can outclass the PIE militiary to such an evident and wild degree as seen in recent conflicts you have to ask yourself which is the most beneficial and productive ideology in comparison. Such things have not occurred in my time as a pilot. What has occurred, is the destruction of several Fraction starbases leading to the withdraw of the forces from once-occupied territory, the Electus Matari forces exploiting failures of technology to claim systems and bolster the floundering Minmatar front lines, and then their withdrawl once again from the battle. While PIE continues to perform our work, undaunted and with faith.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.01.22 21:51:00 - [206] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 22/01/2010 21:51:23 Originally by: Molien I'm sorry, are you stating that the fraction have access to some supremely powerful and secret technology such that you no longer need the scanners and systems associated with pods that allow for our cloning? I am telling you here and now that you cannot under any circumstance or capability prevent the continuation of my identity in recloning. In the capsule, outside the capsule or in any other way, shape, means or angle of attack. Quote: Such things have not occurred in my time as a pilot. What has occurred, is the destruction of several Fraction starbases leading to the withdraw of the forces from once-occupied territory, the Electus Matari forces exploiting failures of technology to claim systems and bolster the floundering Minmatar front lines, and then their withdrawl once again from the battle. While PIE continues to perform our work, undaunted and with faith. With such delusions I will leave you. PIE is nothing. True Knowledge
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2010.01.22 21:57:00 - [207] Originally by: Jade Constantine If you are a painter and I am a great cook must we acknowledge our place in the pecking order to trade your art for my delicious dinner? Or could we simply exchange our gifts and each be the richer for it. Why is the product of our talent and genius enriched by a hierarchy to tell us which is superior to the other? Indeed. I've never quite understood the need for some people to put people down others by calling them 'dogs' or ignoring their opinions because they are new graduates and thus not high enough in some imagined pecking order to consider respond to them. Please don't be a hypocrite ms. Constantine, you are constantly concerning yourself with all kinds of hierarchies and pecking orders. Why is space not enriched by my favorite choice of ship, the Crusader? At least, you seem to speak unfavorably of my choice of ship, as if it is somehow negative? ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
The Cosmopolite Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.01.22 22:37:00 - [208] Originally by: Molien Originally by: Jade Constantine If you are a painter and I am a great cook must we acknowledge our place in the pecking order to trade your art for my delicious dinner? Or could we simply exchange our gifts and each be the richer for it. Why is the product of our talent and genius enriched by a hierarchy to tell us which is superior to the other? I maintain it is not. So, you suggest that a glorious dinner you laboured for 12 hours to make, with rare ingredients from across the galaxy is of the same value as the scribble of warp tech who had a few minutes during a coffee break, and that you would freely trade one for the other? Come now, that is a lie and we know it. Thus, there is a hierarchy. The simple fact is that an artificial hierarchy, imposed from above by violence or other coercive means, is not in any way, shape, size or form the same as an appreciation of the value of an object, service or opinion by a given person using freely-chosen factors to determine worth. But trying to fit rational concepts into an irrational, and at times simply bizarre, framework is what Amarrian loyalists have to do to stand any chance at all of pulling the wool over people's eyes on subjects such as slavery, imperialism, hierarchy, conquest and a whole slew of things that the Amarrian state superstition mandates but which no rational and intelligent person would consider morally supportable. Ultimately, if the 'scribble' by the warp tech has artistic merit in the eyes of the person assessing it, that person may find it of sufficient value to exchange it for a goodly sum or some equivalence in goods or services. It's a poor gambit by the Amarrian paramilitary Molien because it is a matter of taste and the assignment of value to artistic works is highly subjective. Yon loyalist may stick to an artificial hierarchy of artistic merit (no doubt mandated by some snaggle-toothed priest sotted on ritual wine and more familiar with the lash than the artist's brush) but his suggestion that people who don't subscribe to his hierarchy of tastes are liars says far more about the depth of brainwashing he suffers under than it says about anything else. The point is that it is as improper to impose an artificial hierarchy of taste and merit on the appreciation of fine works as it is to impose an artificial hierarchy on human interactions. The denial of hierarchy is not though the equivalent of accepting that the words of every smooth-chinned yahoo and slope-browed loon must be listened to with deep respect as if they are the words of a seasoned greybeard wise in the ways of the universe. I value the voice of experience. I value rather less the prattlings of the ignorant and the mewlings of kitlings not five minutes detached from the teat. The Cosmopolite The Star Fraction Communications Portal
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2010.01.22 22:44:00 - [209] Originally by: The Cosmopolite I value the voice of experience. I value rather less the prattlings of the ignorant and the mewlings of kitlings not five minutes detached from the teat. And with this valuation you impose an artifical hierarchy upon the expression of opinion, which is a form of human interaction. As you are well aware, the assignment of worth to opinions is highly subjective as best, as it it with art. Hence the hypocrisy. You value some things higher than others, and those valuation affect how you treat those matters, hence you impose an artificial hierarchy on things. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
The Cosmopolite Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.01.23 00:08:00 - [210] No hypocrisy here whatever. You are having difficulty with the concepts and terminology. An artificial hierarchy is one that is imposed externally using force, other forms of coercion, appeals to the hive mind, peer pressure and other artificial and irrelevant factors of that kind. I impose nothing. I certainly impose no artificial hierarchy. I am not telling other people how to value anything. They must make up their minds for themselves. I am simply relating how I choose to value things. If you are proposing to tell me that choosing for myself how to value things is oppressive behaviour then I am going to laugh in your face. If I am not to value things according to an externally imposed hierarchy of values then how should I go about valuing things? The simple answer is that I should go about valuing things according to factors that matter to me. This is not artificial. This is very real. It is real for me and I make no claim that others must adhere to what I consider real value. I may on the other hand seek to persuade and argue that one thing is of value over and above another but I am not going to artificially impose a value on something. If I seek to sell an item, I must persuade others to meet the price that I put on it or I will not sell the item at all. I do not go with a gun to potential buyers and say you must buy this item at the price I set or suffer the consequences. That is what the state does. The state imposes an artificial hierarchy or framework on values through taxation, tariffs, subsidies and all manner of pernicious devices. To suggest that valuation of things according to one's inclinations and preferences is to impose on others an artificial hierarchy is balderdash. People are free to variously reject, scorn, mock, agree or be indifferent to the values I place on things. Just as I am free to do likewise with respect to the values other people place on things. The essence of free trade is the agreement of two parties to a price for an item according to factors that are relevant to each party. They are not being artificial when they do this. When the state comes along and starts imposing taxes and tariffs and all manner of artificial inflations then we enter the territory of artificial value and hierarchy. So it is with art. So it is with speech. I am afraid that the one aspect of freedom of speech that many people who would not know freedom from a blancmange always struggle with is the freedom not to listen. It is, in the final analysis, just as important as the freedom to be heard. The Cosmopolite The Star Fraction Communications Portal
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2010.01.23 00:42:00 - [211] Quote: No hypocrisy here whatever. You are having difficulty with the concepts and terminology. An artificial hierarchy is one that is imposed externally using force, other forms of coercion, appeals to the hive mind, peer pressure and other artificial and irrelevant factors of that kind. Withholding exchange of opinions or not engaging in conversation because you value someones opinion beneath your worth because of his few days as a pod pilot is most certainly coercion. I'm sure you are familiar with the practice of shunning and its power of coercion. Ridiculing and cursing can similarly be employed as a means of coercion. Not all coercion needs to be at gunpoint, you should be well aware of that. Quote: I impose nothing. I certainly impose no artificial hierarchy. I am not telling other people how to value anything. They must make up their minds for themselves. I am simply relating how I choose to value things. If you are proposing to tell me that choosing for myself how to value things is oppressive behaviour then I am going to laugh in your face. No, I am not. The valuing in itself holds no coercion, but if you choose a different behaviour on the basis of your valuation, you might be engaged in coercion. Maybe it is not your intention to coerce others, I can believe that. Maybe it is not your intention to impose your (or even a) hierarchy upon others. I can believe that. But to state that you aren't imposing and coercing simply because you don't intend too is misunderstanding the nature of coercion. I dont believe Freedom Fighter will let slavers go free because they didn't intend harm. Quote: It is real for me and I make no claim that others must adhere to what I consider real value. This I can believe. This might be a difference between us, but your acts most certainly coerce and impose upon others, even if you don't want to. You must agree with me that Star Fraction has and is continuing to influence the actions of others, often against their will. They do so because according to their own valuations they place the beliefs of the targets beneath their own on some hierarchical scale. Quote: I may on the other hand seek to persuade and argue that one thing is of value over and above another but I am not going to artificially impose a value on something. If I seek to sell an item, I must persuade others to meet the price that I put on it or I will not sell the item at all. I do not go with a gun to potential buyers and say you must buy this item at the price I set or suffer the consequences. When does imposing a value become artificial? Once someone holds a gun? If I try to persuade others to behave differently by calling them 'dog' or ignoring their opinions, am I not artificially imposing values? Does one need implied violence of the physical kind to cross that barrier? Quote: When the state comes along and starts imposing taxes and tariffs and all manner of artificial inflations then we enter the territory of artificial value and hierarchy. I've never seen 'a state' coming along and do so. I do see people, saying they represent a state, trying to impose their values. Is a person that says he represents a state magically artificial while a person who does not say so is non-artificial? When will it become apparent to you that all people are trying to influence, seduce and coerce each other and that the act is not fundamentally different if a person calls himself a state officer, a pirate, a member of the conglomerate of free traders or an anarchist? Of course, the threat of an organized group is greater than an unorganized individual. A conglomerate of traders is more likely to succeed in getting their price than a single trader. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
The Cosmopolite Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.01.23 16:30:00 - [212] As usual your reply is riddled with abuse of language and nonsensical statements. The suggestion that my decision not to engage in a conversation with someone is equivalent to coercion is, quite simply, demented. You ask when imposing a value becomes artificial. The answer is always. The problem is that your device is to misuse the term 'impose'. If I set a price on an item it reflects its value to me. I force no-one to buy the item at that price. If someone values the item sufficiently to meet my price then they can buy the item. If they don't they are free not to buy. This is not imposing anything whatever on anyone. Now, your project, for some time, has been to try and obfuscate and confuse real coercion with things that are not coercion at all û as above with the ludicrous suggestion that ignoring someone is coercion. Another example is your attempt to conflate 'influence' with 'coercion'. We all know why you must try to muddy the waters in this regard. If you cannot portray normal, non-violent relations between individuals as some kind of 'coercion' then you cannot defend the appalling morality and practices of the Amarrian Empire. We have had this discussion many times before. We have also discussed the justification of reactive violence in the face of those who initiate violence with no justification many times before. In the end, you are someone who is on the record as regarding slavery to be akin to rearing children. That is all anyone needs to know, when all is said and done, to appreciate what a warped and perverted outlook you have on the question of coercion and related matters. No rational person can take seriously anything you say on the subject of coercion and violence knowing that. The Cosmopolite The Star Fraction Communications Portal
Azure Skyclad Amarr Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2010.01.23 16:45:00 - [213] Originally by: Merdaneth Some prattle. Do they charge you much for the repairs Merd? You must have some discount card from the magic sky man because the implosive damage you do to internal bulkheads with your density must be rather catastrophic. I've seen less dense neutron stars. http://ultravixen.co.uk/
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.01.24 02:14:00 - [214] Originally by: The Cosmopolite In the end, you are someone who is on the record as regarding slavery to be akin to rearing children. That is all anyone needs to know, when all is said and done, to appreciate what a warped and perverted outlook you have on the question of coercion and related matters. No rational person can take seriously anything you say on the subject of coercion and violence knowing that. The Cosmopolite I find myself with little to add to my comrade's sound rebuttle of the loyalist's prattle than to re-empathise this statement that "children are slaves" on the part of our hierarchical foes. Nobody is free to think clearly while he holds another sentient captive and depends on bonded labour for sustinence. True Knowledge
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.02.06 14:26:00 - [215] Originally by: Merdaneth Why is space not enriched by my favorite choice of ship, the Crusader? At least, you seem to speak unfavorably of my choice of ship, as if it is somehow negative? I noticed you claiming somewhere else that I had "complained" about your piloting of a Crusader class interceptor also. I think you are making that up. I have noted that your chosen tactics in said vessel are very conservative, risk-averse, concerned mainly with scoring "touches" in larger engagements to enrich the "K/D ratio" of your organization in various combat databases etc etc. But that is hardly "complaining" - I am simply noting the rationale you must use to fly the ship near exclusively. I have noted in turn that the impact you make on battle is limited due to your preference but that again is simply factual. Take your recent interjections on your patrols into Sev3rance space were you claimed to be defending your allies against Black Lustrum by flitting from empty belt to empty belt while the Sev3rance miners remained too terrified to undock and utilize their own industrial upgrades. Its self-evident that the Crusader itself doesn't make a wonderful mining platform so you couldn't have been aiding the industrial index directly, and since the Sev3rance miners didn't appear confident enough in your protections to come themselves to the belts with their barges its doubtful your presence aided them much. Perhaps if you had been in a battleship they might have felt more confident to risk it? Who knows really. But it is likely that your choice of a small/evasive craft of limited firepower and endurance did not fill them with confidence. But I don't criticise or complain Merdaneth. You are a pilot from a small and largely ineffective nationalist entity and you do what you can to spread your personal tyranny whenever you can. I recognise that. True Knowledge
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.02.19 17:29:00 - [216] Originally by: Edthin It's amazing that the group dedicated to personal freedom in space is probably the most lockstep organization I've seen so far. And this is why its not an alliance for pasty-faced hand-wringing liberalist fops. When you join Star Fraction you join a revolutionary movement and we ask you some penetrating questions in the interview û how far are you prepared to go? WeÆre a band of guerrilla fighters in the trenches of the only fight that matters û weÆre saboteurs carrying bombs, weÆre raiders in the capitals of entrenched power, weÆre brothers in the movement each sworn to do what it takes to defend each other and the cause we espouse. WeÆre here to willingly sacrifice our time and effort to the cause of anti-nationalist agitation and counter-imperialist sedition. WeÆre all fire starters and provocateurs and we share a cause. And if that cause becomes too heavy or onerous then its time to leave and rejoin conventional society and we who continue to carry the fight will wish you well and honour the time we fought as comrades. This isnÆt just idle talk and itÆs not just rhetoric and flowery poetry. We're dead serious. The Free Captains of the Star Fraction are volunteer anarchist revolutionaries. Nobody should be here who does not want to be here. We voluntarily give up our total individual sovereignty to work together to the interests of the cause. If free captains are prepared to do this then they have a place in the active revolutionary organization. If they donÆt then they have a place as friends and collaborators, allies and contacts in the wider cluster. But to those that can make that commitment I salute and embrace you. The stars and beauty of violent and enduring revolution await us. Now then. Lets talk about how we can bring some real terror to the enemies of freespace and posthuman liberation. True Knowledge
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2010.02.19 17:39:00 - [217] Originally by: Jade Constantine We voluntarily give up our total individual sovereignty to work together to the interests of the cause. The irony in this statement is simply delicious. Giving up total individual sovereignty to achieve total individual sovereignty? If there were two Star Fraction like organization you would likely be bombing and raiding each other, right? Ms. Constantine, I do wonder, what areas of 'individual sovereignity' have you voluntary given up in the cause of the revolution? ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.02.21 18:17:00 - [218] Originally by: Merdaneth Ms. Constantine, I do wonder, what areas of 'individual sovereignity' have you voluntary given up in the cause of the revolution? Quit your false crusade, abandon the corrupt cause of imperialism. Free yourself from the chains of hierarchy and then come and ask me by the light of a burning nova. Then I'll tell you. True Knowledge
Jasmine Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.02.22 23:40:00 - [219] Originally by: Andreus LeHane I would feel much more inclined to support the cause of Star Fraction if they were to learn the value of being succinct. Its overrated ________________________
Evet Morrel Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.02.24 19:49:00 - [220] Originally by: Molien There is a major flaw in that theory. Capsuleers are not immortal. Really this is not much of an objection. When estimating the life span of a human do actuary tables ignore the impact of medicine, no of course not. Is it death if all ones memories, all that makes you, you, are transfered to another identical copy? I argue that it is not, but IÆll leave the meta-physics to the Amarr, my discipline is psychohistory. Originally by: Molien There is always a hierarchy. To believe that there isn't or that there can exist a reality without one, is a lie. This won't do at all. I do not argue that we are equal, indeed I believe we are incommensurable - beyond comparison, which of course means beyond hierarchy, for a common factor for comparison would need to be applied (Ariah Jeneth made an adjacent point but for the moment I can't find it). It is, as I have said, the Amarr, amongst other jingoists, who treat the subject as an object, as a pawn. Originally by: Evet Morrel The nationalists see the individual as limited by her subjectivity, or her individuality, one might say her spirit, and therefore they strive to make the subject an object. In the case of the Amarr this is a contradiction, a denial of the individual's resemblance to God. This contradicts their doctrine of 'Imago Dei', but I suggest that the realpolitik explanation for this contradiction is the myth or lie I spoke of above. Are you so intrenched that you canÆt see the system for what it is. It is I believe a settled fact that organic processes consist in change from the homogenous to the heterogeneous, in every sphere of existence from Manufacture to Commerce, from Science to Art, everything proceeds from the simple to the complex. This flourishing, fecund state of nature is a spiritual and scientific fact. And yet the Amarr would reverse this by slavery and political coercion you would enforce homogeneity by authority, you hypocrites. It is humbling, that existence is so unpredictable, that things are ultimately unprovable, that systems are undecidable indeed they are so often their own shortest description. To look into the past is to see simplicity which moves with entropic inevitability towards an unknowable future. It is apparent everywhere and yet not to the Amarr, at least not to those Amarr of political rank. It is a refutation of the Amarr cherished a priori assumptions of authority; that some races are subhuman; that certainty is possible, that the future is known. The Amarr are of course a fascinating cultural response, from an anthological perspective, to the traumatic effect of being hoodwinked by a couple of dilettante alien squatters. Who left the Amarr, as a parting gift, such anxiety, on the one hand, and grandiosity, on the other, as to be unable to face their future would out absolute certainty, a titanic musclebound certainty, indeed, even to the point of reversing this evident state of things, shame. Indeed it is unbearable shame that is the affect underling narcissism, and never before have a people been so narcissistically wounded as the Amarr, look at their gaudy, indeed gilt, cultural remonstration to the contrary in practically every sphere. One simply must see this is proof of a profound underlying inferiority complex or be mocked by children as a dullard.
Captain Blauvelt Gallente New Eden Redistribution Dhanab Syndicate	Posted - 2010.02.26 16:25:00 - [221] Edited by: Captain Blauvelt on 26/02/2010 16:33:09 Could you comment about the similarities and differences between your alliance and your lover's alliance, the Sani Sabik? Originally by: Jade Constantine The fraction believed in the power of self. Or rather it didnÆt believe in anything beyond the free association of sovereign individuals united by self-interest. Might did make right as the absence of ômightö led only to slavery at the hands of those who had it while you didnÆt. Nothing mattered to us but our desire to live free and build our power from the resources we found in space. And Originally by: Revan Neferis RIGHT IS MIGHT Our right lies in force. The word "right" is an abstract thought and proved by nothing. The word means no more than: Give me what I want in order that thereby I may have a proof that I am stronger than you. Where does right begin? Where does it end? In any Alliance in which there is a bad organization of authority, an impersonality of laws and of the rulers who have lost their personality amid the flood of rights ever multiplying out of liberalism, I find a new right - to attack by the right of the strong, and to scatter to the winds all existing forces of order and regulation, to reconstruct all institutions and to become the sovereign of those who have left to us the rights of their power by laying them down voluntarily in their liberalism. And Originally by: Revan Neferis Political freedom is an idea but not a fact. This idea one must know how to apply whenever it appears necessary with this bait of an idea to attract the masses of the people to one's party for the purpose of crushing another who is in authority. This task is rendered easier of the opponent has himself been infected with the idea of freedom, and, for the sake of an idea, is willing to yield some of his power. - in any case it can be accounted irretrievable lost: IT IS IN OUR POWER. Originally by: Revan Neferis Without an absolute despotism there can be no existence for civilization which is carried on not by the masses but by their guide, whosoever that person may be. The mob is savage, and displays its savagery at every opportunity. The moment the mob seizes freedom in its hands it quickly turns to anarchy, which in itself is the highest degree of savagery.
ChipMo Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.02.27 00:58:00 - [222] Anarchism and the Sani Sabik have a lot in common to be honest. The key aspect I feel followers of the Sani Sabik lack is a healthy dose of personal responsibility and a respect for others personal sovereignty. Most anarchists appreciate these two principles because it benefits them and the common good in the long term, where as for example a sovereign of the Sani Sabik will do whatever they please regardless of the consequences to their environment or those around them. I feel this is rather short sighted, however as far as I know there is nothing in the Sani Sabik ethos to say they cannot live this way so I personally see more potential for the future than the more authodox Amarrian faiths. Of course this is just my opinion, I am by no means a scholar on either anarchism or the Sani Sabik.
Revan Neferis Amarr The Archaeus of Blood	Posted - 2010.02.27 14:21:00 - [223] Originally by: ChipMo Anarchism and the Sani Sabik have a lot in common to be honest. Yes. Originally by: ChipMo The key aspect I feel followers of the Sani Sabik lack is a healthy dose of personal responsibility Wrong. Sani Sabik praises only Individual responsibility. Originally by: ChipMo and a respect for others personal sovereignty. Respect is earned not given. Earned by Power. Originally by: ChipMo sovereign of the Sani Sabik will do whatever they please regardless of the consequences to their environment or those around them. This is personal responsibility. We don't need a God neither some silly RoE or moral society codes to tell us how to live. Nature does that with perfection more than any invention by human mind. Originally by: ChipMo there is nothing in the Sani Sabik ethos to say they cannot live this way Our Faith say we must live this way. Originally by: ChipMo Of course this is just my opinion, I am by no means a scholar on either anarchism or the Sani Sabik. No one can profess knowledge of the Faith unless it's an initiated and walked its path including the rituals described at our holy Apocrypha. Sani Sabik is not words it's deeds and life experiences. Revan Neferis Thrice-Illustrious Sovereign Sani Sabik ôBe still when you have nothing to say; when genuine passion moves you, say what you've got to say, and say it hot.ö
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.20 15:37:00 - [224] Originally by: Revan Neferis No one can profess knowledge of the Faith unless it's an initiated and walked its path including the rituals described at our holy Apocrypha. Sani Sabik is not words it's deeds and life experiences. Life experience, passion, rapture, the depths of sorrow and the heights and delicious experience of all the universe can provide us. We have in our power the means to transcend all limitations and social constraints, we step beyond borders and territorialism, we laugh at nations and the fears that kept the ancients trembling behind the ring-fences in the deep of the night. We have carved our magick into wolf-guns we carry as our pride and birthright and we've slain the monsters and carved their bones into trophies and jewelry for our beloved kinsmen of the vast tapestry of stars. Life is a ritual, we learn its workings with each passing breath the sweeter for oppression that denied it times before. The True Knowledge is love for all things that bring the individual pleasure and fulfilment in the infinite journey of eternity. winks But I speak to the initiated in these matters already. True Knowledge
Revan Neferis Amarr The Archaeus of Blood The Final Stand.	Posted - 2010.04.20 17:33:00 - [225] Originally by: Jade Constantine The True Knowledge is love for all things that bring the individual pleasure and fulfilment in the infinite journey of eternity. I see that whispering the holy apocrypha to you while in the heights of rapture and passion has done wonders. That's the true knowledge of all there is. Revan Neferis Thrice-Illustrious Sovereign Sani Sabik ôThe Abyss of Hallucinations has Law and Reason; but in Truth there is no bond between the Toys of the Gods.ö
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2010.04.20 17:42:00 - [226] Originally by: Revan Neferis Originally by: ChipMo Anarchism and the Sani Sabik have a lot in common to be honest. Yes. I would have thought that the belief that the perfect world has a government to be the very antithesis of anarchy, but maybe that's just me. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Revan Neferis Amarr The Archaeus of Blood The Final Stand.	Posted - 2010.04.20 17:53:00 - [227] Originally by: Rodj Blake That's just me. Agreed. Specially when the subject was been debated so many times along the years, and only those of low intellectual capacity still have doubts. As an act of mercy, I direct you to the simple concept of Right makes Might written at the Protocols and the Anarchist motto. Revan Neferis Thrice-Illustrious Sovereign Sani Sabik ôThe Abyss of Hallucinations has Law and Reason; but in Truth there is no bond between the Toys of the Gods.ö
ChipMo Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.20 17:55:00 - [228] Originally by: Rodj Blake I would have thought that the belief that the perfect world has a government to be the very antithesis of anarchy, but maybe that's just me. I was making an observation of the reality in New Eden. I couldn't care less about someones imaginary perfect world.
Revan Neferis Amarr The Archaeus of Blood The Final Stand.	Posted - 2010.04.20 18:03:00 - [229] Edited by: Revan Neferis on 20/04/2010 18:04:22 Originally by: ChipMo I was making an observation of the reality in New Eden. I couldn't care less about someones imaginary perfect world. Careful with words Caldari. The imaginary World of tomorrow will be the reality being shapped today, nothing else. A few years back when I began the wars in Providence the mere thought of a Providence without CVA was called " delirious imagination" Don't play with the future so loosely, it may be more real than you are able to grasp. Revan Neferis Thrice-Illustrious Sovereign Sani Sabik ôThe Abyss of Hallucinations has Law and Reason; but in Truth there is no bond between the Toys of the Gods.ö
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.21 13:59:00 - [230] Originally by: Revan Neferis Originally by: Jade Constantine The True Knowledge is love for all things that bring the individual pleasure and fulfilment in the infinite journey of eternity. I see that whispering the holy apocrypha to you while in the heights of rapture and passion has done wonders. That's the true knowledge of all there is. It is something of a revelation to me to realize there may be a dark language that isn't inimicable to the interests of liberation and human freedom after all. But everything we are can be expressed in the desire for experience and passion and pleasure. It is only when we submit to the hierarchies and administrators of a false god that we lose the love for ourselves that we need to survive for eternity. I see this daily in the fallen nature of the Amarrian Nationalists. They have nothing left to love because everything they cherished has fallen to dust. Only bitterness, hatred,jealousy and recriminations own their hearts now. It is everyone's "fault" but their own. This because they entrusted faith in their success to an imaginary god rather than their own efforts, and now with the failure it cannot be the fault of an imaginary thing, it wasn't their failing (of course not) so it must be the work of an evil force undermining their efforts. Faith turns to demonization with no self-analysis. I fear the fall of Providence will send the Amarrian nationalists deeper into delusion rather than wake them from their slumber. Ah well, The universe turns and free-spirits have lips to cherish and caress to deliver in glorious rapture many lightyears from the dying ambitions of puling nationalists. True Knowledge
Revan Neferis Amarr The Archaeus of Blood The Final Stand.	Posted - 2010.04.22 13:24:00 - [231] Originally by: Jade Constantine It is something of a revelation to me to realize there may be a dark language that isn't inimicable to the interests of liberation and human freedom after all. Darkness lets the stars shine bright my dear and although our concepts of freedom may differ, it's in darkness and the words, passions, gestures, daring, pains and sensuality therein where the mind and heart is truly free. Any other concept of freedom is illusionary. Call it Visionary Darkness my dear. It's what you feel. Revan Neferis Thrice-Illustrious Sovereign Sani Sabik ôThe Abyss of Hallucinations has Law and Reason; but in Truth there is no bond between the Toys of the Gods.ö
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.04.23 15:42:00 - [232] Originally by: Revan Neferis Originally by: Jade Constantine It is something of a revelation to me to realize there may be a dark language that isn't inimicable to the interests of liberation and human freedom after all. Darkness lets the stars shine bright my dear and although our concepts of freedom may differ, it's in darkness and the words, passions, gestures, daring, pains and sensuality therein where the mind and heart is truly free. Any other concept of freedom is illusionary. Call it Visionary Darkness my dear. It's what you feel. Visionary darkness. I like the name. But its true that only through striving and wild experience can we know the truth of freedom. Passion and emotional knowledge can be worth so much more than pure intellectual excercise in the dry chambers of debate. True Knowledge
Revan Neferis Amarr The Archaeus of Blood The Final Stand.	Posted - 2010.04.25 03:42:00 - [233] Originally by: Jade Constantine Visionary darkness. I like the name. But its true that only through striving and wild experience can we know the truth of freedom. Passion and emotional knowledge can be worth so much more than pure intellectual excercise in the dry chambers of debate. We "walk the walk" beautiful, embracing visionary darkness to the very core of being. The true knowledge of the star fraction and the true knowledge of my faith is exactly that. It's what makes us what we are. In many mysterious and delightful ways... Revan Neferis Thrice-Illustrious Sovereign Sani Sabik ôThe Abyss of Hallucinations has Law and Reason; but in Truth there is no bond between the Toys of the Gods.ö
Lyris Nairn Caldari Hashimoto Corporation	Posted - 2010.04.25 15:32:00 - [234] Originally by: Havohej Originally by: Jade Constantine ...might does make right and power makes freedom. Hear, hear. So then the good folks over in the IT Alliance are the true enlightened ones who know best how to run the Universe?
Revan Neferis Amarr The Archaeus of Blood The Final Stand.	Posted - 2010.04.28 15:23:00 - [235] Originally by: Lyris Nairn So then the good folks over in the IT Alliance are the true enlightened ones who know best how to run the Universe? How curious to find you at yet another IGS Jade's thread completely unrelated with Caldari Nationalism. mmm makes one think about core split personalities and clone jacks as usual. That might explain a few things. About your question which is quite silly and obviously already answered by anyone having the brains to actually read what was written ( rare here I know) , all that is needed to say is that If they can, and you can't, it's so very obviously their right and not yours. Might makes Right is such a simple concept. Does clone jacks comes with less enhanced brain connections than its original or do you have to share them, therefore the results? Revan Neferis Thrice-Illustrious Sovereign Sani Sabik ôThe Abyss of Hallucinations has Law and Reason; but in Truth there is no bond between the Toys of the Gods.ö

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