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Private Pineapple
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
58
|
Posted - 2012.06.10 18:08:00 -
[1] - Quote
First off, I want to say two things:
1) I have no idea if these changes were in before Inferno, as I didn't play much after I last quit in 2010. I also knew nothing about FW when I quit in 2010.
2) I apologize if there is already a thread up on this topic.
As it stands, it is too easy to make ISK via Minmatar FW. I made 600 mil with little to no effort in the last two days (Friday/Saturday) and if I care enough I'll make another 100 or 200 mil today. I am a 8-day old character, I should not be able to make that kind of ISK in so little time with the exception of intelligently playing the market. I know nothing about playing the market so I have to "work" for my ISK, but with FW I barely have to work at all for a lot of ISK.
Major complexes give 25000 LP. Medium complexes give 15000 LP. Minor complexes give 10000 LP.
For my horrible navigation skills, I can't speedtank a minor complex in a Vigil, nor can I really "do them" because my speedtanking Vigil fit with 200mm ACs can't even track them fast enough as I orbit them. This is still nice because I prefer to do Medium/Major complexes. Ultimately, I prefer doing major complexes as I can pretty much AFK in them as the orbital is so wide that they never get a lucky hit on me. In mediums I can't AFK too much because I'll get a hit here and there, so I have to pulse my SSB once in a while.
I made 188k LP in the last 2 days doing mostly majors, but some medium and minors (with partners) here and there. I didn't bother doing any plexes for the majority of yesterday as I made like 100k LP and I got bored of making more LP. On Friday night I made 80-90k LP. With what I'm trading in (which is slowly crashing in the market compared to the other Minmatar faction stuff that's crashing really fast) I get 3000 ISK per LP.
188k LP took me from 85 mil to 691 mil ISK.
There are a number of reasons how I am able to get this much LP and how I have a high ISK per LP ratio:
1) I can speedtank their complexes.
2) Amarr cannot speedtank Minmatar complexes.
Combine these reasons together and you will understand why Amarr is losing the Amarr vs Minmatar war heavily as Minmatar complexes cannot be speedtanked due to TPing and webbing NPCS. This means Amarr has very little progress in T1 while Minmatar is always T3 but fluctuates up to T4 daily.
The Gallente vs Caldari war do not have this problem because both sides can speedtank both factions. This means both Caldari and Gallente fluctate between T1 and T2.
The T3/T4 fluctuation is a huge advantage to my success. At T3, we pay normal price as other corporations for anything in the LP store. At T4, we pay 50% of the price! (just a note: T1 means you pay 4x the price, T2 you pay 2x, so as the tiers go you divide by two, this means T5 will be absolute insanity as it'd be 25% of normal price). This is for both ISK, so something that costs 10000 LP and 10 million ISK to buy is 5000 LP and 5 million ISK to buy at T4.
So let's take a step back and see what this means. With T4, we get more from the LP store for cheaper. Factor in the fact that speedtanking Amarr plexes is effortless, resulting in a massive pseudo-free LP income, we have brand-new characters with crappy navigation skills making 200-300 mil per day with no effort and a couple of Vigil losses to retardation.
However, this can be fixed.
There are two solutions. One is easy, but detrimental to the whole point of FW. The other is good and solves the basic problem behind FW at the moment.
1) Let Amarr speedtank Minmatar complexes so everyone is "equal" in our ability to speedtank. But this is a bad suggestion because the ability to speedtank each others' complexes is a bad design implementation. Let's move on to the better suggestion.
2) Have all NPCs that spawn in all 4 faction complexes be able to web you. This will solve the problem behind speedtanking and force intelligent fleet composition and gameplay to actually conquer complexes. |

Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae
89
|
Posted - 2012.06.10 18:13:00 -
[2] - Quote
Yup and also have you seen the price of Ammar Insignia they have nosed dived. Making Mim faction half the price of Amarr. |

MotherMoon
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
831
|
Posted - 2012.06.10 18:16:00 -
[3] - Quote
Complexs in general need a change. It has to be an active fight. Obviously this means the FW NPCs should be using the New AI code for wormholes and incursions where each NPC ship is as strong as a real player ship.
For some Reason, a blue post stated this would make the game too much about NPCs and said "we will never put NPCs as strong as players into eve online ever, wait a few months and we will do something to fix FW sites" -2010
This was before said NPC were brought into the game for incursions. Could you solo an incursion site? no? then CCP should fix FW with that simple fix. will they? It's been 3 years I am losing hope. Why dust 514 is on Console and not PCBattle field 3 sales Xbox 360: 2.2 million PlayStation 3: 1.5 million PC: 500,000http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg |

Private Pineapple
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
59
|
Posted - 2012.06.10 18:41:00 -
[4] - Quote
So after linking that thread into Militia chat I've gotten a ton of flak. I would assume they were mad that I was threatening their ability to speedtank their complexes and make tons of LP per day, but no. I seem to have completely forgotten that we've been extremely organized since the FW announcements at fanfest to secure systems before the new changes went in. I've heard of this but I forgot to factor that into my post.
However I still need to reiterate:
The fact that we can speedtank Amarr complexes and they can't speedtank our complexes means two things:
1) We have an easier time getting LP.
2) Amarr has a harder time conquering our systems.
Let me explain. The fact that we have an easier time getting LP means we can simply upgrade our systems and acquire more LP. This means it is easy for us to rise up in the tiers. However Gallente and Caldari can do this as well but why are they T1/T2? Easy, the fact that Amarr has a harder time doing our complexes means less MInmatar complexes are done. This also means that we lose less of our system upgrades. This causes our LP investments into upgrading our systems become a longer-lasting investment. This is a huge factor in why we are T4 and have an easier time "being up there" than Gallente/Caldari.
In fact, if everyone were to not be selfish like me, we would be T5 in a heartbeat and Amarr wouldn't be able to do anything because we'd continue to do their complexes and have stockpiles of LP to counter any complexes Amarr might do.
Again, I apologize for anyone I may have offended. I realize you all have put in the effort to defensive plex and hold systems vs other wartarget fleets (way more than I have). However, I still believe we do have an easier time getting to and maintaining a higher tier level.
There has been a heated discussion about FW in the militia channel but it would be awesome if we could bring that discussion here. |

MotherMoon
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
832
|
Posted - 2012.06.10 18:45:00 -
[5] - Quote
I'll say it again. Minor FW sites should have 3 frigates in them. it should be as hard as fighting 3 player frigates. so you should have to bring 3 people with you to take it out. The fact that FW is set up as a single player WvW is just plain fail. And I did FW for 3 years. it was stupid it was never about playing in groups, it's about going around in groups of 1-2, having one person go in and get arrgo, then the next person goes in and sits on the beacon.
IT"S NOT FUN ITS STUPID Why dust 514 is on Console and not PCBattle field 3 sales Xbox 360: 2.2 million PlayStation 3: 1.5 million PC: 500,000http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg |

Private Pineapple
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
59
|
Posted - 2012.06.10 19:06:00 -
[6] - Quote
Found this gem: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=119683&find=unread
This is way better than what I suggested in my original post. His proposal solves the source of many problems with FW. Support Damen Apol's proposal! -áSolve all problems with FW with a simple solution!
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=119683&find=unread |

DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
229
|
Posted - 2012.06.10 19:09:00 -
[7] - Quote
This should prove interesting for the economy since LP is an ISK sink. With Incursion sites intro the Concord LP in 3-4 months bottomed out to ~800 ISK per LP. Main difference though with Incursions versus FW is that Incursioners didn't have any way to get Tags( besides the market whose prices EXPLODED) which hurt thier standings and would prevent them from running Incursions in HI SEC. As a consequence most hardcore Incursion runners after awhile just let thier LP stockpile ( I think I have around 4 million Concord LP )
CCP Soundwave "Incursions are not a big issue in terms of isk globally" |

Tobiaz
Spacerats
595
|
Posted - 2012.06.10 19:36:00 -
[8] - Quote
Private Pineapple wrote:
2) Have all NPCs that spawn in all 4 faction complexes be able to web you. This will solve the problem behind speedtanking and force intelligent fleet composition and gameplay to actually conquer complexes.
Add a few stasis towers. SOLVED
Operation WRITE DOWN ALL THE THINGS!!!-á Check out the list at http://bit.ly/wdatt Collecting and compiling all fixes and ideas for EVE. Looking for more editors! |

Lipbite
Express Hauler
69
|
Posted - 2012.06.10 19:50:00 -
[9] - Quote
And they said incursions were easy ISK. FW, here I come!
P.S. Well, actually I'm not. World of Tanks cover 100% of my "techie PvP" interests without complicated economic and socialization mumbo-jumbo. |

Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
142
|
Posted - 2012.06.10 21:00:00 -
[10] - Quote
Oversupply will happen with everything coming out of the Minnie LP store soon enough.
At which point most LP farmers will sod off to try to make ISK elsewhere and the pendulum will swing back the other way when some big alliance decides they need some cheap navy geddons/apocs etc and join the Amarr side.
enjoy your cash cow while it lasts because it wont last forever.
|

Private Pineapple
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
60
|
Posted - 2012.06.10 21:01:00 -
[11] - Quote
I know I made a good thread when people are angry with my suggestions to improve FW mechanics.
Ninlarra teamkiller \o/ http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=13627635 Support Damen Apol's proposal! -áSolve all problems with FW with a simple solution!
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=119683&find=unread |

Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
297
|
Posted - 2012.06.10 22:11:00 -
[12] - Quote
The sad thing is that speed tanking FW dungeons has been an issue since FW was first tested on Sisi and CCP just does not get it. If you look at the caldari/gallente front, neither of them can get into even tier 2 for more than a day because there is so much speed tanked plexing alts that no one can defend upgraded systems.
Webifier towers and webs on rats won't work because that will screw the defender so much he'll never fight and fw plex should be about ways to get pvp not pve and run. The obvious answer is to add the requirement that all rats must be killed in addition to being close to the button. This also fixes the exploit in which for example a caldari with high gallente standings does not get shot at by the enemy rats in an offensive plex. |

Private Pineapple
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
60
|
Posted - 2012.06.10 22:21:00 -
[13] - Quote
Vaal Erit wrote:The sad thing is that speed tanking FW dungeons has been an issue since FW was first tested on Sisi and CCP just does not get it. If you look at the caldari/gallente front, neither of them can get into even tier 2 for more than a day because there is so much speed tanked plexing alts that no one can defend upgraded systems.
Webifier towers and webs on rats won't work because that will screw the defender so much he'll never fight and fw plex should be about ways to get pvp not pve and run. The obvious answer is to add the requirement that all rats must be killed in addition to being close to the button. This also fixes the exploit in which for example a caldari with high gallente standings does not get shot at by the enemy rats in an offensive plex.
Quality post. I like your suggestion. Support Damen Apol's proposal! -áSolve all problems with FW with a simple solution!
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=119683&find=unread |

IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69
Angry Mustellid Iron Oxide.
190
|
Posted - 2012.06.10 22:23:00 -
[14] - Quote
Yes this is a consequence of the game mechanics and no planning or effort went into this from the alliances of minmatar milita. |

Private Pineapple
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
62
|
Posted - 2012.06.10 22:31:00 -
[15] - Quote
IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69 wrote:Yes this is a consequence of the game mechanics and no planning or effort went into this from the alliances of minmatar milita.
That said I'd like to see a nerf to the speed tanking plexing as I'm not sure that is intended, as outlined in the OP. Don't pretend its the sole reason for the current state of the warzone though.
Your corp. CEO disagrees with you. Your CEO is actually the reason why I wrote that "apology". I can provide chatlogs if you would like, contact me in game for them as I am not allowed to post chatlogs on the forum. Support Damen Apol's proposal! -áSolve all problems with FW with a simple solution!
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=119683&find=unread |

Zarnak Wulf
Amarrian Retribution Amarr 7th Fleet
365
|
Posted - 2012.06.11 02:05:00 -
[16] - Quote
Two days is not a great sample period to be making blanket conclusions on. Amarr own few systems. If you were to attempt to plex on a regular basis you would discover:
WT coming into your plex to get you. Friendlies popping in at the last minute to share your LP with you.
Also - this Dev Sponsored Discussion
Ewar has been removed from plexes. |

Private Pineapple
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
64
|
Posted - 2012.06.11 02:11:00 -
[17] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:Two days is not a great sample period to be making blanket conclusions on. Amarr own few systems. If you were to attempt to plex on a regular basis you would discover: WT coming into your plex to get you. Friendlies popping in at the last minute to share your LP with you. Also - this Dev Sponsored DiscussionEwar has been removed from plexes.
WTs coming into the plex to get you doesn't do anything. Half of my complexes involve me spamming D-scan and warping to a safe as soon as I see a WT enter and I'll just AFK and wait until they leave the system and then I come back to it and complete the complex. I admit they could just defensive-plex it, but not everyone does that. Only one person has done that to me and I still finished that major plex anyway (38 minutes on the timer, still worth it)
The friendlies usually leave when I respectfully ask them to leave. If they don't, I deal with it and say "eh, it's okay if we share it!". Around 1 in 5 plexes involve me sharing it with a friendly, and even then it's not that big of a loss anyway.
Ewar will (meaning the change has not been done yet) be removed from plexes, which satisfies this suggestion:
Quote:1) Let Amarr speedtank Minmatar complexes so everyone is "equal" in our ability to speedtank. But this is a bad suggestion because the ability to speedtank each others' complexes is a bad design implementation. Let's move on to the better suggestion.
But...
Quote:One is easy, but detrimental to the whole point of FW. The other is good and solves the basic problem behind FW at the moment.
Quote:2) Have all NPCs that spawn in all 4 faction complexes be able to web you. This will solve the problem behind speedtanking and force intelligent fleet composition and gameplay to actually conquer complexes.
...would at least enhance teamwork and not detract from it. Support Damen Apol's proposal! -áSolve all problems with FW with a simple solution!
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=119683&find=unread |

Ginseng Jita
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
919
|
Posted - 2012.06.11 03:22:00 -
[18] - Quote
Dotlan shows how poorly the Amarr faction is doing and right now the Amarr are getting their arses handed to them. |

Zarnak Wulf
Amarrian Retribution Amarr 7th Fleet
365
|
Posted - 2012.06.11 03:43:00 -
[19] - Quote
Private Pineapple wrote: WTs coming into the plex to get you doesn't do anything. Half of my complexes involve me spamming D-scan and warping to a safe as soon as I see a WT enter and I'll just AFK and wait until they leave the system and then I come back to it and complete the complex. I admit they could just defensive-plex it, but not everyone does that. Only one person has done that to me and I still finished that major plex anyway (38 minutes on the timer, still worth it)
The friendlies usually leave when I respectfully ask them to leave. If they don't, I deal with it and say "eh, it's okay if we share it!". Around 1 in 5 plexes involve me sharing it with a friendly, and even then it's not that big of a loss anyway.
All of that takes time. I don't know how long you played over two days to get that LP. I have been able to hop on for about an hour and a half the past couple of days. In that time I plexed four majors in the backend upgraded Minmatar systems. 160k LP in 90 minutes. Three days in a row. And note the upgraded part. Minmatar pilots put LP into those systems to get a better LP store. I essentially took their LP and put it into my pocket. I made them put more LP into those systems to get their tier 4 store back. And I've seen only a couple of WT during that time. Judging from the number of blinking systems in the Minmatar rear I'm not the only one with that idea.
I really like the new system. It involves alot more strategy. Hit the rear systems. Make the enemy do security sweeps. Peel pilots off of the front or eat a worse store. Make them spend LP on upgrades rather then SFI. You don't get a discount on upgrades. And save up your LP for a time that your own store is better. |

Lady Aja
59
|
Posted - 2012.06.11 03:56:00 -
[20] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:Two days is not a great sample period to be making blanket conclusions on. Amarr own few systems. If you were to attempt to plex on a regular basis you would discover:
WT coming into your plex to get you. Friendlies popping in at the last minute to share your LP with you.
yep. when i do jump online my self i make it hell for em, for upto an hour.
I even got told by an amarr fw pilot to stop killing his alt. who happened to be a matar pilot. i told him to take it up with my ceo lol. where is my ability to link a sig properly CCP you munters!! |

Lord Meriak
Amarrian Retribution Amarr 7th Fleet
11
|
Posted - 2012.06.11 06:03:00 -
[21] - Quote
Amarr bring in the neuting power as per race bonus. no cap no burner or mwd. 
|

MotherMoon
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
839
|
Posted - 2012.06.11 06:30:00 -
[22] - Quote
it has nothing to do with PvE, they are losing the PvE war. its dumb.
running factional warfare sites is as difficult as running a level 4 mission. but easier for minmatar, to a stupid degree.
They need to be as hard a wormhole sites to make them worth the reward and worth running in gangs. Why dust 514 is on Console and not PCBattle field 3 sales Xbox 360: 2.2 million PlayStation 3: 1.5 million PC: 500,000http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg |

Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
752
|
Posted - 2012.06.11 06:31:00 -
[23] - Quote
Private Pineapple wrote:
2) Amarr has a harder time conquering our systems.
So you're saying you haven't noticed the 4 systems that the Amarr retook last week?
|

Herr Hammer Draken
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
4
|
Posted - 2012.06.11 06:35:00 -
[24] - Quote
The side effect of this thread is that now the cat is out of the bag tons of people will be pouring into the mimnitar FW war to make quick riches before this gets axed. The situation will get far worse before it gets better.
Of course their is another group that is looking for action in low sec. They have been pushing to have level 4 missions moved to low sec. Well they need look no further. It looks like this will be a target rich environment. Lots of low skilled pilots in low sec.
|

MotherMoon
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
839
|
Posted - 2012.06.11 06:41:00 -
[25] - Quote
time to buy.... datacores... >.> <.<
omg this is awesome lol.we are all going to make so much money! *if you don't know what I'm talking about check the new datacore LP bonus and price thing. muhahahaha, minmatar datacores are 16 times cheaper than amarr datacore right now! : O Why dust 514 is on Console and not PCBattle field 3 sales Xbox 360: 2.2 million PlayStation 3: 1.5 million PC: 500,000http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg |

Lexmana
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
540
|
Posted - 2012.06.11 07:20:00 -
[26] - Quote
MotherMoon wrote:They need to be as hard a wormhole sites to make them worth the reward and worth running in gangs. This is not the solution. The hard part of FW plexes should be the defending militia. Buffing NPCs will only promote PVE fleets. The problem right now is that some factions can AFK cap plexes in rifters without even fitting guns.
The simple solution is that all NPCs has to be killed to capture the plex. |

ModeratedToSilence
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
108
|
Posted - 2012.06.11 07:31:00 -
[27] - Quote
I for one am looking forward to buying fleet issue stabbers for 25mil because there is a rapid influx in Minmatar FW pilots. |

MotherMoon
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
840
|
Posted - 2012.06.11 09:08:00 -
[28] - Quote
Lexmana wrote:MotherMoon wrote:They need to be as hard a wormhole sites to make them worth the reward and worth running in gangs. This is not the solution. The hard part of FW plexes should be the defending militia. Buffing NPCs will only promote PVE fits/fleets. The problem right now is that some factions can AFK cap major plexes in rifters without even fitting guns. The simple solution is that all NPCs has to be killed to capture the plex.
I disagree. The NPCs need to be upgraded again then, just for Factional warfare. it should be just as hard as fighting player ships, should require PvP fits to kill. How can you be ok with sites being soloable? It's like grinding level 4 missions, it's entirely a solo activity. No one to fight becuase the other militia is running your sites solo as well. hard to catch everyone when there are 200 targets all soloing thier own systems.
Isn't this suppose to be war? not solo fest 5000?If the reward "is the PvP" then I'd just go join a war.. oh look I FOUND IT. it's Red verus Blue. The reward for FW is NOT PvP. that would be stupid. Guildwars 2 pulled it off, why can't eve?
In fact all NPC missions should be brought up to player strenght. CCP has talked about revamping the mission system for a long time. I think it's about time we got used to NPC ships not being push overs in general. Level 4 missions should be a challenge. Whats the point of 10 battleships in place of a single battleship? it's scareen cluter, it's silly that you can solo so many ships.
It's beyound silly running missions in Eve online. Not that wormhole space or incursions have it right either. But I want missions where I have to fight 2 ships, and it's a hard tough battle that promotes actually learning to fly when combat lasts longer than lock, fire twice, repeat. Why dust 514 is on Console and not PCBattle field 3 sales Xbox 360: 2.2 million PlayStation 3: 1.5 million PC: 500,000http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg |

Lexmana
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
540
|
Posted - 2012.06.11 09:52:00 -
[29] - Quote
MotherMoon wrote:Lexmana wrote:MotherMoon wrote:They need to be as hard a wormhole sites to make them worth the reward and worth running in gangs. This is not the solution. The hard part of FW plexes should be the defending militia. Buffing NPCs will only promote PVE fits/fleets. The problem right now is that some factions can AFK cap major plexes in rifters without even fitting guns. The simple solution is that all NPCs has to be killed to capture the plex. I disagree. The NPCs need to be upgraded again then, just for Factional warfare. it should be just as hard as fighting player ships, should require PvP fits to kill. How can you be ok with sites being soloable? . The main problem is not doing them solo. I am fine with that. But they should require you to kill the NPCs making it impossible to solo them AFK in a ship without guns and inefficient to solo medium/major in frigates just to farm LP. That will promote group work.
Today there is a low threshold to enter these sites and that is a good thing. There are lots of fights (i.e. PVP) of various sizes going on inside of these plexes. I think that part is working mostly as intended.
Tougher NPCs will mean: 1. higher threshold to enter these sites for plexing 2. higher threshold to enter these sites to attack those who are plexing 3. a disadvantage for those having aggro inside the plex making them more likely to warp off if attacked 4. more PVE fits/fleets
All these factors will reduce PvP.
The general idea of FW plexing I think is fine. It is basically a capture the flag game with a beacon broadcasting your position to the enemy to come and get you before the timer runs out. Just make it impossible to farm them for LP efficiently solo in a frigate and they will be fine. |

MotherMoon
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
841
|
Posted - 2012.06.11 11:24:00 -
[30] - Quote
how would, pvp fit NPC ships promote PvE fits? what? Why dust 514 is on Console and not PCBattle field 3 sales Xbox 360: 2.2 million PlayStation 3: 1.5 million PC: 500,000http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg |
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