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Dear CCP; CSM needs to disband and reformat.

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Hun Jakuza 24th Imperial Guard	Posted - 2009.10.20 13:13:00 - [61] Originally by: Captain Thunk Originally by: Dirty Wizard The only motivation behind calling out an alt is to tailor personal attacks against them. I deprive you of this ammunition. Your character Dirty Wizard has a long posting history in Assembly Hall, are you seriously saying you made a specific alt to post here while protecting your mains identity? Afraid of 'political assassinations'? The problem isn't with the CSM, it's with you taking ingame internet spaceship politics way too seriously. Whether you like it or not, being flown out to Iceland every now and then is a perk of being elected to what is a time consuming and volountary position. There's no actual need for CCP to do this, it's offered as an incentive to stand. Personally, I suspect your motives and your behaviour. It seems too much of a coincidence you've singled out Goons and PL for reform while trying to hide who you actually are behind an alt created specifically for this very purpose. The only motivation behind using an alt is to mask your own alliance based political affiliations. Bring more man just cry on ventrillo. :D PL turning on so ridiculous.
Dirty Wizard	Posted - 2009.10.20 17:10:00 - [62] Originally by: Issler Dainze I can see where it would be easy (particularly after some of the CSM 3 actions) to become cynical about the CSM process. That said I think the solution lies in greater player participation. More and better candidates. Holding CCP and the CSM accountable for their actions (or inaction). Getting the word out in game to all the players that aren't in big alliances or associated with the 0.0 end game that they need to find a candidate to support. I'm all for this, but I see some problems right off the bat. The first is the method of accountability (or rather the lack thereof). Once a CSM gets their foot in the door, that's that. There is no mechanic for dealing with unruly and misbehaving CSMs. Other than breaking hard and fast NDA rules, there is no trigger that throws out these bad apples. No vote to dismiss, no impeach process, no behavioral review panel, nothing. If anything, this thread IS the closest thing we've got to such a mechanism. Kinda sad if one really takes it all in But it illustrates the point. We need such a tool so these incidents are prevented or dealt with in the future. The second problem is that the CSM is mostly a forum thing. Issues are here, discussion is here, voting is here. However we don't see any of this ingame. We're almost talking about two separate universes. The EvE forums and the EvE game. Most players ingame are only vaguely aware of the forums existence let alone what a CSM is. The forums seem to be looked upon as an outlet for trolls and hatemongers to spew their vitriol. It's hard to dispute that sometimes If the CSM is to garner any sort of greater player awareness, tools and mechanisms will have to be introduced into the game. Spreading the CSMs existence by word of mouth simply isn't enough. __________________________________ Want to help fix the CSM process? Show your support here.
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre REIGN Alliance	Posted - 2009.10.20 17:31:00 - [63] Edited by: Drake Draconis on 20/10/2009 17:33:37 Top that off with the fact that there pathetic excuse of "well run for CSM then if you don't like it" is no longer valid. Based on the fact that only there stupid excuse of a posse would practicually garuentee the said idiot getting reelected. As I've said... I might be able to make it past the front door... but then I'd be rendered useless every time I shot down an idiot CSM... because I'd be out gunned and out numbered. I get that we don't know everything that's going on. I get that there is more to the CSM than we know. But that will not excuse the fact that the flagrant behavior on these forums in total lack of respect and trolling by CSM itself... with there posse gangs making these boards turn into the COAD or worse yet the C&P would effectively make it a total waste of time to bother running for CSM. As I would only be a drop in the perverse pond of foolishness... even with ripples... wouldn't do much to change the situation. Only CCP would be able to slap them around... Even with people who don' entirely like me have already indicated to me they would vote for me... I haven't figure out whether they are joking... or if there serious. And as I've indicated before... I'm not convinced it would amount to a hill of beans when you got that ####### <points at Mazz> going on and embarrassing the entire goal and image of CSM itself. The whole purpose of the CSM is no longer valid... all I see the CSM doing is ignoring the bulk of us... sitting there twiddling there thumbs and keeping quite... ex members (reputable or not) are doing more work than the current term.. and even they are apparently embarrassed. Maybe I should start dragging people in here... but then they would have no bloody idea what was going on because only less than 10% even give a damn. And in the end they would conclude that participating is nothing short a waste of time short of discussing ideas. Maybe its time I move to features and Ideas because I'm growing tired of the foul stench that floods these boards.... and I can assure you... it's not coming from (dare I say) my party of participation... There is literally no more point to assembly hall itself or jita park if the CSM is in its current form is free to do as they please. Why bother discussing and pushing issues if they are likely to ignore you and do there own thing? That alone should make everyone with half a brain rather mad. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com =========================
Fille Balle Ballbreakers R us	Posted - 2009.10.20 21:09:00 - [64] Originally by: Drake Draconis You serious? I'd figure you've grown tired of me. :) Far from it. I think I'm getting used to you, thus I now understand better how you think. You've grown on me. Anyho, due to recent events, I'm considering wether this might not be such a bad idea after all.
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre REIGN Alliance	Posted - 2009.10.20 21:16:00 - [65] Originally by: Fille Balle Originally by: Drake Draconis You serious? I'd figure you've grown tired of me. :) Far from it. I think I'm getting used to you, thus I now understand better how you think. You've grown on me. Anyho, due to recent events, I'm considering wether this might not be such a bad idea after all. o7 We'll need to chat in game some time... :) ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com =========================
CommanderData211	Posted - 2009.10.20 21:20:00 - [66] I can't support this thread because you are growing on me too Drake. I may not agree with some of the specifics you lay down in terms of fixes and tweaks, and at times I feel like you shoot down ideas that you feel frivolous but might be fun, but I know that you love this game. I have a feeling that you would do everything in your power to improve the game to the best of your ability. That being said, you don't choose the fights you can win, you fight the fights that need fighting.
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre REIGN Alliance	Posted - 2009.10.20 21:49:00 - [67] Originally by: CommanderData211 I can't support this thread because you are growing on me too Drake. I may not agree with some of the specifics you lay down in terms of fixes and tweaks, and at times I feel like you shoot down ideas that you feel frivolous but might be fun, but I know that you love this game. I have a feeling that you would do everything in your power to improve the game to the best of your ability. That being said, you don't choose the fights you can win, you fight the fights that need fighting. It is one thing to disagree with someone with a valid reason. It's an another to do so like a child and troll/insult/mock/ignore/stupidly go forth like a moron. Yes I'm agressive that way... but I tend to respect peoples position. For example... I have nothing personal agianst Mazz or Lark... I do take insult however with the spitting they have done on the very idea of what CSM is.. and when they come walking in here with the holier than thou atitude with a track record that shows nothing but trash for what they have to prove for it... that's an entirely different issue. Lark violated a real life contractual agreement called a non-disclosure agreement... usually (at least in my knowledge) that results in getting sued/fined/charged criminally for causing damage to a working business... he's damn lucky what CCP did was all they did... they where well within there right to let him have it with everything they got. Take the time to read the legalese and you'd be surprised... NDA's are no laughing matter... and he took it lightly obviously. Mazz... "Miss I got's boobs" and "tons of alt's" with the entirety of the pandemic legion (whom I referr to as the Neo-goonswarm now) goes forth in the guise of working for the better of EVE... and then pushes a very suspicous "we need longer terms" proposal and at 3 to ???-133/200 (obviously a hell of a lot more than 3) it gets passed by CSM without hesitation or consideration of public opinion and then pushed on to CCP whom I hope will likely shoot it down for the obvious lack of common sense.... but even then we don't know as CCP tends to keep to itself! The point is not a matter of what the CSM does or how. It's who they represent. they excuse there actions for "then run for office" when in fact they know that very little to no participation in the game population will result in changing the status quo. So whose the fool now? That would be us... the overall public at the mercy of a bunch of egotistical asshats. THAT... I wager is far worse than what ever I could come up with! Am I mad? Yes... I voted... I payed for this game... I plan to use what was given to me to my fullest extent... including my expressing an opinion. The CSM has great potential... but there must be some changes to how they do business... or it should be terminated... immediately. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com =========================
Dirty Wizard	Posted - 2009.10.20 23:25:00 - [68] Edited by: Dirty Wizard on 20/10/2009 23:35:59 I'm curious to see which CSM(s) have the moral fiber to bring this issue to the next upcoming meeting: CSM 3 Meeting 10 - Sunday October 25th 16:00 Granted it's not a week old, but the very nature of this thread and the recent misbehavior of a CSM member warrants an exception. To ignore or delay this issue will only cause further resentment towards the CSM process. __________________________________ Want to help fix the CSM process? Show your support here.
Mynxee Minmatar Hellcats The Bastards.	Posted - 2009.10.20 23:40:00 - [69] Originally by: Drake Draconis The CSM has great potential... but there must be some changes to how they do business... I agree, their operational processes and practices need revamped. That won't stop idiots from acting like idiots, though. True colors always shine through, whatever their root cause (lack of maturity, inexperience, or just not giving a **). Before you throw the baby out with the bathwater, keep in mind that the worst behavior we've seen from CSM delegates has come from a tiny minority of their members. The vast majority have conducted themselves admirably--at least as far as we can tell from their behavior on the forums here and in meeting chat logs. Got to give credit where it's due. Originally by:** Drake Draconis or it should be terminated... immediately. Disagree with you on that one, hence no thumbs up from me for your idea as a whole. One thing that would mitigate asshattery would be for CCP to give players the ability to impeach a CSM candidate who acted like a total **. Related to that, the whole CSM process needs more participation (i.e., voting, competing for seats, and participating in the CSM forums) from the playerbase--ideas for which I've been internally brainstorming about quite a bit recently. Bump It! \| My Blog: Life in Low Sec**
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre REIGN Alliance	Posted - 2009.10.20 23:46:00 - [70] Edited by: Drake Draconis on 20/10/2009 23:47:00 Originally by: Mynxee Originally by: Drake Draconis The CSM has great potential... but there must be some changes to how they do business... I agree, their operational processes and practices need revamped. That won't stop idiots from acting like idiots, though. True colors always shine through, whatever their root cause (lack of maturity, inexperience, or just not giving a **). Before you throw the baby out with the bathwater, keep in mind that the worst behavior we've seen from CSM delegates has come from a tiny minority of their members. The vast majority have conducted themselves admirably--at least as far as we can tell from their behavior on the forums here and in meeting chat logs. Got to give credit where it's due. Originally by:** Drake Draconis or it should be terminated... immediately. Disagree with you on that one, hence no thumbs up from me for your idea as a whole. One thing that would mitigate asshattery would be for CCP to give players the ability to impeach a CSM candidate who acted like a total ****. Related to that, the whole CSM process needs more participation (i.e., voting, competing for seats, and participating in the CSM forums) from the playerbase--ideas for which I've been internally brainstorming about quite a bit recently. In response to the termination statement... yes... that was a bit extreme... but you got one major question here... what is the point if there is no check sum system? Why bother at all if this is all we are going to get? To implement a checksum requires an unbiased (if you wana call it that) party... unfortunately that means CCP whom moderates anyway... I'm not so sure if they would even go that far. At that rate CCP is better off having a dedicated team to sit here on the forums and just chat things up... not likely to happen... hell the CSM will never go away at this rate. Don't mean we all cant make a ruckus about it. But you do have valid points none-the-less. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com =========================
Mynxee Minmatar Hellcats The Bastards.	Posted - 2009.10.21 00:38:00 - [71] Originally by: Drake Draconis what is the point if there is no check sum system? Why bother at all if this is all we are going to get? Because I believe that the type of CSM delegate who gets elected--and the efficacy of the CSM itself--will evolve toward a more idea form over time (no guarantee there won't be an occasional mutant, though!), assuming those of us with sufficient interest in how that could happen keep talking, do our part to encourage more players to participate, and step up ourselves when we can. You ought to run for CSM5. If we both got elected, it could be fun to see what you're like in RL given your energetic opinions here. Bump It! \| My Blog: Life in Low Sec
Omber Zombie Gallente Frontier Technologies	Posted - 2009.10.21 01:19:00 - [72] Quote: exceptions, regardless of the infraction. representatives are not only expected to uphold the social contract that all society members are held accountable to, but should also set a behavior standard for everyone else to follow. from here go sick ---------------------- My Blog
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre REIGN Alliance	Posted - 2009.10.21 01:25:00 - [73] Originally by: Mynxee Originally by: Drake Draconis what is the point if there is no check sum system? Why bother at all if this is all we are going to get? Because I believe that the type of CSM delegate who gets elected--and the efficacy of the CSM itself--will evolve toward a more idea form over time (no guarantee there won't be an occasional mutant, though!), assuming those of us with sufficient interest in how that could happen keep talking, do our part to encourage more players to participate, and step up ourselves when we can. You ought to run for CSM5. If we both got elected, it could be fun to see what you're like in RL given your energetic opinions here. Heh... you might be disappointed as I tend to be more mentally active than I am vocally.. unless there's a good discussion. If anything CSM may very well result in me calming down a bit for fear of getting my ass handed to me by my peers. X) ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com =========================
Larkonis TrassIer Neo Spartans Laconian Syndicate	Posted - 2009.10.21 01:30:00 - [74] Originally by: Drake Draconis In response to the termination statement... yes... that was a bit extreme... but you got one major question here... what is the point if there is no check sum system? Why bother at all if this is all we are going to get? To implement a checksum requires an unbiased (if you wana call it that) party... unfortunately that means CCP whom moderates anyway... I'm not so sure if they would even go that far. At that rate CCP is better off having a dedicated team to sit here on the forums and just chat things up... not likely to happen... hell the CSM will never go away at this rate. Don't mean we all cant make a ruckus about it. But you do have valid points none-the-less. The system is less than 18 months old. If you expect it to be perfect right off the bat then you're deluded. As awareness grows and more people become aware of the process and get involved hopefully then you will have your 'check sum'.
Argonis Valentio Senex Legio	Posted - 2009.10.21 04:18:00 - [75] Originally by: Larkonis TrassIer Originally by: Drake Draconis In response to the termination statement... yes... that was a bit extreme... but you got one major question here... what is the point if there is no check sum system? Why bother at all if this is all we are going to get? To implement a checksum requires an unbiased (if you wana call it that) party... unfortunately that means CCP whom moderates anyway... I'm not so sure if they would even go that far. At that rate CCP is better off having a dedicated team to sit here on the forums and just chat things up... not likely to happen... hell the CSM will never go away at this rate. Don't mean we all cant make a ruckus about it. But you do have valid points none-the-less. The system is less than 18 months old. If you expect it to be perfect right off the bat then you're deluded. As awareness grows and more people become aware of the process and get involved hopefully then you will have your 'check sum'. You will actually find, according to the data CCP recorded from CSM voting, that the voting awareness and committment of the player base is dropping rather than increasing, or perhaps is simply stagnant. CSM 1 = 10%, 2 = 8%, 3 = 9%
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre REIGN Alliance	Posted - 2009.10.21 05:09:00 - [76] How bout that... sounds like CSM is driving away the interest. Go figure. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com =========================
sakana North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.10.21 11:15:00 - [77] Originally by: Drake Draconis Looks like PL has become the new Goonswarm... heh. hey man 2008 called, he's says he's been there and done that.
Dramaticus GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.10.21 15:19:00 - [78] id say the CSM has done pretty well despite being saddled with people like jade and women(that was redundant i guess) Please don't use RL pictuers of players in Sig without permission. - WeatherMan
Dirty Wizard	Posted - 2009.10.22 03:33:00 - [79] Originally by: sakana Originally by: Drake Draconis Looks like PL has become the new Goonswarm... heh. hey man 2008 called, he's says he's been there and done that. It was never this threads intention to insult, take shots, sling mud, or imply negative connotations about PL and the Goons. We're talking about one CSM who was thrown out and another who is misbehaving badly (who just happens to be a member of PL). The only reason the Goons were mentioned is because of their guaranteed multiple seats on the CSM due to their voting muscle. Let's keep things in perspective. It's an issue about lack of CSM oversight by CCP. It's an issue when a CSM member(s) can continue to misbehave so badly yet the playerbase has no mechanic or recourse to throw them out. It's an issue when a CSM forcefully pushes ahead issues so unpopular that the playerbase reacts with such anger. Issues which common sense dictates should have never been given a second glance. It's an issue about entire alliances flexing their voting muscle to keep clowns like these in office who clearly have no business being there. This thread isn't going away anytime soon. Sure it may fill to thread capacity, but other threads similar to this one are already starting. This cannot go unaddressed for much longer. __________________________________ Want to help fix the CSM process? Show your support here.
Argonis Valentio Senex Legio	Posted - 2009.10.22 11:16:00 - [80] I beg to differ! CCP have a super power up their sleeve. That super power is......drum roll.....the power to ignore you indefinitely! This issue has been addressed time and time again. The petitioning process requires persistent spamming, whining, crying, *****ing, more whining and more crying before you finally get a proper response. I have said time and time again, if CCP felt that it had to do something or that it wanted to do something, it could and with great effect and to great lengths. Very few topics are monitored by the GM's and I think that you may very well need to hit report a few thousand times before it happens. FYI, try hitting report on this message and see if something happens to this thread for once xD.
Dirty Wizard	Posted - 2009.10.23 16:23:00 - [81] Originally by: Larkonis TrassIer The system is less than 18 months old. If you expect it to be perfect right off the bat then you're deluded. As awareness grows and more people become aware of the process and get involved hopefully then you will have your 'check sum'. Of course it's not perfect. After all we've seen so far as of late, it's nowhere near perfect. Improvements are still badly needed and they won't happen unless CCP steps in and intervenes. The CSMs have already demonstrated they cannot conduct themselves accordingly. They cannot be expected to police themselves. __________________________________ Want to help fix the CSM process? Show your support here.
Hubris Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.10.23 17:47:00 - [82] Originally by: Dirty Wizard Originally by: sakana Originally by: Drake Draconis Looks like PL has become the new Goonswarm... heh. hey man 2008 called, he's says he's been there and done that. It was never this threads intention to insult, take shots, sling mud, or imply negative connotations about PL and the Goons. We're talking about one CSM who was thrown out and another who is misbehaving badly (who just happens to be a member of PL). The only reason the Goons were mentioned is because of their guaranteed multiple seats on the CSM due to their voting muscle. Let's keep things in perspective. It's an issue about lack of CSM oversight by CCP. It's an issue when a CSM member(s) can continue to misbehave so badly yet the playerbase has no mechanic or recourse to throw them out. It's an issue when a CSM forcefully pushes ahead issues so unpopular that the playerbase reacts with such anger. Issues which common sense dictates should have never been given a second glance. It's an issue about entire alliances flexing their voting muscle to keep clowns like these in office who clearly have no business being there. This thread isn't going away anytime soon. Sure it may fill to thread capacity, but other threads similar to this one are already starting. This cannot go unaddressed for much longer. wow i thought this and threads like it are all about how easy it is to troll people in this forum section. Thank you for clarifying this. ITS SERIOUS BUSINESS!!!!!!!!!! lol. - uncensored eve discussion and battle reports www.BattleDB.com
Traidor Disloyal Private Nuisance	Posted - 2009.10.23 19:40:00 - [83] The CSM is a joke (needs more clown). It's not worth the toilet paper it was created on. ************************************************* I have three characters. One has Cov Ops V along with all the bells and whistles that goes with it.
Exie Phantasmal Collective Vanguard.	Posted - 2009.10.26 22:11:00 - [84] Um we do have a recourse, do not vote them back in!!! SHOKANAWE Seriously, it is all about participation, if you don't like what you see, then run for none of the above. E... We be Jammin'
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre REIGN Alliance	Posted - 2009.10.26 22:14:00 - [85] Originally by: Exie Um we do have a recourse, do not vote them back in!!! SHOKANAWE Seriously, it is all about participation, if you don't like what you see, then run for none of the above. There's only one problem with that kind of mentality... which makes Pandemic Legions excuse (run for office) bull crap. By voting for none of the above if at all.. it doesn't stop asshats from being re-elected by there own bloody alliance/mob. Minor detail to be sure.. but a valid one at that. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com =========================
Dianeces The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.10.27 02:51:00 - [86] Originally by: Drake Draconis There's only one problem with that kind of mentality... which makes Pandemic Legions excuse (run for office) bull crap. Yeah, man. We're totally the only ones telling you to do that.
Dirty Wizard	Posted - 2009.10.29 05:39:00 - [87] Well, if Mazz was just crying out for attention, I think she got it. Just heard the latest Channel Massive podcast and this whole business of CSM issues for sale was mentioned. Another dark spot on the CSMs already tarnished reputation. __________________________________ Want to help fix the CSM process? Show your support here.
LO'''''''''''''''''''''L Robber Barons Inc. Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.10.29 12:46:00 - [88] Originally by: Dirty Wizard Well, if Mazz was just crying out for attention, I think she got it. Just heard the latest Channel Massive podcast and this whole business of CSM issues for sale was mentioned. Another dark spot on the CSMs already tarnished reputation. haha wow. i've never heard of this channel massive podcast before but apparently someone with my name submitted a lead to the story? i downloaded it and finally found the bit, i lol'ed (mazz's alt) ___________ PROUD MEMBER OF ROBBER BARONS INC.
Tiny Tove	Posted - 2009.10.29 16:05:00 - [89] One only has to compare Votes Cast against Accounts Subscribed to realise that damm near nobody gives a flying fig about the CSM or their fevered egos. You can automate the role of CSM we have now. It's called a Forum Poll. Everybody else has had them for a decade. Give us the CSM we were originally promised, and stop charging us money for this weak talking shop that we can't do anything about. --- WTB: Unwritten Forum Rules and list of posters you're not allowed to Report.
Fenris Ulfur Bio Material Inc	Posted - 2010.01.27 16:42:00 - [90] Well this is disturbing to say the least. After doing a search on EVE-Search for the whole issue of Larkonisgate, after reading this dev blog here, just to get a better idea of what happened I found this thread and having a bit of time on my hands and a fresh cup of coffee I decided to go against my own judgement and read the forums for once. First of I like the idea of the CSM. Its a whole new twist on the issue of Game designer vs the Player base and something that makes me proud of CCP (being an Icelander I have the same chronic sickness as the rest of the country). But like Dirty Wizard says and then Mazzilliu clearly confirms is that the CSM is broken. The CSM is not broken because the large alliances have representatives in the council. It is understandable that the largest bodies of players that have grouped themselves together vote for a player within their own alliance. This mirrors what happens in real life, you vote for the person that can best represent your views and ideas. And as the council says at c.a 35 minutes into the video here they are able to agree on issues concerning High, low and zero sec play styles (9/0 vote on something concerning missions at 36 min into the above video). No the reason the CSM is broken is that it allows a whole seat (or more) to be occupied by a player that clearly has no real drive to be in the CSM (Mazzilliu). She acts like a little kid in a school yard trying to act cool and tough against well written and thought out concerns, about the issues/ideas that the CSM is spending their time talking about, instead of acting like a representative of the players and taking her position seriously and with a little pride. I have no ounce of fear regarding if CCP will allow the change Mazzilliu suggested and the council voted on and passed, by a margin of 1 vote mind you, to get implemented because every individual can see the potential for misuse. The CSM is not a council that can impose its will on CCP. This they have said many times. But I guess that having the longest possible term only 1 year, to weed out those who do not deserve to be there, would only limit the use of those council members that actually do take their position with pride and realize what kind of unique position they are in. And having a longer term (+1 year) would only create a larger possibility for individuals that think the CSM is a joke to get elected repeatedly by those who share their narrow mindedness. And how would CCP ever promote the idea of democracy to the players if they would simply kick out those CSM members that are obviously not doing their job correctly. Even if the reasons were sound they would still be going against the principles that are the cornerstones of the CSM. This, it would seem, shows the flaw of democracy. But I still endorse what CCP is doing with the CSM and since this is the first time anything like this has been done before it is understandable that there will be some bumps along the way trying to get it right. I only hope that CCP will create a better venue for the player base to both see each candidate's list of ideas/issues and to vote for the candidate they feel best represents them. I can honestly say that I did not vote in the first two CSM's because of the difficulty to accurately find information on the candidates. --------------------------------------------------------------------- "But rather than that you question my courage, let someone put his hand in my mouth as a pledge that this is done in good faith"

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