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Dear CCP; CSM needs to disband and reformat.

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Dirty Wizard	Posted - 2009.10.19 03:04:00 - [1] Edited by: Dirty Wizard on 19/10/2009 03:11:19 So this thread is intended to go straight to CCP and completely bypass the CSMs. The reason: the CSMs are the problem (and I highly doubt they'll bring up the issue of their own failings). After observing the last three CSM elections and reviewing their performances, it's crystal clear things need to change for the better. The entire CSM process needs to dissolve and be rebuilt in order to function as intended. Currently, it's broken. Though Larkonis' indiscretions are awful to say the least, the damage to the CSM credibility was IMO much worse. He may be called an isolated incident and that would be fine if true. Sadly, it isn't. When CSMs like mazzilliu bring up blatant self serving issues like this, it further hurts the CSM credibility. Especially when the player support vote is 3 For / 133 Against (3 For is herself, an alt, and some other guy) Somehow this "issue", despite receiving less than 1% thread support, made it onto the table with CCP. Isn't the whole purpose of the CSM Process to represent player interests and bringing them to CCP in an intelligent and structured presentation? Can anyone honestly say this CSM is speaking on the players behalf? Sadly, it gets worse. With the recent CCP fanfest, a CSM Panel was hosted to a near empty room, the video posted on youtube. Look who strolls in late and with poorly chosen words (14:15). Originally by: mazzilliu Thanks for all your votes. I'm really enjoying my trip to Iceland. Really? Is this really why she ran for CSM? A free trip to Iceland all expense paid? A simple phrase that's disturbingly insightful into her intentions. And yes it does get worse. There are alliances ingame who have guaranteed spots on the CSM panel due to their sheer size and voting muscle. Nothing personal Goons, but having multiple guaranteed seats just isn't right. I could point out further failures of the CSM process, but the point has been made. Ladies and gentlemen, we can do better than this. We, as a playerbase, are not being represented by those whose sole purpose is to represent us. CCP I implore you. Disband the CSM and restructure so these failings never happen again. Reform the CSM with clear and public guidelines and structure. Define what is expected of them and what their purpose is. Give us the tools to determine which issues the CSMs bring up and which ones they don't. Form an inside panel to review CSM performance so we can finally be rid of their "sleazy politics". Become more transparent and public with the ongoings of CSMs. We're sick of this shadowy process. We're sick of being left out in the cold. There may yet still be hope for salvaging this broken CSM process. But we can't do it without your help CCP. Oh, and I like pie
Bunyip Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2009.10.19 03:12:00 - [2] Yes, some candidates get elected that IMHO do not deserve to be elected. Some of them consider the CSM a joke, and the players are the targets of that joke. However, they do get elected by the players. Reformatting the CSM won't do anything to help this facet. The fact that Mazz raised the issue in a CSM meeting isn't at all surprising. What is surprising is that the measure passed. When I was in office, you can see by my history that I raised some issues that didn't get good support, and therefore didn't even bring them up to the CSM. Some of the issues that got a lot of support got shut down by my other delegates. However, this is a democratically-elected council, and this is part and parcel of the tale. If you think this is wrong, use the power you've been granted by CCP to change it by doing research and voting in people who are responsible. Don't whine about a system that does somewhat work, even if it isn't perfect. Less than 10% of the playerbase voted last time. We can do better, but that might actually require some eek effort from the players. Go to the polls and vote, and encourage friends and corporate members to do the same. "May all your hits be crits." - Knights of the Dinner Table.
Dirty Wizard	Posted - 2009.10.19 03:25:00 - [3] Edited by: Dirty Wizard on 19/10/2009 03:25:39 First of all, supporting my own thread Originally by: Bunyip Go to the polls and vote, and encourage friends and corporate members to do the same. And just for the record, I have voted for candidates whom have shown a lot of initiative towards cleaning up this mess. However they've always been a letdown afterwards. Even in the last election for CSM3, I voted for someone who later turned out to be a complete asshat. I'm sure someone out there will liken this onto sleazy RL politics, but it doesn't have to be and that's the entire point of the thread. We can do better than this. __________________________________ Want to help fix the CSM process? Show your support here.
Cheekything Gallente Fallen Angel's Blade.	Posted - 2009.10.19 03:27:00 - [4] Jealous much? I doubt you want their jobs lets be fair. Fanfest was awesome thank you.
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre REIGN Alliance	Posted - 2009.10.19 06:07:00 - [5] Edited by: Drake Draconis on 19/10/2009 06:10:51 Originally by: Bunyip Yes, some candidates get elected that IMHO do not deserve to be elected. Some of them consider the CSM a joke, and the players are the targets of that joke. However, they do get elected by the players. Reformatting the CSM won't do anything to help this facet. The fact that Mazz raised the issue in a CSM meeting isn't at all surprising. What is surprising is that the measure passed. When I was in office, you can see by my history that I raised some issues that didn't get good support, and therefore didn't even bring them up to the CSM. Some of the issues that got a lot of support got shut down by my other delegates. However, this is a democratically-elected council, and this is part and parcel of the tale. If you think this is wrong, use the power you've been granted by CCP to change it by doing research and voting in people who are responsible. Don't whine about a system that does somewhat work, even if it isn't perfect. Less than 10% of the playerbase voted last time. We can do better, but that might actually require some eek effort from the players. Go to the polls and vote, and encourage friends and corporate members to do the same. Agreed... but the problem remains none-the-less. Even If I was to run and (possibly) could pull it off as I have a bit of an ace up my sleeve support wise. <.<;;; (Don't look so shocked... just because you hate my guts doesn't mean there's isn't a large contingent of people who do like me : O P ) I don't think its worth the effort or trouble in all honesty. That should say something to you people... think about that for a bit. For starters... the CSM has no checksum in place for crap that mazz pulls. One voice against a pile of CSM's who abuse that power is not going to help me whether I'm In it or not. Secondly... the obvious brick wall of communication is likely NDA's and that's not good for someone (such as myself) who scream in the face of stupidity. Thirdly... I'm a rather contrary person... people don't like me because I don't hesitate to shine a 100 million candle spotlight in your face if your a moron. Not likely to win points there... even for the fact that I would never pull the crap mazz did... or lark (which was minor in comparison IMHO which should have cost Lark more than he had to pay but mazz did far worse). CCP should enforce a strict set of rules concerning the submission of ideas and the process of which they are benched. And I refuse to accept Mazz's "Pathetic" excuse for why she pushed it forward without proof from CCP itself. None of that NDA bull####. I would support this proposal under normal circumstances but Bunyip has a valid point. So I'm torn at the moment... but I agree... there is a serious problem... and it needs to be resolved... pronto. IF they can bring any idea to the front of the list with minimal to ZERO public support... the CSM should likely be shut down and scrapped to be replaced by something with a little more accountability than it has today. Not an easy thing to fix to be sure. This is supposed to be (I REALLY HATE USING THIS WORD) Democratic process in which people bring forth ideas... they are critiqued... tested... and then the CSM votes those things that are popular. But this is nothing.... the CSM are praticually dictators who agree to cooperate and vote on things.... we are just the peanut gallery who have no sway or control over the situation. They choose to listen or to ignore... or laugh at us. That's not how this is supposed to work... If CCP intended to push this forward they would have never have bothered with the CSM in the FIRST PLACE. They would bypass them entirely... after all they are in charge and at large. So all it comes down to is this... if the CSM is really who they are... then who do they answer to? Sure as hell ain't us. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com =========================
Gone'Postal Naviworks Inc	Posted - 2009.10.19 06:27:00 - [6] Edited by: Gone''Postal on 19/10/2009 06:26:50 According to a GM who likes to sleep in odd places. "There is no fixed number of votes required, the CSM decides which issues is being given priority." So they could just ignore this forum and bring issues to CCP that they dream up the day before. Which makes voting a waste of time for players IF the CSM members want to ignore it as some do. Supported BUT good luck getting the CSM to raise this one. Originally by: Rells Without the carebears, the economy would be dead.
ThaDollaGenerale The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.10.19 06:36:00 - [7] All I hear is bawwwwww
Herschel Yamamoto Agent-Orange	Posted - 2009.10.19 06:52:00 - [8] I get that you're ***ed. For that matter, I agree with some of the reasons. Mazz's issue was largely idiotic, as I said in my reply to it, and the fact that the CSM passed it flabbergasts me(though to be fair, 3/136 is 2%, not 1%). I would never have voted for it myself. I like a lot of what Mazz has to say, and I think she gets a bad rap sometimes for being too sarcastic, like in that quote, but she's far from an ideal CSM. That said, this is how democracy works. You elect fools, you elect slackers, you elect people most interested in lining their pockets, and you elect people who have grand visions and never deliver on them(and no, I am not* referring to anyone in particular with any of those). Democracy is not perfect, and it won't be perfect until every candidate's innermost thoughts are known to the voters, and every voter is an expert on every issue. Needless to say, I'm not holding my breath on either of those. The problem here isn't the democracy though - it's that you're expecting too much of it. You're making the perfect the enemy of the good. And yes, the CSM we have is a good thing, warts and all. Yeah, you elect Lark and watch him self-destruct, or you elect...well, most of them have proposed a silly issue or two, so I won't even single out Mazz. You also elect the body that finally managed to kick CCP's ass hard enough to make them realize the skill queue we'd been screaming for six years was something that we really did want. The CSM provides a good cross-section of the players, and they have enough weight behind themselves to make CCP listen to the will of the players as best our representatives can advance it. I'm not going to mess around with that system just because you think you can do better with the next set of rules. You can't - this is what democracy always looks like. There's a reason Churchill called it the worst system except for all the others. It is, but I wouldn't give it up for the world.
Hun Jakuza 24th Imperial Guard	Posted - 2009.10.19 09:00:00 - [9] Edited by: Hun Jakuza on 19/10/2009 09:04:44 Originally by: Cheekything Jealous much? I doubt you want their jobs lets be fair. Fanfest was awesome thank you. Realy ? But they wrote the truth. CSM a joke. Most of CSM members elected from alliance mail from 0.0 corps. Binding vote it's not so fair against other candidates. Need an other solution for vote. Maybe a popup window in Eve when starting the client before the next election will be started and maybe CCP will be get better result as 10% of Eve players. And other things because the whole CSM is 0.0 players, most of problem focused just to 0.0 Cry for cloak,cry for cloak MWD etc,logoffsky and about them does not change nothing. http://wiki.eveonline.com/wiki/Drone_improvements Just look out this. This is just one of many things. Voted almost one years ago. Changed anyone ? No.
Sargeant Bash The-Secret-Service	Posted - 2009.10.19 10:19:00 - [10] Personally the CSM has been utter failure since it started IMO. Its all about who gets most votes and egos, well if your in a large alliance then of course your going to win. Its about personal preferences for those alliances not for the good of the whole of eve and thats was what it was supposed to be. maybe thats what CCP intended it to be, as the majority of players going to use the full depth of the game are the large alliances? Maybe... Remember your supposed to be the voice of all players of eve, I saw one thread that because CCP decided not to answer or give suggestions to a problem they closed it! Keh? Your supposed to push CCP on matters and get an answer, again that was the point of CSM, otherwise whats the point!? However CSM was supposed to be that conduit between player and CCP, really i hear nothing, and you only see stuff if you go look for it. Something needs to change big time, so supported..I think at least change it so that you must of played eve for at least 3 years to apply!. and the people voted just dont know how to work as real stakeholders and drive issues through. Maybe CCP need to hire a set of independants, but there again if they not going to listen to CSM then they aint going to listen to anyone. Any perhaps thats the real problem CCP not coming to their side of the bargain?..
Dianeces The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.10.19 10:38:00 - [11] Edited by: Dianeces on 19/10/2009 10:43:50 Originally by: Hun Jakuza [Because the whole CSM is 0.0 players, most of problems focused just to 0.0 You're absolutely right. Everyone on the CSM represents 0.0 interests. Especially the E-Uni dude, and that Erik dude who is a carebear, and....owait~ Edit: As for the figure saying that 133 people disagreed with mazz's issue: that's disingenuous at best, and completely dishonest at worst. There's a group of about six or seven posters who represent the vast majority of posts in that thread. They don't get multiple votes. Go count the number of people who posted in the thread, rather than the posts, before trying to analyze the support it got.
Ariane VoxDei	Posted - 2009.10.19 10:53:00 - [12] Posting to vote support. I think those who have been following these things have an idea of my views on the matters. Apart from that I do object to one point raised by the OP: Thread support. It should not really be a criteria or requirement, in deciding whether something gets raised or not. Does anyone even read the first post of every thread in assembly hall? It's like being forced to read the features and ideas section. So, lack of threadsupport is no acceptable reason to drop something. Otoh, a lot of support can be mustered simply by certain people telling their pleebs to go vote it. Not it those exact words, but it does not take all that much, due to the lack of attention these things generally get, to make it look like a lot of support, compared to the majority of things. Therefore, drop the notion that thread support (=thumbcount) should matter, it is not realistic with the current level of participation by the general population. btw, I would like to point out that the CSM minutes from the last meeting with CCP is still missing from the official page: http://www.eveonline.com/council/voting/transcripts.asp We asked for them nicely at first, and then not so nicely since we didn't get them. We still do not have them. That says a lot. That + the OP + a number of other things speak for a serious rethink, rather just pushing forward as-is without some changes and cutting through the BS in and from the CSM delegates, which rather obviously is present in abundance. No offense Xhagen, but you need to set some people straight or it will decay further.
Ariane VoxDei	Posted - 2009.10.19 11:05:00 - [13] Forgot the thumb.
RedSplat Noir.	Posted - 2009.10.19 11:07:00 - [14] She Be Rollin' You Hatin' Originally by: CCP Mitnal I don't sleep. I am always here. Watching. Waiting.
Tiger's Spirit	Posted - 2009.10.19 11:35:00 - [15] Edited by: Tiger''s Spirit on 19/10/2009 11:35:50 Originally by: Dianeces Originally by: Hun Jakuza [Because the whole CSM is 0.0 players, most of problems focused just to 0.0 You're absolutely right. Everyone on the CSM represents 0.0 interests. Especially the E-Uni dude, and that Erik dude who is a carebear, and....owait~ Edit: As for the figure saying that 133 people disagreed with mazz's issue: that's disingenuous at best, and completely dishonest at worst. There's a group of about six or seven posters who represent the vast majority of posts in that thread. They don't get multiple votes. Go count the number of people who posted in the thread, rather than the posts, before trying to analyze the support it got. Blabla and far away from truth. Vuk Lau (high sec carebear realy) Morsus Mihi mazzilliu (high sec carebear realy) Pandemic Legion Zastrow (high sec carebear realy) Goon Avalloc (high sec carebear realy) Goon You want to more ? They dont like the dirty/tricky plays ? They do it always. http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=692
Dianeces The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.10.19 12:06:00 - [16] Originally by: Tiger's Spirit Edited by: Tiger''s Spirit on 19/10/2009 11:35:50 Originally by: Dianeces Originally by: Hun Jakuza [Because the whole CSM is 0.0 players, most of problems focused just to 0.0 You're absolutely right. Everyone on the CSM represents 0.0 interests. Especially the E-Uni dude, and that Erik dude who is a carebear, and....owait~ Edit: As for the figure saying that 133 people disagreed with mazz's issue: that's disingenuous at best, and completely dishonest at worst. There's a group of about six or seven posters who represent the vast majority of posts in that thread. They don't get multiple votes. Go count the number of people who posted in the thread, rather than the posts, before trying to analyze the support it got. Blabla and far away from truth. Vuk Lau (high sec carebear realy) Morsus Mihi mazzilliu (high sec carebear realy) Pandemic Legion Zastrow (high sec carebear realy) Goon Avalloc (high sec carebear realy) Goon You want to more ? They dont like the dirty/tricky plays ? They do it always. http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=692 Ahahahahaha. u mad~
Dr BattleSmith PAX Interstellar Services	Posted - 2009.10.19 14:19:00 - [17] Originally by: Dirty Wizard Look who strolls in late and with poorly chosen words (14:15). Originally by: mazzilliu Thanks for all your votes. I'm really enjoying my trip to Iceland. Really? Is this really why she ran for CSM? A free trip to Iceland all expense paid? A simple phrase that's disturbingly insightful into her intentions. You weren't the only one that cringed at that comment. There was no further input from that end of the table after that.
mazzilliu Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.10.19 14:27:00 - [18] to add to your nerd rage and list of my indiscretions, i raised this issue with ZERO supports and even zero posts! thats like, even less support then my term limits issue. I didnt even post to support it myself. you should probably make a youtube video or something about it. if you want to audit the performance of the CSM, you can do it right here from the comfort of your own computer chair. plenty of the issues on that list were raised by me, some of which were extremely popular issues. youll probably ignore the full list of what we've actually done and keep complaining about how we don't represent da people or something like that, though. and i can totally understand that, everyone has a right to cry on eve-o for very little good reason. re: the CSM panel- well im glad i accomplished at least one thing there by trolling you people IRL. the entire CSM panel was us answering a small handful of questions for an hour. almost all of it was stuff you can look up. fanfest is for parties, our actual work as the CSM was in private and all held early on the first day. i attended all of that. also, CCP don't read the assembly hall forums. but i'll save this thread so i can show it to my voting base next re-election. for some reason they like it when eveo posters get trolled and cry on the forums about it, especially when it's for pretty much no good reason. this will get me more votes next time around. supported for trolling (a half dozen of)the assembly hall posters signed,(kisses and hugs) the most diplomatic diplomat in PL and a real girl in real life- mazzilliu Originally by: Tiger's Spirit Blabla and far away from truth. Vuk Lau (high sec carebear realy) Morsus Mihi mazzilliu (high sec carebear realy) Pandemic Legion Zastrow (high sec carebear realy) Goon Avalloc (high sec carebear realy) Goon You want to more ? They dont like the dirty/tricky plays ? They do it always. http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=692 this post is disappointing it doesnt even contain scandal involving the people you listed. larkonis has no big alliance backing him. MAZZILLIU 2009. CHANGE I CAN IMPOSE ON YOU.
De'Veldrin Special Projects Executive	Posted - 2009.10.19 14:33:00 - [19] Edited by: De''Veldrin on 19/10/2009 14:38:22 Originally by: Dianeces Ahahahahaha. u mad~ Actually, yes, quite a few of us are, indeed, angry about the situation. Although, to be honest, I'm more irritated about Mazz's flagrant abuse of her power than I am about Larkonisgate. The CSM is a lot like a communist state -- it looks great on paper. Once you get real people involved, however, it rapidly goes to **, because (most) people are inherently selfish and out to line their own pockets. It's just how we're built - evolution ftw. What's really needed are two things: 1. Increase the vote count. The reason these lare alliances keep getting their members on the council is because they poke and prod their members to vote. We need to get a similar movement out among the non-alliance players - push the idea that they need to get out and vote. At least then if they win, they'll have earned it instead of walking into the spot. 2. Increase oversitgh of the council from the player side. Part of the issue is that once elected, a CSM member has no incentive to do anything they promised to do except actually show up to meetings. As my dad would say, they have no skin in the game, and thus can pretty much do what they want, as long as they don't incur the wrath of CCP. If anything, they are beholden to their alliances/corps pretty much because they're the people that will make their lives the most miserable if they don't push their agenda. @the OP: If you'd posted this a month ago, I'd have back it with every thumb I could muster. I've come to the realization since then that the CSM can probably be saved, but only if we get more players involved. Edit: Mazz snuck in a post on me while I was writing this. Screw it, disband them. No more free trips to anywhere for anyone. If the members of the CSM themselves are going to treat the position like a joke, dump it. I'd rather CCP spent my subscription money on new hardware than sending asshats like Mazz to Iceland so she can be an attention *** in RL as well as pixel land. --Vel In the world of emoticons, I was colon capital d.
mazzilliu Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.10.19 14:42:00 - [20] Originally by: De'Veldrin Originally by: Dianeces Ahahahahaha. u mad~ Actually, yes, quite a few of us are, indeed, angry about the situation. Although, to be honest, I'm more irritated about Mazz's flagrant abuse of her power than I am about Larkonisgate. The CSM is a lot like a communist state -- it looks great on paper. Once you get real people involved, however, it rapidly goes to ****, because (most) people are inherently selfish and out to line their own pockets. It's just how we're built - evolution ftw. What's really needed are two things: 1. Increase the vote count. The reason these lare alliances keep getting their members on the council is because they poke and prod their members to vote. We need to get a similar movement out among the non-alliance players - push the idea that they need to get out and vote. At least then if they win, they'll have earned it instead of walking into the spot. 2. Increase oversitgh of the council from the player side. Part of the issue is that once elected, a CSM member has no incentive to do anything they promised to do except actually show up to meetings. As my dad would say, they have no skin in the game, and thus can pretty much do what they want, as long as they don't incur the wrath of CCP. If anything, they are beholden to their alliances/corps pretty much because they're the people that will make their lives the most miserable if they don't push their agenda. @the OP: If you'd posted this a month ago, I'd have back it with every thumb I could muster. I've come to the realization since then that the CSM can probably be saved, but only if we get more players involved. haha, a dozen of you are mad more like. the function of the csm has always been for people to raise issues to CCP to improve the game. we still do that just fine, and ccp seem pretty happy with the count and quality of issues raised so far. you (dozen)guys act like we are stealing money from da people or some terrible crime. its pretty funny MAZZILLIU 2009. CHANGE I CAN IMPOSE ON YOU.
Hun Jakuza 24th Imperial Guard	Posted - 2009.10.19 15:01:00 - [21] BTW Need clear and clean rules. First: "Supported" and "Not Supported" button for this forum. Second: When an Idea reach a minimum supporter count and reached over 50%+1vote must be move to CSM vote. (100-200-300 or other numbers; find out) Players controlled CSM - CSM controlled CCP
Nuts Nougat Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.10.19 15:04:00 - [22] Agreed, CSM process needs to change. There's not enough awesome people like mazzilliu on it. Fake edit: first page in this epic threadnought. ---
Grouchy Smurf Minmatar	Posted - 2009.10.19 15:12:00 - [23] Edited by: Grouchy Smurf on 19/10/2009 15:12:39 Originally by: Hun Jakuza Players controlled CSM - CSM controlled CCP And then we move to Communism? Real edit: it won't be a threadnought, it will be a failure.
Romale Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.10.19 15:14:00 - [24] I wish to make my campaign promise for when i run for csm right now: i will not rest until the true dream of Mazzilliu being the only person on the csm is achieved. today the CSM, tomorrow CCP!
Tradesman Mcgee Caldari	Posted - 2009.10.19 15:15:00 - [25] Edited by: Tradesman Mcgee on 19/10/2009 15:15:17 "Supporting my own thread" These highsec carebear tears are pretty sweet. Run for CSM yourself, and stop crying like a little girl. Nothing stop you from launching a campaign, travel around in Eve and copy and paste your campaign website etc, but I guess its less effort posting whine posts on a forum? -------------------------- Insert signature.
Hun Jakuza 24th Imperial Guard	Posted - 2009.10.19 15:18:00 - [26] Originally by: Grouchy Smurf Edited by: Grouchy Smurf on 19/10/2009 15:12:39 Originally by: Hun Jakuza Players controlled CSM - CSM controlled CCP And then we move to Communism? Real edit: it won't be a threadnought, it will be a failure. Failpost This named to democracy. everybody depends on each other and supervises each other
Tomic The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.10.19 15:20:00 - [27] Edited by: Tomic on 19/10/2009 15:21:08 Originally by: Grouchy Smurf And then we move to Communism? Hey, it's good enough for china fake fake edit: This is truely going to be an epic threadnaught.
App Rentoo	Posted - 2009.10.19 15:31:00 - [28] Cry more? <3 ---------------------------------------------- Caldari State corp standing services.
Tiger's Spirit Caldari	Posted - 2009.10.19 15:33:00 - [29] Edited by: Tiger''s Spirit on 19/10/2009 15:34:33 Originally by: Tomic Edited by: Tomic on 19/10/2009 15:21:08 Originally by: Grouchy Smurf And then we move to Communism? Hey, it's good enough for china fake fake edit: This is truely going to be an epic threadnaught. So pathetic. You need more ally member from ventrilo or from corp channel. Just yell there, my CSM lover cries and need help in eve.com. Alts and members go to defend :D
Ernest Borgnine	Posted - 2009.10.19 16:04:00 - [30] I too, think this CSM is nothing but a sham and a fraud. It goes against every principle of Democracy that goons of all people should be allowed to be voted in and the fact there's even representatives from PL just goes to show how broken the system is. CCP should ban them all. Much like the OP Dirty Wizard, I too believe that the CSM would be much better if it were comprised solely from members of the other side of Eve 0.0 politics. I also support where Dirty Wizard is going with his idea. Representatives should be that. Solely Representatives. During their term in the CSM all members should have their ingame accounts frozen to prevent distraction from their duties. They should also be taken to Iceland and kept in solitary confinement to prevent being conataminated with bias from human interraction on the matters that they are currently considering. The facility should be known as "The Box". Once accepted onto the CSM they should be immediately flown out to Iceland and placed in "The Box". Relevent reading material can be passed via a dumb waiter, as well as the necessary foods and liquids. This allows the representative to work for the people without interference or distraction until their term comes to an end and they are released from "The Box". Early release from "The Box" should not be an option except in obvious cases of medical emergency or death. I believe "The Box" will allow the CSM to act more fluidly in considering matters of extreme importance in the Eve-Universe and put to bed claims of bias.
Larkonis TrassIer Neo Spartans Laconian Syndicate	Posted - 2009.10.19 16:05:00 - [31] This thread is shaping up to be pretty good... I don't even know where to start. For those who haven't realised it yet, you've all been trolled massively by a dainty little Azn girl. Grats. Through your ignorance and short sightedness you've pretty much allowed it to happen. /whiteknight As for the other 'issues' here. 4/9 current CSM members are from big 0.0 entities, hardly dominating it. And it's only right in some ways as 0.0 is the supposed 'endgame'. Of course these people are going to be able to generate lots of support and lots of political capital quickly. If you're unhappy about it then make more contacts in game or QQ more and get back in your hugbox. If you have a problem with the way things are being done then either run yourself, try and make some constructive posts or cancel your sub. Making inflamatory and ill informed posts just makes y'all look like mongs and if this forum is filled with flamebait then noone will see any of the constructive posts. With reference to the 'thumbs up' and Maz's post. The 3 supports are all from individuals, most of the 100 or so posts on that thread were made by a dozen or so people. The system in it's current form is a bit broken. I forwarded issues which didn't have 'majority' support or even much support at all. The forum interface especially with regards to the CSM stuff is pretty woeful and should hopefully get a revamp with Spacebook/COSMOS. Blame CCP For that, not us. As for the old 'what has the CSM done for us!?!?!?!' crowd. It's barely been active for 18 months. We're only just starting to see the labours of CSM 1 come to light. It's not a case of raising an issue, CCP rubber stamping it and then getting it in the next hotfix. Regardless, you should all grow up a bit. The amount of nerdrage your are generating over a quasi political advisory group in an internet spaceships game is staggering. It's like The Phantom Menace all over again. Next thing you know we'll be having RL assassinations with delegates keeling over left right and centre, the victims of snipers, poinsoners and bomb makers.
Dirty Wizard	Posted - 2009.10.19 16:47:00 - [32] Originally by: Ernest Borgnine It goes against every principle of Democracy that goons of all people should be allowed to be voted in and the fact there's even representatives from PL just goes to show how broken the system is. CCP should ban them all. Woah now. I wouldn't go that far. IMO the Goons have just as much right to be in EvE as anyone else. The fact that they have multiple guaranteed seats on the CSM is what troubles me. Anyways, what I would like to see happen is a change in the way CSMs bring up issues to CCP, instead of bringing whatever they feel like. I would like to see them given forum tools to set up polls. A CSM would review all the threads regarding an issue, condense and rewrite it into an intelligent and unbiased format, and set one-click voting options. Those with high vote counts would be allowed to be brought up while blatant self serving issues with nearly zero public support will not be allowed for discussion coughmazzilliucough The fact that this thread is actually getting supports should be evident enough (hey I'm just as surprised as you are ) BTW, CSMs should be held accountable for their words and behavior on the forums. I cringe when I see an elected CSM trolling and behaving badly. It's shameful. It tarnishes the CSM credibility and brings upset and negative attitudes towards the whole process. Trolling and general asshat-ery behavior from a CSM should warrant closer CCP observation and possible review to dismiss. You want to be an official representative of the playerbase, start behaving as such. __________________________________ Want to help fix the CSM process? Show your support here.
Dianeces The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.10.19 16:53:00 - [33] Originally by: Dirty Wizard BTW, CSMs should be held accountable for their words and behavior on the forums. I cringe when I see an elected CSM trolling and behaving badly. It's shameful. It tarnishes the CSM credibility and brings upset and negative attitudes towards the whole process. Trolling and general asshat-ery behavior from a CSM should warrant closer CCP observation and possible review to dismiss. You want to be an official representative of the playerbase, start behaving as such. HONOURE (I like the way Mazz represents me, btw~)
Traidor Disloyal Private Nuisance	Posted - 2009.10.19 17:08:00 - [34] Originally by: De'Veldrin If the members of the CSM themselves are going to treat the position like a joke, dump it. I'd rather CCP spent my subscription money on new hardware than sending asshats like Mazz to Iceland so she can be an attention *** in RL as well as pixel land. Right here, what De'Veldrin, wrote is how I feel. If the position is going to be treated has a joke then put em all in clown suits so we can at least get a laugh at em when they do the CSM panel at the Fan Fest. Drive a little car on stage and have the CSM reps all bail out of it beeping each others noses and throwing pies at each other. *********************************************** I have three characters. One has Cov Ops V along with all the bells and whistles that goes with it.
Herschel Yamamoto Agent-Orange	Posted - 2009.10.19 17:31:00 - [35] Originally by: Traidor Disloyal Drive a little car on stage and have the CSM reps all bail out of it beeping each others noses and throwing pies at each other. Okay, now this I can totally support.
Drake Draconis Shadow Cadre REIGN Alliance	Posted - 2009.10.19 17:40:00 - [36] Edited by: Drake Draconis on 19/10/2009 17:39:58 Yes... the CSM has totally become a laughing stock of EVE Online. Supported. Looks like PL has become the new Goonswarm... heh. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com =========================
Raivi Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.10.19 18:27:00 - [37] Edited by: Raivi on 19/10/2009 18:28:08 Originally by: Dirty Wizard Trolling and general asshat-ery behavior from a CSM should warrant closer CCP observation and possible review to dismiss. You want to be an official representative of the playerbase, start behaving as such. I completely agree. The CSM should be representative of the needs and views of the voters. As a avid troll and dedicated voter, the fact that some of the CSM members don't troll is offensive to my sensibilities, political/moral beliefs, religion and sexuality. ---------------------------------------------
Raivi Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.10.19 18:34:00 - [38] Originally by: Traidor Disloyal put em all in clown suits so we can at least get a laugh at em when they do the CSM panel at the Fan Fest. Drive a little car on stage and have the CSM reps all bail out of it beeping each others noses and throwing pies at each other. Oh oh oh please this. WTB picture/video of Vuk Lau in a clown suit ---------------------------------------------
Fille Balle Ballbreakers R us	Posted - 2009.10.19 19:33:00 - [39] Originally by: Drake Draconis Agreed... but the problem remains none-the-less. Even If I was to run and (possibly) could pull it off as I have a bit of an ace up my sleeve support wise. <.<;;; (Don't look so shocked... just because you hate my guts doesn't mean there's isn't a large contingent of people who do like me : O P ) I don't think its worth the effort or trouble in all honesty. That should say something to you people... think about that for a bit. For starters... the CSM has no checksum in place for crap that mazz pulls. One voice against a pile of CSM's who abuse that power is not going to help me whether I'm In it or not. Secondly... the obvious brick wall of communication is likely NDA's and that's not good for someone (such as myself) who scream in the face of stupidity. Thirdly... I'm a rather contrary person... people don't like me because I don't hesitate to shine a 100 million candle spotlight in your face if your a moron. Not likely to win points there... even for the fact that I would never pull the crap mazz did... or lark (which was minor in comparison IMHO which should have cost Lark more than he had to pay but mazz did far worse). CCP should enforce a strict set of rules concerning the submission of ideas and the process of which they are benched. And I refuse to accept Mazz's "Pathetic" excuse for why she pushed it forward without proof from CCP itself. None of that NDA bull####. I would support this proposal under normal circumstances but Bunyip has a valid point. So I'm torn at the moment... but I agree... there is a serious problem... and it needs to be resolved... pronto. IF they can bring any idea to the front of the list with minimal to ZERO public support... the CSM should likely be shut down and scrapped to be replaced by something with a little more accountability than it has today. Not an easy thing to fix to be sure. This is supposed to be (I REALLY HATE USING THIS WORD) Democratic process in which people bring forth ideas... they are critiqued... tested... and then the CSM votes those things that are popular. But this is nothing.... the CSM are praticually dictators who agree to cooperate and vote on things.... we are just the peanut gallery who have no sway or control over the situation. They choose to listen or to ignore... or laugh at us. That's not how this is supposed to work... If CCP intended to push this forward they would have never have bothered with the CSM in the FIRST PLACE. They would bypass them entirely... after all they are in charge and at large. So all it comes down to is this... if the CSM is really who they are... then who do they answer to? Sure as hell ain't us. I'd vote for you To OP: Sorry, but that's all I have to say on this matter. Thank you.
mazzilliu Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.10.19 20:17:00 - [40] hey guys i've had the best idea ever. pay me, and i'll raise whatever pet issue you want. it can even be a really stupid issue. or even this one. to make this scam proof, i am going to ask to get paid at the rate of one 30 day PLEX license per assembly hall thread. so if i end up going back on my word, youall can ban me! i'm going to set the deadline at the 25th of october for this BUY A PIECE OF HISTORY TODAY MAZZILLIU 2009. CHANGE I CAN IMPOSE ON YOU.
Supwithdat	Posted - 2009.10.19 20:24:00 - [41] Awesome idea. I got this thing I want you to take up with CCP. How about having some filter function on the forum, so that players that are easily trolled can't respond to a post for, say, 30 minutes or so, giving them enough time to think about the post they read? Meh, who am I fooling, some people are too dumb to know they are being trolled, and would probably never catch it.
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre REIGN Alliance	Posted - 2009.10.19 20:32:00 - [42] Originally by: Fille Balle I'd vote for you To OP: Sorry, but that's all I have to say on this matter. Thank you. You serious? I'd figure you've grown tired of me. :) ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com =========================
Hubris Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.10.19 22:14:00 - [43] i am so outraged by this CSM and its level of corruption because of mazzilliu. I put all the data into this graph and as you can see the level of corruption is growing and spiraling out of control in direct relation to how many posts mazzilliu makes in this forum. It will be SO out of control that CCP will no longer be able to control the csm reps. They will build mazzilliu a throne room with a niffty gold chair, that has massage built in even!!!! CCP employees will be forced to bring mazzilliu offerings of pineapples, brandy and icecream. Or face mazzilliu's wrath. I may have to create a totally new thread so we can really get to the bottom of this and get rid of mazzilliu forever. Or the spiral may continue and engulf all of eve. The repercussions of this could cause tens of thousands of people (in real life) to only give up and down thumbs as answers. Then because some gangs may think they are throwing gang signs the gangs will "cap them in their nerdy asses". I for one do not want to get a capped in my nerdy ass. SO SUPPORT THIS NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! . - uncensored eve discussion and battle reports www.BattleDB.com
Dianeces The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.10.19 22:58:00 - [44] Originally by: Drake Draconis Looks like PL has become the new Goonswarm... heh. Welcome to a year and a half ago. I don't want to upset you, but nanos are going to get nerfed. :(
Captain Thunk Sniggerdly	Posted - 2009.10.19 23:28:00 - [45] Originally by: Dirty Wizard Somehow this "issue", despite receiving less than 1% thread support, made it onto the table with CCP. Isn't the whole purpose of the CSM Process to represent player interests and bringing them to CCP in an intelligent and structured presentation? Can anyone honestly say this CSM is speaking on the players behalf? Popularity has absolutely nothing to do with whether an idea is good or good for Eve. Bear in mind it was the playerbase that absolutely insisted to CCP by overwhelming popular support to have can flagging introduced to the game. They were warned what would happen but they demanded it. So it was introduced and the people that demanded it got blown up in hillariously comic fashion as a direct result. Also, if you had the courage of your convictions you wouldn't be posting on a 2 month old alt
Jason Edwards Internet Tough Guy	Posted - 2009.10.19 23:29:00 - [46] If you first realize the purpose of the csm. The point becomes fairly moot. CSM exists because of PR. Before the CSM... any issue unfixed for 3-5 years is BAD CCP. Now... WHY ISNT THE CSM DOING SOMETHING ABOUT THIS PROBLEM. BAD CSM. No point doing anything tbh. Just dont vote for mazz. csm voting should be soon. ------------------------ To make a megathron from scratch, you must first invent the eve universe. ------------------------ Life sucks and then you get podded.
Ben Derindar Dirty Deeds Corp.	Posted - 2009.10.20 00:56:00 - [47] I agree with the sentiment, but it's not the system at fault, it's the players who aren't using it to begin with that are. With only ~10% voter turnout to date, there's plenty of scope for you to make some friends of your own and vote for somebody else you like instead. /Ben
Dirty Wizard	Posted - 2009.10.20 03:06:00 - [48] Edited by: Dirty Wizard on 20/10/2009 03:06:35 Originally by: Captain Thunk Also, if you had the courage of your convictions you wouldn't be posting on a 2 month old alt The only motivation behind calling out an alt is to tailor personal attacks against them. I deprive you of this ammunition. And I find it a little humorous that most of the attacks in this thread stem from sniggerdly and PL. You guys mad? __________________________________ Want to help fix the CSM process? Show your support here.
Dianeces The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.10.20 03:32:00 - [49] Originally by: Dirty Wizard And I find it a little humorous that most of the attacks in this thread stem from sniggerdly and PL. You guys mad? we are v. mad because our grand plan to sieze control of the csm has been foiled by this very thread
mazzilliu Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.10.20 04:04:00 - [50] Edited by: mazzilliu on 20/10/2009 04:04:29 Originally by: Dianeces Originally by: Dirty Wizard And I find it a little humorous that most of the attacks in this thread stem from sniggerdly and PL. You guys mad? we are v. mad because our grand plan to sieze control of the csm has been foiled by this very thread posting legion. the posts made by PL are probably as genuine as those made by the OP(ridiculously genuine). also hubris's graph is the best. the mazzilliu throne room will be my next CSM proposal MAZZILLIU 2009. CHANGE I CAN IMPOSE ON YOU.
Dirty Wizard	Posted - 2009.10.20 04:14:00 - [51] Edited by: Dirty Wizard on 20/10/2009 04:15:46 Mazzilliu you do understand your incessant trolling makes the CSMs as a whole look bad, right? In all seriousness. Are you deliberately trying to tarnish the CSMs already battered public reputation? If so, it just further reinforces the need for reform. __________________________________ Want to help fix the CSM process? Show your support here.
mazzilliu Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.10.20 04:26:00 - [52] Originally by: Dirty Wizard Edited by: Dirty Wizard on 20/10/2009 04:15:46 Mazzilliu you do understand your incessant trolling makes the CSMs as a whole look bad, right? In all seriousness. Are you deliberately trying to tarnish the CSMs already battered public reputation? If so, it just further reinforces the need for reform. it's ok, i have hired an entire legion of poasting mercenaries to whitewash my legacy so history will remember me as the best csm to ever walk this space video game(and also a girl in real life(the best girl)). as for you, you should probably rum for csm and then raise this issue and disband it from the inside. a self destructing csm would be pretty funny MAZZILLIU 2009. CHANGE I CAN IMPOSE ON YOU.
Herschel Yamamoto Agent-Orange	Posted - 2009.10.20 04:52:00 - [53] Originally by: Dirty Wizard Mazzilliu you do understand your incessant trolling makes the CSMs as a whole look bad, right? In all seriousness. Are you deliberately trying to tarnish the CSMs already battered public reputation? If so, it just further reinforces the need for reform. Thing is, she's doing it on the Assembly Hall. We already know the dirty truth. Can the opinion people here have of the CSM really get any worse?
Dirty Wizard	Posted - 2009.10.20 04:52:00 - [54] Edited by: Dirty Wizard on 20/10/2009 04:55:28 Originally by: mazzilliu as for you, you should probably rum for csm and then raise this issue and disband it from the inside. a self destructing csm would be pretty funny First, I can never run for CSM as I am on active duty. Second, the purpose of this thread is NOT to destroy the CSM. To the contrary. The intended purpose of this thread is to bring reform with checks and balances so black sheep incidents like you and Larkonis never happen again. Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto Thing is, she's doing it on the Assembly Hall. We already know the dirty truth. Can the opinion people here have of the CSM really get any worse? Doubtful IMO. I can only wonder what's going through the heads of the other CSMs. __________________________________ Want to help fix the CSM process? Show your support here.
mazzilliu Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.10.20 05:00:00 - [55] Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto Originally by: Dirty Wizard Mazzilliu you do understand your incessant trolling makes the CSMs as a whole look bad, right? In all seriousness. Are you deliberately trying to tarnish the CSMs already battered public reputation? If so, it just further reinforces the need for reform. Thing is, she's doing it on the Assembly Hall. We already know the dirty truth. Can the opinion people here have of the CSM really get any worse? i dont think the opinion of the CSM in the assembly hall was ever positive. everywhere else(ingame, within corps, average eve players like joe the pirate, members of REAL EVE-MARICA) people seem a bit more chill about it but on eve-o even innocuous posts about the csm itself attract whining about the CSM like flies to poop. as such, i am trying to decide whether my fall campaign should be sarah palin themed or obama themed again and which will generate more whining. in before "it was all fine before MAZZ RUINED EVERYTHING" posts MAZZILLIU 2009. CHANGE I CAN IMPOSE ON YOU.
Issler Dainze Minmatar Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord	Posted - 2009.10.20 05:08:00 - [56] I can see where it would be easy (particularly after some of the CSM 3 actions) to become cynical about the CSM process. That said I think the solution lies in greater player participation. More and better candidates. Holding CCP and the CSM accountable for their actions (or inaction). Getting the word out in game to all the players that aren't in big alliances or associated with the 0.0 end game that they need to find a candidate to support. I don't have any connections to big alliances or 0.0 politics and represented just those players I just suggested should rally to become involved. I was elected to CSM 2 and got nearly 1000 votes in the last election despite RL time conflicts that prevented any real effort for election to CSM 3. (and thanks to Lark got to be in the CSM 3 anyways! ) So one thing I posted repeatedly last election was to really look at who you were voting for. I hope that the importance of that suggestions is now particularly clear! In at least two cases folks were elected that made it pretty clear that taking the job seriously wasn't really their focus. And you know what, they acted pretty much like they promised. So please consider being part of the solution to fix the problems you see in the CSM. Participate! Run! Or challenge candidates that have shown a lack of character or that have made the primary focus of their campaign the ownership of mammary glands. And get other people to do the same! The CSM is only as good as you choose to make it. I'm going to give this a "thumb", not so much to throw out the current process but as a call to action for all the pilots of Eve to join in making the CSM better! Issler
Argonis Valentio Senex Legio	Posted - 2009.10.20 09:09:00 - [57] Originally by: mazzilliu Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto Originally by: Dirty Wizard Mazzilliu you do understand your incessant trolling makes the CSMs as a whole look bad, right? In all seriousness. Are you deliberately trying to tarnish the CSMs already battered public reputation? If so, it just further reinforces the need for reform. Thing is, she's doing it on the Assembly Hall. We already know the dirty truth. Can the opinion people here have of the CSM really get any worse? i dont think the opinion of the CSM in the assembly hall was ever positive. everywhere else(ingame, within corps, average eve players like joe the pirate, members of REAL EVE-MARICA) people seem a bit more chill about it but on eve-o even innocuous posts about the csm itself attract whining about the CSM like flies to poop. as such, i am trying to decide whether my fall campaign should be sarah palin themed or obama themed again and which will generate more whining. in before "it was all fine before MAZZ RUINED EVERYTHING" posts You did ruin everything, EVE is a much worse place to live after the short reign of Mazzulliu. Just yesterday I heard a little Caldari boy quote, "Mazzilliu killed my mumma, puppa, brudahs and those other things. She stolez my c4ndi too." So I asked the little boy why she did those things, "Mazzilliu is da debbil, the pur3 eveel that be sh3 makes justece dead cold." There we have it people, the devil, the tyrant, the witch - Mazzilliu. On other news, Mazzilliu's reign of terror and suppression is over! crowd roars Anyway, I'm for disbanding CSM. I would like to disband CSM because CCP is not correct 100% of the time, and this is one of those times (just look at certificates LMFAO). I would also like to see CSM disbanded because its a clear separation of the classes and we can't have that, it would lead to possible discrimination, for example - Mazz is one of those Council of Sin Management delegates, or was! I will never associate with that CSMer! Yeah I believe I'm drunk, but hey! You have to put up with it yarr
Batolemaeus Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.10.20 10:45:00 - [58] Originally by: ThaDollaGenerale All I hear is bawwwwww What he said.
Captain Thunk Sniggerdly	Posted - 2009.10.20 11:51:00 - [59] Originally by: Dirty Wizard The only motivation behind calling out an alt is to tailor personal attacks against them. I deprive you of this ammunition. Your character Dirty Wizard has a long posting history in Assembly Hall, are you seriously saying you made a specific alt to post here while protecting your mains identity? Afraid of 'political assassinations'? The problem isn't with the CSM, it's with you taking ingame internet spaceship politics way too seriously. Whether you like it or not, being flown out to Iceland every now and then is a perk of being elected to what is a time consuming and volountary position. There's no actual need for CCP to do this, it's offered as an incentive to stand. Personally, I suspect your motives and your behaviour. It seems too much of a coincidence you've singled out Goons and PL for reform while trying to hide who you actually are behind an alt created specifically for this very purpose. The only motivation behind using an alt is to mask your own alliance based political affiliations.
HELIC0N ONE GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.10.20 11:52:00 - [60] waaaaaaaa why is the CSM not giving ME the RESPECT I DESERVE waaaaaaa (this thread owns)
Hun Jakuza 24th Imperial Guard	Posted - 2009.10.20 13:13:00 - [61] Originally by: Captain Thunk Originally by: Dirty Wizard The only motivation behind calling out an alt is to tailor personal attacks against them. I deprive you of this ammunition. Your character Dirty Wizard has a long posting history in Assembly Hall, are you seriously saying you made a specific alt to post here while protecting your mains identity? Afraid of 'political assassinations'? The problem isn't with the CSM, it's with you taking ingame internet spaceship politics way too seriously. Whether you like it or not, being flown out to Iceland every now and then is a perk of being elected to what is a time consuming and volountary position. There's no actual need for CCP to do this, it's offered as an incentive to stand. Personally, I suspect your motives and your behaviour. It seems too much of a coincidence you've singled out Goons and PL for reform while trying to hide who you actually are behind an alt created specifically for this very purpose. The only motivation behind using an alt is to mask your own alliance based political affiliations. Bring more man just cry on ventrillo. :D PL turning on so ridiculous.
Dirty Wizard	Posted - 2009.10.20 17:10:00 - [62] Originally by: Issler Dainze I can see where it would be easy (particularly after some of the CSM 3 actions) to become cynical about the CSM process. That said I think the solution lies in greater player participation. More and better candidates. Holding CCP and the CSM accountable for their actions (or inaction). Getting the word out in game to all the players that aren't in big alliances or associated with the 0.0 end game that they need to find a candidate to support. I'm all for this, but I see some problems right off the bat. The first is the method of accountability (or rather the lack thereof). Once a CSM gets their foot in the door, that's that. There is no mechanic for dealing with unruly and misbehaving CSMs. Other than breaking hard and fast NDA rules, there is no trigger that throws out these bad apples. No vote to dismiss, no impeach process, no behavioral review panel, nothing. If anything, this thread IS the closest thing we've got to such a mechanism. Kinda sad if one really takes it all in But it illustrates the point. We need such a tool so these incidents are prevented or dealt with in the future. The second problem is that the CSM is mostly a forum thing. Issues are here, discussion is here, voting is here. However we don't see any of this ingame. We're almost talking about two separate universes. The EvE forums and the EvE game. Most players ingame are only vaguely aware of the forums existence let alone what a CSM is. The forums seem to be looked upon as an outlet for trolls and hatemongers to spew their vitriol. It's hard to dispute that sometimes If the CSM is to garner any sort of greater player awareness, tools and mechanisms will have to be introduced into the game. Spreading the CSMs existence by word of mouth simply isn't enough. __________________________________ Want to help fix the CSM process? Show your support here.
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre REIGN Alliance	Posted - 2009.10.20 17:31:00 - [63] Edited by: Drake Draconis on 20/10/2009 17:33:37 Top that off with the fact that there pathetic excuse of "well run for CSM then if you don't like it" is no longer valid. Based on the fact that only there stupid excuse of a posse would practicually garuentee the said idiot getting reelected. As I've said... I might be able to make it past the front door... but then I'd be rendered useless every time I shot down an idiot CSM... because I'd be out gunned and out numbered. I get that we don't know everything that's going on. I get that there is more to the CSM than we know. But that will not excuse the fact that the flagrant behavior on these forums in total lack of respect and trolling by CSM itself... with there posse gangs making these boards turn into the COAD or worse yet the C&P would effectively make it a total waste of time to bother running for CSM. As I would only be a drop in the perverse pond of foolishness... even with ripples... wouldn't do much to change the situation. Only CCP would be able to slap them around... Even with people who don' entirely like me have already indicated to me they would vote for me... I haven't figure out whether they are joking... or if there serious. And as I've indicated before... I'm not convinced it would amount to a hill of beans when you got that ####### <points at Mazz> going on and embarrassing the entire goal and image of CSM itself. The whole purpose of the CSM is no longer valid... all I see the CSM doing is ignoring the bulk of us... sitting there twiddling there thumbs and keeping quite... ex members (reputable or not) are doing more work than the current term.. and even they are apparently embarrassed. Maybe I should start dragging people in here... but then they would have no bloody idea what was going on because only less than 10% even give a damn. And in the end they would conclude that participating is nothing short a waste of time short of discussing ideas. Maybe its time I move to features and Ideas because I'm growing tired of the foul stench that floods these boards.... and I can assure you... it's not coming from (dare I say) my party of participation... There is literally no more point to assembly hall itself or jita park if the CSM is in its current form is free to do as they please. Why bother discussing and pushing issues if they are likely to ignore you and do there own thing? That alone should make everyone with half a brain rather mad. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com =========================
Fille Balle Ballbreakers R us	Posted - 2009.10.20 21:09:00 - [64] Originally by: Drake Draconis You serious? I'd figure you've grown tired of me. :) Far from it. I think I'm getting used to you, thus I now understand better how you think. You've grown on me. Anyho, due to recent events, I'm considering wether this might not be such a bad idea after all.
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre REIGN Alliance	Posted - 2009.10.20 21:16:00 - [65] Originally by: Fille Balle Originally by: Drake Draconis You serious? I'd figure you've grown tired of me. :) Far from it. I think I'm getting used to you, thus I now understand better how you think. You've grown on me. Anyho, due to recent events, I'm considering wether this might not be such a bad idea after all. o7 We'll need to chat in game some time... :) ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com =========================
CommanderData211	Posted - 2009.10.20 21:20:00 - [66] I can't support this thread because you are growing on me too Drake. I may not agree with some of the specifics you lay down in terms of fixes and tweaks, and at times I feel like you shoot down ideas that you feel frivolous but might be fun, but I know that you love this game. I have a feeling that you would do everything in your power to improve the game to the best of your ability. That being said, you don't choose the fights you can win, you fight the fights that need fighting.
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre REIGN Alliance	Posted - 2009.10.20 21:49:00 - [67] Originally by: CommanderData211 I can't support this thread because you are growing on me too Drake. I may not agree with some of the specifics you lay down in terms of fixes and tweaks, and at times I feel like you shoot down ideas that you feel frivolous but might be fun, but I know that you love this game. I have a feeling that you would do everything in your power to improve the game to the best of your ability. That being said, you don't choose the fights you can win, you fight the fights that need fighting. It is one thing to disagree with someone with a valid reason. It's an another to do so like a child and troll/insult/mock/ignore/stupidly go forth like a moron. Yes I'm agressive that way... but I tend to respect peoples position. For example... I have nothing personal agianst Mazz or Lark... I do take insult however with the spitting they have done on the very idea of what CSM is.. and when they come walking in here with the holier than thou atitude with a track record that shows nothing but trash for what they have to prove for it... that's an entirely different issue. Lark violated a real life contractual agreement called a non-disclosure agreement... usually (at least in my knowledge) that results in getting sued/fined/charged criminally for causing damage to a working business... he's damn lucky what CCP did was all they did... they where well within there right to let him have it with everything they got. Take the time to read the legalese and you'd be surprised... NDA's are no laughing matter... and he took it lightly obviously. Mazz... "Miss I got's boobs" and "tons of alt's" with the entirety of the pandemic legion (whom I referr to as the Neo-goonswarm now) goes forth in the guise of working for the better of EVE... and then pushes a very suspicous "we need longer terms" proposal and at 3 to ???-133/200 (obviously a hell of a lot more than 3) it gets passed by CSM without hesitation or consideration of public opinion and then pushed on to CCP whom I hope will likely shoot it down for the obvious lack of common sense.... but even then we don't know as CCP tends to keep to itself! The point is not a matter of what the CSM does or how. It's who they represent. they excuse there actions for "then run for office" when in fact they know that very little to no participation in the game population will result in changing the status quo. So whose the fool now? That would be us... the overall public at the mercy of a bunch of egotistical asshats. THAT... I wager is far worse than what ever I could come up with! Am I mad? Yes... I voted... I payed for this game... I plan to use what was given to me to my fullest extent... including my expressing an opinion. The CSM has great potential... but there must be some changes to how they do business... or it should be terminated... immediately. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com =========================
Dirty Wizard	Posted - 2009.10.20 23:25:00 - [68] Edited by: Dirty Wizard on 20/10/2009 23:35:59 I'm curious to see which CSM(s) have the moral fiber to bring this issue to the next upcoming meeting: CSM 3 Meeting 10 - Sunday October 25th 16:00 Granted it's not a week old, but the very nature of this thread and the recent misbehavior of a CSM member warrants an exception. To ignore or delay this issue will only cause further resentment towards the CSM process. __________________________________ Want to help fix the CSM process? Show your support here.
Mynxee Minmatar Hellcats The Bastards.	Posted - 2009.10.20 23:40:00 - [69] Originally by: Drake Draconis The CSM has great potential... but there must be some changes to how they do business... I agree, their operational processes and practices need revamped. That won't stop idiots from acting like idiots, though. True colors always shine through, whatever their root cause (lack of maturity, inexperience, or just not giving a **). Before you throw the baby out with the bathwater, keep in mind that the worst behavior we've seen from CSM delegates has come from a tiny minority of their members. The vast majority have conducted themselves admirably--at least as far as we can tell from their behavior on the forums here and in meeting chat logs. Got to give credit where it's due. Originally by:** Drake Draconis or it should be terminated... immediately. Disagree with you on that one, hence no thumbs up from me for your idea as a whole. One thing that would mitigate asshattery would be for CCP to give players the ability to impeach a CSM candidate who acted like a total **. Related to that, the whole CSM process needs more participation (i.e., voting, competing for seats, and participating in the CSM forums) from the playerbase--ideas for which I've been internally brainstorming about quite a bit recently. Bump It! \| My Blog: Life in Low Sec**
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre REIGN Alliance	Posted - 2009.10.20 23:46:00 - [70] Edited by: Drake Draconis on 20/10/2009 23:47:00 Originally by: Mynxee Originally by: Drake Draconis The CSM has great potential... but there must be some changes to how they do business... I agree, their operational processes and practices need revamped. That won't stop idiots from acting like idiots, though. True colors always shine through, whatever their root cause (lack of maturity, inexperience, or just not giving a **). Before you throw the baby out with the bathwater, keep in mind that the worst behavior we've seen from CSM delegates has come from a tiny minority of their members. The vast majority have conducted themselves admirably--at least as far as we can tell from their behavior on the forums here and in meeting chat logs. Got to give credit where it's due. Originally by:** Drake Draconis or it should be terminated... immediately. Disagree with you on that one, hence no thumbs up from me for your idea as a whole. One thing that would mitigate asshattery would be for CCP to give players the ability to impeach a CSM candidate who acted like a total ****. Related to that, the whole CSM process needs more participation (i.e., voting, competing for seats, and participating in the CSM forums) from the playerbase--ideas for which I've been internally brainstorming about quite a bit recently. In response to the termination statement... yes... that was a bit extreme... but you got one major question here... what is the point if there is no check sum system? Why bother at all if this is all we are going to get? To implement a checksum requires an unbiased (if you wana call it that) party... unfortunately that means CCP whom moderates anyway... I'm not so sure if they would even go that far. At that rate CCP is better off having a dedicated team to sit here on the forums and just chat things up... not likely to happen... hell the CSM will never go away at this rate. Don't mean we all cant make a ruckus about it. But you do have valid points none-the-less. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com =========================
Mynxee Minmatar Hellcats The Bastards.	Posted - 2009.10.21 00:38:00 - [71] Originally by: Drake Draconis what is the point if there is no check sum system? Why bother at all if this is all we are going to get? Because I believe that the type of CSM delegate who gets elected--and the efficacy of the CSM itself--will evolve toward a more idea form over time (no guarantee there won't be an occasional mutant, though!), assuming those of us with sufficient interest in how that could happen keep talking, do our part to encourage more players to participate, and step up ourselves when we can. You ought to run for CSM5. If we both got elected, it could be fun to see what you're like in RL given your energetic opinions here. Bump It! \| My Blog: Life in Low Sec
Omber Zombie Gallente Frontier Technologies	Posted - 2009.10.21 01:19:00 - [72] Quote: exceptions, regardless of the infraction. representatives are not only expected to uphold the social contract that all society members are held accountable to, but should also set a behavior standard for everyone else to follow. from here go sick ---------------------- My Blog
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre REIGN Alliance	Posted - 2009.10.21 01:25:00 - [73] Originally by: Mynxee Originally by: Drake Draconis what is the point if there is no check sum system? Why bother at all if this is all we are going to get? Because I believe that the type of CSM delegate who gets elected--and the efficacy of the CSM itself--will evolve toward a more idea form over time (no guarantee there won't be an occasional mutant, though!), assuming those of us with sufficient interest in how that could happen keep talking, do our part to encourage more players to participate, and step up ourselves when we can. You ought to run for CSM5. If we both got elected, it could be fun to see what you're like in RL given your energetic opinions here. Heh... you might be disappointed as I tend to be more mentally active than I am vocally.. unless there's a good discussion. If anything CSM may very well result in me calming down a bit for fear of getting my ass handed to me by my peers. X) ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com =========================
Larkonis TrassIer Neo Spartans Laconian Syndicate	Posted - 2009.10.21 01:30:00 - [74] Originally by: Drake Draconis In response to the termination statement... yes... that was a bit extreme... but you got one major question here... what is the point if there is no check sum system? Why bother at all if this is all we are going to get? To implement a checksum requires an unbiased (if you wana call it that) party... unfortunately that means CCP whom moderates anyway... I'm not so sure if they would even go that far. At that rate CCP is better off having a dedicated team to sit here on the forums and just chat things up... not likely to happen... hell the CSM will never go away at this rate. Don't mean we all cant make a ruckus about it. But you do have valid points none-the-less. The system is less than 18 months old. If you expect it to be perfect right off the bat then you're deluded. As awareness grows and more people become aware of the process and get involved hopefully then you will have your 'check sum'.
Argonis Valentio Senex Legio	Posted - 2009.10.21 04:18:00 - [75] Originally by: Larkonis TrassIer Originally by: Drake Draconis In response to the termination statement... yes... that was a bit extreme... but you got one major question here... what is the point if there is no check sum system? Why bother at all if this is all we are going to get? To implement a checksum requires an unbiased (if you wana call it that) party... unfortunately that means CCP whom moderates anyway... I'm not so sure if they would even go that far. At that rate CCP is better off having a dedicated team to sit here on the forums and just chat things up... not likely to happen... hell the CSM will never go away at this rate. Don't mean we all cant make a ruckus about it. But you do have valid points none-the-less. The system is less than 18 months old. If you expect it to be perfect right off the bat then you're deluded. As awareness grows and more people become aware of the process and get involved hopefully then you will have your 'check sum'. You will actually find, according to the data CCP recorded from CSM voting, that the voting awareness and committment of the player base is dropping rather than increasing, or perhaps is simply stagnant. CSM 1 = 10%, 2 = 8%, 3 = 9%
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre REIGN Alliance	Posted - 2009.10.21 05:09:00 - [76] How bout that... sounds like CSM is driving away the interest. Go figure. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com =========================
sakana North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.10.21 11:15:00 - [77] Originally by: Drake Draconis Looks like PL has become the new Goonswarm... heh. hey man 2008 called, he's says he's been there and done that.
Dramaticus GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.10.21 15:19:00 - [78] id say the CSM has done pretty well despite being saddled with people like jade and women(that was redundant i guess) Please don't use RL pictuers of players in Sig without permission. - WeatherMan
Dirty Wizard	Posted - 2009.10.22 03:33:00 - [79] Originally by: sakana Originally by: Drake Draconis Looks like PL has become the new Goonswarm... heh. hey man 2008 called, he's says he's been there and done that. It was never this threads intention to insult, take shots, sling mud, or imply negative connotations about PL and the Goons. We're talking about one CSM who was thrown out and another who is misbehaving badly (who just happens to be a member of PL). The only reason the Goons were mentioned is because of their guaranteed multiple seats on the CSM due to their voting muscle. Let's keep things in perspective. It's an issue about lack of CSM oversight by CCP. It's an issue when a CSM member(s) can continue to misbehave so badly yet the playerbase has no mechanic or recourse to throw them out. It's an issue when a CSM forcefully pushes ahead issues so unpopular that the playerbase reacts with such anger. Issues which common sense dictates should have never been given a second glance. It's an issue about entire alliances flexing their voting muscle to keep clowns like these in office who clearly have no business being there. This thread isn't going away anytime soon. Sure it may fill to thread capacity, but other threads similar to this one are already starting. This cannot go unaddressed for much longer. __________________________________ Want to help fix the CSM process? Show your support here.
Argonis Valentio Senex Legio	Posted - 2009.10.22 11:16:00 - [80] I beg to differ! CCP have a super power up their sleeve. That super power is......drum roll.....the power to ignore you indefinitely! This issue has been addressed time and time again. The petitioning process requires persistent spamming, whining, crying, *****ing, more whining and more crying before you finally get a proper response. I have said time and time again, if CCP felt that it had to do something or that it wanted to do something, it could and with great effect and to great lengths. Very few topics are monitored by the GM's and I think that you may very well need to hit report a few thousand times before it happens. FYI, try hitting report on this message and see if something happens to this thread for once xD.
Dirty Wizard	Posted - 2009.10.23 16:23:00 - [81] Originally by: Larkonis TrassIer The system is less than 18 months old. If you expect it to be perfect right off the bat then you're deluded. As awareness grows and more people become aware of the process and get involved hopefully then you will have your 'check sum'. Of course it's not perfect. After all we've seen so far as of late, it's nowhere near perfect. Improvements are still badly needed and they won't happen unless CCP steps in and intervenes. The CSMs have already demonstrated they cannot conduct themselves accordingly. They cannot be expected to police themselves. __________________________________ Want to help fix the CSM process? Show your support here.
Hubris Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.10.23 17:47:00 - [82] Originally by: Dirty Wizard Originally by: sakana Originally by: Drake Draconis Looks like PL has become the new Goonswarm... heh. hey man 2008 called, he's says he's been there and done that. It was never this threads intention to insult, take shots, sling mud, or imply negative connotations about PL and the Goons. We're talking about one CSM who was thrown out and another who is misbehaving badly (who just happens to be a member of PL). The only reason the Goons were mentioned is because of their guaranteed multiple seats on the CSM due to their voting muscle. Let's keep things in perspective. It's an issue about lack of CSM oversight by CCP. It's an issue when a CSM member(s) can continue to misbehave so badly yet the playerbase has no mechanic or recourse to throw them out. It's an issue when a CSM forcefully pushes ahead issues so unpopular that the playerbase reacts with such anger. Issues which common sense dictates should have never been given a second glance. It's an issue about entire alliances flexing their voting muscle to keep clowns like these in office who clearly have no business being there. This thread isn't going away anytime soon. Sure it may fill to thread capacity, but other threads similar to this one are already starting. This cannot go unaddressed for much longer. wow i thought this and threads like it are all about how easy it is to troll people in this forum section. Thank you for clarifying this. ITS SERIOUS BUSINESS!!!!!!!!!! lol. - uncensored eve discussion and battle reports www.BattleDB.com
Traidor Disloyal Private Nuisance	Posted - 2009.10.23 19:40:00 - [83] The CSM is a joke (needs more clown). It's not worth the toilet paper it was created on. ************************************************* I have three characters. One has Cov Ops V along with all the bells and whistles that goes with it.
Exie Phantasmal Collective Vanguard.	Posted - 2009.10.26 22:11:00 - [84] Um we do have a recourse, do not vote them back in!!! SHOKANAWE Seriously, it is all about participation, if you don't like what you see, then run for none of the above. E... We be Jammin'
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre REIGN Alliance	Posted - 2009.10.26 22:14:00 - [85] Originally by: Exie Um we do have a recourse, do not vote them back in!!! SHOKANAWE Seriously, it is all about participation, if you don't like what you see, then run for none of the above. There's only one problem with that kind of mentality... which makes Pandemic Legions excuse (run for office) bull crap. By voting for none of the above if at all.. it doesn't stop asshats from being re-elected by there own bloody alliance/mob. Minor detail to be sure.. but a valid one at that. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com =========================
Dianeces The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.10.27 02:51:00 - [86] Originally by: Drake Draconis There's only one problem with that kind of mentality... which makes Pandemic Legions excuse (run for office) bull crap. Yeah, man. We're totally the only ones telling you to do that.
Dirty Wizard	Posted - 2009.10.29 05:39:00 - [87] Well, if Mazz was just crying out for attention, I think she got it. Just heard the latest Channel Massive podcast and this whole business of CSM issues for sale was mentioned. Another dark spot on the CSMs already tarnished reputation. __________________________________ Want to help fix the CSM process? Show your support here.
LO'''''''''''''''''''''L Robber Barons Inc. Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.10.29 12:46:00 - [88] Originally by: Dirty Wizard Well, if Mazz was just crying out for attention, I think she got it. Just heard the latest Channel Massive podcast and this whole business of CSM issues for sale was mentioned. Another dark spot on the CSMs already tarnished reputation. haha wow. i've never heard of this channel massive podcast before but apparently someone with my name submitted a lead to the story? i downloaded it and finally found the bit, i lol'ed (mazz's alt) ___________ PROUD MEMBER OF ROBBER BARONS INC.
Tiny Tove	Posted - 2009.10.29 16:05:00 - [89] One only has to compare Votes Cast against Accounts Subscribed to realise that damm near nobody gives a flying fig about the CSM or their fevered egos. You can automate the role of CSM we have now. It's called a Forum Poll. Everybody else has had them for a decade. Give us the CSM we were originally promised, and stop charging us money for this weak talking shop that we can't do anything about. --- WTB: Unwritten Forum Rules and list of posters you're not allowed to Report.
Fenris Ulfur Bio Material Inc	Posted - 2010.01.27 16:42:00 - [90] Well this is disturbing to say the least. After doing a search on EVE-Search for the whole issue of Larkonisgate, after reading this dev blog here, just to get a better idea of what happened I found this thread and having a bit of time on my hands and a fresh cup of coffee I decided to go against my own judgement and read the forums for once. First of I like the idea of the CSM. Its a whole new twist on the issue of Game designer vs the Player base and something that makes me proud of CCP (being an Icelander I have the same chronic sickness as the rest of the country). But like Dirty Wizard says and then Mazzilliu clearly confirms is that the CSM is broken. The CSM is not broken because the large alliances have representatives in the council. It is understandable that the largest bodies of players that have grouped themselves together vote for a player within their own alliance. This mirrors what happens in real life, you vote for the person that can best represent your views and ideas. And as the council says at c.a 35 minutes into the video here they are able to agree on issues concerning High, low and zero sec play styles (9/0 vote on something concerning missions at 36 min into the above video). No the reason the CSM is broken is that it allows a whole seat (or more) to be occupied by a player that clearly has no real drive to be in the CSM (Mazzilliu). She acts like a little kid in a school yard trying to act cool and tough against well written and thought out concerns, about the issues/ideas that the CSM is spending their time talking about, instead of acting like a representative of the players and taking her position seriously and with a little pride. I have no ounce of fear regarding if CCP will allow the change Mazzilliu suggested and the council voted on and passed, by a margin of 1 vote mind you, to get implemented because every individual can see the potential for misuse. The CSM is not a council that can impose its will on CCP. This they have said many times. But I guess that having the longest possible term only 1 year, to weed out those who do not deserve to be there, would only limit the use of those council members that actually do take their position with pride and realize what kind of unique position they are in. And having a longer term (+1 year) would only create a larger possibility for individuals that think the CSM is a joke to get elected repeatedly by those who share their narrow mindedness. And how would CCP ever promote the idea of democracy to the players if they would simply kick out those CSM members that are obviously not doing their job correctly. Even if the reasons were sound they would still be going against the principles that are the cornerstones of the CSM. This, it would seem, shows the flaw of democracy. But I still endorse what CCP is doing with the CSM and since this is the first time anything like this has been done before it is understandable that there will be some bumps along the way trying to get it right. I only hope that CCP will create a better venue for the player base to both see each candidate's list of ideas/issues and to vote for the candidate they feel best represents them. I can honestly say that I did not vote in the first two CSM's because of the difficulty to accurately find information on the candidates. --------------------------------------------------------------------- "But rather than that you question my courage, let someone put his hand in my mouth as a pledge that this is done in good faith"
Aynen	Posted - 2010.01.27 18:52:00 - [91] Just for the sake of argument, and 'food for thought', what if the CSM wasn't a democratic system but a form of isocrazy. (a system where every individual has equal ruling power) This would play itself out (in theory) as follows: Through a series of questions, issues raised, surveys, etc. available from inside the game every player can voice his/her opinion and the results go directly to CCP's analists, bypassing a councel. This makes the whole councel absolete, and the only data available to CCP would be scientific data. The only people analyzing the data would be people with Phd's in statistics and whathaveyou. Any player can create a survey question, and any player can answer survey questions. The analists pass on the survey results to CCP's game designers and they figure out how to turn that into game adjustments. In that system there's very little room for corruption, and the 'tyrany of the majority' doesn't apply either because game designers have the final call, not the majority. Your thoughts?
Syringe Incura	Posted - 2010.01.27 19:15:00 - [92] Originally by: Aynen Just for the sake of argument, and 'food for thought', what if the CSM wasn't a democratic system but a form of isocrazy. (a system where every individual has equal ruling power) This would play itself out (in theory) as follows: Through a series of questions, issues raised, surveys, etc. available from inside the game every player can voice his/her opinion and the results go directly to CCP's analists, bypassing a councel. This makes the whole councel absolete, and the only data available to CCP would be scientific data. The only people analyzing the data would be people with Phd's in statistics and whathaveyou. Any player can create a survey question, and any player can answer survey questions. The analists pass on the survey results to CCP's game designers and they figure out how to turn that into game adjustments. In that system there's very little room for corruption, and the 'tyrany of the majority' doesn't apply either because game designers have the final call, not the majority. Your thoughts? Sounds an awful lot like "design-by-committee". I don't know if you've ever been down that road, but it's not pretty. --------- War isn't the answer. However, the objective isn't to provide answers rather than eliminate the question.
Aynen	Posted - 2010.01.27 19:21:00 - [93] Originally by: Syringe Sounds an awful lot like "design-by-committee". I don't know if you've ever been down that road, but it's not pretty. Not really what I ment. It's not like majority rules, in the end the game designers make all the game design desissions, it's just that the filtering system between the players and CCP is less corrupt this way.
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre Looney Toons.	Posted - 2010.01.27 21:23:00 - [94] We need a CSM that's accountable for there actions... No CSM is worse. Current CSM "system" is an insult but its better than nothing. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com =========================
Aynen	Posted - 2010.01.27 23:18:00 - [95] Originally by: Drake Draconis We need a CSM that's accountable for there actions... No CSM is worse. Current CSM "system" is an insult but its better than nothing. I think some accountability could improve the current system, but how do you execute it?
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre Looney Toons.	Posted - 2010.01.27 23:22:00 - [96] If I knew the answer to that question I'd come up with it. For starters... these cannidates only get in with there massive alliance posse's backing them. Not all CSM's are elected this way... but anyone in goonswarm... PL.... or any other others... are likely to win either way. So player participation is a big problem as a result. But who keeps CSM in check when they go about there business? Don't know how to solve that problem. And that's just the tip of the iceberg. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com =========================
Aynen	Posted - 2010.01.28 00:52:00 - [97] Originally by: Drake Draconis If I knew the answer to that question I'd come up with it. For starters... these cannidates only get in with there massive alliance posse's backing them. Not all CSM's are elected this way... but anyone in goonswarm... PL.... or any other others... are likely to win either way. So player participation is a big problem as a result. But who keeps CSM in check when they go about there business? Don't know how to solve that problem. And that's just the tip of the iceberg. I suppose the problem would be reduced if people could not vote on a member of their own alliance. This ofcourse brings forth a host of other problems, but it might still be worth it.
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre Looney Toons.	Posted - 2010.01.28 01:06:00 - [98] Originally by: Aynen Originally by: Drake Draconis If I knew the answer to that question I'd come up with it. For starters... these cannidates only get in with there massive alliance posse's backing them. Not all CSM's are elected this way... but anyone in goonswarm... PL.... or any other others... are likely to win either way. So player participation is a big problem as a result. But who keeps CSM in check when they go about there business? Don't know how to solve that problem. And that's just the tip of the iceberg. I suppose the problem would be reduced if people could not vote on a member of their own alliance. This of course brings forth a host of other problems, but it might still be worth it. I thought about that... but then the REALLY good people who have large alliances backing them would be cut off as well. Nasty pickle to be sure. You should start a different thread about this... this thread is not what I call a good way of discussing the CSM troubles. As I think disbanding them is a baaaad idea. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com =========================
Larkonis TrassIer Neo Spartans Laconian Syndicate	Posted - 2010.01.28 01:10:00 - [99]
KAT3	Posted - 2010.01.28 02:00:00 - [100] Edited by: KAT3 on 28/01/2010 02:02:19 Edited by: KAT3 on 28/01/2010 02:01:38 The only accountability an elected CMS representative or any elected official has is to the ballot box. Likewise, the only tool the membership has is to exercise their voice and approval or disapproval thru the ballot box. I understand all the issues and concerns laid out from not enough information on canditates, to large alliances casting majority votes for their pet member, to the memberships' inability to do anything about the poor performance of an elected CMS representative. The process however, is like any other democratic process, and unless the membership really gets involved, these problems will not be mitigated. I would concentrate more on the election process and attempting to better inform and motivate the member base. They need to feel comfortable that they have the information they need to place an educated vote for a particular candidate to represent them, and motivated that their representatives and the CMS system will repond as intended -- on behalf of the membership base.
Aynen	Posted - 2010.01.28 08:15:00 - [101] Originally by: Drake Draconis Originally by: Aynen I suppose the problem would be reduced if people could not vote on a member of their own alliance. This of course brings forth a host of other problems, but it might still be worth it. I thought about that... but then the REALLY good people who have large alliances backing them would be cut off as well. Nasty pickle to be sure. You should start a different thread about this... this thread is not what I call a good way of discussing the CSM troubles. As I think disbanding them is a baaaad idea. Well, as I said a couple of posts ago, I actually feel that taking the human factor of the CSM out of the picture is what'll fix our problems. It wouldn't really be a csm anymore though. Just give players the ability to get their opinions directly to CCP in the form of survey results and you won't need a CSM.
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre Looney Toons.	Posted - 2010.01.28 15:39:00 - [102] You can never take the human factor out of any group of people. CCP included. The fact this is a democractic process is a insult in itself. Democracy implies people are discerning enough to know the difference between good and bad... in the end all a democratic process gets you is a popularity stunt. Like it is in real life.... which doesn't really matter a whole heck of a lot even today. (Thank you oh so very much college electoral) Such things translate to the current CSM... you have a "democratic" process of election (note the quote marks ;) ) and then you look at who really votes? Therein is your problem. I didn't vote last time around because A: I was very tired and lazy. B: I had no incentive to vote let alone lift a damn finger because I was so **ed off at Mazz and Lark for the bull** stunt they pulled. People are going to react just like I did.... Why bother? Why should they vote when its a laughing stock? We are just single individual pilots... how many votes will it take before someone can make a difference? In the end... its a futile gesture to even vote. Fix that problem... and you'll get somewhere. Give the people an incentive to vote. (NO not bribing : O P ) ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com =========================
Aynen	Posted - 2010.01.28 15:58:00 - [103] Originally by: Drake Draconis You can never take the human factor out of any group of people. CCP included. The fact this is a democractic process is a insult in itself. Democracy implies people are discerning enough to know the difference between good and bad... in the end all a democratic process gets you is a popularity stunt. Like it is in real life.... which doesn't really matter a whole heck of a lot even today. (Thank you oh so very much college electoral) Such things translate to the current CSM... you have a "democratic" process of election (note the quote marks ;) ) and then you look at who really votes? Therein is your problem. I didn't vote last time around because A: I was very tired and lazy. B: I had no incentive to vote let alone lift a damn finger because I was so **ed off at Mazz and Lark for the bull** stunt they pulled. People are going to react just like I did.... Why bother? Why should they vote when its a laughing stock? We are just single individual pilots... how many votes will it take before someone can make a difference? In the end... its a futile gesture to even vote. Fix that problem... and you'll get somewhere. Give the people an incentive to vote. (NO not bribing : O P ) In the system I propose there would be no need for voting, because there is no CSM.
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre Looney Toons.	Posted - 2010.01.28 16:03:00 - [104] Granted... but no CSM is worse. We need gamers who are discerning enough to relay problems and ideas to CCP. Making them listen to potentially 50 to 60 thousand pilots is not what I call a smart move. Committee or not... the CSM is nice for that particular problem. However... the individuals who are put in the CSM.... well.. perhaps its time we inflict more qualifications and less grandstanding. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com =========================
Aynen	Posted - 2010.01.28 16:08:00 - [105] Originally by: Drake Draconis Granted... but no CSM is worse. We need gamers who are discerning enough to relay problems and ideas to CCP. Making them listen to potentially 50 to 60 thousand pilots is not what I call a smart move. Committee or not... the CSM is nice for that particular problem. However... the individuals who are put in the CSM.... well.. perhaps its time we inflict more qualifications and less grandstanding. I reckon you'll always run into the corruption problem in any electoral system. You could have CCP hire PhD's in psychology/gamedesign/politics to form a permanent CSM which might reduce the problem, but that's pretty close to what I'm saying, minus the survey tools which I think a permanent CSM made up of educated people would opt for anyway.
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre Looney Toons.	Posted - 2010.01.28 16:11:00 - [106] I honestly doubt a PhD let alone a bloody psychiatrist is going to know anything about EVE Online to be quite honest. The people who get hired to do the job should be unbiased seasoned eve pilots. Good luck finding that. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com =========================
Aynen	Posted - 2010.01.28 16:14:00 - [107] Originally by: Drake Draconis I honestly doubt a PhD let alone a bloody psychiatrist is going to know anything about EVE Online to be quite honest. The people who get hired to do the job should be unbiased seasoned eve pilots. Good luck finding that. I disagree, the permanent CSM would only be 'relaying the messege'. They're there to figure out what people want, not how to give it to them, that's up to CCP's game designers. I'd imagine the permanent CSM are statisticians, and psychologists who know how to set up surveys and how to analyze them.
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre Looney Toons.	Posted - 2010.01.28 17:18:00 - [108] Originally by: Aynen Originally by: Drake Draconis I honestly doubt a PhD let alone a bloody psychiatrist is going to know anything about EVE Online to be quite honest. The people who get hired to do the job should be unbiased seasoned eve pilots. Good luck finding that. I disagree, the permanent CSM would only be 'relaying the messege'. They're there to figure out what people want, not how to give it to them, that's up to CCP's game designers. I'd imagine the permanent CSM are statisticians, and psychologists who know how to set up surveys and how to analyze them. Think about what you just said. Who would you rather deliever the message... someone who understands and has done whatever the hell it is your doing? We don't need to be pyschoanalyzed and share our problems while lying on a couch. We need people who play this game on a frequent basis... people who understand the mechanics and day to day struggles in working around the problems and trying to come up with solutions. People who have no agenda and not interested in grandstanding or getting a free trip to fanfest and don't give a crap about us. Getting some PHD or some psycho to listen to us is a total waste of time. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com =========================
Aynen	Posted - 2010.01.28 17:57:00 - [109] Originally by: Drake Draconis Think about what you just said. Who would you rather deliever the message... someone who understands and has done whatever the hell it is your doing? We don't need to be pyschoanalyzed and share our problems while lying on a couch. We need people who play this game on a frequent basis... people who understand the mechanics and day to day struggles in working around the problems and trying to come up with solutions. People who have no agenda and not interested in grandstanding or getting a free trip to fanfest and don't give a crap about us. Getting some PHD or some psycho to listen to us is a total waste of time. The people relaying the messege really have no need for playing experience, the designers who decide what to do with the data however, do. I consider it a mistake that CSM members see themselves as needing to know what fixes player's problems. That's gamedesign, not the task of a representative of the people. A representative needs to know how to listen. And people who have surveys and statistical analysis in their trackrecord of education can do so.
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre Looney Toons.	Posted - 2010.01.28 19:00:00 - [110] Edited by: Drake Draconis on 28/01/2010 19:00:18 Originally by: Aynen Originally by: Drake Draconis Think about what you just said. Who would you rather deliever the message... someone who understands and has done whatever the hell it is your doing? We don't need to be pyschoanalyzed and share our problems while lying on a couch. We need people who play this game on a frequent basis... people who understand the mechanics and day to day struggles in working around the problems and trying to come up with solutions. People who have no agenda and not interested in grandstanding or getting a free trip to fanfest and don't give a crap about us. Getting some PHD or some psycho to listen to us is a total waste of time. The people relaying the messege really have no need for playing experience, the designers who decide what to do with the data however, do. I consider it a mistake that CSM members see themselves as needing to know what fixes player's problems. That's gamedesign, not the task of a representative of the people. A representative needs to know how to listen. And people who have surveys and statistical analysis in their trackrecord of education can do so. Alright let me attempt to explain what I mean. I work for a computer shop.... I sell PC's... and Mac's. I also fix them... I'm a certified tech... a professional Apple Care technician to boot. Wouldn't you rather talk to the Tech who fixes them.... as far as purchasing a computer... as opposed to some punk sales kid who's more interested in getting a commission check? Who would you trust more? EVE is its own world... its own culture. You try to explain EVE to some average joe who plays WOW and they are going to go glossy eyed. I would expect the same for some random PHD or some such. Bottom line - EVE is like its own langauge... if you don't speak it... know it... fluently... hireing a translator is going to be foolish. I do not want some random Joe to handle the critical process of collecting and coalating data for CCP when it comes to critical matters such as lag.... or skill injections... or super-capital ships. I would rather have someone who knows how to fly that said ship and (dare i say) is intimately familiar with it. Not someone who knows how to read a book and generate stats... hell anyone can do that. Few can play EVE online and know it well enough to relay information. Not even I would fit that job... I'm just starting... and I've been at it for a little over 2 years if not at. Furthermore... my pet peeves with Mazz and Lark (whom I seem to pick on frequently) are there actions... not there experience. If either of them tell me "This ship does this and this way because I've been doing this for this long and that's that" I'm not likely to argue with them. I will argue with them when it comes to there stance on ethics and accountability. So when it boils down to my large sore spot with those 2 its political... not experience in EVE. Bottom line yet again... if we don't get people who are experienced with the daily life of EVE... they have no business representing us let alone dealing with the data they collect. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com =========================
Aynen	Posted - 2010.01.28 19:49:00 - [111] Granted, but the expertese you're after tends to come in a package deal, along with the personal interest such an expert has invested in the game, aswell as that he can't be held very accountable, being that he's just a player, not a payed employee who has his livelihood depending on his ability to keep his job. Also, a lot of experts lack the other skills required to be a representative: they feel they're so keenly aware of the game and what it needs that they stop to listen. With permanent employees who have good credentials, you will lose some of the experience, and gain reliability, which in my view is a good trade. Would ofcourse be nicer to get both, but how do you go about getting that?
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre Looney Toons.	Posted - 2010.01.28 20:48:00 - [112] Edited by: Drake Draconis on 28/01/2010 20:50:28 Originally by: Aynen Granted, but the expertese you're after tends to come in a package deal, along with the personal interest such an expert has invested in the game, aswell as that he can't be held very accountable, being that he's just a player, not a payed employee who has his livelihood depending on his ability to keep his job. Also, a lot of experts lack the other skills required to be a representative: they feel they're so keenly aware of the game and what it needs that they stop to listen. With permanent employees who have good credentials, you will lose some of the experience, and gain reliability, which in my view is a good trade. Would ofcourse be nicer to get both, but how do you go about getting that? That's why I said Unbiased Experienced Pilots. But again... I don't know how.... surely someone around here has an idea that would involve keeping what we got... but altering the rules or the process of election to make it fit better. Perhaps you force them to leave there various alliances/corporations much like an ISD volunteer... this would force them to be detached to a degree and would have to do a great deal of work around to get anywhere. And to prevent alt abuse... require a 2 year old pilot age requirement to get elected in the first place. (For those with more than one account... verify via credit card records and such... hell they (CCP) want a passport.. its just gonna be a little obvious if they are frakking around) No one should be allowed to run if they are on an different account. (if that's not a rule already it should be!) This keeps the repeat alternate crap and people who get thrown out from coming back without a great deal of effort and cost to there own. Nothing stops them from doing alliance business... but it would give the impression of neutrality and less on judging them due to there ties to whatever alliance. It may not be perfect... but it would cause alot of frustration on the current status quo and may change it up juuust enough to make it work. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com =========================
Aynen	Posted - 2010.01.28 20:58:00 - [113] Originally by: Drake Draconis That's why I said Unbiased Experienced Pilots. But again... I don't know how.... surely someone around here has an idea that would involve keeping what we got... but altering the rules or the process of election to make it fit better. Perhaps you force them to leave there various alliances/corporations much like an ISD volunteer... this would force them to be detached to a degree and would have to do a great deal of work around to get anywhere. And to prevent alt abuse... require a 2 year old pilot age requirement to get elected in the first place. (For those with more than one account... verify via credit card records and such... hell they (CCP) want a passport.. its just gonna be a little obvious if they are frakking around) No one should be allowed to run if they are on an different account. (if that's not a rule already it should be!) This keeps the repeat alternate crap and people who get thrown out from coming back without a great deal of effort and cost to there own. Nothing stops them from doing alliance business... but it would give the impression of neutrality and less on judging them due to there ties to whatever alliance. It may not be perfect... but it would cause alot of frustration on the current status quo and may change it up juuust enough to make it work. To be honest, I'm rather sceptical of that that would work. Mostly because in order for the people to have faith in the system again, it shouldn't look too much like the CSM we allready know or they'll argue that it hasn't really changed, and they'll still have biass against it. and without good playerbase involvement, it won't work no matter what we do.
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre Looney Toons.	Posted - 2010.01.28 21:01:00 - [114] Originally by: Aynen Originally by: Drake Draconis That's why I said Unbiased Experienced Pilots. But again... I don't know how.... surely someone around here has an idea that would involve keeping what we got... but altering the rules or the process of election to make it fit better. Perhaps you force them to leave there various alliances/corporations much like an ISD volunteer... this would force them to be detached to a degree and would have to do a great deal of work around to get anywhere. And to prevent alt abuse... require a 2 year old pilot age requirement to get elected in the first place. (For those with more than one account... verify via credit card records and such... hell they (CCP) want a passport.. its just gonna be a little obvious if they are frakking around) No one should be allowed to run if they are on an different account. (if that's not a rule already it should be!) This keeps the repeat alternate crap and people who get thrown out from coming back without a great deal of effort and cost to there own. Nothing stops them from doing alliance business... but it would give the impression of neutrality and less on judging them due to there ties to whatever alliance. It may not be perfect... but it would cause alot of frustration on the current status quo and may change it up juuust enough to make it work. To be honest, I'm rather sceptical of that that would work. Mostly because in order for the people to have faith in the system again, it shouldn't look too much like the CSM we allready know or they'll argue that it hasn't really changed, and they'll still have biass against it. and without good playerbase involvement, it won't work no matter what we do. CSM is hated because of peoples actions... not because of the CSM itself. They just don't know who to blame... so the CSM gets slapped around. So change the behavior of the CSM and get people to try again. Restrict who can run and who cant... make it harder to get in. I would give it an another shot if convinced there was a good shot. But shutting it down would be worse. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com =========================
Aynen	Posted - 2010.01.28 21:20:00 - [115] I don't think the average human being works that way, they'll want to see radical change before scepsis goes away. In the end, even if the change is just cosmetic in nature, I'd still support the main idea of disbanding and reforming the CSM or the idea behind it.
wert668	Posted - 2010.01.29 12:31:00 - [116]
Van Haulen	Posted - 2010.01.29 12:38:00 - [117]
Jarvis Hellstrom The Flying Tigers United Front Alliance	Posted - 2010.01.29 17:08:00 - [118] Clearly something needs to change. One issue that I have when I vote (and I always do) is that getting a real handle on the positions of the candidates is difficult. Some were easy choices, this last one was incredibly hard as I couldn't find a single candidate that I felt would represent anything like the majority of my opinions about things that need work in the game. Since that's the point of the organization, that's an issue. This is the 21st Century. We can fix that, we have the technology. Let's start with some basic ideas. First of all, we want to know what the candidates stand for. This should be readily available information. When someone tosses their hat in the CSM ring they should be required to fill out a form on their views which should then be available as a summary for all candidates in a simple chart. This could be broken up into various sections of the game. For instance: Suicide ganking: 1-10 Where 10 is "Everyone should be doing it" and 1 is "Doing it should get you banned". 5 is "Current Status Quo is fine". Someone then looking at a candidate could then see their stance on suicide ganking and know if they feel it should be made easier, harder or stay the same. These are very very general views, naturally, and reading what the candidate has to say on them would be important. But it at least lets you filter the candidates down to five or six you can really study who are closest to your own views. You could even take the survey yourself (the same survey) and have the system rank the candidates in order from how close their opinion matches yours to how far away they are either on a specific issue or a specific subset of issues (High sec matters etc.) or overall with all topics. Another thing - we have certificates now. Characters running for CSM should temporarily have their certificates made public as part of their campaign. That will give some idea of their ability in-game. Finally things like their sec status and standings should be made public. Yes - this means running for CSM throws a very public spotlight on you. Good. You want the job, you get the limelight for all the good and ill that comes with. These things would, I think, increase voting in the CSM. In fact, perhaps taking the survey and viewing the candidates should be something put up at log-in as part of the game. Yes, those who don't care could simply press "spoil ballot" and get on with the game but it would raise the interest of many players and get them thinking. Each candidate, in addition to their ratings and public stats, could have a short (maybe 1000 words) statement of their main platform and what they wish to help CCP focus on and accomplish. Are these a panacea? No, of course not. But they are tools that would improve, I believe, participation in CSM elections. Right now everyone just says, "Well, there will be goons and some big alliance people and maybe a single token carebear who will get ignored" and don't bother to vote. Perhaps, with better tools and more visibility to the population of New Eden as a whole, we might see better representation. Perhaps even a carebear dominated council? Wouldn't that be an odd thing? I don't want to see any part of EVE ignored. High sec, low sec, and null sec are all integral parts of the game and ALL need more love. As a player, I often joke about loathing pirates - and yet we NEED them in EVE and they need more attention to make their careers better and viable. Without bad guys, who would the good guys fight? Where's the excitement? Every part of the game has areas that need work. What's important is making the voice of the players known to CCP, not just the voice of a few special interest groups with too much ability to emphasize that voice under the current system. There's my .02 ISK on things. May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)
TeaDaze	Posted - 2010.01.29 18:35:00 - [119] Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom Let's start with some basic ideas. First of all, we want to know what the candidates stand for. This should be readily available information. When someone tosses their hat in the CSM ring they should be required to fill out a form on their views which should then be available as a summary for all candidates in a simple chart. Did you see Vote Match during the last CSM elections? It isn't quite what you suggest but was a pretty good idea. Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom Another thing - we have certificates now. Characters running for CSM should temporarily have their certificates made public as part of their campaign. That will give some idea of their ability in-game. I wouldn't have a problem with this, but it really only shows their ability to train various skills. E.g. my main has a raft of skills from when I was learning the game that mean nothing (industrial and trade skills that would make me out to be a trading expert when I've only used them a handful of times). Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom Finally things like their sec status and standings should be made public. They are already public. Open People and Places, search for character, show info, view sec status and standings. It would be easier to have it in one place of course, but somebody could have provided it just as Dierdra Vaal provided vote match. I would like to see some of these things in a future election portal along with the ability to vote in game (via the IGB would be fine) Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom Each candidate, in addition to their ratings and public stats, could have a short (maybe 1000 words) statement of their main platform and what they wish to help CCP focus on and accomplish. There was a box for this on the candidate list where the campaign statement from the CSM application was put. Some people decided to leave it blank or put in a "lol" type answer. However it was never stated that the box could have HTML formatting (the apps were sent via email) and CCP never updated the text when asked so it became of limited use. Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom Right now everyone just says, "Well, there will be goons and some big alliance people and maybe a single token carebear who will get ignored" and don't bother to vote. [...] Every part of the game has areas that need work. What's important is making the voice of the players known to CCP, not just the voice of a few special interest groups with too much ability to emphasize that voice under the current system. The bigger alliances have the muscle to get somebody (or in the goons case 2 people) voted in, but that is mostly down to the well organised nature of alliances. Ok, well organised might be a stretch in some cases but the point is they are generally loyal to their own members. Carebears are frequently solo or small corp focussed and as a whole lack the organisational structure to bloc vote even though clearly they could have pushed in a few candidates if they wanted to. Many of us didn't have the benefit of thousands of guaranteed alliance votes (my alliance have about 150 people) so they actually had to campaign. This at least demonstrates a level of commitment even if you don't agree with the platform they run on. As I wanted to be proactive I took advantage of vote match, I did live debates on Split infinity radio (as did 3 other people in the CSM and one of the alternates). I also taught PvP classes with Agony and a guest lecture spot with Eve University. I blogged, tweeted and directly interacted with the voters to answer questions etc. I put in the effort and was lucky to get enough people to support me, which is why I take the responsibility seriously and put in the time to discuss issues (as well as taking on a very time consuming role. The current system does not value the commitment a CSM member is willing to (or does) put in which should probably be looked at...
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers United Front Alliance	Posted - 2010.01.29 23:43:00 - [120] Originally by: TeaDaze Did you see Vote Match during the last CSM elections? It isn't quite what you suggest but was a pretty good idea. I did, but at the time I tried it couldn't get it to work properly. Might have been browser settings, not sure. I thought it a good concept but, since the darned thing wouldn't work for me, lacking in execution. Quote: I wouldn't have a problem with this, but it really only shows their ability to train various skills. E.g. my main has a raft of skills from when I was learning the game that mean nothing (industrial and trade skills that would make me out to be a trading expert when I've only used them a handful of times). I know - I have some I don't use as well. It's good to have something to go on though, and with the closure of ghost training there is less training of skills folks don't plan to use, at least on newer characters. It's not perfect (heck nothing is) but it's more info to go on. Quote: They are already public. Open People and Places, search for character, show info, view sec status and standings. It would be easier to have it in one place of course, but somebody could have provided it just as Dierdra Vaal provided vote match. I know, but wading through it all for thirty candidates, writing it all down etc. - just too finicky for most to bother. (I only checked the 3-4 of the folks I personally considered for my vote - and that means I may have missed something important). Quote: I would like to see some of these things in a future election portal along with the ability to vote in game (via the IGB would be fine) Well, now that the IGB actually works (well, mostly anyway certainly light years better than previously). In the real world governments put out a lot of effort for voting. The system we have works, after a fashion, but there is a lot of room for improvement. Quote: The current system does not value the commitment a CSM member is willing to (or does) put in Completely agree. The hard part is quantifying it in some way that isn't open to folks saying 'The CSM is just making themselves look real good'. I think a record of work put in (in some fashion) number of meetings attended/missed and the person's voting record should be summarized somewhere, again, easily accessible without tons of digging. Voters are, by and large, kind of lazy. That's human nature. I research who I vote for but even I'm lazier than I should be by my own standards. Even so I'm sure I do more than most folks who vote for the person they know, or on party lines etc. It's why incumbents in the real world have such a huge advantage. May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)

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