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CCP: Is the CSM a joke on us?

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Dirk Mortice	Posted - 2009.10.20 23:00:00 - [31] hate to break it to you son, but you got trolled.
Tippia Raddick Explorations Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2009.10.20 23:04:00 - [32] Originally by: MatrixSkye MkII I think some may be confusing in-game actions with out-of-game actions. CSM position = REAL-LIFE POSITION to better a product for its customers. And I think there is no confusion: if someone campaigns on the platform "I want to see more scams, corruption, illegality and general wickedness in-game", then an out-of-game (or perhaps more accurately meta-game) scheme such as this one only shows the candidate's dedication to his stated platform. As such, he's doing exactly what he's been elected to do. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
MatrixSkye MkII Minmatar	Posted - 2009.10.20 23:04:00 - [33] Edited by: MatrixSkye MkII on 20/10/2009 23:05:09 To Dirk Mortice, Quite possible. But considering Larkonis Trassler did about the same not too long ago it isn't that far fetched. In any case, being elected to CSM is now paving the way for idiots to present fictitious platforms only to then sell their positions for isk or whatever else they can. CSM, where being elected is like winning the isk lottery. Sweet. Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!
Dirty Wizard	Posted - 2009.10.20 23:07:00 - [34] Can it still be called a democracy when a small handful of players with large sums of money decide which issues get raised and which are shot down? This is indeed shameful and should be struck down by CCP. See sig for more details on this scandal. __________________________________ Want to help fix the CSM process? Show your support here.
MatrixSkye MkII Minmatar	Posted - 2009.10.20 23:12:00 - [35] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: MatrixSkye MkII I think some may be confusing in-game actions with out-of-game actions. CSM position = REAL-LIFE POSITION to better a product for its customers. And I think there is no confusion: if someone campaigns on the platform "I want to see more scams, corruption, illegality and general wickedness in-game", then an out-of-game (or perhaps more accurately meta-game) scheme such as this one only shows the candidate's dedication to his stated platform. As such, he's doing exactly what he's been elected to do. Um, you do realize the difference between playing a pirate in-game and acting one in real life? Any one person with enough money (real or isk) can influence the direction of the game. Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!
Gabriel Darkefyre Minmatar Shadows Of The Federation	Posted - 2009.10.20 23:15:00 - [36] Originally by: LaVista Vista Don't get me wrong, I think that selling "issues" is morally wrong. But I don't think that it's as big of a deal as people make it out to be. Perhaps, Perhaps not. Fact is, the CSM meetings are pushed for time as it is and there's only a limited amount of discussion time with CCP. If issues are getting pushed onto the CSM Meeting Agenda in return for ISK regardless of their merits ahead of issues that actually have been well thought out and address an accepted problem within the game, then there's a bigger problem. I'd rather the CSM's Meeting time was taken up by picking up ideas that made it there on their own merits rather than having to spend time wading through and discarding Ill Thought out ideas that are only on the table because a CSM member was paid to put it there. --------------- Image from Crumplecorn's DesuSigs
Tippia Raddick Explorations Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2009.10.20 23:15:00 - [37] Originally by: MatrixSkye MkII Um, you do realize the difference between playing a pirate in-game and acting one in real life? Yes. That difference doesn't particularly change the politics of it all. Quote: Any one person with enough money (real or isk) can influence the direction of the game. What else is new? ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Mara Rinn	Posted - 2009.10.20 23:29:00 - [38] Originally by: Jaabaa Prime (As you noticed, I said the CSM, not CCP. They are supposed to represent us, the players, and they all should respect that and act accordingly) The CSM was democratically elected, which means it is owned and operated by Goons. [Aussie players: join channel ANZAC]
Logit Probit	Posted - 2009.10.20 23:31:00 - [39] Originally by: MatrixSkye MkII I think some may be confusing in-game actions with out-of-game actions. CSM position = REAL-LIFE POSITION to better a product for its customers. Trading PLEX's (IN-GAME ITEM) = IN-GAME ACTIVITY. And Akita T, the difference is that for out-of-game actions there are consequences. In this case there doesn't seem to be any for abusing an elected position. Sorry Matrix Skye, but it would only be abuse if Mazz was trying to hide the fact that she's willing to trade spots on the CSM agenda for PLEXes. You yourself demonstrate that she's doing this in the open. Elections paired with transparency are what ensure that elected officials adhere to the interests of the electorate. She may be an idiot, a bad CSM delegate, and someone who does not fulfill campaign promises, but she's going about her business in a way that guarantees that she will be held accountable by the democratic structure of the CSM. You're the one coming off as anti-democratic here. Maybe you should stick to advocacy through posting about your views on specific issues, instead of demanding changes to institutions when they don't yield the results you want. (Given your track record of repeated failure when it comes to refining your views based on feedback from others, I won't hold my breath.)
Zartanic Red Federation	Posted - 2009.10.20 23:31:00 - [40] Edited by: Zartanic on 20/10/2009 23:33:38 This whole CSM concept is flawed as integrity is not crucial to being elected and there are no transparent checks on corruption. I'm sure many CSM members do act with integrity but it only takes a few idiots to blow the system wide open. CCP should not be wasting their time and resources with this, the cash could be spent on getting the views of all EVE players instead. The purpose of CSM is to put across the views of the players. When those views can be exploited or sold then they have lost all credibility.
Pearre Dash	Posted - 2009.10.20 23:39:00 - [41] This is not an issue, Mazz will just take the plexes and not do anything in return vOv
Catherine Frasier	Posted - 2009.10.20 23:50:00 - [42] Originally by: Logit Probit Elections paired with transparency are what ensure that elected officials adhere to the interests of the electorate. She may be an idiot, a bad CSM delegate, and someone who does not fulfill campaign promises, but she's going about her business in a way that guarantees that she will be held accountable by the democratic structure of the CSM. The problem is not solved because she won't be re-elected. The problem is the damage done before that time. The only way your "solution" would be a solution is if we voted to ratify every decision by every representative. (Not terribly efficient.) Originally by: Logit Probit You're the one coming off as anti-democratic here. Hardly. You want to see democracy? Let's have a recall vote right now. Can't get much more democratic than that. Anti-democratic is when someone elected to represent can simply decide not to and the demos(people) can't do anything but watch.
Slade Trillgon Siorai Iontach	Posted - 2009.10.20 23:52:00 - [43] Edited by: Slade Trillgon on 20/10/2009 23:54:33 Originally by: MatrixSkye MkII And Akita T, the difference is that for out-of-game actions there are consequences. In this case there doesn't seem to be any for abusing an elected position. So why do you not give her a plex and let her raise the issue with the CSM Sorry, had to do it, but I hope you know where i was going with that one. EDIT: Originally by: Gabriel Darkefyre If issues are getting pushed onto the CSM Meeting Agenda in return for ISK regardless of their merits ahead of issues that actually have been well thought out and address an accepted problem within the game, then there's a bigger problem. Then again if someone is willing to pay for an idiot idea to get presented to the CSM, I would laugh at them and hope the rest of the CSM would laugh the request out without taking much time at all. Then again that means I have faith in the CSM to begin with Slade Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker Please go sit in the corner, and dont forget to don the shame-on-you-hat! ≡v≡
Esk Esme Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2009.10.20 23:58:00 - [44] I see nothing wrong here EvE is a strange game were player's get to dictate alot they gaming style there is alot of this type thing in EvE (corruption) ppl get corrupted by other corps to close enemy corp's ppl get corrupted by a friend to rob corp wallets and so on scamming / stealing / murder is a way of life in EvE so why not bit of politicle corruption . my english sux sue btw i couldnt care less if CSM is curropt just adds little bit more R.L quality to the game
MatrixSkye MkII Minmatar	Posted - 2009.10.21 00:00:00 - [45] Edited by: MatrixSkye MkII on 21/10/2009 00:00:49 Originally by: Slade Trillgon So why do you not give her a plex and let her raise the issue with the CSM Sorry, had to do it, but I hope you know where i was going with that one. Touche . Well played sir. Well played. Quote: Then again if someone is willing to pay for an idiot idea to get presented to the CSM, I would laugh at them and hope the rest of the CSM would laugh the request out without taking much time at all. This assuming none of the other CSMs has already been bought. Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!
Logit Probit	Posted - 2009.10.21 00:02:00 - [46] Originally by: Catherine Frasier Originally by: Logit Probit Elections paired with transparency are what ensure that elected officials adhere to the interests of the electorate. She may be an idiot, a bad CSM delegate, and someone who does not fulfill campaign promises, but she's going about her business in a way that guarantees that she will be held accountable by the democratic structure of the CSM. The problem is not solved because she won't be re-elected. The problem is the damage done before that time. The only way your "solution" would be a solution is if we voted to ratify every decision by every representative. (Not terribly efficient.) Originally by: Logit Probit You're the one coming off as anti-democratic here. Hardly. You want to see democracy? Let's have a recall vote right now. Can't get much more democratic than that. Anti-democratic is when someone elected to represent can simply decide not to and the demos(people) can't do anything but watch. Yeah, you're right. We don't need institutions to protect us against majority tyranny. Mob rule for the win
Larkonis TrassIer Neo Spartans Laconian Syndicate	Posted - 2009.10.21 00:04:00 - [47] Originally by: Dirty Wizard Can it still be called a democracy when a small handful of players with large sums of money decide which issues get raised and which are shot down? Substitute players for real people and you are describing just about every western democracy. Also, y'all know it's a troll right?
Logit Probit	Posted - 2009.10.21 00:22:00 - [48] Originally by: Larkonis TrassIer Also, y'all know it's a troll right? killjoy
De'Veldrin Minmatar Special Projects Executive	Posted - 2009.10.21 00:23:00 - [49] Originally by: Larkonis TrassIer Originally by: Dirty Wizard Can it still be called a democracy when a small handful of players with large sums of money decide which issues get raised and which are shot down? Substitute players for real people and you are describing just about every western democracy. Also, y'all know it's a troll right? I repeat my previous questions: If this is such a troll why has Mazz not been banned and the thread locked. That's what happened to other trolls right? --Vel In the world of emoticons, I was colon capital d.
Larkonis TrassIer Neo Spartans Laconian Syndicate	Posted - 2009.10.21 00:35:00 - [50] Originally by: De'Veldrin Originally by: Larkonis TrassIer Originally by: Dirty Wizard Can it still be called a democracy when a small handful of players with large sums of money decide which issues get raised and which are shot down? Substitute players for real people and you are describing just about every western democracy. Also, y'all know it's a troll right? I repeat my previous questions: If this is such a troll why has Mazz not been banned and the thread locked. That's what happened to other trolls right? Because you're all still biting and it's pretty hilarious.
Dirty Wizard	Posted - 2009.10.21 00:36:00 - [51] Originally by: De'Veldrin I repeat my previous questions: If this is such a troll why has Mazz not been banned and the thread locked. That's what happened to other trolls right? Because she's CSM and the CSM process has absolutely zero checks and balances in regards to behavior. It's the very purpose of the linked thread in my sig. To put a stop to crap like this. She's already stated that she will press PL to flex their voting muscle and vote her in for CSM 4. Then this unchecked cycle of garbage will continue on. This is precisely why the CSM process is in such dire need of reform. This is why so many of us are upset. __________________________________ Want to help fix the CSM process? Show your support here.
Jason Edwards Internet Tough Guy	Posted - 2009.10.21 00:37:00 - [52] Nothing in the rules afaik that stops mazz from doing that. Also with PL backing... mazz will get reelected if she runs again. So the joke is on you OP. ------------------------ To make a megathron from scratch, you must first invent the eve universe. ------------------------ Life sucks and then you get podded.
Logit Probit	Posted - 2009.10.21 00:39:00 - [53] Originally by: Jason Edwards Nothing in the rules afaik that stops mazz from doing that. Also with PL backing... mazz will get reelected if she runs again. So the joke is on you OP. You, sir, win one internets for the Carl Sagan reference in your sig.
Larkonis TrassIer Neo Spartans Laconian Syndicate	Posted - 2009.10.21 00:41:00 - [54] Originally by: Dirty Wizard Originally by: De'Veldrin I repeat my previous questions: If this is such a troll why has Mazz not been banned and the thread locked. That's what happened to other trolls right? Because she's CSM and the CSM process has absolutely zero checks and balances in regards to behavior. It's the very purpose of the linked thread in my sig. To put a stop to crap like this. She's already stated that she will press PL to flex their voting muscle and vote her in for CSM 4. Then this unchecked cycle of garbage will continue on. This is precisely why the CSM process is in such dire need of reform. This is why so many of us are upset. So you are saying ban anyone with ties to a large alliance from running in the CSM?
MatrixSkye MkII Minmatar	Posted - 2009.10.21 00:41:00 - [55] Originally by: Jason Edwards Nothing in the rules afaik that stops mazz from doing that. Also with PL backing... mazz will get reelected if she runs again. So the joke is on you OP. Actually, the joke is on all of us. Some just don't know it yet. Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!
MatrixSkye MkII Minmatar	Posted - 2009.10.21 00:47:00 - [56] Now that it's pretty transparent what the CSM could be and is all about I won't be supporting nor counting on them. But I suspect CCP will still be putting some level of support on them and the issues they bring up, and this is unfortunate considering time will be wasted on unimportant issues while genuine and pressing concerns may be left in limbo as a result. Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!
Ava Santiago Minmatar	Posted - 2009.10.21 00:54:00 - [57] Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: Catherine Frasier While it is true that the exchange of ISK may not guarantee an eventual game-alteration, to say that democratically elected representatives selling their offices makes no difference to the process of the representative council is to be just about as wrong as you possibly could be. What I'm saying is that the fact that there's ISK involved between 2 persons doesn't short-circuit the CSM process before it reaches CCP. And even then, CCP can just say "No" if a stupid reason is raised. Don't get me wrong, I think that selling "issues" is morally wrong. But I don't think that it's as big of a deal as people make it out to be. This from a CSM member involved in the E-Bank ponzi scheme and the market forum ongoing IPO thefts. So a completely reliable and trustworthy politician. Concord doesn't provide consequences. Concord provides insurance payouts.
Larkonis TrassIer Neo Spartans Laconian Syndicate	Posted - 2009.10.21 00:55:00 - [58] Originally by: MatrixSkye MkII Now that it's pretty transparent what the CSM could be and is all about I won't be supporting nor counting on them. But I suspect CCP will still be putting some level of support on them and the issues they bring up, and this is unfortunate considering time will be wasted on unimportant issues while genuine and pressing concerns may be left in limbo as a result. You'd be naive to think that everyone who runs for the CSM is a selfless bastion of justice who doesn't have their own individual agendas or issues they wanted pushed through on behalf of their corp/alliance. Just look at every individual's campaign thread for God's sake. You'd be foolish to think that the CSM will devolve into some 'Cash for issues' get rich scheme where genuine, valid and pressing issues are ignored. Everyone wants to see the game improved.
De'Veldrin Minmatar Special Projects Executive	Posted - 2009.10.21 00:55:00 - [59] Originally by: Larkonis TrassIer Originally by: De'Veldrin Originally by: Larkonis TrassIer Originally by: Dirty Wizard Can it still be called a democracy when a small handful of players with large sums of money decide which issues get raised and which are shot down? Substitute players for real people and you are describing just about every western democracy. Also, y'all know it's a troll right? I repeat my previous questions: If this is such a troll why has Mazz not been banned and the thread locked. That's what happened to other trolls right? Because you're all still biting and it's pretty hilarious. So what you're saying is: as long as it's funny, there's no repercussions? Nice. I take it back what I said earlier. You are a **tard (And yes, I'm a first class ***). --Vel In the world of emoticons, I was colon capital d.
MatrixSkye MkII Minmatar	Posted - 2009.10.21 01:05:00 - [60] Edited by: MatrixSkye MkII on 21/10/2009 01:06:59 Originally by: Larkonis TrassIer You'd be naive to think that everyone who runs for the CSM is a selfless bastion of justice who doesn't have their own individual agendas or issues they wanted pushed through on behalf of their corp/alliance. Just look at every individual's campaign thread for God's sake. Realistically speaking I know you're right. That's just how things are. But still, I'm a bit of a dreamer. So lesson learned, I suppose. Quote: You'd be foolish to think that the CSM will devolve into some 'Cash for issues' get rich scheme where genuine, valid and pressing issues are ignored. I don't know what the CSM will evolve or devolve into. What I do know is that the potential is not only there, but it comes into fruition when **** like this happens and it is going unchecked. It's all good. Hey, more power to her. I think it's a shame though. But as someone said a few posts above (Tippia?), that's politics for ya. Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!

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