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MatrixSkye MkII
Minmatar
   |
Posted - 2009.10.20 19:31:00 -
[1]
Edited by: MatrixSkye MkII on 20/10/2009 19:35:43
Well, we have Mazzilliu, in this thread, "selling" issues that need addressing for in-game items (PLEXes). No big deal if it's meant as a joke. If it's not, is there a way we could "impeach" elected players?
Edit: If it is a joke I have to admit it's kind of funny and we've been trolled by CCP  .
Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today! |
Suas
Perkone
|
Posted - 2009.10.20 19:50:00 -
[2]
It's you. You're the worst poster on all of EVE-O.
_________________________
HELLO! My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. PREPARE TO DIE! |
Soma Khan
|
Posted - 2009.10.20 19:52:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Suas
It's you. You're the worst poster on all of EVE-O.
___
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Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
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Posted - 2009.10.20 19:52:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Suas
It's you. You're the worst poster on all of EVE-O.
At least he is active and doesn't abandon his threads.
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MatrixSkye MkII
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2009.10.20 19:55:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Suas
It's you. You're the worst poster on all of EVE-O.
Wow, do you mean that? I'm the worst poster on ALL of Eve-O? That is quite an honor. I'm flattered .
Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today! |
Slade Trillgon
Siorai Iontach
|
Posted - 2009.10.20 19:56:00 -
[6]
Crossposting bad.
I will let it slide this time  
Slade
Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker
Please go sit in the corner, and dont forget to don the shame-on-you-hat!
=v= |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
|
Posted - 2009.10.20 19:56:00 -
[7]
Originally by: MatrixSkye MkII
No big deal if it's meant as a joke.
Captain Piccard is sat in a chair, his head in his hand.
Because of what you just posted.
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Lou Margoulin
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Posted - 2009.10.20 20:02:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Lou Margoulin on 20/10/2009 20:02:01
Politics go with corruption, at least this is transparent corruption.
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Catherine Frasier
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Posted - 2009.10.20 20:02:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Malcanis
Captain Piccard is sat in a chair, his head in his hand.
Because of what you just posted.
Is that Malcanoid for "Yes, it was a joke"?
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
|
Posted - 2009.10.20 20:05:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Catherine Frasier
Originally by: Malcanis
Captain Piccard is sat in a chair, his head in his hand.
Because of what you just posted.
Is that Malcanoid for "Yes, it was a joke"?
Now he is holding his head in both hands.
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Irida Mershkov
Gallente
Black Marsh X
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Posted - 2009.10.20 20:11:00 -
[11]
Jesus Christ stop ****ing whining.
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Catherine Frasier
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Posted - 2009.10.20 20:13:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Catherine Frasier on 20/10/2009 20:15:49
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Catherine Frasier
Originally by: Malcanis
Captain Piccard is sat in a chair, his head in his hand.
Because of what you just posted.
Is that Malcanoid for "Yes, it was a joke"?
Now he is holding his head in both hands.
Well, sorry to burst your pop-culture reference bubble but I haven't seen any conclusive evidence that it was, in fact, a joke. If you actually know something then...
Oh right, forgot who I was talking to. Nevermind.
Originally by: Irida Mershkov
Jesus Christ stop ****ing whining.
Hey man, they nailed him to a board, I bet you'd whine a bit too.
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Slade Trillgon
Siorai Iontach
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Posted - 2009.10.20 20:15:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Catherine Frasier
Well, sorry to burst your pop-culture reference bubble but I haven't seen any conclusive evidence that it was, in fact, a joke. If you actually know something then...
Oh right, forgot who I was talking to. Nevermind.
His reference was to Picard facepalming, which was in reference to the comment about the thread being a joke, which is techinically worse then if the thread is real. Hence the facepalm.
Fake Edit: Well at least that is how I interpret it.
Slade
Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker
Please go sit in the corner, and dont forget to don the shame-on-you-hat!
=v= |
Catherine Frasier
|
Posted - 2009.10.20 20:21:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Slade Trillgon
His reference was to Picard facepalming, which was in reference to the comment about the thread being a joke, which is techinically worse then if the thread is real. Hence the facepalm.
Fake Edit: Well at least that is how I interpret it.
Your interpretation is plausible, sadly though my Malcanoid->English decoder ring is broken. Is it a facepalm because it's obviously a joke, obviously not a joke, or is it some other element which is revealed only when examined through the dark glass of Malcania?
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Apotamkin
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Posted - 2009.10.20 20:28:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Irida Mershkov
Jesus Christ stop ****ing whining.
I wish people would stop whining about people whining  |
Discrodia
Gallente
Unknown-Entity
Maru Ka'ge
|
Posted - 2009.10.20 20:43:00 -
[16]
My IQ dropped 10 points reading this thread.
________________________________________________
I'm the station camper with the Phobos whose annoying you
I will provide a rebuttal as soon as Scotty, the posting manager allows. |
LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
|
Posted - 2009.10.20 20:43:00 -
[17]
It doesn't matter for the process if money was exchanged or not to have an issue raised.
If the issue isn't worth raising, the majority of the CSM will vote it down. The exchange of ISK doesn't make a difference.
Paying ISK isn't equal to instant elevation to CCP.
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Irida Mershkov
Gallente
Black Marsh X
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Posted - 2009.10.20 20:44:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Apotamkin
Originally by: Irida Mershkov
Jesus Christ stop ****ing whining.
I wish people would stop whining about people whining
I've got to have something to do.
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Cyberman Mastermind
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Posted - 2009.10.20 20:53:00 -
[19]
Originally by: LaVista Vista
It doesn't matter for the process if money was exchanged or not to have an issue raised.
If the issue isn't worth raising, the majority of the CSM will vote it down. The exchange of ISK doesn't make a difference.
Only as long as the majority of the CSM can't be bought.
I wonder how long it will take till all or most of them can be bought. Will be interesting to see if or how it will be limited, if it spreads... |
MatrixSkye MkII
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2009.10.20 21:01:00 -
[20]
Edited by: MatrixSkye MkII on 20/10/2009 21:01:30
Originally by: Cyberman Mastermind
Originally by: LaVista Vista
It doesn't matter for the process if money was exchanged or not to have an issue raised.
If the issue isn't worth raising, the majority of the CSM will vote it down. The exchange of ISK doesn't make a difference.
Only as long as the majority of the CSM can't be bought.
I wonder how long it will take till all or most of them can be bought. Will be interesting to see if or how it will be limited, if it spreads...
This. Someone with enough isk (or real life money for that matter) can theoretically bribe enough CSMs to bring up an issue.
Ironically enough, the CSM was created to curb this kind of stuff (remember T20?)
Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today! |
Jaabaa Prime
Minmatar
Quam Singulari
Cult of War
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Posted - 2009.10.20 21:07:00 -
[21]
I would never have looked at the referred post, thanks.
I guess that this CSM member's credibility just dropped into a bottomless chasm.
In politics, there is always some level of "you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours" (also called lobbying), but I don't really think that publicly announcing your intentions (even if they are not "expressly" against the rules) would ever gain you sympathy amongst your peers (both as a member of the CSM and as an EVE player).
As far as I see it, it should be up to the CSM to vote the afore mentioned person out of the CSM, and if the current rules and regulations don't provide for it, approve a motion that a CSM member can be voted out of office AND then vote him/her out.
Wasn't there some kind of provisioning for backups ?
The CSM should take this seriously and purge this kind of behaviour from the council.
(As you noticed, I said the CSM, not CCP. They are supposed to represent us, the players, and they all should respect that and act accordingly)
--
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Catherine Frasier
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Posted - 2009.10.20 21:13:00 -
[22]
Originally by: LaVista Vista
It doesn't matter for the process if money was exchanged or not to have an issue raised.
If the issue isn't worth raising, the majority of the CSM will vote it down. The exchange of ISK doesn't make a difference.
While it is true that the exchange of ISK may not guarantee an eventual game-alteration, to say that democratically elected representatives selling their offices makes no difference to the process of the representative council is to be just about as wrong as you possibly could be.
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LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
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Posted - 2009.10.20 21:20:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Catherine Frasier
While it is true that the exchange of ISK may not guarantee an eventual game-alteration, to say that democratically elected representatives selling their offices makes no difference to the process of the representative council is to be just about as wrong as you possibly could be.
What I'm saying is that the fact that there's ISK involved between 2 persons doesn't short-circuit the CSM process before it reaches CCP.
And even then, CCP can just say "No" if a stupid reason is raised.
Don't get me wrong, I think that selling "issues" is morally wrong. But I don't think that it's as big of a deal as people make it out to be.
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Catherine Frasier
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Posted - 2009.10.20 21:27:00 -
[24]
Originally by: LaVista Vista
What I'm saying is that the fact that there's ISK involved between 2 persons doesn't short-circuit the CSM process before it reaches CCP.
Of course it does. Elected representatives are in place to represent the electorate not to represent the highest bidder or earn a little cash selling their offices while the concerns of the electorate take a back seat.
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations
Controlled Chaos
|
Posted - 2009.10.20 21:44:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Catherine Frasier
Elected representatives are in place to represent the electorate not to represent the highest bidder or earn a little cash selling their offices while the concerns of the electorate take a back seat.
That all depends on which voters (s)he represents…
If it was the mercs that voted the CSM in question in, then his/her behaviour probably echoes the expectations of the electorate perfectly, and will match their concerns just fine.
———
“If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡…
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.”
— Karath Piki |
Catherine Frasier
|
Posted - 2009.10.20 21:53:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Tippia
If it was the mercs that voted the CSM in question in, then his/her behaviour probably echoes the expectations of the electorate perfectly, and will match their concerns just fine.
You are confusing in-game and out-of-game behaviour.
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Havohej
Minmatar
Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.10.20 22:39:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Catherine Frasier
Originally by: Malcanis
Captain Piccard is sat in a chair, his head in his hand.
Because of what you just posted.
Is that Malcanoid for "Yes, it was a joke"?
Now he is holding his head in both hands.
From this point on, proper syntax for /doublefacepalm shall be "Matrix and Malcanis, on the forums."
"You can still steal their stuff." - CCP Explorer |
Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
|
Posted - 2009.10.20 22:42:00 -
[28]
Well if you kept up with the goings on in AH then you'd realize that Mazzilliu ran out of ideas and important issues to bring up to the CSM months ago and she is fairly bored so needs something interesting to do.
I'd rather have someone sell out by letting anyone "buy" an issue to be raised rather than some huge dork like Anhk refuse to listen to anyone in the community and only push the ideas that she thinks should be raised. Those are the real selfish ones that end up harming the game. What Mazz is doing is a harmless joke really.
Originally by: CCP Whisper
So you're going to have to do some actual thinking with regards to hull components and their capabilities instead of copying some cookie-cutter setup. Cry some more.
|
Akita T
Caldari
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2009.10.20 22:47:00 -
[29]
Originally by: MatrixSkye MkII
Well, we have Mazzilliu, in this thread, "selling" issues that need addressing for in-game items (PLEXes). No big deal if it's meant as a joke. If it's not, is there a way we could "impeach" elected players?
How's that different from REAL-WORLD politics ? 
And the mechanism is simple, and the same : STOP ELECTING THEM 
_
We are recruiting | Beginer's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper |
MatrixSkye MkII
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2009.10.20 22:59:00 -
[30]
I think some may be confusing in-game actions with out-of-game actions.
CSM position = REAL-LIFE POSITION to better a product for its customers.
Trading PLEX's (IN-GAME ITEM) = IN-GAME ACTIVITY.
And Akita T, the difference is that for out-of-game actions there are consequences. In this case there doesn't seem to be any for abusing an elected position.
Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today! |
Dirk Mortice
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Posted - 2009.10.20 23:00:00 -
[31]
hate to break it to you son, but you got trolled.
|
Tippia
Raddick Explorations
Controlled Chaos
|
Posted - 2009.10.20 23:04:00 -
[32]
Originally by: MatrixSkye MkII
I think some may be confusing in-game actions with out-of-game actions.
CSM position = REAL-LIFE POSITION to better a product for its customers.
And I think there is no confusion: if someone campaigns on the platform "I want to see more scams, corruption, illegality and general wickedness in-game", then an out-of-game (or perhaps more accurately meta-game) scheme such as this one only shows the candidate's dedication to his stated platform. As such, he's doing exactly what he's been elected to do.
———
“If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡…
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.”
— Karath Piki |
MatrixSkye MkII
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2009.10.20 23:04:00 -
[33]
Edited by: MatrixSkye MkII on 20/10/2009 23:05:09
To Dirk Mortice,
Quite possible.
But considering Larkonis Trassler did about the same not too long ago it isn't that far fetched. In any case, being elected to CSM is now paving the way for idiots to present fictitious platforms only to then sell their positions for isk or whatever else they can.
CSM, where being elected is like winning the isk lottery. Sweet.
Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today! |
Dirty Wizard
|
Posted - 2009.10.20 23:07:00 -
[34]
Can it still be called a democracy when a small handful of players with large sums of money decide which issues get raised and which are shot down?
This is indeed shameful and should be struck down by CCP. See sig for more details on this scandal.
__________________________________
Want to help fix the CSM process?
Show your support here. |
MatrixSkye MkII
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2009.10.20 23:12:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: MatrixSkye MkII
I think some may be confusing in-game actions with out-of-game actions.
CSM position = REAL-LIFE POSITION to better a product for its customers.
And I think there is no confusion: if someone campaigns on the platform "I want to see more scams, corruption, illegality and general wickedness in-game", then an out-of-game (or perhaps more accurately meta-game) scheme such as this one only shows the candidate's dedication to his stated platform. As such, he's doing exactly what he's been elected to do.
Um, you do realize the difference between playing a pirate in-game and acting one in real life?
Any one person with enough money (real or isk) can influence the direction of the game.
Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today! |
Gabriel Darkefyre
Minmatar
Shadows Of The Federation
|
Posted - 2009.10.20 23:15:00 -
[36]
Originally by: LaVista Vista
Don't get me wrong, I think that selling "issues" is morally wrong. But I don't think that it's as big of a deal as people make it out to be.
Perhaps, Perhaps not. Fact is, the CSM meetings are pushed for time as it is and there's only a limited amount of discussion time with CCP. If issues are getting pushed onto the CSM Meeting Agenda in return for ISK regardless of their merits ahead of issues that actually have been well thought out and address an accepted problem within the game, then there's a bigger problem.
I'd rather the CSM's Meeting time was taken up by picking up ideas that made it there on their own merits rather than having to spend time wading through and discarding Ill Thought out ideas that are only on the table because a CSM member was paid to put it there.
---------------
Image from Crumplecorn's DesuSigs |
Tippia
Raddick Explorations
Controlled Chaos
|
Posted - 2009.10.20 23:15:00 -
[37]
Originally by: MatrixSkye MkII
Um, you do realize the difference between playing a pirate in-game and acting one in real life?
Yes. That difference doesn't particularly change the politics of it all.
Quote:
Any one person with enough money (real or isk) can influence the direction of the game.
What else is new?
———
“If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡…
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.”
— Karath Piki |
Mara Rinn
|
Posted - 2009.10.20 23:29:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Jaabaa Prime
(As you noticed, I said the CSM, not CCP. They are supposed to represent us, the players, and they all should respect that and act accordingly)
The CSM was democratically elected, which means it is owned and operated by Goons.
[Aussie players: join channel ANZAC] |
Logit Probit
|
Posted - 2009.10.20 23:31:00 -
[39]
Originally by: MatrixSkye MkII
I think some may be confusing in-game actions with out-of-game actions.
CSM position = REAL-LIFE POSITION to better a product for its customers.
Trading PLEX's (IN-GAME ITEM) = IN-GAME ACTIVITY.
And Akita T, the difference is that for out-of-game actions there are consequences. In this case there doesn't seem to be any for abusing an elected position.
Sorry Matrix Skye, but it would only be abuse if Mazz was trying to hide the fact that she's willing to trade spots on the CSM agenda for PLEXes. You yourself demonstrate that she's doing this in the open.
Elections paired with transparency are what ensure that elected officials adhere to the interests of the electorate. She may be an idiot, a bad CSM delegate, and someone who does not fulfill campaign promises, but she's going about her business in a way that guarantees that she will be held accountable by the democratic structure of the CSM.
You're the one coming off as anti-democratic here. Maybe you should stick to advocacy through posting about your views on specific issues, instead of demanding changes to institutions when they don't yield the results you want.
(Given your track record of repeated failure when it comes to refining your views based on feedback from others, I won't hold my breath.)
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Zartanic
Red Federation
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Posted - 2009.10.20 23:31:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Zartanic on 20/10/2009 23:33:38
This whole CSM concept is flawed as integrity is not crucial to being elected and there are no transparent checks on corruption. I'm sure many CSM members do act with integrity but it only takes a few idiots to blow the system wide open. CCP should not be wasting their time and resources with this, the cash could be spent on getting the views of all EVE players instead.
The purpose of CSM is to put across the views of the players. When those views can be exploited or sold then they have lost all credibility.
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Pearre Dash
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Posted - 2009.10.20 23:39:00 -
[41]
This is not an issue, Mazz will just take the plexes and not do anything in return vOv
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Catherine Frasier
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Posted - 2009.10.20 23:50:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Logit Probit
Elections paired with transparency are what ensure that elected officials adhere to the interests of the electorate. She may be an idiot, a bad CSM delegate, and someone who does not fulfill campaign promises, but she's going about her business in a way that guarantees that she will be held accountable by the democratic structure of the CSM.
The problem is not solved because she won't be re-elected. The problem is the damage done before that time. The only way your "solution" would be a solution is if we voted to ratify every decision by every representative. (Not terribly efficient.)
Originally by: Logit Probit
You're the one coming off as anti-democratic here.
Hardly. You want to see democracy? Let's have a recall vote right now. Can't get much more democratic than that.
Anti-democratic is when someone elected to represent can simply decide not to and the demos(people) can't do anything but watch.
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Slade Trillgon
Siorai Iontach
|
Posted - 2009.10.20 23:52:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Slade Trillgon on 20/10/2009 23:54:33
Originally by: MatrixSkye MkII
And Akita T, the difference is that for out-of-game actions there are consequences. In this case there doesn't seem to be any for abusing an elected position.
So why do you not give her a plex and let her raise the issue with the CSM
Sorry, had to do it, but I hope you know where i was going with that one.
EDIT:
Originally by: Gabriel Darkefyre
If issues are getting pushed onto the CSM Meeting Agenda in return for ISK regardless of their merits ahead of issues that actually have been well thought out and address an accepted problem within the game, then there's a bigger problem.
Then again if someone is willing to pay for an idiot idea to get presented to the CSM, I would laugh at them and hope the rest of the CSM would laugh the request out without taking much time at all.
Then again that means I have faith in the CSM to begin with 
Slade
Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker
Please go sit in the corner, and dont forget to don the shame-on-you-hat!
≡v≡
|
Esk Esme
Caldari
Perkone
|
Posted - 2009.10.20 23:58:00 -
[44]
I see nothing wrong here
EvE is a strange game were player's get to dictate alot they gaming style
there is alot of this type thing in EvE (corruption) ppl get corrupted by other corps to close enemy corp's ppl get corrupted by a friend to rob corp wallets and so on
scamming / stealing / murder is a way of life in EvE so why not bit of politicle corruption .
my english sux sue
btw i couldnt care less if CSM is curropt just adds little bit more R.L quality to the game
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MatrixSkye MkII
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2009.10.21 00:00:00 -
[45]
Edited by: MatrixSkye MkII on 21/10/2009 00:00:49
Originally by: Slade Trillgon
So why do you not give her a plex and let her raise the issue with the CSM
Sorry, had to do it, but I hope you know where i was going with that one.
Touche . Well played sir. Well played.
Quote:
Then again if someone is willing to pay for an idiot idea to get presented to the CSM, I would laugh at them and hope the rest of the CSM would laugh the request out without taking much time at all.
This assuming none of the other CSMs has already been bought.
Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today! |
Logit Probit
|
Posted - 2009.10.21 00:02:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Catherine Frasier
Originally by: Logit Probit
Elections paired with transparency are what ensure that elected officials adhere to the interests of the electorate. She may be an idiot, a bad CSM delegate, and someone who does not fulfill campaign promises, but she's going about her business in a way that guarantees that she will be held accountable by the democratic structure of the CSM.
The problem is not solved because she won't be re-elected. The problem is the damage done before that time. The only way your "solution" would be a solution is if we voted to ratify every decision by every representative. (Not terribly efficient.)
Originally by: Logit Probit
You're the one coming off as anti-democratic here.
Hardly. You want to see democracy? Let's have a recall vote right now. Can't get much more democratic than that.
Anti-democratic is when someone elected to represent can simply decide not to and the demos(people) can't do anything but watch.
Yeah, you're right. We don't need institutions to protect us against majority tyranny. Mob rule for the win
|
Larkonis TrassIer
Neo Spartans
Laconian Syndicate
|
Posted - 2009.10.21 00:04:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Dirty Wizard
Can it still be called a democracy when a small handful of players with large sums of money decide which issues get raised and which are shot down?
Substitute players for real people and you are describing just about every western democracy.
Also, y'all know it's a troll right?
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Logit Probit
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Posted - 2009.10.21 00:22:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Larkonis TrassIer
Also, y'all know it's a troll right?
killjoy
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De'Veldrin
Minmatar
Special Projects Executive
|
Posted - 2009.10.21 00:23:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Larkonis TrassIer
Originally by: Dirty Wizard
Can it still be called a democracy when a small handful of players with large sums of money decide which issues get raised and which are shot down?
Substitute players for real people and you are describing just about every western democracy.
Also, y'all know it's a troll right?
I repeat my previous questions:
If this is such a troll why has Mazz not been banned and the thread locked. That's what happened to other trolls right?
--Vel
In the world of emoticons, I was colon capital d. |
Larkonis TrassIer
Neo Spartans
Laconian Syndicate
|
Posted - 2009.10.21 00:35:00 -
[50]
Originally by: De'Veldrin
Originally by: Larkonis TrassIer
Originally by: Dirty Wizard
Can it still be called a democracy when a small handful of players with large sums of money decide which issues get raised and which are shot down?
Substitute players for real people and you are describing just about every western democracy.
Also, y'all know it's a troll right?
I repeat my previous questions:
If this is such a troll why has Mazz not been banned and the thread locked. That's what happened to other trolls right?
Because you're all still biting and it's pretty hilarious.
|
Dirty Wizard
|
Posted - 2009.10.21 00:36:00 -
[51]
Originally by: De'Veldrin
I repeat my previous questions:
If this is such a troll why has Mazz not been banned and the thread locked. That's what happened to other trolls right?
Because she's CSM and the CSM process has absolutely zero checks and balances in regards to behavior. It's the very purpose of the linked thread in my sig. To put a stop to crap like this.
She's already stated that she will press PL to flex their voting muscle and vote her in for CSM 4. Then this unchecked cycle of garbage will continue on. This is precisely why the CSM process is in such dire need of reform.
This is why so many of us are upset.
__________________________________
Want to help fix the CSM process?
Show your support here. |
Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
|
Posted - 2009.10.21 00:37:00 -
[52]
Nothing in the rules afaik that stops mazz from doing that. Also with PL backing... mazz will get reelected if she runs again.
So the joke is on you OP.
------------------------
To make a megathron from scratch, you must first invent the eve universe.
------------------------
Life sucks and then you get podded. |
Logit Probit
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Posted - 2009.10.21 00:39:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Jason Edwards
Nothing in the rules afaik that stops mazz from doing that. Also with PL backing... mazz will get reelected if she runs again.
So the joke is on you OP.
You, sir, win one internets for the Carl Sagan reference in your sig.
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Larkonis TrassIer
Neo Spartans
Laconian Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.10.21 00:41:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Dirty Wizard
Originally by: De'Veldrin
I repeat my previous questions:
If this is such a troll why has Mazz not been banned and the thread locked. That's what happened to other trolls right?
Because she's CSM and the CSM process has absolutely zero checks and balances in regards to behavior. It's the very purpose of the linked thread in my sig. To put a stop to crap like this.
She's already stated that she will press PL to flex their voting muscle and vote her in for CSM 4. Then this unchecked cycle of garbage will continue on. This is precisely why the CSM process is in such dire need of reform.
This is why so many of us are upset.
So you are saying ban anyone with ties to a large alliance from running in the CSM?
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MatrixSkye MkII
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.10.21 00:41:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Jason Edwards
Nothing in the rules afaik that stops mazz from doing that. Also with PL backing... mazz will get reelected if she runs again.
So the joke is on you OP.
Actually, the joke is on all of us. Some just don't know it yet.
Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today! |
MatrixSkye MkII
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.10.21 00:47:00 -
[56]
Now that it's pretty transparent what the CSM could be and is all about I won't be supporting nor counting on them. But I suspect CCP will still be putting some level of support on them and the issues they bring up, and this is unfortunate considering time will be wasted on unimportant issues while genuine and pressing concerns may be left in limbo as a result.
Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today! |
Ava Santiago
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.10.21 00:54:00 -
[57]
Originally by: LaVista Vista
Originally by: Catherine Frasier
While it is true that the exchange of ISK may not guarantee an eventual game-alteration, to say that democratically elected representatives selling their offices makes no difference to the process of the representative council is to be just about as wrong as you possibly could be.
What I'm saying is that the fact that there's ISK involved between 2 persons doesn't short-circuit the CSM process before it reaches CCP.
And even then, CCP can just say "No" if a stupid reason is raised.
Don't get me wrong, I think that selling "issues" is morally wrong. But I don't think that it's as big of a deal as people make it out to be.
This from a CSM member involved in the E-Bank ponzi scheme and the market forum ongoing IPO thefts. So a completely reliable and trustworthy politician.
Concord doesn't provide consequences. Concord provides insurance payouts. |
Larkonis TrassIer
Neo Spartans
Laconian Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.10.21 00:55:00 -
[58]
Originally by: MatrixSkye MkII
Now that it's pretty transparent what the CSM could be and is all about I won't be supporting nor counting on them. But I suspect CCP will still be putting some level of support on them and the issues they bring up, and this is unfortunate considering time will be wasted on unimportant issues while genuine and pressing concerns may be left in limbo as a result.
You'd be naive to think that everyone who runs for the CSM is a selfless bastion of justice who doesn't have their own individual agendas or issues they wanted pushed through on behalf of their corp/alliance. Just look at every individual's campaign thread for God's sake.
You'd be foolish to think that the CSM will devolve into some 'Cash for issues' get rich scheme where genuine, valid and pressing issues are ignored. Everyone wants to see the game improved.
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De'Veldrin
Minmatar
Special Projects Executive
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Posted - 2009.10.21 00:55:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Larkonis TrassIer
Originally by: De'Veldrin
Originally by: Larkonis TrassIer
Originally by: Dirty Wizard
Can it still be called a democracy when a small handful of players with large sums of money decide which issues get raised and which are shot down?
Substitute players for real people and you are describing just about every western democracy.
Also, y'all know it's a troll right?
I repeat my previous questions:
If this is such a troll why has Mazz not been banned and the thread locked. That's what happened to other trolls right?
Because you're all still biting and it's pretty hilarious.
So what you're saying is: as long as it's funny, there's no repercussions?
Nice.
I take it back what I said earlier. You are a ****tard
(And yes, I'm a first class *****).
--Vel
In the world of emoticons, I was colon capital d. |
MatrixSkye MkII
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.10.21 01:05:00 -
[60]
Edited by: MatrixSkye MkII on 21/10/2009 01:06:59
Originally by: Larkonis TrassIer
You'd be naive to think that everyone who runs for the CSM is a selfless bastion of justice who doesn't have their own individual agendas or issues they wanted pushed through on behalf of their corp/alliance. Just look at every individual's campaign thread for God's sake.
Realistically speaking I know you're right. That's just how things are. But still, I'm a bit of a dreamer. So lesson learned, I suppose.
Quote:
You'd be foolish to think that the CSM will devolve into some 'Cash for issues' get rich scheme where genuine, valid and pressing issues are ignored.
I don't know what the CSM will evolve or devolve into. What I do know is that the potential is not only there, but it comes into fruition when **** like this happens and it is going unchecked.
It's all good. Hey, more power to her. I think it's a shame though. But as someone said a few posts above (Tippia?), that's politics for ya.
Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today! |
Logit Probit
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Posted - 2009.10.21 01:16:00 -
[61]
Originally by: MatrixSkye MkII
Edited by: MatrixSkye MkII on 21/10/2009 01:06:59
Originally by: Larkonis TrassIer
You'd be naive to think that everyone who runs for the CSM is a selfless bastion of justice who doesn't have their own individual agendas or issues they wanted pushed through on behalf of their corp/alliance. Just look at every individual's campaign thread for God's sake.
Realistically speaking I know you're right. That's just how things are. But still, I'm a bit of a dreamer. So lesson learned, I suppose.
Quote:
You'd be foolish to think that the CSM will devolve into some 'Cash for issues' get rich scheme where genuine, valid and pressing issues are ignored.
I don't know what the CSM will evolve or devolve into. What I do know is that the potential is not only there, but it comes into fruition when **** like this happens and it is going unchecked.
It's all good. Hey, more power to her. I think it's a shame though. But as someone said a few posts above (Tippia?), that's politics for ya.
Wow, is that opinion evolution? I think hell just froze over.
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Herzog Wolfhammer
Gallente
Aliastra
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Posted - 2009.10.21 01:51:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Larkonis TrassIer
Originally by: Dirty Wizard
Can it still be called a democracy when a small handful of players with large sums of money decide which issues get raised and which are shot down?
Substitute players for real people and you are describing just about every western democracy.
Also, y'all know it's a troll right?
/thread
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Larkonis TrassIer
Neo Spartans
Laconian Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.10.21 01:52:00 -
[63]
Originally by: De'Veldrin
So what you're saying is: as long as it's funny, there's no repercussions?
Nice.
I take it back what I said earlier. You are a ****tard
(And yes, I'm a first class *****).
See, it's so easy to troll you. Even I can't help it.
I can't answer why it hasn't been locked, I'm sure it's got a lot of interested parties looking in on it though.
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Stargazer Monk
Caldari
State War Academy
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Posted - 2009.10.21 03:17:00 -
[64]
CSM? oh the free holiday to Iceland thing where you can sit in a boardroom and pretend to be important lol? The CSM is overkill and really serves no purpose outside having its specific discussion forum. Nice competition for the winners though, not that I would vote for any of you *******s
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Ryhss
Caldari
Sarum A Fortiori
Sanctimony of Bellum
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Posted - 2009.10.21 03:34:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Suas
It's you. You're the worst poster on all of EVE-O.
Is EVE-O like Steve-O from jackass?
This 5 minutes between posts crap needs to stop, NOW.
I think not, therefore I am not. |
Larkonis TrassIer
Neo Spartans
Laconian Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.10.21 03:53:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Stargazer Monk
CSM? oh the free holiday to Iceland thing where you can sit in a boardroom and pretend to be important lol? The CSM is overkill and really serves no purpose outside having its specific discussion forum. Nice competition for the winners though, not that I would vote for any of you *******s
I hit quote just so I could see what was censored. Was somewhat surprised that it's covered by the wordfilter (yet another thing that is being changed thanks to the CSM btw).
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Lotus Sutra
Caldari
Sutra Inc
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Posted - 2009.10.21 04:05:00 -
[67]
Edited by: Lotus Sutra on 21/10/2009 04:08:46
Originally by: Stargazer Monk
CSM? oh the free holiday to Iceland thing where you can sit in a boardroom and pretend to be important lol? The CSM is overkill and really serves no purpose outside having its specific discussion forum. Nice competition for the winners though, not that I would vote for any of you *******s
ROTFLMGDFAO!!!!!!!
You gotta be kidding me!
They Censored THAT out????
*edit* Ah ha, the YIDDISH meaning for that word is why. Seriously CCP, grow a set huh? Your game is all about a dark and gritty world, the vast majority of your player base is 18+, with most being in their late 20's early 30's and your going to CENSOR things? Code an option for us to turn off the word filter. Really. I DO NOT NEED YOU TO PROTECT ME FROM WORDS.
ROFLMAO Jezus Criminy talk about being overly anal with the censorship!
------------------------------------------------
I got married Oct. 18th. I'm on my honeymoon. Yes I brought the laptop. Yes I am playing EVE. What? |
Julius Rigel
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Posted - 2009.10.21 05:02:00 -
[68]
Quote:
CCP: Is the CSM a joke on us?
Yes.
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Vrikshaka
Yawn Corp
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Posted - 2009.10.21 07:50:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Suas
It's you. You're the worst poster on all of EVE-O.
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Cyberman Mastermind
|
Posted - 2009.10.21 07:56:00 -
[70]
Originally by: LaVista Vista
And even then, CCP can just say "No" if a stupid reason is raised.
So, what good is the CSM actually?
If all they can do is raise an issue which can be denied by CCP anyway ("stupid" being subjective), and the CSM itself can't be trusted to raise issues the majority is interested in - what do we need them for?
Does CCP actually invest money in the CSM? If so, they should instead hire someone to read the forum all day. Probably better spent that way.
--
As to troll/non-troll - if it isn't, it's poor taste anyway and another reason to stop/disband the CSM. Eve has enough drama, no need for CCP to fund even more. |
Tiny Tove
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Posted - 2009.10.21 08:26:00 -
[71]
The CSM has always been a waste of money.
We were promised that T20 could never happen again after they grant us an independent council capable of auditting the ways that CCP interacts with the Eve universe.
What we actually got was a back patting exercise for Eve Veterans, paid for of course by the 50% hike in the price of Eve that came at the same time.
As it has actually achieved nothing tangible and resulted in obvious corruption, ironic as that was what it was supposed to prevent, it should be disbanded with immediate effect.
But I'm sure a fanboy will be along shortly to shout and cry until I see things incorrectly.
---
WTB: Unwritten Forum Rules and list of posters you're not allowed to Report. |
Serpents smile
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Posted - 2009.10.21 08:59:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Tiny Tove
stuffz
You mad? 
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Da Death
Minmatar
Relentless Enterprises
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Posted - 2009.10.21 10:10:00 -
[73]
I never saw CSM as substantial. I don't think its a joke but its not serious business either.
It's just a 'dampening field' for CCP. 
á
Curse Absolution Prorator Impel T2 Mods/Drones/Ammo Manufacturer
Since 2003. |
Haraldhardrade
Amarr
Pax Amarr
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Posted - 2009.10.21 10:14:00 -
[74]
Wait, so are you fine lot trying to tell me that EVE has a CSM? And what is the purpose of this CSM, but more importantly, what have they acomplished? (lul)
Caveo of Minmatar , torva vacuus regimen of deus es plurrimi periculosus of bestia
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LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
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Posted - 2009.10.21 10:14:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Tiny Tove
We were promised that T20 could never happen again after they grant us an independent council capable of auditting the ways that CCP interacts with the Eve universe.
You need an EVE-History revision.
Back just after launch, the first CSM took place. It had nothing to do with T20, it had nothing to do with auditing.
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Abrazzar
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Posted - 2009.10.21 10:28:00 -
[76]
The CSM changed from "awesome potential" into "a sad and pathetic joke" within the first term and went downward from then on.
--------
Ideas for: Mining
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Myra2007
Shafrak Industries
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Posted - 2009.10.21 10:48:00 -
[77]
Originally by: LaVista Vista
Originally by: Tiny Tove
We were promised that T20 could never happen again after they grant us an independent council capable of auditting the ways that CCP interacts with the Eve universe.
You need an EVE-History revision.
Back just after launch, the first CSM took place. It had nothing to do with T20, it had nothing to do with auditing.
Someone care to dig up that times article again? No matter what you are refering to specifically I think the words of ccp employees count for more. The fact that in practice the csm has nothing to do with "auditing" just goes to show how ccps pr stunt has worked like a charm (thanks to people like you).
--
Originally by: Professor Slocombe
I will only buy tickets if the prize is your stuff and you leave Eve. Forever. You irritating self obsessed cretin.
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Sappho Ajhannis
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2009.10.21 11:47:00 -
[78]
I reckon that CCP always assumed the CSM would lead to player corruption once the novelty wore off.
Now when the next T20 type scandal breaks, ccp can just say to the whiners- 'We set up the CSM for you, and you turned out to be just as corrupt as us!' 
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Dors Venabily
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Posted - 2009.10.21 11:56:00 -
[79]
Who is CSM
It's quite interesting idea and really a person that posts something like that should be automatically kicked.
It is volunteering dumb nuts its not a real office and you get a free Fanfest out of it. Might as well posses the bit of integrity to actually bring up stuff that is useful to the game.
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MatrixSkye MkII
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.10.21 11:57:00 -
[80]
Come on now, be fair. LaVista Vista served his terms with respect and honor. It's these new clowns that are ruining it for the rest. I actually thought the first CSM was decent. Didn't follow up with the rest although I did continue to vote.
Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today! |
Jed Dye
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Posted - 2009.10.21 12:06:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Discrodia
My IQ dropped 10 points reading this thread.
People have an IQ in this game ?
I wouldnt have thought so in game most of the time 
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LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
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Posted - 2009.10.21 12:42:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Myra2007
SO, yeah absolutely no reference to the t20 scandal or the csm being an auditing tool from ccp themselves. Not in the slightest LOL.
The article doesn't contain the word "audit".
There's a large difference between being able to "inspect" and doing audits. Audits are done on a regular basis in order to uncover things. That's not the role of the CSM.
Both CSM1 and CSM2 were allowed to interact with Internal Affairs and lead GM's and discuss how CCP works and discuss specific "controversies". And it was quite productive if you ask me. But that's not to say that it translated very well into informing the public about what was discussed.
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Buster Gonads
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Posted - 2009.10.21 12:49:00 -
[83]
So, how did this idiot get elected in the first place? IRL you get the representatives you deserve.
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Cpt Branko
The Scope
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Posted - 2009.10.21 14:41:00 -
[84]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 21/10/2009 14:41:37
Originally by: Dirty Wizard
Can it still be called a democracy when a small handful of people with large sums of money decide which issues get raised and which are shot down?
Good question, although worth noting that we in fact do call it a democracy IRL.
Originally by: De'Veldrin
Originally by: Larkonis TrassIer
Also, y'all know it's a troll right?
I repeat my previous questions:
If this is such a troll why has Mazz not been banned and the thread locked. That's what happened to other trolls right?
You must be new to EVE forums to make such a outrageously uninformed claim. Or you're trolling.
Originally by: Abrazzar
The CSM changed from "awesome potential" into "a sad and pathetic joke" within the first term and went downward from then on.
Try "The CSM changed from a "stupid idea" into "stupid joke" within the first term and went downward from then on."
Informed developers which play the game and the assembly hall (which could use improvements, true) itself is a very good way to inform developers of issues with the game (which you have to filter through a fine mesh of creative misunderstanding, common sense, and sometimes outright ignoring, however)*.
Elected representatives are really not needed here, except for PR purposes.
*which the CSM so often fails at - pushing issues which are both only there as their own agenda and do not have popular support.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
MatrixSkye MkII
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.10.21 14:57:00 -
[85]
Edited by: MatrixSkye MkII on 21/10/2009 14:59:29
Cpt Branko, it is your opinion that the CSM was a stupid idea. Personally, I think it was a genuine attempt from CCP to reach its playerbase and allow us to be part of the decision-making process, even if in a very limited way. But hell, I don't know of many companies out there that even allow its customers to part-take in such a direct role. And I think the first term (and even maybe 2nd term?) was a pretty damn good CSM, everything else considered. But the clowns being elected, in my opinion, are the ones that are making the whole CSM look like a bunch of rtards cashing in at the expense of the entire playerbase.
And if that's the direction the CSM is taking then might as well dissolve them so that their resources can be put to better use elsewhere.
Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today! |
Dramaticus
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.10.21 15:15:00 -
[86]
maybe you guys should stop electing gimmick women like her and that dumb dutch chick.
anyways the CSM has been pretty valuable even if it didn't give you an 8th launcher slot on your drake or whatever other dumb pubbie ideas have been brought forth.
Please don't use RL pictuers of players in Sig without permission. - WeatherMan |
JuicyCakes
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Posted - 2009.10.21 15:24:00 -
[87]
Edited by: JuicyCakes on 21/10/2009 15:25:39
@OP
I'm not 100% sure, but I believe http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1200389 is an attempt at sarcasm with all the "HARD WORKING AMERICAN" stuff (what America politicians say to score ego points with the stereotypical blue-collar worker) .
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Tiny Tove
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Posted - 2009.10.23 10:16:00 -
[88]
Originally by: LaVista Vista
Originally by: Myra2007
SO, yeah absolutely no reference to the t20 scandal or the csm being an auditing tool from ccp themselves. Not in the slightest LOL.
The article doesn't contain the word "audit".
That is the weakest arguement I have ever heard from anybody, anywhere. It's even worse than picking up on spelling errors when you no longer have leg to stand on.
We're no stranger to CSM fanboiz lying to project a positive image, they're just unfortunate that external sources are always on standby to prove you wrong time and time again.
No matter how many fanboiz project the same lie, no matter how many Devs pump drivel into your heads at Fanfest, the truth will never go away.
---
WTB: Unwritten Forum Rules and list of posters you're not allowed to Report. |
Winters Chill
Amarr
Sinister Purpose
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Posted - 2009.10.23 10:57:00 -
[89]
10/10 for thread title.
I have no faith in the CSM other than to give forum personalities and large alliance members a free holiday to iceland, where they get to talk about thier hobby and legitimize ideas CCP already had in 2005.
/cynical
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LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
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Posted - 2009.10.23 12:52:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Tiny Tove
That is the weakest arguement I have ever heard from anybody, anywhere. It's even worse than picking up on spelling errors when you no longer have leg to stand on.
We're no stranger to CSM fanboiz lying to project a positive image, they're just unfortunate that external sources are always on standby to prove you wrong time and time again.
No matter how many fanboiz project the same lie, no matter how many Devs pump drivel into your heads at Fanfest, the truth will never go away.
That was probably the weakest comeback I have seen in a while.
You ignore my argument and take a statement out of context. Wow! I'm clearly defeated here.
You would have been better off by not even replying.
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Tiny Tove
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Posted - 2009.10.23 13:31:00 -
[91]
Originally by: LaVista Vista
You ignore my argument and take a statement out of context. Wow! I'm clearly defeated here.
You would have been better off by not even replying.
You over estimate the gravity of that which you think of as your arguement. Yu only actually ever needed to read what CCP promised and compare it with what CCP delivered, and to take of the Rose Tinted Glasses and this would be over already.
Get over it. We were lied to by CCP. I understand that your emotional dependence on CCP excludes you from seeing it, knowing this can you limit your responses to towing the company line instead of pretending you have your own, that way nobody will ever need to reply to you.
---
WTB: Unwritten Forum Rules and list of posters you're not allowed to Report. |
LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
|
Posted - 2009.10.23 13:42:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Tiny Tove
Originally by: LaVista Vista
You ignore my argument and take a statement out of context. Wow! I'm clearly defeated here.
You would have been better off by not even replying.
You over estimate the gravity of that which you think of as your arguement. Yu only actually ever needed to read what CCP promised and compare it with what CCP delivered, and to take of the Rose Tinted Glasses and this would be over already.
Get over it. We were lied to by CCP. I understand that your emotional dependence on CCP excludes you from seeing it, knowing this can you limit your responses to towing the company line instead of pretending you have your own, that way nobody will ever need to reply to you.
Resorting to ad hominem, are we?
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Tiny Tove
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Posted - 2009.10.23 14:01:00 -
[93]
Edited by: Tiny Tove on 23/10/2009 14:02:54
Originally by: LaVista Vista
Resorting to ad hominem, are we?
You appear to be using buzz word bingo. Sadly you've seen the words Ad Hominem some place and decided you know what it means and decided that it's an argument winner to say.
Well it's not. Especially when you've used it incorrectly. I didn't say the CSM must be useless because you are useless, I said the CSM is useless because it achieves nothing and it not related to the purpose for which were invited to pay for it.
The part where you become involved with my reponses is your inability to process the information offered by all available source, most particularly all the sources (including CCP original statements they conveniently ignored interestingly) that do not agree with your current position, this is closed minded reasoning and largely irrelevant.
This is entirely separate from the CSM's inability to perform the functions for which is was originally claimed to be intended.
Of course understanding your false use of "ad hominen" as a thought terminating cliche requires you to read and comprehend provided sources and rationales, though we're here because you have proved thus far that you are completely unwilling to do that.
---
WTB: Unwritten Forum Rules and list of posters you're not allowed to Report. |
Benedict Carol
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Posted - 2009.10.23 14:28:00 -
[94]
This will be dealt with.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.10.23 14:40:00 -
[95]
This whole thread is an unbroken trainwreck of fail.
Special Award for Tiny Tove's use of logical fallacies.
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LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
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Posted - 2009.10.23 14:53:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Tiny Tove
Well it's not. Especially when you've used it incorrectly. I didn't say the CSM must be useless because you are useless, I said the CSM is useless because it achieves nothing and it not related to the purpose for which were invited to pay for it.
That's not what I'm saying either. Where did you read that?
I'm pointing out the fact that you ignore my arguments. When confronted with it, you argue against them by pointing out that I have been on the CSM and stuff like that.
That's exactly an ad hominem. Nice try though.
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Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators
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Posted - 2009.10.23 14:55:00 -
[97]
Edited by: Le Skunk on 23/10/2009 14:56:01
Originally by: LaVista Vista
It doesn't matter for the process if money was exchanged or not to have an issue raised.
If the issue isn't worth raising, the majority of the CSM will vote it down. The exchange of ISK doesn't make a difference.
Paying ISK isn't equal to instant elevation to CCP.
If you are, for the sake of this argument, agreeing that the process of exchanging money for an issue being raised by a csm member would indeed have an effect on the process but your argument is that the effect would be countered by the other (non bribed) members of the Council, then the simple conclusion is to buy off 5 members of the council - thus ensuring the issue is raised to CCP level.
Either it should be allowed or it shouldnt be allowed. Dont argue that it shouldnt be allowed, but it is, but thats alright as it wouldnt happen.
SKUNK
(o)
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LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
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Posted - 2009.10.23 15:37:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Le Skunk
Edited by: Le Skunk on 23/10/2009 14:56:01
Originally by: LaVista Vista
It doesn't matter for the process if money was exchanged or not to have an issue raised.
If the issue isn't worth raising, the majority of the CSM will vote it down. The exchange of ISK doesn't make a difference.
Paying ISK isn't equal to instant elevation to CCP.
If you are, for the sake of this argument, agreeing that the process of exchanging money for an issue being raised by a csm member would indeed have an effect on the process but your argument is that the effect would be countered by the other (non bribed) members of the Council, then the simple conclusion is to buy off 5 members of the council - thus ensuring the issue is raised to CCP level.
Either it should be allowed or it shouldnt be allowed. Dont argue that it shouldnt be allowed, but it is, but thats alright as it wouldnt happen.
SKUNK
I totally see your point. But buying an "issue" seems rather pointless to me.
Why would you do it? If you have an issue that's reasonable and is a concern to others as well, it will be raised. Doesn't matter if ISK was involved or not.
If it's a questionable issue, like "BOOST MY T2 BPO PLZ" and 5 members of the council is bribed, CCP will go "Get the **** out".
What is the worst thing that can happen? I still think that's it is morally questionable. But I don't see it to be of as big of "issue" as some make it out to be.
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Benedict Carol
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Posted - 2009.10.23 15:43:00 -
[99]
Originally by: LaVista Vista
Originally by: Le Skunk
Edited by: Le Skunk on 23/10/2009 14:56:01
Originally by: LaVista Vista
It doesn't matter for the process if money was exchanged or not to have an issue raised.
If the issue isn't worth raising, the majority of the CSM will vote it down. The exchange of ISK doesn't make a difference.
Paying ISK isn't equal to instant elevation to CCP.
If you are, for the sake of this argument, agreeing that the process of exchanging money for an issue being raised by a csm member would indeed have an effect on the process but your argument is that the effect would be countered by the other (non bribed) members of the Council, then the simple conclusion is to buy off 5 members of the council - thus ensuring the issue is raised to CCP level.
Either it should be allowed or it shouldnt be allowed. Dont argue that it shouldnt be allowed, but it is, but thats alright as it wouldnt happen.
SKUNK
I totally see your point. But buying an "issue" seems rather pointless to me.
Why would you do it? If you have an issue that's reasonable and is a concern to others as well, it will be raised. Doesn't matter if ISK was involved or not.
If it's a questionable issue, like "BOOST MY T2 BPO PLZ" and 5 members of the council is bribed, CCP will go "Get the **** out".
What is the worst thing that can happen? I still think that's it is morally questionable. But I don't see it to be of as big of "issue" as some make it out to be.
It's only pointless until it's not .
The CSM is at the very best irrelevant to most of the playerbase and at worst an ineffectually corrupt body.
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LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
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Posted - 2009.10.23 15:45:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Benedict Carol
It's only pointless until it's not .
The CSM is at the very best irrelevant to most of the playerbase and at worst an ineffectually corrupt body.
Dear poster:
Do you use the skill queue?
The skill queue is certainly not irrelevant to most of the playerbase. And you clearly have no idea how much convincing it took CCP to get it 1. Actually agreed to 2. Pushed into a top position on the backlog.
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Droog 1
Black Rise Inbreds
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Posted - 2009.10.23 15:45:00 -
[101]
WTT 60 day gtc for 125m/b bandwidth Eos boost. Reply here.
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Gone'Postal
Naviworks Inc
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Posted - 2009.10.23 16:01:00 -
[102]
Originally by: LaVista Vista
Dear poster:
Do you use the skill queue?
The skill queue is certainly not irrelevant to most of the playerbase. And you clearly have no idea how much convincing it took CCP to get it 1. Actually agreed to 2. Pushed into a top position on the backlog.
Do you mean the queue that was on the drawing board for years before the CSM even came to rise? Yeah, I can see it taking a lot of convincing... You asked them to do something they were already doing/thinking of doing.
Also, We have your word about the backlog, tbh I think that when they cut ghost training, they made the Queue to easy the mass posts about it.
Sorry but the CSM is a joke, and as detailed above, it's nothing like it was orginaly claimed to be by CCP.
Originally by: Rells
Without the carebears, the economy would be dead.
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Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators
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Posted - 2009.10.23 16:03:00 -
[103]
Edited by: Le Skunk on 23/10/2009 16:04:56
Originally by: LaVista Vista
I totally see your point. But buying an "issue" seems rather pointless to me.
Why would you do it? If you have an issue that's reasonable and is a concern to others as well, it will be raised. Doesn't matter if ISK was involved or not.
If it's a questionable issue, like "BOOST MY T2 BPO PLZ" and 5 members of the council is bribed, CCP will go "Get the **** out".
What is the worst thing that can happen? I still think that's it is morally questionable. But I don't see it to be of as big of "issue" as some make it out to be.
Oh I totally agree its not worth frothing at the mouth and thrashing around for, but as a theoretical discussion point its quite interesting. Its the potential to exploit the system that upsets people.
* When you have CSM members (voted in on the pirate vote) "leaving" (with a boot shaped footprint on their back) after "abuses" of the market via knowledge gained during a csm meeting,
* When you have vice presidents and 2 time CSM members (voted in on the carebear vote) being caught up in massive Faction Warfare exploit allegations.
* When the CSM members themselves push to have their statutory 2 terms serving maximum limit removed (more free vacations dont ya know )depsite no support from the player base they represent.
* When the whole idea of the CSM - that of a mechanism whereby the playerbase could make sure CCP were acting above board (T20 incident, new york times interview with Hilmar iirc) was not put into place.
* When bloc alliance voting ensures youve got the same parroting idiots (albeit it with a different name, face, and neckbeard) in power each council.
* When you have the farcical goons vs chairman scenes of the first council, where the chairman was arguable bullied and abused by members of his own council and their corpmates in public.
* Even when the system does work, and issues are put to CCP by the elected members, it takes months for the players to receive the responses to these questions. (still awaiting the minutes from the last ccp-csm meeting as we speak)
* You say that "If you have an issue that's reasonable and is a concern to others as well, it will be raised"
Well that is patently false as well. The "speed nerf unnerfing" issue was the most supported issue by the playbase, garnering 1000s of supports.
The CSMs response to the most supported issue of its history was to VOTE DOWN the issue, and not take it to CCP. In its place was an issue requesting
musical instruments in ambulation
A moderately amusing tongue in cheek issue, but one that really showed the contempt the CSM has for the players once they have got their free jolly in iceland out of the way.
* So when you look at all the above issues (there are many more) are you suprised that people are "overreacting" to a possible joke thread - and the subsequent defense of it by previous council members.
The CSM stinks. It stunk from day one and continues to offend the nostrils of honest men and women to this day.
SKUNK
(o)
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LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
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Posted - 2009.10.23 16:13:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Gone'Postal
Do you mean the queue that was on the drawing board for years before the CSM even came to rise? Yeah, I can see it taking a lot of convincing... You asked them to do something they were already doing/thinking of doing.
No.
When we talked to CCP on the first trip to Iceland, they were convinced that a skill queue would make people play less, because they wouldn't have to log in so often.
The act of logging in, in their mind, would also cause people to play.
Talking to them about it a few times convinced them that it wouldn't be the case. Hence, we now have a skill queue.
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Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
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Posted - 2009.10.23 16:24:00 -
[105]
Originally by: LaVista Vista
Originally by: Gone'Postal
Do you mean the queue that was on the drawing board for years before the CSM even came to rise? Yeah, I can see it taking a lot of convincing... You asked them to do something they were already doing/thinking of doing.
No.
When we talked to CCP on the first trip to Iceland, they were convinced that a skill queue would make people play less, because they wouldn't have to log in so often.
The act of logging in, in their mind, would also cause people to play.
Talking to them about it a few times convinced them that it wouldn't be the case. Hence, we now have a skill queue.
While I have no info on the actual negotiations and convincing needed to do it, everything CCP posted as a reply to the request to implement this feature supports LaVista Vista. CCP may have had the idea a long time ago, but they also had convinced themselves about its dire reprecussions. The feature itself isn't that complicated to take years to implement. So it is much more likely, that it took people who weren't already locked into CCPs way of thinking, to give the push that got it finally implemented.
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Gone'Postal
Naviworks Inc
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Posted - 2009.10.23 16:27:00 -
[106]
Originally by: LaVista Vista
Originally by: Gone'Postal
Do you mean the queue that was on the drawing board for years before the CSM even came to rise? Yeah, I can see it taking a lot of convincing... You asked them to do something they were already doing/thinking of doing.
No.
When we talked to CCP on the first trip to Iceland, they were convinced that a skill queue would make people play less, because they wouldn't have to log in so often.
The act of logging in, in their mind, would also cause people to play.
Talking to them about it a few times convinced them that it wouldn't be the case. Hence, we now have a skill queue.
Well as it was on teh drawing board for years, What would you rename the "Drawing board" to?
What your saying is that, While it was on teh drawing board for everyone to see, it was infact not going to be added (until the amazing CSM appeared and confronted the almighty CCP and changed there wizdom), so that either makes CCP looking like a bunch of lying monkeys, or your(the CSM) the lying monkey(s).
I'm interested to know which one it is?
Originally by: Rells
Without the carebears, the economy would be dead.
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Benedict Carol
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Posted - 2009.10.23 16:29:00 -
[107]
Originally by: LaVista Vista
Originally by: Benedict Carol
It's only pointless until it's not .
The CSM is at the very best irrelevant to most of the playerbase and at worst an ineffectually corrupt body.
Dear poster:
Do you use the skill queue?
The skill queue is certainly not irrelevant to most of the playerbase. And you clearly have no idea how much convincing it took CCP to get it 1. Actually agreed to 2. Pushed into a top position on the backlog.
Irrelevant != noteworthy.
Nice try - how about the speed nerf unnerf? Most supported idea in the history of CSM and what happened?
Here's an idea - how about giving us a body that represents the player base rather than whichever group decides to take a page out of 4chan's playbook? How about giving us a group that does things transparently without hope for massive in-game profit?
The truth is the only reason anyone would bother to go through the hassle of being in the CSM is for metagaming/profit/e-peen prestige, and frankly that means that the body is doomed to be what it is - making it irrelevant to most of us.
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Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators
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Posted - 2009.10.23 16:30:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Destination SkillQueue
While I have no info on the actual negotiations and convincing needed to do it, everything CCP posted as a reply to the request to implement this feature supports LaVista Vista. CCP may have had the idea a long time ago, but they also had convinced themselves about its dire reprecussions. The feature itself isn't that complicated to take years to implement. So it is much more likely, that it took people who weren't already locked into CCPs way of thinking, to give the push that got it finally implemented.
Should we be happy with the few bones tossed down from the table whilst the banquet goes on overhead?
Credit to the CSM for pushing the skill queue issue - but one success does not exonerate them for the overwhelming list of failures.
SKUNK
(o)
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations
Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2009.10.23 16:33:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Benedict Carol
Nice try - how about the speed nerf unnerf? Most supported idea in the history of CSM and what happened?
CCP's technical requirements trumped the wishes of some.
———
“If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡…
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.”
— Karath Piki |
Tiny Tove
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Posted - 2009.10.23 16:35:00 -
[110]
Originally by: LaVista Vista
That's not what I'm saying either. Where did you read that?
When you said that I am attacking the man and not the argument. Ad Hominem.
Originally by: LaVista Vista
I'm pointing out the fact that you ignore my arguments.
I didn't ignore your arguments. Your arguements are demonstrably wrong. They're dealt with.
Originally by: LaVista Vista
When confronted with it, you argue against them by pointing out that I have been on the CSM and stuff like that.
I don't know you from Adam, you're just another guy on the internet using words he doesn't understand and pretending he has a valid point for something he is emotionally dependent on. If you were on the CSM, that would be highly appropriate considering your blinkered objectivity, which is as wide a scope as the CSM is any good for. And getting heads up information on things to pass on to their selected circle of friends. And a free holiday.
Originally by: LaVista Vista
That's exactly an ad hominem. Nice try though.
No, it's still not Ad Hominem, no matter how many times you say it is. And thank you, my tries are always nice.
---
WTB: Unwritten Forum Rules and list of posters you're not allowed to Report. |
Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators
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Posted - 2009.10.23 16:42:00 -
[111]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Benedict Carol
Nice try - how about the speed nerf unnerf? Most supported idea in the history of CSM and what happened?
CCP's technical requirements trumped the wishes of some.
Incorrect. The issue was not forwarded by the CSM for CCPS consideration. CCP therefore were conveniently not put in the position of having to respond.
Put aside your feeling either for or against the speed nerf, its ancient history now. However, what is still fresh is it is an example of the CSMs refusal to follow the will of the people it represents on its most supported issue. This is undeniable.
SKUNK
(o)
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Seriah Rezin
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.10.23 16:53:00 -
[112]
Solution: Elect me. I don't give a damn about ISK.
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LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
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Posted - 2009.10.23 16:54:00 -
[113]
Originally by: Tiny Tove
Originally by: LaVista Vista
That's not what I'm saying either. Where did you read that?
When you said that I am attacking the man and not the argument. Ad Hominem.
Originally by: LaVista Vista
I'm pointing out the fact that you ignore my arguments.
I didn't ignore your arguments. Your arguements are demonstrably wrong. They're dealt with.
Originally by: LaVista Vista
When confronted with it, you argue against them by pointing out that I have been on the CSM and stuff like that.
I don't know you from Adam, you're just another guy on the internet using words he doesn't understand and pretending he has a valid point for something he is emotionally dependent on. If you were on the CSM, that would be highly appropriate considering your blinkered objectivity, which is as wide a scope as the CSM is any good for. And getting heads up information on things to pass on to their selected circle of friends. And a free holiday.
Originally by: LaVista Vista
That's exactly an ad hominem. Nice try though.
No, it's still not Ad Hominem, no matter how many times you say it is. And thank you, my tries are always nice.
It's rather clear to me that you have no idea what Ad Hominem is.
Let me quote everybody's friend, Wikipedia, for you!
Quote:
Ad hominem circumstantial points out that someone is in circumstances such that he is disposed to take a particular position. Ad hominem circumstantial constitutes an attack on the bias of a source. This is fallacious because a disposition to make a certain argument does not make the argument false; this overlaps with the genetic fallacy (an argument that a claim is incorrect due to its source)
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Dani Leone
Gallente
How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb
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Posted - 2009.10.23 17:15:00 -
[114]
Originally by: Le Skunk
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Benedict Carol
Nice try - how about the speed nerf unnerf? Most supported idea in the history of CSM and what happened?
CCP's technical requirements trumped the wishes of some.
Incorrect. The issue was not forwarded by the CSM for CCPS consideration. CCP therefore were conveniently not put in the position of having to respond.
Put aside your feeling either for or against the speed nerf, its ancient history now. However, what is still fresh is it is an example of the CSMs refusal to follow the will of the people it represents on its most supported issue. This is undeniable.
SKUNK
It would be cool to be able to play the violin in a spacestation though, wouldn't it??
But to be serious for a mo, what happened to the idea that if a certain issue garnered enough support it would automatically be put to CCP for consideration? (been away for a few months and just beginning to catch up)
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Benedict Carol
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Posted - 2009.10.23 17:35:00 -
[115]
Originally by: Dani Leone
Originally by: Le Skunk
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Benedict Carol
Nice try - how about the speed nerf unnerf? Most supported idea in the history of CSM and what happened?
CCP's technical requirements trumped the wishes of some.
Incorrect. The issue was not forwarded by the CSM for CCPS consideration. CCP therefore were conveniently not put in the position of having to respond.
Put aside your feeling either for or against the speed nerf, its ancient history now. However, what is still fresh is it is an example of the CSMs refusal to follow the will of the people it represents on its most supported issue. This is undeniable.
SKUNK
But to be serious for a mo, what happened to the idea that if a certain issue garnered enough support it would automatically be put to CCP for consideration? (been away for a few months and just beginning to catch up)
*mutters something about the corruption of precious bodily fluids* |
LO'''''''''''''''''''''L
Amarr
Robber Barons Inc.
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.10.23 23:45:00 -
[116]
Edited by: LO''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''L on 23/10/2009 23:45:35
oh no guys, mazz is going to ruin EVE.
http://wiki.eveonline.com/wiki/Replace_ingame_titan_models_with_monster_trucks
___________
PROUD MEMBER OF ROBBER BARONS INC. |
Ben Derindar
Dirty Deeds Corp.
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Posted - 2009.10.24 02:27:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Le Skunk
The "speed nerf unnerfing" issue was the most supported issue by the playbase, garnering 1000s of supports.
The CSMs response to the most supported issue of its history was to VOTE DOWN the issue, and not take it to CCP.
I was at that meeting as an acting alternate. I was pro-nerf myself, but I chose to represent instead as best I could.
Just wanted to point out that not everyone involved in the CSM is/was out for themselves, although some obviously are/were, I agree.
Originally by: Le Skunk
When the whole idea of the CSM - that of a mechanism whereby the playerbase could make sure CCP were acting above board (T20 incident, new york times interview with Hilmar iirc) was not put into place.
This is my biggest beef with the CSM as it is now, too. I would happily play volunteer watchdog, but I'm not so interested in playing volunteer dev.
/Ben
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Tiny Tove
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Posted - 2009.10.26 11:57:00 -
[118]
Originally by: LaVista Vista
I'm moving the goalposts because I can't win
Quote:
Ad hominem circumstantial points out that someone is in circumstances such that he is disposed to take a particular position. Ad hominem circumstantial constitutes an attack on the bias of a source. This is fallacious because a disposition to make a certain argument does not make the argument false; this overlaps with the genetic fallacy (an argument that a claim is incorrect due to its source)
I'm sorry, I thought you said Ad Hominem, not Ad Hominem Circumstantial.
Let me scroll back to see my error. Oh wait....
Sort yourself out, you're a joke.
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WTB: Unwritten Forum Rules and list of posters you're not allowed to Report. |
Droog 1
Black Rise Inbreds
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Posted - 2009.10.26 12:14:00 -
[119]
The CSM is nothing but a poorly organised publicity stunt.
CCP make the rules and their attitude has always been 'if you don't like it gtfo'. Remember that when you vote for the CSM candidate that 'best serves your interests and playstyle'.
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Nuts Nougat
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.10.26 14:02:00 -
[120]
Originally by: LO'''''''''''''''''''''L
Edited by: LO''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''L on 24/10/2009 00:05:25
oh no guys, mazz is going to ruin EVE.
http://wiki.eveonline.com/wiki/Replace_ingame_titan_models_with_monster_trucks
the thread it's from is even locked, we have no place to complain!
Votes well spent.
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Crotch Goblin
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Posted - 2009.10.26 14:21:00 -
[121]
The CSM reminds me of the Obama administration. Bunch of mindless monkeys. And for all of you actually raging just stfu and stop making such long posts. In other news, Lark grew up on a sheep farm and went to an all boys school and was on the swim team. He loved the "backstroke".
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Mr Epeen
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Posted - 2009.10.26 14:28:00 -
[122]
Originally by: Havohej
From this point on, proper syntax for /doublefacepalm shall be "Matrix and Malcanis, on the forums."
ROFL!!!
I remember that episode.
Good stuff
Mr Epeen
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