| Pages: [1] 2 3 :: one page |
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Chunky Milk
   |
Posted - 2009.10.22 01:27:00 -
[1]
This is in relation to small gang pvp - low sec or null sec, but 5-10 guys max.
Lets begin
"The myrmidon doesn't need tackle as tacklers in the small gang should be doing tackle"
Answer: Tacklers in small gangs are there for the initial tackle, a gang that relies solely on interceptors for tackle is a fail gang as they will die very quickly.
One thing it seems PVE'ers don't understand is that in small gang warfare using your *actual* tank is a last resort. Maneuverability, versatility and options are your best tank.
That is
1: Avoiding being hit all together
Why the shield myrmy sucks at this - It is a sitting brick without a mwd, once primaried it has no where to go and must take all incomming dps. It's shield extenders furthermore raise its sig radius meaning that any BS will now be doing full dps on the Myrmy where if it were armor tanked it would receive less dps from large guns.
Why WEB/SCRAM/MWD are important in to survival in small gang pvp -
Web: If you are primaried in small gang pvp generally you want to get away from the incomming dps, you want to negate the dps coming at you. PVPers consistently use web's defensively. That is when primaried they will burn in the other direction from the other gangs main dps ship and they will web them. If for example they are a blaster boat this will mean you have effectively taken away that ships DPS off you. Again avoidance of dps is the best tank you can have.
A web will also allow you to easier hit their tacklers if you are stranded and pointed thus another defensive measure.
Another web on your gangs primary allows the larger guns in your gang to hit the target more effectively meaning a higher chance of survival as your enemy is killed off much quicker.
Throwing a web on various targets helps eliminate your enemies maneuverability which is important if you want to take them down quickly. If your able to keep them close then any close range dps in your gang can get on them much faster meaning a higher chance of survival for your gang.
SCRAM:
First and foremost it turns of their MWD.
This is extremely useful both defensively and offensively -
Offensive - Means that your target is getting no where fast, meaning your larger guns will be able to kill of the enemy quicker resulting in a higher chance of survivability overall. Also helps kill of tacklers 10000% quicker then without one.
Defensive - If you are primaried putting a scram onto any close range dps targets will allow you to move away from them thus keeping out of their optimal, thus receiving either less or no dps. Remember avoiding dps is the best tank. This used properly along with a web will allow you to effectively take two of the enemy gangs dps ships out of the fight against you.
MWD:
Ill say it again: Maneuverability in small gangs is king.
Offensive: If you are fighting any sought of decent pvp gang they will be maneuverable. They will attempt to split your gang up. If you don't have a MWD then they will be successful.
MWD will also help get you into optimal. Burn back to gates. Burn away from gates. Help split up their gang so you can pick them off.
Defensive.
MWD is an ungodly defensive measure. If you are primaried used along with the web and scram many times you will be able to avoid dps by MWDing away from the fight. Any decent pvper will quickly look at who actually has a point on him and take them out, or get out of their scram range using the web/scram and then MWD away. In small gangs avoiding dps is the best tank.
To summaries - Adding an extra 400dps local tank to your ship simply means you can tank one more cruiser... If taking on another small gang 5-10 guys - the extra 400 dps tank won't mean **** when your a sitting brick. Furthermore due to sig radius large guns now do full damage on you.
You are also sacrificing a huge range of dps avoiding options aswell as your GTFO (get the fu$k out) option while lessening the effective dps your gang can put out by no running scram/web
|
Chunky Milk
|
Posted - 2009.10.22 01:33:00 -
[2]
Although I've mentioned all those reasons i think it comes down to this:
You are 10x more effective at helping out your gang then if you were shield tanked.
Also before you reply think of this - Would it be ok if all BC's and BS in your gang wern't running any tackle? (If this happened the enemy only has to kill of your cepters and they are then free to warp in and out) If the rest of your gang can't do it, then why is it ok for you to do so?
That &:
Shield myrmy = sitting brick. 5 Bc's shooting a sitting brick = 2-2500DPS - Your 900dps tank won't mean **** anyway. Thus avoiding dps through the various methods described (web/scram/mwd) is any decent pvpers best tank.
Thanks and hopefully i made some sense :)
I would also like some pvpers to reply. Furthermore if your are a PVE'er i honestly don't care for your EFT warrioring so please speak from PVP experience if you are going to reply.
|
Thingymawotzit
Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams
Negative Ten.
|
Posted - 2009.10.22 01:40:00 -
[3]
Couldn't agree more. Shield tank myrms are ghey 
|
el Sabor
|
Posted - 2009.10.22 01:40:00 -
[4]
Oh you're talking about the bad shield myrm! I like the shield extended gank myrm!
Passive myrms are pretty selfish fleet fits though, yes. Focus on your own survivability while putting out **** poor DPS.
|
Herzog Wolfhammer
Gallente
Aliastra
|
Posted - 2009.10.22 01:43:00 -
[5]
I saw a Myrm get primaried in FW once. Started getting hit just as it began to turn away from the danger to run.
It was destroyed before completing the turn.
|
Chunky Milk
|
Posted - 2009.10.22 01:45:00 -
[6]
Herzog what's your point?
Are you saying if it had a shield tank it wouldn't have died? Your saying that an extra 400dps tank would have had it live?
Guessing the answers no, so what's your point?
My point though, is if flown properly its chances of survival are much higher if it can avoid incoming dps then being a sitting brick with about as much extra tank over the Armor rep myrm to tank a single cruiser....
|
Omara Otawan
|
Posted - 2009.10.22 01:50:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Omara Otawan on 22/10/2009 01:54:18
So you wrote all those lines of text to tell people a passive shield tank sucks in pvp?
True, but useless topic, competent pvpers will actually buffer tank. And a shield buffer myrm can very well fit MWD and a disruptor.
Not that much EHP as a 1600mm plate fit, but way faster, more agile and more dps output. Personally I think especially for small gang pvp shield buffers are way superior to armor buffers (or active tanks).
|
Chunky Milk
|
Posted - 2009.10.22 01:57:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Chunky Milk on 22/10/2009 02:05:01
Edited by: Chunky Milk on 22/10/2009 01:58:37
Well no theres a thread out there with about 9 pages of why a shield myrm is better then a armor tanked one. It had alot of people agreeing =/ thus i thought i would rebut.
*I'm bored at uni so thought I would write it out*
The one they were proposing was more or less all mid slots field with shield stuff.*
Sounds like you got experience with it then, fitting a disrupter & mwd is your tank any better then an armor tanked one then? Also if all your lows a shield power relays, then i can't imagine you can run your mwd....at all really =/
Edit: You edited while i replied, kk well you just said it, it has less buffer. Furthermore my capping out using the mwd with a shield buffer still applies.
Also buffer/active comes down to personal preference really in small gang pvp. Both are quiet useful.
Just trying to get rid of the non-pvper miss conception that your DPS tank is the be all end all of how good a ships survivability is in small gang pvp.
|
Eseay
|
Posted - 2009.10.22 02:02:00 -
[9]
on another note, the shield cane works very well :)
|
Omara Otawan
|
Posted - 2009.10.22 02:06:00 -
[10]
No shield power relays ofc, that would be silly. Lows are magstabs, a DC2 and speed mods.
Basically you fit it like you do any shield buffered gank BC, just you have 3 mid slots to play with instead of 2 
And capping out while MWDing isnt a problem, that applies to like 85% of ships in eve.
When I'm thinking small gang its somewhere around 5-8 ships involved, active tanks are pretty much completely useless there given the amount of dps you will be facing.
So this just leaves buffer tanks, and given agility and speed is so important for that size of gang imo shield buffers are the way to go, you might get a bit more buffer with plated trimarked armor tanks (but really need slaves to make it worth the tradeoffs), but you pay with damage output and maneuverability.
|
Thingymawotzit
Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams
Negative Ten.
|
Posted - 2009.10.22 02:14:00 -
[11]
 Originally by: Omara Otawan
Edited by: Omara Otawan on 22/10/2009 02:06:58
No shield power relays ofc, that would be silly. Lows are magstabs, a DC2 and speed mods.
Basically you fit it like you do any shield buffered gank BC, just you have 3 mid slots to play with instead of 2
And capping out while MWDing isnt a problem, that applies to like 85% of ships in eve.
When I'm thinking small gang its somewhere around 5-8 ships in gang, active tanks are pretty much completely useless there given the amount of dps you will be facing.
So this just leaves buffer tanks, and given agility and speed is so important for that size of gang imo shield buffers are the way to go, you might get a bit more buffer with plated trimarked armor tanks (but really need slaves to make it worth the tradeoffs), but you pay with damage output and maneuverability.
Your an idiot if your "Damage Fitting" a myrm. Its meant to tank and it does that well.
FLY A BRUTIX FFS! It does way more DPS than a shield myrm and has very similiar EHP.
|
Chunky Milk
|
Posted - 2009.10.22 02:19:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Chunky Milk on 22/10/2009 02:20:23
Rgr -
Though you are talking about a different type of set up tbh.
I guess i should (and will when i get home) link the thread i was talking about.
Basically it says that a shield myrm is better because it has a better tank 900 dps or so. (It uses all shield power relays etc)
The cap out problem i was asking about though was if you were using all shield power relays to get the 900dps tank, as cap power relays take away from your recharge.
Gank fitted Myrm is defiantly possible, like the cane. But fitting the shield Myrm passively without tackle for max dps tank is what's really stupid =/
& about the active tank, guess depends how you fly your ship - I still like a bit of active tank on my ships as i hate dying when I'm in structure but all they have left is some piece of crap i could tank with a single repper.
Edit: *Also what the guy above me said - If you want a dps ship you may aswell go the Brutix, does a better job then a shield buffererd gank myrm.*
|
Omara Otawan
|
Posted - 2009.10.22 02:30:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Omara Otawan on 22/10/2009 02:33:27
Originally by: Thingymawotzit
Your an idiot if your "Damage Fitting" a myrm. Its meant to tank and it does that well.
FLY A BRUTIX FFS! It does way more DPS than a shield myrm and has very similiar EHP.
The Brutix will gain an extra 12% dps, at point blank range. At drone ranges, the myrm does 200% of the damage a Brutix can dish out, plus has an additional 75m¦ bay for utility drones.
The Myrm gets a 20% EHP advantage over the Brutix (no, thats not "very similar").
If you can live without the speedmods you can throw in some res mods for armor, which will give you a 32% edge in EHP over the Brutix. So its either that or a 18% speed advantage, and I guess I dont need to tell you speed is important for blaster boats...
Also, you're an idiot for not being able to tell the difference between "your" and "you're".
|
Chunky Milk
|
Posted - 2009.10.22 02:33:00 -
[14]
This isn't a brutix vs myrm thread btw:
But the brutix would generally be active tanked also, so EHP doesn't mean so much. (This isn't a EHP vs Active thread either)
Both have their advantages - To be fair alot of engagements in small gang pvp happen at point blank range. & In low sec Drone dps can be annoying if your tanking gate guns also...
Still - This is a "Shield myrms suck thread" ;)
|
Proxyyyy
Caldari
initial.
|
Posted - 2009.10.22 02:34:00 -
[15]
I agree with most of what you have stated.
I come from a Piracy/Solo background im less intrested in small gang tbh.
What disturbs me the most about this new shield extender "hype" on the ships like the (hurricane, harbinger, Mrymidon, brutix) is that they completely thorw away the ability to web and immobilize. This new trend was mainly brought about by scrams that made more med slot deficient races like caldari/Amarr more viable "Because all you need is a scram" like the ferox and Prophecy/Cyclone to a lesser extent because there range and speed compensate.
I have flown the cyclone and ferox before the "hype" in a few engagments and one thing is clear "they are defensive ships" without the ability to "web" your prospective targets must want to engage you. What do i mean by this? Look at the brutix for example it is an almost purely offensive ship it has the ability to almost fully immobilize a target with the use of WEBs, SCRAMs and a MWD to reach the prospective victem. Under webs frigates find it hard to dictate ranges to either come under your tracking or get away from your dps.
This is by far a stark contrast to the (Ferox) which relies on the willingness or stupidity of your opponents or opponent to just tackle you at like 6k and take almost no damage while you get pwned. This is not the same for the Proph, Cyclone which have long range weapon systems. The brutix doesnt have this problem for the formention reasons. but i do not agree i think these shield buffer fits excel in large fleets but the smaller the fleet less so...
This also raises another issue; WARP SCRAMBLERS
I faced a few jag pilots in my harpy and one thing is clear "which i find funny cause it would defeat the intended use of the ship". Most Jag pilots dont seem to fit webs anymore. This new revelation has ammused me none stop because i fit webs/scram/ab/mse on my harpy and jaguar. The abillity for the jag to dictate range against ship that way out dps the jag was the benifit of flying it no? Now i find it easy to kill jag pilots because of there new love "scrams" over webs which was not to long ago a must for every ship "or else they would fail at pvp"
"The best tank in pvp is Speed/Range pretty much mobility"
|
Chunky Milk
|
Posted - 2009.10.22 02:43:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Proxyyyy
"The best tank in pvp is Speed/Range pretty much mobility"
^^This - And it is this i believe people who don't often pvp don't understand.
Thanks for the In-depth reply.
|
Davinel Lulinvega
|
Posted - 2009.10.22 02:48:00 -
[17]
You might wanna add the word passive in there somewhere. It's kind of an important difference.
Originally by: CCP Tuxford
Now the op looks like a weirdo that can't read kekekeke!
inb4 stealth edit |
Chunky Milk
|
Posted - 2009.10.22 02:52:00 -
[18]
There's a viable active shield myrm fit?
(Not trolling, actually asking...)
|
Davinel Lulinvega
|
Posted - 2009.10.22 02:54:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Chunky Milk
There's a viable active shield myrm fit?
(Not trolling, actually asking...)
There are 3 types of shield tank: passive, buffer, and active. You described passive. Buffering is perfectly viable and quite capable of fitting all important pvp mods.
Originally by: CCP Tuxford
Now the op looks like a weirdo that can't read kekekeke!
inb4 stealth edit |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Gallente
Aliastra
|
Posted - 2009.10.22 02:55:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Chunky Milk
Herzog what's your point?
Are you saying if it had a shield tank it wouldn't have died? Your saying that an extra 400dps tank would have had it live?
Guessing the answers no, so what's your point?
My point though, is if flown properly its chances of survival are much higher if it can avoid incoming dps then being a sitting brick with about as much extra tank over the Armor rep myrm to tank a single cruiser....
My point is, they are slow, get hit easily (this was a mainly frig and cruiser fleet), and that one did not tank well.
This thread has my interest because, since the thread started a couple of weeks ago by Bellum Eternus, I been playing around with a Myrm myself, and having issues with the "right fit". It is a flexible ship, but that leaves a lot open to .... debate. Which is what this is.
I ended up armor tanking my Mrym and it can stand up to the damage of Worlds Collide Room 2, but the dps was lacking considerably and it would have been nicer to have more drone BW. I am still playing with that ship and cannot come to conclusions about it.
|
Chunky Milk
|
Posted - 2009.10.22 03:00:00 -
[21]
Herzog - .... This is about PVP not PVE mate.
Go use your shield tanked myrm for PVE I'm sure it's good for it... However We're talking pvp mate. Also I'm not saying the myrm sucks.. I'm saying a passive shield myrm sucks for pvp.
Davinel - I am aware of the different ways to shield tank. You just said buffering with shield is viable - I am saying *specifically* for a Myrmy why its not.
|
Davinel Lulinvega
|
Posted - 2009.10.22 03:05:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Chunky Milk
Herzog - .... This is about PVP not PVE mate.
Go use your shield tanked myrm for PVE I'm sure it's good for it... However We're talking pvp mate. Also I'm not saying the myrm sucks.. I'm saying a passive shield myrm sucks for pvp.
Davinel - I am aware of the different ways to shield tank. You just said buffering with shield is viable - I am saying *specifically* for a Myrmy why its not.
You specifically talked about passive regen tank in your op. A buffer doesn't have that - at least not more than a negligible amount. A buffer actually fits useful mods in its lows, like nano, dcu, and damage mods. A buffer actually fits useful mods in its mids, like mwd, cap booster, and point. A buffer shield tank is quite a bit more maneuverable than any kind of armor fit and as you said, "Maneuverability in small gangs is king."
Originally by: CCP Tuxford
Now the op looks like a weirdo that can't read kekekeke!
inb4 stealth edit |
Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge
Important Internet Spaceship League
|
Posted - 2009.10.22 03:12:00 -
[23]
Shield gank myrm:
mwd - scram - shield tank - cap injector
focused medium pulse/blasters/AC
gank in low slots + damage control
extender rigs.
Faster more agile and does more damage than an armor tanked myrm.
Triple rep myrms are hilariously fast to alpha past - or a couple neuting ships ruin your day. Theyre best for 1v1's against people who don't understand active armor tank bonuses.
Shield tank ship with no MWD or scram or cap injector is fail.
I don't care if the tank is crap - you're in a gang with ZOMG DPS - kill people before they kill you.
If your point is how shield regen tans suck for pvp - congrats for posting an obvious thread.
Important Internet Spaceship League Wants You |
Chunky Milk
|
Posted - 2009.10.22 03:15:00 -
[24]
Ok - Ill change my question to - Show me a useful Myrm Shield Buffer fit?
5 mid slots - Web, Scram, MWD - And your going to buffer tank it with 2 mids? =/
Or you can armor buffer a hell of alot more, make use of its resistance bonus and have mwd, scram, web, cap booster and even ECCM. Or twin webs...
|
Omara Otawan
|
Posted - 2009.10.22 03:22:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Omara Otawan on 22/10/2009 03:23:32
Originally by: Chunky Milk
Or you can armor buffer a hell of alot more, make use of its resistance bonus and have mwd, scram, web, cap booster and even ECCM. Or twin webs...
What resistance bonus? It gets a bonus to repair amount.
And just to throw it out here, pretty much all the other shield buffer fits on BCs use 2 midslots, a damage control and rigs for their tank, nothing special with the myrm except you can have 3 slots for the buffer or another midslot mod the others cant have.
|
Asuka Smith
Gallente
Noir.
|
Posted - 2009.10.22 03:23:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Asuka Smith on 22/10/2009 03:23:40
[Myrmidon, NanoShield Neutron]
Damage Control II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Large Shield Extender II
Invulnerability Field II
Invulnerability Field II
Warp Scrambler II
Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Hammerhead II x2
Ogre II x2
Hobgoblin II x1
Berserker II x2
Valkyrie II x2
Warrior II x1
796 DPS, 56k EHP with 54% EM resistance being the lowest, and a 6.5 second align time. 1.35km/s speed.
|
Omara Otawan
|
Posted - 2009.10.22 03:29:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Omara Otawan on 22/10/2009 03:30:11
Originally by: Asuka Smith
56k EHP with 54% EM resistance being the lowest
57K EHP in my EFT for just EM damage, 62K uniform.
Without overheating invuls that is, given that you can heat a single one for a loooooong time I'd suggest taking that into account. If you are primaried you can even overheat both, chances are you pop before they burn out anyway
|
Chunky Milk
|
Posted - 2009.10.22 03:29:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Chunky Milk on 22/10/2009 03:30:46
*meant rep bonus =/*
56k Isn't much of a buffer tbh - Anyway the OP quiet clearly isn't talking of gank fits.
Referring back to the other thread - Its talking of a general fully tanked myrm for use in roaming fleets. And there are people out there that think that its fine. They also think it's fine to have 0 tackle - There general response is "But tacklers should be tackling"
edit: I won't lie, that myrm looks nice ^^
Can it fit Heavy Pulse lasers on there and get similiar results? The range would be nice -
|
Davinel Lulinvega
|
Posted - 2009.10.22 03:35:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Chunky Milk
Edited by: Chunky Milk on 22/10/2009 03:30:46
*meant rep bonus =/*
56k Isn't much of a buffer tbh - Anyway the OP quiet clearly isn't talking of gank fits.
Referring back to the other thread - Its talking of a general fully tanked myrm for use in roaming fleets. And there are people out there that think that its fine. They also think it's fine to have 0 tackle - There general response is "But tacklers should be tackling"
edit: I won't lie, that myrm looks nice ^^
Can it fit Heavy Pulse lasers on there and get similiar results? The range would be nice -
Yes, but you have to sacrifice either buffer or point for cap or you'll be useless in no time flat. In 0.0 we bring along hictor/dictors and arazus so I drop the point. If you don't feel comfortable with that then drop an invuln for a point.
[Myrmidon, shield lazorz]
Damage Control II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Reactor Control Unit II
Large Shield Extender II
Invulnerability Field II
Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive
Large Shield Extender II
Small Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 200
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Warrior II x1
Valkyrie II x2
Berserker II x2
Bouncer II x2
Warrior II x5
Originally by: CCP Tuxford
Now the op looks like a weirdo that can't read kekekeke!
inb4 stealth edit |
Omara Otawan
|
Posted - 2009.10.22 03:35:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Chunky Milk
56k Isn't much of a buffer tbh - Anyway the OP quiet clearly isn't talking of gank fits.
You can get 75K (80K with heated invul which works for 4+ min) with dual LSE, 1x invul, 1x DC, 1x em resist rig + 2x extender rigs.
Need to downgrade to ion blasters though, which costs you about 40 dps, and some range.
|
| |
|
| Pages: [1] 2 3 :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |