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The Battle of Space and Freedom:Tactical Defeat, Strategic Clarity

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The Cosmopolite Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.11.01 15:21:00 - [1] It falls to me, as overall commander of Star Fraction forces at the Battle of Space and Freedom starbase in Kamela system, to give our perspective on this event and what arises from it. In the first instance, I make no bones about the tactical outcome as regards the Star Fraction: a starbase was destroyed and seven carriers lost in the ensuing battle, together with numerous other ships. We must also recognise the loss of allied carriers and I take the opportunity to thank the pilots of those carriers for their efforts. They are deeply appreciated. Some have pondered the timing of Star Fraction and allied actions but I can honestly say that from our point of view saving that starbase was of secondary importance to other considerations. That is not to say saving the starbase was not an operational objective of the Star Fraction but given it was secondary and given the disposition of forces it was not possible to act to save it. When allied forces were in a position to attack, we pressed the attack with BYDI, Cry Havoc, REPO, The Final Stand, Dead Terrorists and Minmatar militia forces all taking part. Suggestions of early departure from battle on the part of any of our allies are wide of mark as far as I am concerned. Certainly, some confusion as to positioning arose and when the starbase was destroyed repositioning of a number of the battlegroups was necessary. I was aware of all allied forces remaining in battle well beyond the point of our deploying Star Fraction carriers. The decision to deploy carriers was not taken lightly by me but I evaluated the chances and considered that the allied forces could take a heavy toll of the enemy and that our carriers could turn the tide. In the event, the course of the battle proved this judgement wrong and I must take the responsibility for that. Nevertheless, our carrier group remained in battle and coherent for some 30 minutes before pressure of enemy fire and electronic warfare began to erode the carrier remote-repairing functions. I pay tribute to our capital commander for his calm and steady demeanour under fire. I also pay tribute to the pilots and crews of all capitals involved. The arrival of a substantial Caldari militia battlefleet ultimately sealed the fate of the Star Fraction forces. In the face of the numbers of enemy arriving at the battle it would have been understandable for allies to withdraw immediately. They did not. Our allies fought on and between them it appears that the Amarr and Caldari took losses of the order of over 100 ships. Much has been said about the conduct of the Minmatar militia by our enemies. I have no criticisms of their tactics. Their force operated as guerilla fighters that ultimately reduced the size of the enemy forces during the battle by some considerable margin. This is not to be decried. I note that Cry Havoc and the Final Stand remained in battle considerably beyond the point where their forces were in danger. BYDI forces took significant losses and were forced to withdraw. The Dead Terrorists and Guristas Associates deployed capital assets and lost them. I thank all allies for their participation and salute the fighters who inflicted such heavy losses on the enemy. The Star Fraction suffered a defeat on this occasion but our allies stood with us and inflicted mighty blows against the enemy. Importanly, the strategic situation has gained clarity in the light of these events. The position of the Amarr militia's propagandists has for many months been that Kamela is of no importance to them and the presence of Star Fraction forces irrelevant to this conflict. This position is now in tatters. Going forward, Star Fraction starbase and fleet operations in Kamela, and beyond, continue and we are unbowed. As a note, an announcement concerning parallel strategic developments will be made at a later date. The Cosmopolite The Star Fraction Communications Portal
Koronakesh Amarr Deus Imperiosus Acies	Posted - 2009.11.01 15:45:00 - [2] Composed, coherent and accurate report. Thank you for not adding more idiotic drivel to these boards, Cosmopolite.
Nur AlHuda Amarr Callide Vulpis	Posted - 2009.11.01 17:45:00 - [3] I dont like Star Fraction, but well this was damn good written. It is very diplomatical to allies and minmatar militia. But i hope everyone understands why.
Shad0wsFury Helljumpers	Posted - 2009.11.01 18:00:00 - [4] There were no "mighty blows" inflicted on the Amarr Coalition. We lost some ships, most of which were insured. Star Fraction and friends lost NINE carriers, and one large tower, all of which were probably NOT covered by insurance. Not to mention BYDI bringing a fully faction fit Bhaalgorn and two T3 ships that were faction fit, all which died in a massive ball of fire. There is not even some pyrrhic victory that can be claimed by SF in this. They got smacked. Hard. They will continue to get smacked around by the Amarr Coalition until they leave. The Amarr Coalition is just getting started, and what our enemies saw yesterday was merely a fraction of our potential firepower. So long as Star Fraction remains in the area of operations of the Amarr militia, the Coalition will continue bringing the fight. We have only just begun.
Bashiri No.Mercy	Posted - 2009.11.01 18:01:00 - [5] Nice write up keep jade off the forums he would of added wayyyy to much rp to this. GF Star Fraction you didn't run when we came GF minmatar you did your job and well. Only time we notice gallenete is when they try to loot wrecks at the old pos and we killed a few bs before they ran.
Mielono Caldari SWARTA	Posted - 2009.11.01 18:02:00 - [6] It was a good report from the Star Fraction force, I thank you for your viewpoint.
Teinyhr Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2009.11.01 18:17:00 - [7] Originally by: Bashiri Nice write up keep jade off the forums he would of added wayyyy to much rp to this. (OOC:)...And you're mocking roleplaying on an In-Character forum? May I ask why? ------------------- This is Sig. Launch every Sig. For Great Justice.
Jakiin	Posted - 2009.11.01 18:40:00 - [8] While it does have a scent of the typical "We didn't want it anyway" and "I guess you were lying about your objectives" Star Fraction policy, it was as can be expected from The Cosmopolite very well written, still had as close to no bias as one can reasonably expect from a prominent figure in an organization with many enemies, and was indeed quite informative. Overall it's probably the closest thing to an unbiased report we're going to get on the situation from either side, and for this I thank you. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jakiin Holder Heir of the Kingdom 'Pacifist Reclaimer'
ChipMo Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.11.01 19:53:00 - [9] There has been a lot of talk and guess work on the numbers of this battle, so I have gathered the guesstimates from either sides sources and gathered them all in one spot for people to make their own judgment of: Allied forces Star Fraction - Damage done - 6487.32M, Recived - 13788.42M BYDI - Unkown Cry Havoc Damage done - 9202.68M, Recived - 1116.08M REPO - Unkown TFS - Damage Done - 1.45B, Recived - 1.58B Dead Terrorists - Unkown Minmatar Millitia Damage done - 7.47B, Damage Recived - 0.71B Combined Damage Done: 24.4 Combined Damage Recived: 26.9Bn Enemy Aggressors Caldari Militia Damage Done - 23826.95M, Damage Recived - 4118.91M Amarr Militia - Damage Done - 11.99B, Damage Recived - 4.04B Violent Society - Damage Done - 7.56B, Damage Recived - 0.33B Combined Damage Done: 41.5 Combined Damage Recived: 8.3Bn I am missing some allies figures, but looking into this has been enlightening. The difference in final figures can be explained by cross-posting / not posting losses. But If you take allied losses and compare it to Enemy Damage done the real value should be somewhere in between (likewise for the reverse). Depending on which sources you trust you can spin this fight however you like due to so many different contributing factors. I look at it like this; the amarrians need to hinder our operations in the war zone, the attack on our PoS was toward that goal. To achieve it they mass forces with the capability, to counter that we invite friends and allies to help inflict damage on the amassed forces. I was held captive planet side on Kamela V until 12:30 when was able to elude my captors and reach my pod. Due to this I missed the bulk of the action so I am in no place to comment on the specifics of the combat. However after speaking to most parties involved, reading up on the combat databases & interpenetrating the PR and spin on the IGS it is my belief that the Star Fractions plans for Space & Freedom were for filled. A becon in space costing only a few 100m acted as a red flag to the amarrians forcing them to gather in 1 spot so they can be hit hard without the option of running away (typical amrrian strategy). While the Star Fraction took an economic blow for the team that we are capable of absorbing with relative ease; the Amarrian bloc has taken a massive blow itself... weather it has the economic resources to replenish this loss as readily as we do will be seen in the next weeks, can they muster again for Space & Freedom II ?
Havohej Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.11.01 20:03:00 - [10] Originally by: Jakiin While it does have a scent of the typical "We didn't want it anyway" and "I guess you were lying about your objectives" Star Fraction policy, it was as can be expected from The Cosmopolite very well written, still had as close to no bias as one can reasonably expect from a prominent figure in an organization with many enemies, and was indeed quite informative. Overall it's probably the closest thing to an unbiased report we're going to get on the situation from either side, and for this I thank you. Not so much that "We didn't want it anyway." Those arguments are laughable at best, no matter who makes them. The fact of the matter is, our leadership had a pretty good idea of what we'd be bringing to the field and what would be arrayed against us and they understood that under the expected conditions saving the Space and Freedom tower at Kamela V-1 was possibly an unrealistic goal. Therefor, arrangements were made to replace it immediately and it was treated as a secondary objective for the battle. To simplify for you: Did we want to save it? Yes. Did we expect to save it? No. Would we have been happier if we saved it? Yes. Are we crippled because we didn't save it? No. Du'uma Fiisi is Recruiting
Shad0wsFury Helljumpers	Posted - 2009.11.01 20:11:00 - [11] I can spin numbers too: Helljumpers damage done yesterday (10/31/09): [26,852,357,881 isk] Helljumpers losses yesterday: [2,049,736,751 isk] Differential: [+24,802,621,130 isk] (still not all killmails in...) Look at me! I can post irrelevant numbers too!
ChipMo Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.11.01 20:14:00 - [12] Originally by: Shad0wsFury I can spin numbers too: Helljumpers damage done yesterday (10/31/09): [26,852,357,881 isk] Helljumpers losses yesterday: [2,049,736,751 isk] Differential: [+24,802,621,130 isk] (still not all killmails in...) Look at me! I can post irrelevant numbers too! Helljumpers Killmails are posted on the Amarr Militia Killboard & are included in the numbers I posted.
Saul Dhampir Caldari Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.11.01 22:15:00 - [13] Edited by: Saul Dhampir on 01/11/2009 22:15:02 You mean those that they bothered to post Chip. I poped two Helljumpers losses on there boards for them this morning that thay somehow must have missed. Or not.
Jakiin	Posted - 2009.11.01 22:22:00 - [14] Originally by: Havohej Not so much that "We didn't want it anyway." Those arguments are laughable at best, no matter who makes them. The next time I find humorous arguments in some of the more unbelievable SF propaganda, I'll send it to you. Everyone likes a good laugh. Quote: To simplify for you: Did we want to save it? Yes. Did we expect to save it? No. Would we have been happier if we saved it? Yes. Are we crippled because we didn't save it? No. A fair enough assessment. I overall feel that the purpose of the Amarr bloc here was less about achieving any long-term strategic goals, and more about causing a large sum of ISK damage and proving a point. That being that they can take Kamela if they want to. Of course, this point would have been proven better had they deployed capital assets and actually kept the system by deploying their own POS'. As Star Fraction has made mention that one of their purposes is to divide the Amarr Bloc's attention, perhaps they felt that simply coming in, doing large sums of damage, and leaving would show that they don't consider SF a threat. But this point is brought into question when some 250 ships totaled are deployed into blowing the POS up. Ironically for the Empire, which has a culture built primarily around making points and debating over something (The Scriptures, for the slower children out there) they kind of messed up on the whole 'Prove a point' objective. I mean, I really doubt that the Star Fraction pilots have been shaken too much by this. Whether you call this resolve or ignorance depends on which side of the argument you prefer, but at the end of the day Star Fraction really isn't going to acknowledge this as a legitimate point until Kamela is free of Anarchists and back in Imperial hands. Even then, it's iffy. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jakiin Holder Heir of the Kingdom 'Pacifist Reclaimer'
Amun Khonsu Royal Order of Security Specialists	Posted - 2009.11.01 22:36:00 - [15] Edited by: Amun Khonsu on 01/11/2009 22:36:57 Quote: I overall feel that the purpose of the Amarr bloc here was less about achieving any long-term strategic goals, and more about causing a large sum of ISK damage and proving a point. That being that they can take Kamela if they want to. I dont think this was a proving point for the Amarr at all, though they served as a 'catalyst' to make it happen. Everyone wants in on a POS kill especially if it is their enemy. No doubt ppl who oppose SF from all parts of the Galaxy would turn out even if they hated the amarr equally with SF. I think the Amarr lost much more than they bargained for in the assault, especially to Minmatar forces. The only thing the Amarr proved is that they can be a pain by brining together Mercs with the Caldari and Amarr forces and pave the way for others to join in such as assault on the second. The Amarr achieved their goal of destroying a POS of SF but militarily, it was a defeat for the Amarr as a militia force as far as the ratio of Amarr killed (ISK value) to Minmatar killed and only proved they can be a neusense to non-militia forces. Fight them until turmoil is no more and strike terror into their hearts.
lucifers widow 3rd Kador lancers	Posted - 2009.11.01 22:49:00 - [16] Originally by: Amun Khonsu The Amarr achieved their goal of destroying a POS of SF but militarily, it was a defeat for the Amarr as a militia force as far as the ratio of Amarr killed (ISK value) to Minmatar killed Thing is this fight was NOT against the Minmattar militia but SF and there mercs, on which the Amarr and allies came way out on top, the Minmattar picked off a lot sure but was mostly irrelevant in this fight as they sat at celestials picking off the lagged out Amarr/Caldari trying to shake off the lag by warping in and out. The Mins did in no way effect the outcome of the battle, if they brought in a bs fleet they may of had an impact and bragging rights, as it stood they did what they did well but it was just picking off the victims of lag.
Bomberlocks Minmatar Icarus Prime	Posted - 2009.11.02 00:30:00 - [17] I'm just a humble militia pilot, and not a very good one at that, but I would like to say that Star Fraction and its allies stand on the field in the face of such odds made a profound impact on many pilots and I know for a fact that Star Fraction will be getting new recruits as a result of this.
Sahriah BloodStone Caldari No.Mercy	Posted - 2009.11.02 10:32:00 - [18] Originally by: Amun Khonsu The Amarr achieved their goal of destroying a POS of SF but militarily, it was a defeat for the Amarr as a militia force as far as the ratio of Amarr killed (ISK value) to Minmatar killed and only proved they can be a neusense to non-militia forces. You still don't get it do you? As others have said, our goal was to attack the POS to bring out the Star Fraction Captial Fleet and destroy it. Hell it was not even to destory the POS, that was just a bonus. Did we attack and destory the POS: Yes Did we destroy the SF capital Fleet: Yes, along with 2 other SF allied carriers and extremly expensive t2 cruisers/Bhaalgorn. If we had wanted to destory the Minmatar Fleet we would have gone after the Minmatar fleet directly. If we had done that the Minmatar would have run away because they (the minmatar FC said) Minmatar cannot field the quality and quantity of ships we can. Purely Amarr vs Minmatar, no caldari, no SF - it is obvious we would have won. But...we were not there to fight the Minmatar, i dont know why you keep thinking we were. The SF/allied forces were combined from 8 different entities while the Amarr/allied forces were combined of 3, possibly 4. The amarr never brought capitals. The amarr never even got CVA support, which would have ensured victory. If you want to sit there high and mighty by just combining Minmatar vs Amarr/Caldari kills/losses then do so because it makes you feel better. If you want an overall estimate of the battle in its entirity, then add the losses of all capitals/BS/Faction ships and T3 lost from both sides. I can assure you, combined the losses heavier on the SF side just because of the t3 cruisers and a bhaalgorn, not to mention 2 additional carriers brought in by SF allies. The problem is that the Minmatar don't seem to consider SF and their allies as significant enough to include in their calculations, they are only worried with what they personally destoryed and lost. No wonder SF told them not to bother helping The tactics by all sides were excellent, and all accomplished the goals they wanted. We all won. ---------------------- Sahriah Bloodstone No.Mercy
Kazzzi Amarr Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.11.02 11:17:00 - [19] After action report isk values are meaningless. What matters is who controls Kamela in the aftermath of this battle.
Nur AlHuda Amarr Callide Vulpis	Posted - 2009.11.02 11:28:00 - [20] Well i would say No Mercy and Helljumpers are controlling Kamela since SF cant do nothink against them for days now.
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.11.02 12:59:00 - [21] Originally by: Kazzzi After action report isk values are meaningless. What matters is who controls Kamela in the aftermath of this battle. Indeed. And Kamela remains under Amarrian occupancy. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
SuiJuris No.Mercy	Posted - 2009.11.02 15:00:00 - [22] Couple points I'd like to Make. Everyone feels like they won, and everyone kind of did. Since there were so many parties involved Nearly everyone was able to dish out more isk damage then they received. Hell I myself managed to get 65 confirmed kills in that bloody four hours. The Amarr Militia was well aware ahead of time that the POS would be replaced after we destroyed it. We wanted to bait the SF cap fleet and take it out. Which we did. Furthermore. We wanted to prove the the Amarr and its friends could go head on with Star Fraction and any support they could muster and hold the field. Which we did. I'm not going to lie the Minmatar were very effective in what they did. They took little losses because they wern't fighting so much as ganking stragglers. It was a unexpected and effective strategy. Had the Minmatar managed to bring even 50 BS though it could of swayed things. Bottom line, Everyone feels like a winner and is happy to absorb the losses they incured. This is very odd, but meh. We got 4 hours of EPIC fighting and everyone came out of it happy with the results.
Theophilas Amarr Deus Imperiosus Acies	Posted - 2009.11.02 15:29:00 - [23] Originally by: SuiJuris Bottom line, Everyone feels like a winner and is happy to absorb the losses they incured. This is very odd, but meh. We got 4 hours of EPIC fighting and everyone came out of it happy with the results. Agreed. But it's important to note that the only party that didn't win was Star Fraction. You simply cannot ignore the loss of so many capital ships. That is all that can be said. -------------------------------------------------- Moral law is an invention of mankind for the disenfranchisement of the powerful in favor of the weak. Historical law subverts it at every turn.
Chav Queen 22nd Black Rise Defensive Unit	Posted - 2009.11.02 16:43:00 - [24] Very strange BYDI lose a fight without Invicta showing up and bailing them out.
XFreedomX	Posted - 2009.11.02 16:50:00 - [25] Originally by: Theophilas Originally by: SuiJuris Bottom line, Everyone feels like a winner and is happy to absorb the losses they incured. This is very odd, but meh. We got 4 hours of EPIC fighting and everyone came out of it happy with the results. Agreed. But it's important to note that the only party that didn't win was Star Fraction. You simply cannot ignore the loss of so many capital ships. That is all that can be said. Such is the struggle for freedom, so long as we are fighting, you are losing.
Don Pellegrino	Posted - 2009.11.02 17:18:00 - [26] Originally by: Bomberlocks I'm just a humble militia pilot, and not a very good one at that, but I would like to say that Star Fraction and its allies stand on the field in the face of such odds made a profound impact on many pilots and I know for a fact that Star Fraction will be getting new recruits as a result of this. I disagree. The fact that they needed to hire (at least to call) so many different mercenary (at least 3) and pirate alliances to help them doesn't make them look good. Also, the shocking number of capital ships they have been losing recently to BS is certainly not a good way to get new recruits. You said: "I would like to say that Star Fraction and its allies stand on the field in the face of such odds [...] " The Amarr fleet had 185 pilots at the highest and local was at ~520. I fail to see how the Amarr was outnumbering Star Fraction/Minmatar Militia/REPO/The Final Stand/Beyond Virginity. Also, someone mentioned that the Amarr's goal was to "take" Kamela. The only goal of that operation was to crush their capitals once again. Their POS itself doesn't mean anything, SF stays on the undock over 75% of the time. The Amarr guys don't care, they don't dock there.
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.11.02 17:24:00 - [27] Originally by: Theophilas Agreed. But it's important to note that the only party that didn't win was Star Fraction. You simply cannot ignore the loss of so many capital ships. That is all that can be said. Actually, I do believe that Star Fraction managed to achieve most of their objectives: - Boost TLF morale - Participate in a big fleet action - Maintain a POS in Kamela - Disempower rumors of cowardice and flying station-hugging carriers and, most important of all: - Prove their significance in New Eden One must not underestimate how important this objective is to the Star Fraction. Desiring to have others acknowledge their relevancy has always been a topic of much tension on this very summit. The sheer amount of different threads about this particular battle must have made ms. Constantine near delirious with joy. Hence, I believe this was a victory for the Star Fraction as well. It is indeed quite odd that the all sides are content with the outcome. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Zverofaust Gallente Ice Fire Warriors	Posted - 2009.11.02 17:25:00 - [28] Speaking of clarity... Originally by: Don Pellegrino The Amarr fleet had 185 pilots at the highest and local was at ~520. I fail to see how the Amarr was outnumbering Star Fraction/Minmatar Militia/REPO/The Final Stand/Beyond Virginity. You are of course neglecting to mention the ~100+ Caldari fleet, plus Amarr's own hired/"favoured" mercs. Originally by: Don Pellegrino Their POS itself doesn't mean anything, SF stays on the undock over 75% of the time. The Amarr guys don't care, they don't dock there. And why is that? :)
XFreedomX	Posted - 2009.11.02 17:31:00 - [29] Originally by: Don Pellegrino Originally by: Bomberlocks I'm just a humble militia pilot, and not a very good one at that, but I would like to say that Star Fraction and its allies stand on the field in the face of such odds made a profound impact on many pilots and I know for a fact that Star Fraction will be getting new recruits as a result of this. I disagree. ... An Amarr militia pilot disagree with a Minmatarr militia pilot's statement that SF made an impact to him and his friends..... classic.
Theophilas Amarr Deus Imperiosus Acies	Posted - 2009.11.02 18:11:00 - [30] Originally by: Merdaneth Originally by: Theophilas Agreed. But it's important to note that the only party that didn't win was Star Fraction. You simply cannot ignore the loss of so many capital ships. That is all that can be said. Actually, I do believe that Star Fraction managed to achieve most of their objectives: - Boost TLF morale - Participate in a big fleet action - Maintain a POS in Kamela - Disempower rumors of cowardice and flying station-hugging carriers and, most important of all: - Prove their significance in New Eden One must not underestimate how important this objective is to the Star Fraction. Desiring to have others acknowledge their relevancy has always been a topic of much tension on this very summit. The sheer amount of different threads about this particular battle must have made ms. Constantine near delirious with joy. Hence, I believe this was a victory for the Star Fraction as well. It is indeed quite odd that the all sides are content with the outcome. Humpf... I suppose you are correct in that assessment. With so many parties involved it's difficult to imagine no one lost, but there you go. -------------------------------------------------- Moral law is an invention of mankind for the disenfranchisement of the powerful in favor of the weak. Historical law subverts it at every turn.
Theophilas Amarr Deus Imperiosus Acies	Posted - 2009.11.02 18:42:00 - [31] Edited by: Theophilas on 02/11/2009 18:45:20 Also, it's too bad the method of reporting kills and losses requires faith in the "honor system"... -------------------------------------------------- Moral law is an invention of mankind for the disenfranchisement of the powerful in favor of the weak. Historical law subverts it at every turn.
Bomberlocks Minmatar Icarus Prime	Posted - 2009.11.02 20:36:00 - [32] Originally by: Don Pellegrino Originally by: Bomberlocks I'm just a humble militia pilot, and not a very good one at that, but I would like to say that Star Fraction and its allies stand on the field in the face of such odds made a profound impact on many pilots and I know for a fact that Star Fraction will be getting new recruits as a result of this. I disagree. The fact that they needed to hire (at least to call) so many different mercenary (at least 3) and pirate alliances to help them doesn't make them look good. Also, the shocking number of capital ships they have been losing recently to BS is certainly not a good way to get new recruits. You said: "I would like to say that Star Fraction and its allies stand on the field in the face of such odds [...] " The Amarr fleet had 185 pilots at the highest and local was at ~520. I fail to see how the Amarr was outnumbering Star Fraction/Minmatar Militia/REPO/The Final Stand/Beyond Virginity. Also, someone mentioned that the Amarr's goal was to "take" Kamela. The only goal of that operation was to crush their capitals once again. Their POS itself doesn't mean anything, SF stays on the undock over 75% of the time. The Amarr guys don't care, they don't dock there. You can of course disagree, and there is nothing wrong with that, but personally, knowing the history of the name of The Star Fraction, I see a strength in its ideology that has carried it through many trials where others have failed or given up. I see that expressed in the naming of the new POS with the legend of the Cassini Division and all they stood for. It might mean nothing to you and sound like hypocritical and emotional hogwash, but the legend and the ideology of the Star Fraction and the Cassini Division are older than the faith of the Amarr and new Eden itself, and if it persisted to this new and far away universe, you should perhaps ask yourself why that is.
Jelosavich	Posted - 2009.11.03 05:06:00 - [33] Originally by: ChipMo Allied forces Star Fraction - Damage done - 6487.32M, Recived - 13788.42M BYDI - Unkown Cry Havoc Damage done - 9202.68M, Recived - 1116.08M REPO - Unkown TFS - Damage Done - 1.45B, Recived - 1.58B Dead Terrorists - Unkown Minmatar Millitia Damage done - 7.47B, Damage Recived - 0.71B Combined Damage Done: 24.4 Combined Damage Recived: 26.9Bn Enemy Aggressors Caldari Militia Damage Done - 23826.95M, Damage Recived - 4118.91M Amarr Militia - Damage Done - 11.99B, Damage Recived - 4.04B Violent Society - Damage Done - 7.56B, Damage Recived - 0.33B Combined Damage Done: 41.5 Combined Damage Recived: 8.3Bn Actually, the problem with this type of reporting is that it counts multiply the kills... if A and B go up against C, the numbers can be A 1:1, B 1:1, C 2:1. Each of A and B participated in kills equal to their numbers, but they did not strike the final blow of their numbers. Thus, you can estimate that the actual totals to kills and death are close to both sides losses. Thus, it was about 26.9B ISK damage to 8.3B ISK damage. The numbers are of course off because not all losses are posted, and some losses can also be cross posted, but for the most part the only ones that count as losses for a given killboard are that group's. (Also, I never actually got a lossmail for one of my losses...)
Jakiin	Posted - 2009.11.03 05:16:00 - [34] Indeed, mixed fleet engagements are very difficult to estimate from kill boards unless all involved parties have a very strict policy regarding their members posting all losses, such as the Ghost Festival. Generally one must have data from the battlefield in regards to wreck counts in order to get an accurate idea. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jakiin Holder Heir of the Kingdom 'Pacifist Reclaimer'
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.11.03 17:21:00 - [35] Originally by: Bomberlocks You can of course disagree, and there is nothing wrong with that, but personally, knowing the history of the name of The Star Fraction, I see a strength in its ideology that has carried it through many trials where others have failed or given up. I see that expressed in the naming of the new POS with the legend of the Cassini Division and all they stood for. It might mean nothing to you and sound like hypocritical and emotional hogwash, but the legend and the ideology of the Star Fraction and the Cassini Division are older than the faith of the Amarr and new Eden itself, and if it persisted to this new and far away universe, you should perhaps ask yourself why that is. The names are powerful and the imagery is shared dream of the Free Captains and the Matari people. You might be interested to know that we've offered use of the Cassini Division tower to the TLF for the ongoing siege of Kamela. From its position in close proximity to the State Crusade hisec headquarters in Tuomota it can provide many of the same attributes you ascribe to its namesake in mythology. Access codes have been made available to some Matari commanders already and the knowledge should be out there. True Knowledge
Katyayani Koriau Amarr Holy Flying Death Nuns	Posted - 2009.11.04 14:56:00 - [36] Originally by: Merdaneth Hence, I believe this was a victory for the Star Fraction as well. It is indeed quite odd that the all sides are content with the outcome. Don't SAY IT Lord Merdaneth. THIS was NO victory for anarchost ships!!! They were killed in hundreds by Amarr warriors and they cried in locals for hours after.Fortress is broken no star faction ships are seen this past days at all! AMARR VICTOR!!!!
Cix'El'Syd	Posted - 2009.11.04 15:34:00 - [37] Originally by: Katyayani Koriau [They were killed in hundreds by Amarr warriors and they cried in locals for hours after.Fortress is broken no star faction ships are seen this past days at all! Odd that you say that since the battle report doesn't reflect "hundreds" of losses, unless you account for the losses on ALL SIDES. It's also odd that you make the claim that no Star Fraction ships have been seen the last few days. I've seen fleets of them out and about the war zone every day since that battle. Maybe if you spent more time in the war zone, instead of spewing garbage here, you'd actually know what you're talking about.
D'yanoi	Posted - 2009.11.04 15:57:00 - [38] Hows your sister Claire XXX ? Tell her we miss her dearly.
Zverofaust Gallente Ice Fire Warriors	Posted - 2009.11.04 17:30:00 - [39] Originally by: Katyayani Koriau They were killed in hundreds by Amarr warriors and they cried in locals for hours after.Fortress is broken no star faction ships are seen this past days at all! You haven't even been to Kamela in the past 3 days, have you?
fatmanpaul Killed In Action	Posted - 2009.11.05 00:04:00 - [40] It is just one of those strange situations "all sides won". Each had different objectives and value the fight from different perspectives. The escaped slave perspective of this FW participant---gf. I had fun for hours at the event. We are all still talking about it. Medals have been issued, kill mails enjoyed and good laughs for those of us flying with Captain. Again GF Round II, pretty please
T Dave Gallente Core Synthesis Unlimited	Posted - 2009.11.06 08:51:00 - [41] Edited by: T Dave on 06/11/2009 08:51:29 Originally by: Shad0wsFury Star Fraction and friends lost NINE carriers, and one large tower, all of which were probably NOT covered by insurance. Sir, with all due respect, you are emphasising the wrong part of your statement above. The key word I would draw there is not 'NOT', but 'PROBABLY'. I, for one, would like to see your evidence on this lack of insurance. As to the numbers lost, I don't see how restating the admissions of the Cosmopolite and other Freespacer reports of this battle is needed. The Intaki shrugs his shoulders. Still, if it comforts you to believe they weren't insured, then enjoy it. But please don't weaken your fantastical statements with such elements of doubt as 'probably'. Either find conviction and facts in your arguments, or please keep them to yourself. And, on the subject of arguments, I can't help but draw on this: Originally by: Shad0wsFury They will continue to get smacked around by the Amarr Coalition until they leave. The Amarr Coalition is just getting started, and what our enemies saw yesterday was merely a fraction of our potential firepower. So long as Star Fraction remains in the area of operations of the Amarr militia, the Coalition will continue bringing the fight. We have only just begun. Whilst I can admire your desire for blood, death and destruction, I can not help but chuckle at how nonchalantly you support the key strategic point The Cosmopolite raised: Originally by: The Cosmopolite Importantly, the strategic situation has gained clarity in the light of these events. The position of the Amarr militia's propagandists has for many months been that Kamela is of no importance to them and the presence of Star Fraction forces irrelevant to this conflict. This position is now in tatters. So, whilst I congratulate your fighting talk, I'm left chuckling recalling all the times I've heard The Star Fraction referred to as 'irrelevant'. Such an argument will struggle to ever again be anything but laughable. As to the OP - and as others have said - it seems to be a fair and honest assessment of what all have referred to as a truly great battle. I salute all warriors involved, and look forward to seeing how this affair unfolds, confident that the hearts and minds of the Freespace movement remain true, and their spirit burn stronger and brighter than ever.
Nauticaa Gallente Empire Assault Corp Dead Terrorists	Posted - 2009.11.06 18:36:00 - [42] I know mine was insured for one thing and suspect any of the pilots that knew what they was going into insured theres.
Nauticaa Gallente Empire Assault Corp Dead Terrorists	Posted - 2009.11.08 11:06:00 - [43] Right it isn't worth a new post but since Garst seems to think POS take downs are IGS material I'll post here. At about 8am this morning a few Matari Militia and myself went and avenged Space and Freedom. The result a destroyed Amarr militia tower and my hanger floor being taken up by some shiny Dread Guitarist's issue missile battery's. The Amarr didn't even show their face to defend it I kinda wish they did I could use another fight like the last one.
Nur AlHuda Amarr Callide Vulpis	Posted - 2009.11.08 17:55:00 - [44] Well that is difference to attack some unimportant miltia pos which nobody cares and to attack Star Fraction Pos where SF deploys cap fleet and all aviable member base+ has to call several alliances for help.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.11.08 21:03:00 - [45] Originally by: Nur AlHuda Well that is difference to attack some unimportant miltia pos which nobody cares and to attack Star Fraction Pos where SF deploys cap fleet and all aviable member base+ has to call several alliances for help. So I'm confused. Is Space and Freedom "irrelevant and unimportant" or "vital and pressing concern" for the State Crusade high command this week? You change your minds so often its hard to keep up.
Nur AlHuda Amarr Callide Vulpis	Posted - 2009.11.08 21:54:00 - [46] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Nur AlHuda Well that is difference to attack some unimportant miltia pos which nobody cares and to attack Star Fraction Pos where SF deploys cap fleet and all aviable member base+ has to call several alliances for help. So I'm confused. Is Space and Freedom "irrelevant and unimportant" or "vital and pressing concern" for the State Crusade high command this week? You change your minds so often its hard to keep up. First you were not even in the battle. Second you dont know what we are talking about. I said its difference when there is some personal pos completly undefended and pos that that is protected by several alliances with cap fleet. As far as i remember that pos destroyed by hostiles was not imperial property. And when we speak about caps when will SF deploy their replaced cap fleet agian to fleet fights?
ChipMo Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.11.08 22:13:00 - [47] Originally by: Nur AlHuda First you were not even in the battle. Second you dont know what we are talking about. I said its difference when there is some personal pos completly undefended and pos that that is protected by several alliances with cap fleet. As far as i remember that pos destroyed by hostiles was not imperial property. And when we speak about caps when will SF deploy their replaced cap fleet agian to fleet fights? So, it doesn't matter how a POS is fit its all irrelevant & useless unless people show up to defend? I guess No.Mercy's industrial friends POS was irrelevant too, Chimera BPO, labs & all. heh, interesting logic. ....No, wait, perhaps your just so incapable of defending your assets you don't even try. Yes, far more likely I think. Pathetic.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.11.09 01:34:00 - [48] Originally by: Nur AlHuda And when we speak about caps when will SF deploy their replaced cap fleet agian to fleet fights? Well you haven't put up a fleet in over a week ... logically we need a fleet to fight in order to deploy capitals against it. True Knowledge
ChipMo Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.11.09 01:40:00 - [49] Originally by: Jade Constantine Well you haven't put up a fleet in over a week ... logically we need a fleet to fight in order to deploy capitals against it. *ChipMo opens his GalNet terminal from the bridge of -JFS- Revival (Chimera Class Carrier) Quite. Odd, how the Amarrians talk about our capitals as though we only have 1 "fleet".
RaveNight Amarr Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.11.10 14:11:00 - [50] Originally by: Rodj Blake Originally by: Kazzzi After action report isk values are meaningless. What matters is who controls Kamela in the aftermath of this battle. Indeed. And Kamela remains under Amarrian occupancy. Amarr live in Kamela? Where!?
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.11.10 15:06:00 - [51] Originally by: RaveNight Originally by: Rodj Blake Originally by: Kazzzi After action report isk values are meaningless. What matters is who controls Kamela in the aftermath of this battle. Indeed. And Kamela remains under Amarrian occupancy. Amarr live in Kamela? Where!? You can check the occupancy of a system by looking at the top left corner of your pod interface. I think that you might need to be undocked though. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.11.10 16:48:00 - [52] Originally by: Rodj Blake I think that you might need to be undocked though. Also helps if you are actually present in the solar system in question. True Knowledge
ChipMo Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.11.10 17:07:00 - [53] Originally by: Rodj Blake You can check the occupancy of a system by looking at the top left corner of your pod interface. I think that you might need to be undocked though. You can check the occupancy of a system by looking at.... The people who live there.

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