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Professor Terror Caldari Cougar's Lair	Posted - 2009.11.04 01:37:00 - [91] Originally by: Praetorian Phoenix Proposed Solution: It's really quite simple, in fact I based it on real life! blah bah blah First mistake was thinking some how EvE = RL........ Second mistake was trying to play a MMORPG as a solo player........ Third mistake was making the 999,999th thread about this subject, maybe the 1 millionth thread will make a difference, better luck next time
Kate Mosh	Posted - 2009.11.04 02:05:00 - [92] Edited by: Kate Mosh on 04/11/2009 02:07:21
Val Consideration	Posted - 2009.11.04 08:08:00 - [93] what phoenix said.
Local Red Red Federation	Posted - 2009.11.04 09:06:00 - [94] Originally by: Val Consideration what phoenix said. who's phoenix? anyways its sad when some people dont want to play with others! hay have to be decd. example: carebear gets bored with wow and tried eve! carebear likes mining carebear mines for a year carebear gets a dreadnought after 1.5y of playing carebear dont have anything to use his stupid ship for and logs to resup his wow account this is how ** is in eve, dude**ers! and some of us sees this and just tries to make their short stay as awful as possible! comprende!? Loading...
Jake McCord Minmatar McCord Industries	Posted - 2009.11.04 09:24:00 - [95] Ok, here's the deal. Concord doesn't interfere in stealing because it's an acknowledged way for PvP to happen in Hi-sec systems. If you don't want to participate in PvP, DON'T shoot at flashy red things. If you don't want your loot stolen, don't run combat missions. The world is not perfect, neither is the EVE universe. But if you learn how things work, you should be able to do most of what you want, and still have fun. In spite of GoonFleet scumbags. I spit in the face of GoonFleet I would spit on your honor, but you have none. And May the fleas of a thousand camels infest your armpits.
Whitehound	Posted - 2009.11.04 10:33:00 - [96] Originally by: Local Red anyways its sad when some people dont want to play with others! ... example: ... carebear likes mining carebear mines for a year carebear gets a dreadnought after 1.5y of playing ... The imaginary carebear who you have created is selling his ore and manufactured products to other players and thereby does play with others. You, Local Red, only do not recognize these other professions in EVE. --
Millie Clode	Posted - 2009.11.04 11:10:00 - [97] I wish real life had the same game mechanics as highsec. gets my 6 biggest mates, slips on knuckleduster and waits for a whiny noob to steal from
Taiberian	Posted - 2009.11.04 11:10:00 - [98] Originally by: Local Red Originally by: Val Consideration what phoenix said. who's phoenix? anyways its sad when some people dont want to play with others! hay have to be decd. example: carebear gets bored with wow and tried eve! carebear likes mining carebear mines for a year carebear gets a dreadnought after 1.5y of playing carebear dont have anything to use his stupid ship for and logs to resup his wow account this is how ** is in eve, dudeers! and some of us sees this and just tries to make their short stay as awful as possible! comprende!? so, for your understanding all those people who mine, manufacture, invent or trade are just ex-wow players who belong to a marginal social class (called "the carebears")and you, the "pirates", are the elite social class who really plays Eve's role. Is this pathologic feeling of superiority what makes me sick. when this people are going to understand that their st isn't better than other players just because they like pew pew. Eve is a whole thing MORE than this... for God sake.
trenny jr Caldari United Forces Academy Galactic System Lords Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.04 12:33:00 - [99] Originally by: Millie Clode I wish real life had the same game mechanics as highsec. gets my 6 biggest mates, slips on knuckleduster and waits for a whiny noob to steal from dont forget the wet cement.... bubble anyone? every time lana posts a carebear dies
Ralavina	Posted - 2009.11.04 13:50:00 - [100] Originally by: Praetorian Phoenix What?! High Sec pirates?! Yes. They exist, they are the s**of the earth. They revel in their ability to make people who want to enjoy this game in their own way unhappy. And they love to do it because it's "within the rules." It makes me sick. It's the same mentality that 8 year olds have on the playground when they do stupid . Grow the up. For those of you who don't know how it's done, let me tell you: You fly around and ninja mission runner's loot. This flags you as agressed to them, but concord doesn't come. You now have the right to shoot them. You then shoot them, now they have the right to shoot you. They were just ninja'ing your loot in a frigate or something else that's stupid and annoying. They come back in a much larger ship and kill you. Then they take your things. High Sec Piracy. To think, they actually enjoy it? Proposed Solution: It's really quite simple, in fact I based it on real life! If someone comes into my house and steals//tries to steal my I can shoot them (or something like that, it's self defense blah blah blah). However, once I shoot them, they don't have the right to shoot me. They were stealing my , how does me shooting them give them the right to shoot me? Police come, shoot the * who shot at me while stealing my TV. I loot their . Super simple fix. Fair fix. If you want to agress someone without a security penalty, do it in low-sec and you're fine. The people out there are out there for a reason. I can even write the (rough) code for you now if you want. robber thread!: if stealing: mark stealer as stealing from PERSON if shot at by PERSON: if marked as stealing from PERSON: nope, you don't get them as agressed towards you See how easy that was? And the best part is, all that information is logged already! The server knows when you steal because that's how it tells you that someone is agressed to you. The server already tracks who owns what because it has handy little tickers next to the cans and wrecks, in fact there's the warning thing in the top! If this doesn't work there should at least be a way that you should be able to call the police, like in real life. Disclaimer: I don't run missions. I think missions are boring as and when I do run missions (because it's suggested) I want to kill myself it's so bad. However, it might be hard to imagine, but there exist people in this game who enjoy it for missioning (I have no idea how that is the case but they do) and don't have the time to invest in a large corp of people to protect their ** while they mission. To all the people who do this: The majority of EvE players live in empire. It's probably somewhat safe to assume that a lot of eve players like to mission alone. Why do you insist on trying to erode away the player base that funds the game that you enjoy to play (however sick and twisted your enjoyment of it is)? What of this underhanded and pathetic technique do you enjoy? Is it the rants from people like this? It's definitely not the adrenaline rush of real PvP, you never risk anything. It's not a challenge, all you're doing is ruining someone's day. I'm proposing this idea because while EvE is a sandbox game, I refuse to believe that the factions of New Eden would allow their carefully structured empires to devolve into an orgy of sociopaths, because that's what it's becoming. http://www.mcafee.cc/Bin/sb.html That's if you need a link. I was going to post this in F&I, hopefully Devs will cross link it so I don't have to repost it but I will if need be. There's a distinct difference between playing within the rules and abusing the rules. Ralara's banned again so this is my alt :p
Riedle Minmatar Raptus Regalitor	Posted - 2009.11.04 14:12:00 - [101] Originally by: Praetorian Phoenix look at me I whine and quote dead people. Confirming I'm a rule abuser
Schwa88 Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.11.04 17:39:00 - [102] TL;DR: another butthurt missionbear cries in C&P. Deal with it bro or GB2WOW. Also, nice tears.
MIrk Kross Minmatar Raptus Regalitor	Posted - 2009.11.04 17:42:00 - [103] Let me get this straight OP. You want, or at least you want other people(as you claim you're not a missionrunner) to be able to take part in combat against a weaker and predictable opponent(the rats themselves), with as little risk as possible to yourself for the sake of profit? Sounds a bit similar to what you accuse the evil pirates of doing. What form of "play", according to your chosen definition, is missionrunning? Is it competitive? - not particularly. Is there chance involved? - almost none. Is it a simulation? - of a repetitive action involving no creativity, perhaps. An altered mental state? - possibly as the OP wishes to see EVE and the real world as places where his own person, possessions and desires are sacrosanct. Tbh honest I don't really care what you choose to do with your time in EVE, just don't be a self righteous whiner and tell me how I should spend mine. Also confirming that I'm a rule abuser.
Praetorian Phoenix	Posted - 2009.11.04 18:08:00 - [104] Originally by: MIrk Kross Let me get this straight OP. You want, or at least you want other people(as you claim you're not a missionrunner) to be able to take part in combat against a weaker and predictable opponent(the rats themselves), with as little risk as possible to yourself for the sake of profit? Sounds a bit similar to what you accuse the evil pirates of doing. You're not evil pirates! you're evil carebears! Idiom shift! While this was my original point, I actually disagree with it wholeheartedly now after thinking more on the subject. I want the risk to be more balanced. I agree a mission runner who can just ** about and run missions shouldn't be left alone. HOWEVER, I feel that the current system whereby evil carebears can run in and harass the missioner into shooting is a poor way to remedy this situation. There is NO risk for the evil carebear in this situation, which is why I insist on calling you carebears. I'm not sure how to remedy the situation, but I feel like the best way to do it would be to change up missions. Originally by:** MIrk Kross What form of "play", according to your chosen definition, is missionrunning? Is it competitive? - not particularly. Is there chance involved? - almost none. Is it a simulation? - of a repetitive action involving no creativity, perhaps. An altered mental state? - possibly as the OP wishes to see EVE and the real world as places where his own person, possessions and desires are sacrosanct. The form of play that mission runners engage in is a form of agon, up until they are sitting in a 3 billion isk faction fit ship. Then it really is nothing. I agree. CCP does too. They've said numerous times that missions are the most godawfully unfun thing in all MMO's and needs to get fixed. It's just an action to be finished for the sake of garnering the rewards. That isn't play. I would argue that for mission runners the fun is something that I would relate towards the acquisition of collectible items, the same aspect of play by which WoW is so alluring to these people. I'm not sure where that falls except maybe towards addiction (and isn't addiction so fun!) but beyond that I'm not entirely sure. Overall though I would like to say I appreciate your ability to read AND analyze my claims, and successfully (I would argue) rebut them. This is what I wanted to get, not a bunch of people claiming "BUTTHURT" but what was I to expect eh?
Shinma Apollo Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2009.11.04 18:09:00 - [105] Dear god this is the worst attempt at academia-defense I've seen evoked on these forums. If you punch from behind any more straw men, I'm fairly certain the forbidden city is going to sue you for copyright infringement.
Praetorian Phoenix	Posted - 2009.11.04 18:25:00 - [106] Edited by: Praetorian Phoenix on 04/11/2009 18:29:18 Originally by: Shinma Apollo Dear god this is the worst attempt at academia-defense I've seen evoked on these forums. If you punch from behind any more straw men, I'm fairly certain the forbidden city is going to sue you for copyright infringement. A straw man is a fallacy in which an irrelevant topic is presented in order to divert attention from the original issue. At what point did I EVER divert from the original issue? The issue was, high-sec pirating is major bull**? People then brought up the point that it was how they PLAYED. I countered by saying it wasn't actually PLAYING. So, I thought about WHY it wasn't playing, then came up with a reasonable suggestion on how to fix it. Just because it wasn't the original point I made doesn't make my argument instantly a strawman. People are allowed to change their minds in the face of overwhelming evidence. Also, you meant invoke, not evoke. Allow me to google a dictionary for you: EVOKE: 1. To call forth or up 2. To re-create imaginitively INVOKE: 1a. To petition for help or support b: to appeal or cite as authority 2. to call forth by incantation 3. to make an earnest request for 4. to put into effect or operation 5. Bring about, cause I didn't really do much calling forth, but I did a lot of petitioning! BTW, what you did is called ad hominem. I followed suit because you did it first. However I also included actual factual stuff, so I am therefore less (albeit not by much) ****ed than you.
Nyxster Gallente Gatecrashers SCUM.	Posted - 2009.11.04 18:41:00 - [107] Originally by: Praetorian Phoenix a man with too much time on his hands and too little to think about. . i wish you would just stfu now, you are making my hed hurt. its a video game ffs. you know, FANTASY not REALITY. wake up and smell the coffee.
James Tritanius	Posted - 2009.11.04 18:42:00 - [108] Originally by: Praetorian Phoenix Edited by: Praetorian Phoenix on 04/11/2009 18:29:18 At what point did I EVER divert from the original issue? The issue was, high-sec pirating is major bull****? People then brought up the point that it was how they PLAYED. I countered by saying it wasn't actually PLAYING. So, I thought about WHY it wasn't playing, then came up with a reasonable suggestion on how to fix it. How is high-sec pirating not playing? I'm having fun griefing and making a reasonable amount of ISK while doing so. It seems like a valid profession to me. Or are you one of these guys who claim that anything outside of the way you play is "not playing"?
Praetorian Phoenix	Posted - 2009.11.04 18:54:00 - [109] Originally by: James Tritanius Originally by: Praetorian Phoenix Edited by: Praetorian Phoenix on 04/11/2009 18:29:18 At what point did I EVER divert from the original issue? The issue was, high-sec pirating is major bull****? People then brought up the point that it was how they PLAYED. I countered by saying it wasn't actually PLAYING. So, I thought about WHY it wasn't playing, then came up with a reasonable suggestion on how to fix it. How is high-sec pirating not playing? I'm having fun griefing and making a reasonable amount of ISK while doing so. It seems like a valid profession to me. Or are you one of these guys who claim that anything outside of the way you play is "not playing"? READ THREADS BEFORE YOU POST FFS I DONT LIKE REPEATING MYSELF. I've had to numerous times already and I might just be kidding, maybe I do like to see my own typing on forums... But seriously, read my previous posts otherwise you just look like an idiot.
Vigo Larcen Dark Claw Raiders	Posted - 2009.11.04 18:55:00 - [110] Edited by: Vigo Larcen on 04/11/2009 18:57:04 Originally by: Praetorian Phoenix HOWEVER, I feel that the current system whereby evil carebears can run in and harass the missioner into shooting is a poor way to remedy this situation. There is NO risk for the evil carebear in this situation, which is why I insist on calling you carebears. Getting shot at equates to no risk? lolwut Edit: The only person interested in reading the entirety of your posts is you. Just an FYI.
James Tritanius	Posted - 2009.11.04 19:09:00 - [111] Originally by: Praetorian Phoenix Originally by: James Tritanius Originally by: Praetorian Phoenix Edited by: Praetorian Phoenix on 04/11/2009 18:29:18 At what point did I EVER divert from the original issue? The issue was, high-sec pirating is major bull****? People then brought up the point that it was how they PLAYED. I countered by saying it wasn't actually PLAYING. So, I thought about WHY it wasn't playing, then came up with a reasonable suggestion on how to fix it. How is high-sec pirating not playing? I'm having fun griefing and making a reasonable amount of ISK while doing so. It seems like a valid profession to me. Or are you one of these guys who claim that anything outside of the way you play is "not playing"? READ THREADS BEFORE YOU POST FFS I DONT LIKE REPEATING MYSELF. I've had to numerous times already and I might just be kidding, maybe I do like to see my own typing on forums... But seriously, read my previous posts otherwise you just look like an idiot. I did read it... I don't need some Calliose guy to tell me what "play" is. I do not accept his definitions.
Praetorian Phoenix	Posted - 2009.11.04 19:19:00 - [112] Edited by: Praetorian Phoenix on 04/11/2009 19:22:03 Originally by: Vigo Larcen Edited by: Vigo Larcen on 04/11/2009 18:57:04 Originally by: Praetorian Phoenix HOWEVER, I feel that the current system whereby evil carebears can run in and harass the missioner into shooting is a poor way to remedy this situation. There is NO risk for the evil carebear in this situation, which is why I insist on calling you carebears. Getting shot at equates to no risk? lolwut Edit: The only person interested in reading the entirety of your posts is you. Just an FYI. Getting shot at by a BS while you're in a frig is not a risk, you're not going to get insta-popped, and you probably won't even get hit. Warping on a BS tanking the rats in his mission and shooting him is not a risk, he is otherwise preoccupied. My point is this: if you're going to come into a mission and take the proceeds from it (whether those proceeds are the loot from the wrecks, the salvage, or killing the person running the mission) going into the mission should equate to some form of risk for you. The way the current system exists it is not, and that is just stupid. This also means that you can't have afk logistics (I said this already, but I LOOOOVVEEE repeating myself). Quote: I did read it... I don't need some Calliose guy to tell me what "play" is. I do not accept his definitions. And that is your right, but everyone (at the very least the vast majority of people) who makes the games you play does. So you might want to try out thinking for a change. If you don't believe this statement ask yourself for a moment what it is that Game Designers read to improve themselves in their field. Once you've realized it's the writings of those who study games, look up a few of them. One of them will quote Caillois eventually. Then, if you still insist on ignorance I really can't do anything to help you except maybe light you a fire to burn the rest of your books.
The Crushah Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2009.11.04 19:23:00 - [113] Originally by: Praetorian Phoenix Originally by: James Tritanius Originally by: Praetorian Phoenix Edited by: Praetorian Phoenix on 04/11/2009 18:29:18 At what point did I EVER divert from the original issue? The issue was, high-sec pirating is major bull****? People then brought up the point that it was how they PLAYED. I countered by saying it wasn't actually PLAYING. So, I thought about WHY it wasn't playing, then came up with a reasonable suggestion on how to fix it. How is high-sec pirating not playing? I'm having fun griefing and making a reasonable amount of ISK while doing so. It seems like a valid profession to me. Or are you one of these guys who claim that anything outside of the way you play is "not playing"? READ THREADS BEFORE YOU POST FFS I DONT LIKE REPEATING MYSELF. I've had to numerous times already and I might just be kidding, maybe I do like to see my own typing on forums... But seriously, read my previous posts otherwise you just look like an idiot. Sorry, what is this thread about again? You remind me of that fat dude in my physics class that just liked to argue with the prof. We called him fat dude.
Kitimortoa	Posted - 2009.11.04 19:29:00 - [114] Originally by: The Crushah Originally by: Praetorian Phoenix Originally by: James Tritanius Originally by: Praetorian Phoenix Edited by: Praetorian Phoenix on 04/11/2009 18:29:18 At what point did I EVER divert from the original issue? The issue was, high-sec pirating is major bull****? People then brought up the point that it was how they PLAYED. I countered by saying it wasn't actually PLAYING. So, I thought about WHY it wasn't playing, then came up with a reasonable suggestion on how to fix it. How is high-sec pirating not playing? I'm having fun griefing and making a reasonable amount of ISK while doing so. It seems like a valid profession to me. Or are you one of these guys who claim that anything outside of the way you play is "not playing"? READ THREADS BEFORE YOU POST FFS I DONT LIKE REPEATING MYSELF. I've had to numerous times already and I might just be kidding, maybe I do like to see my own typing on forums... But seriously, read my previous posts otherwise you just look like an idiot. Sorry, what is this thread about again? You remind me of that fat dude in my physics class that just liked to argue with the prof. We called him fat dude. The term you are looking for here is "fatbeard" Fatbeards are the types that like to argue for arguement's sake about rpg games. Reference image.
Shmeria	Posted - 2009.11.04 19:38:00 - [115] Originally by: Taiberian so, for your understanding all those people who mine, manufacture, invent or trade are just ex-wow players who belong to a marginal social class (called "the carebears")and you, the "pirates", are the elite social class who really plays Eve's role. Is this pathologic feeling of superiority what makes me sick. when this people are going to understand that their s*t isn't better than other players just because they like pew pew. Eve is a whole thing MORE than this... for God sake. No, the pew-pew ers rely in the players doing the mining/manufacturing. The thing you don't get is that you, likewise, are at risk if you don't have some buddies with guns. By the way, the real world is like this too - you rely on your government to provide protection, but even then they're not all that good at it. Try walking about the dodgier areas of London without a couple of bodyguards carrying a metric ass-ton of money and see if the police (e.g. CONCORD) stop you from getting shanked. Nobody is saying that hauling/mining/manufacturing is bad, just that thinking you should be totally safe anywhere* is .... cute.
Vigo Larcen Dark Claw Raiders	Posted - 2009.11.04 19:50:00 - [116] Originally by: Praetorian Phoenix Getting shot at by a BS while you're in a frig is not a risk, you're not going to get insta-popped, and you probably won't even get hit. Warping on a BS tanking the rats in his mission and shooting him is not a risk, he is otherwise preoccupied. My point is this: if you're going to come into a mission and take the proceeds from it (whether those proceeds are the loot from the wrecks, the salvage, or killing the person running the mission) going into the mission should equate to some form of risk for you. The way the current system exists it is not, and that is just stupid. This also means that you can't have afk logistics (I said this already, but I LOOOOVVEEE repeating myself). My point is that there is risk for a player crashing another player's mission. The inability of the mission runner to hit me is irrelevant. If I steal his loot, he and his entire corp has the right to shoot me. Have you ever heard of warp disruptors, stasis webifiers, or light drones? Each of these can easily fit onto a mission-running BS without sacrificing much tank/gank. If the missionbear's ship just can't fit those mods for whatever reason, he can call his corp buddies to come blow me up if they can (lol Hellfury videos). If I'm only salvaging, he can warp out and dump NPC aggro on me, he can blow up the wrecks, or he can ignore me. All of these game mechanics equate to risk for me as a [ninja/salvager/hi-sec pirate/evil carebear/whatever-label-makes-you-happy]. On a different note, I congratulate you on a C&P threadnaught about a topic that's been flogged to death for several years now. Most of these threads die fast, but yours has staying power for some reason.
Miyamoto Isoruku Caldari The Phoenix Enclave	Posted - 2009.11.04 20:05:00 - [117] I, too, abuse rules. And carebears.
Raelyf The Bastards	Posted - 2009.11.04 20:18:00 - [118] Edited by: Raelyf on 04/11/2009 20:21:16 There is no risk to the mission runner. He has no need nor obligation to shoot. The ninja salvager/looter can steal his wrecks, and deny him a portion of his income. In return, the mission runner could pop his own wrecks, and deny the ninja salvager the entirety of his income - including the overhead cost in time of finding the mission runner to begin with. Both players here have the ability to deny the other player income/waste time neither has the ability to add any actual risk. That said, the mission runner has many more options. His entire corporation can shoot at the ninja salvager, and he can choose to engage however and whenever he wants - or not to. For the ninja salvager, this is offset by the fact that his ship is likely low value or can escape. That actually seems quite balanced to me. This thread is stupid. Also, this Quote: My point is this: if you're going to come into a mission and take the proceeds from it [snip] going into the mission should equate to some form of risk for you. The way the current system exists it is not, and that is just stupid. You realize the irony of this point, right? Because going into a mission and taking the proceeds from it with no risk is EXACTLY what mission runners do under the current system.
Miriyana Gallente THE MuPPeT FaCTOrY	Posted - 2009.11.04 20:26:00 - [119] Originally by: The'Best Hellfury Upon further reflection I think this is an elaborate troll. C 10/10 - - - - - - Change just leads to more problems Originally by: CCP Wrangler Oh please no, I've had enough with real world taxes, and dealing with the tax agency. No more taxes!!
Zedrik Cayne Gallente Standards and Practices	Posted - 2009.11.04 21:29:00 - [120] After reading this for a bit..while the OP may be an elaborate troll, he's got the mechanics of the whole aggression thing a bit wrong. Somewhere on the second page he claims (paraphrased) that the only way the mission runner can aggress the carebear (ie: the ninja looter) is by shooting him, which allows the carebear to bring in his corpmates. What he doesn't get is that is backwards. When the evil carebear steals from the mission runner, the mission runner and his entire corporation can fire upon the evil carebear with impunity. The rest of the evil carebear's corporation cannot get involved in the shooting without concord getting miffed about the whole thing. The 'evil carebear' can get his corpies in to remote rep, provide cap etc.etc.etc. But unless you actually shoot at the helpers, they cannot get involved. There we go. (Yes I know..I'm feeding an elaborate troll..) So, with that little bit of clarification, how does that change Mr. Phoenix's stance on the evil carebears and their lack of risk? (I'm not even going into the strawmen burning, the appeals to authority, and the OP's shifting stances on who are the carebears, evil carebears, mission runners, pirates, ninjas, thieves or scum. Took me a couple read throughs and a playbook to get it straight.) -- Originally by: "RedSplat" You're the internet equivalent of a Deepfried Mars bar filled with stupid.

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