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UK, Inquiring minds want to know...

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Dinaahk Elam	Posted - 2009.11.04 09:43:00 - [1] A recent look of the concord records has shown that you engage in Piracy as shown here. And that the pilot was indeed punished by Concord here. Also recent records show that you actually were given some space from Against All Athorities here. Since you claim you dont pay rent, and you claim you didnt buy the space, we can assume that you are such great Allies with AAA because of your massive PVP prowess and Capital fleet, so you should be able to protect that space and the people in it. For the record inquiring minds would like to know if this Concord record was indeed you coming for your people? Were they inside? Or was the thought of a free Hulk inside? Or are you just Pirates and use the excuse of Freedom fighters as a cover story. You claim to be a NRDS Alliance, will your Overlords AAA allow you to open your space and allow you to administer it the way you see fit or are you really just pets? If you are AAA Holders then I guess you wont be able to do what you want in that space. If you are not then I guess you will want to allow neutrals use of your space as you did in Providence when you had space there. The question is simple, if UK are not Pirates we can assume that the Hulk was your people, and if your not AAA Pet Holders we can assume you want to administer your space freely and allow NRDS in it, since you claim to be NRDS, and if your truly Freedom Fighters we can assume that your overlords will allow you to sheapard the weak and have a safe haven in your space. So please UK fill us in and let us know, because all of this is quite confusing to me, and the multitude of others. Which is it? Sincerely, Dinaahk Elam
Lord Makk Trust Doesn't Rust Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.11.04 10:27:00 - [2] Catch and Providence are designated "free fire" zones for Ushra'Khan. This hardly needs explaining, as all the residents are either with us, or against us, even if neutral they still support the slaver empire by using their services and pay their taxes. The pilot in question has been dealt with. All who break our ROE will be. You see, many people that come to U'K have different backgrounds and some may disagree with certain things. Rest assured that it gets dealt with swiftly. You'll have to await an response from someone higher up the food chain about our space ;) The Cerbmeister
Kazzzi Amarr Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.11.04 11:31:00 - [3] Rare isolated incidents of ROE violation occur in every alliance. I can show you examples of ROE violations from virtually every single alliance in Providence, however, us more professional NRDS alliances take action swiftly when such an incident occurs. Personal opinion, not necessarily the opinion of Ushra'Khan: If a pilot or organization isn't willing to negotiate standings, I will not shoot them outside of a free fire zone, but if they aren't willing to help us end slavery, then I feel that they have no business in our space.
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.11.04 11:35:00 - [4] Originally by: Kazzzi if they aren't willing to help us end slavery, then I feel that they have no business in our space. Does "helping you to end slavery" include the adoption of negative standings towards pro-slavery groups? Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Kazzzi Amarr Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.11.04 11:53:00 - [5] Originally by: Rodj Blake Originally by: Kazzzi if they aren't willing to help us end slavery, then I feel that they have no business in our space. Does "helping you to end slavery" include the adoption of negative standings towards pro-slavery groups? It would simply include having the intestinal fortitude to take a stand and show some form of dedication to the cause. Nothing more, nothing less. I personally would welcome refugee aid station volunteers just as much as black ops combat pilots. I have never seen U'K dictate the ROE of allies.
zoolkhan Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.11.04 13:48:00 - [6] Originally by: Rodj Blake Originally by: Kazzzi if they aren't willing to help us end slavery, then I feel that they have no business in our space. Does "helping you to end slavery" include the adoption of negative standings towards pro-slavery groups? i personally dont care if he has blue or red to provibloc, as long he does something else that convinces me of his sincere efforts against the practise of slavery. naturally, if they shoot the slaver bloc - they will be redded by those, this is a possible effect, not a necessity. since there is just two things you can do in providence: - support slavery by docking, ratting and other means of filling the slavers pockets - shooting those who commit above its a clear a simple choice, and this has been elaboreated in devery detail ever and ever again. and ever again. its known. teh orinal poster either intended to launch yet another mudfight against us, ignoring our well known and well propagated policy or he is some rookie who failed to do his homework. the lack of corp or alliance, and any other tag suggest he does not even have a pod license and thus just hacked his way into galnet. Also interesting to see how much he admires concord, as if concord would be a fair entity - we all known theyre corrupted by amarr influence. recruiting -forum
Chooch Chooch Chooch Inc. Twilight Federation	Posted - 2009.11.04 14:10:00 - [7] as some who has been fighting UK in and out of space, in bars pubs, even Krull made me sign a no fire zone in his pleasure hub if a UK comes in. I can freely say they are not Pirates. How do we know this, yes they may be skinny and dark skinned and fly fast moving baoats that sneak up on unsspecting ships. Yes they may wear sunglasses in space, but the telltale eye pach and peg legs are usually missing, and instead of yelling ARRRR in local they yell we have come for our people. As for them killing a Hulk maybe it iwas run by slaves, or maybe it was a "slight weapons malfunction" On a side note after sticking up for UK here I think I need to take a shower as I suddenly feel dirty. But seriously criticize them where it should be don't make up stuff
Codo Yagari Epitoth Guard Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.04 14:44:00 - [8] The residents of Providence are of cultures from all over New Eden, and Amarr in itself is a very diverse society, it is a grave mistake for Ushra'Khan and other anti-slavery forces to conduct NBSI in Providence and even any other region. Some Amarrians do not support slavery, but this does not mean that we turn on our own heritage and fight it with ray and bomb. I do however consider it understandable that some, depending on heritage, perhaps as slaves, may have grudges against certain Amarrians, however this does by no means justify the murdering of the innocent. Providence is free space, and that freedom is maintained by CVA and the Holders. Why must those who are not opposed to these guardians of free space die? It is taking things too far. Way too far. Ushra'Khan as freedom fighters should not only fight against the enslaving of humans, but also against the political opression that NBSI policy is. NBSI is the means of the desperate. To completely convert to all-region NRDS would at least be a step in the right direction.
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.11.04 16:21:00 - [9] Originally by: Lord Makk Catch and Providence are designated "free fire" zones for Ushra'Khan. This hardly needs explaining, as all the residents are either with us, or against us, even if neutral they still support the slaver empire by using their services and pay their taxes. Is there a reason why Catch and Providence are free fire zones but the Amarr Empire, Khanid Kingdom or Ammatar Mandate are not? Since the pilots in those regions indirectly support slavery as well by taxes and fees? Is it perhaps because Ushra Khan pilots make use of Empire services and thereby indirectly support slavery themselves? I claim the 'indirectly supporting of slavery' argument is a false one. If you would indeed think so, then why not shun Empire markets and stations altogether and also apply your same principle there? ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Wanoah Minmatar Msana Foundation	Posted - 2009.11.04 16:26:00 - [10] I think my weaselometer broke.

Jakiin	Posted - 2009.11.04 17:51:00 - [11] From what I'm hearing, U'K doesn't have an NRDS policy at all. An NRDS policy is a policy where someone is allowed to disagree with you, but so long as they don't actively work against you, they're allowed to do whatever they want without you using it as an excuse to blow them up. U'K seems to have a policy that's more along the lines of 'With us or against us'. Either you're a brave fighter for freedom, equality, and love, or you're an evil slavery-supporting enemy of everything good. That's text book NBSI policy right there. The only difference is that they can't necessarily prove which side you're on outside of their main theatre of operations, so they've decided to adopt NRDS policy outside of it to avoid any mishaps. But that doesn't mean they're an alliance with an NRDSI policy. It means they're an alliance with a benefit of the doubt policy. Ushra'Khan: The only significant BOD alliance. Addendum: The original accusations of piracy are foolish. U'K can be described as terrorists, if you want to, but I have yet to see any instances of them committing piracy. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jakiin Holder Heir of the Kingdom 'Pacifist Reclaimer'
Dinaahk Elam Amarr Modern Marvels	Posted - 2009.11.04 20:28:00 - [12] Edited by: Dinaahk Elam on 04/11/2009 20:29:22 This is not about Providence, this is about the fact that you seem to be nothing more than Pirates who hide behind a cause so you can Pirate. You still have not answered my question, if neutrals came to your space would you give them refuge? or are you allowed to give them refuge? If you allow people to come and trade mine and rat in your space will that get AAA upset at you? How can you claim to be NBSI in Providence and Catch only? You only live in Providence and Catch, so therefore there would never be an incident where you would be NRDS. When UK had space in Providence you practiced NRDS, you lost that space unfortunately but such is life in 0.0 I guess. Earlier you claim to not want space, not need space, and now only a month or so later you are granted space. How will you be allowed to administer this space? Will your overlords AAA allow you to have neutrals in there to trade with you, buy from you, rat and dock in your stations and pay your fees and support your anti slavery position and cause? It is a fair question, How can neutrals help you? Will you allow Minmatar Faction Warefare Pilots to come to your space and rat sec and make isk? like the CVA do for support of Faction warefare? If I were to bring down 1000 Freedom Fighters and a rifter for them to do battle in your strugle would I be blown from the skies or allowed to dock in your stations and deliver an offering? It is a simple question, we all would like to know, are you bound by your AAA masters or are you free to do with your space as you wish? Or have you just changed one master (Amarrian Slaver) for another one (AAA Slaver)? Sincerely, Dinaahk Elam
Jakiin	Posted - 2009.11.04 20:42:00 - [13] Originally by: Dinaahk Elam This is not about Providence, this is about the fact that you seem to be nothing more than Pirates who hide behind a cause so you can Pirate. Show us other records of them pirating. A single pilot pirating does not make U'K a pirate gang. Quote: You still have not answered my question, if neutrals came to your space would you give them refuge? or are you allowed to give them refuge? If you allow people to come and trade mine and rat in your space will that get AAA upset at you? Already answered: In free fire zones, neutrals get shot at. They live in the free fire zones. 1 + 1 equals... Quote: How can you claim to be NBSI in Providence and Catch only? You only live in Providence and Catch, so therefore there would never be an incident where you would be NRDS. Largely agreed, though it does mean that if a couple U'K pilots for their own personal reasons decided to fly outside of Providence/Catch, they wouldn't be allowed to just shoot at anyone that looked at them funny. Quote: When UK had space in Providence you practiced NRDS, you lost that space unfortunately but such is life in 0.0 I guess. Earlier you claim to not want space, not need space, and now only a month or so later you are granted space. Is this really surprising? I doubt there's any Alliance out there that will openly say "Yeah, we're pretty much screwed." U'K wasn't screwed, they continued to do well, and the space was a bonus. Quote: How will you be allowed to administer this space? Will your overlords AAA allow you to have neutrals in there to trade with you, buy from you, rat and dock in your stations and pay your fees and support your anti slavery position and cause? It is a fair question, How can neutrals help you? Will you allow Minmatar Faction Warefare Pilots to come to your space and rat sec and make isk? like the CVA do for support of Faction warefare? CVAs purpose is to expand Imperial Space into nullsec. The TLF are enemies of the Empire, the 24th are supposed allies of the Empire. However CVA does not as a group support the 24th because CVA views them as far too disorganized. So there is no faction warfare support beyond coincidence: CVA might, at some point, fight members of the TLF if the TLF were to invade their space, but that would be the extent of their faction warfare. Quote: If I were to bring down 1000 Freedom Fighters and a rifter for them to do battle in your strugle would I be blown from the skies or allowed to dock in your stations and deliver an offering? It is a simple question, we all would like to know, are you bound by your AAA masters or are you free to do with your space as you wish? Or have you just changed one master (Amarrian Slaver) for another one (AAA Slaver)? This is the only relatively worthwhile question in the whole piece, but simply because AAA requires some rules to be followed does not make them slavers. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jakiin Holder Heir of the Kingdom 'Pacifist Reclaimer'
Sapphrine Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.11.04 20:58:00 - [14] Edited by: Sapphrine on 04/11/2009 21:03:27 You'll notice that the pilot is no longer in U'K. We also take a dim view on pointless piracy. Piracy against slavers is simply the redistribution of wrongfully gotten gains. I call it piracy to save you the trouble. Amarrian slavers are very much red to us and when we find new ones they are added as such. The matter is closed
Dinaahk Elam Amarr Modern Marvels	Posted - 2009.11.04 21:37:00 - [15] Originally by: Sapphrine Edited by: Sapphrine on 04/11/2009 21:03:27 You'll notice that the pilot is no longer in U'K. We also take a dim view on pointless piracy. Piracy against slavers is simply the redistribution of wrongfully gotten gains. I call it piracy to save you the trouble. Amarrian slavers are very much red to us and when we find new ones they are added as such. The matter is closed It is good to see the UK made an example of him for the others in your organization, and set him aside. However I have yet to be answered my question. Will UK support freedom in thier space and endorse NRDS in your space and allow refuge to those who seek it, or wont AAA allow that? Will you set up a haven like others and allow free trade, mining, ratting, and the general supportive nature that you accuse neutrals doing in Providence in your space for you? If your truly NRDS or well want to be why wont it work in your space now like it did in Prvidence before? Are you allowed to administer your space as you see fit? Sincerely, Dinaahk Elam
Karn Mithralia Minmatar Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.11.04 23:00:00 - [16] Edited by: Karn Mithralia on 04/11/2009 23:01:46 Dinaahk, we are free to run our space as we see fit, that means operating NRDS and set standings if and as we choose. However, all our neighbors in the region operate NBSI and as we are completely surrounded by our allies there is no way into our space without 'running the gauntlet' so to speak. This means 2 things. The first is that anyone wanting access to our space (including our blues) needs positive standings from our allies, something they need work out for themselves (we are of course willing to put in the good word where appropriate). Not becuase we won't let them in without positive standings, but because they likely won't get to our space intact. The second is we simply don't get neutrals in our space so the point is almost entirely moot. 0.0 away from the empire entrances is much simpler in this regard, something often overlooked by empire dwellers when they criticize NBSI alliances. Of course we could pressure our allies to work toward running free-space, but this is not our goal, nor our priority. We support the ideal of free space and operate NRDS everywhere we feel militarily appropriate, but our goal is to end slavery and particularly the infestation in Providence and upper Catch. Here's some food for thought: just a couple of days ago we allowed a red convey into our space so that several hundred slaves could be delivered into our care. We requested they be allowed free passage from our allies in our space, and held fire ourselves. This despite the fact the convoy was red to us and is an enemy on any other day. It's all about priorities.
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.11.04 23:30:00 - [17] Originally by: Karn Mithralia Dinaahk, we are free to run our space as we see fit, that means operating NRDS and set standings if and as we choose. However, all our neighbors in the region operate NBSI and as we are completely surrounded by our allies there is no way into our space without 'running the gauntlet' so to speak. Mr. Mithralia, I understand that you cannot accept responsibility for people that get shot while trying to get to your space. However, is a neutral pilot that has 'run the gauntlet' and arrived in your space exempt from fire by you and your allies? Do your allies operate NRDS in your space, or will you sit idly by and perhaps nod approvingly if one of your allies shoots a neutral in your space? If you are unable to enforce NRDS upon your allies in your space, is it really your space? If you are unwilling to enforce NRDS upon your allies in your space, are you really practicing NRDS? ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Karn Mithralia Minmatar Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.11.05 00:15:00 - [18] There's always one .. provide an honest answer and some slaver muck raker tries to make more of it than exists. Merdaneth, we operate NBSI in all of Catch, make of that what you will, I won't repeat myself for your entertainment.
Dinaahk Elam Amarr Modern Marvels	Posted - 2009.11.05 01:06:00 - [19] So basically by isolating yourselves into a piece of space where you use AAA as a meatshield your saying you cant allow NRDS, and you dont want that space anyway kinda. So you have in a nutshell answered my question, your no different than any other NBSI Alliance you hide behind a failed ideal, and preach that what goes on elsewhere is wrong, but your unwilling to do what is right in your own space. No wonder Providence grows daily, they basically do the exact opposite of what the UK do and people flock to them, the region grows, people grow and make friends forge Alliances and infrastructure while you sit behind AAA precaching your anti slavery, when actually your just nothing more than AAA, Atlas, Goons, Bob / kenny / It, PL, NC etall. I was hoping for a real UK esque answer instead I got a run around and deflection of the facts your not any different than any other 0.0 space holding Alliance and thier pets. I was really hoping to see growth and potential of what was UK, but all I got is what UK is now. :( Sincerely, Dinaahk Elam
Jakiin	Posted - 2009.11.05 01:10:00 - [20] Originally by: Karn Mithralia There's always one .. provide an honest answer and some slaver muck raker tries to make more of it than exists. Merdaneth, we operate NBSI in all of Catch, make of that what you will, I won't repeat myself for your entertainment. I can make the question more compact. If an ally is in your space, and a neutral or red (to the ally, mind) is present there, do you allow that ally to fire upon the pilot which is neutral to you? This is an entirely different question from what you addressed, though you did address that question quite well. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jakiin Holder Heir of the Kingdom 'Pacifist Reclaimer'

Kazzzi Amarr Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.11.05 02:21:00 - [21] *Kazzzi looks at a map Why does everyone insist upon basically comparing U'K to the Providence block? We are 1/10 the size of Provi, if that. We are fighting a war against far superior numbers and live close to the front lines. Truly neutral parties don't have easy access to where our space is located deep in Catch, we don't have hisec entrances available to them. Only an idiot or a Modern Marvel propaganda bot would expect us to treat our space any differently than our current ROE dictates. We just broke ground on our new space, northern Catch is still in enemy hands and there is a war ongoing. To claim our space is safe for outsiders would be premature. Once the Imperial sympathizers are defeated, slavery ended and the region is secure then maybe we can start to think about the neutrals.
Sapphrine Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.11.05 08:41:00 - [22] Lets try once more in simple words so that you might understand Dinaahk. We fight Slavery. CVA support the Amarrian empire and claim Providence for the empire. We aim to disagree. By operating the region NRDS they create a meat shield and fund their operation in the area. By this alone, anyone operating in Providence is likely to be supporting slavers either divectly or by filling their coffers. This is the reason providence is a free fire zone. Catch is a free fire zone because it is what is needed to deal with the security in the area and the region is held by -a-. But what if a neutral gets to our space and wants to live there? Well the answer is i'd be rather impressed. To have traversed at least one region of 0.0 space without thinking to speak to any of the space holding entities involved and not to discuss standings just to say, 'is it ok to come here?'. Your argument is absurd. If a neutral shows up in deep Catch they didn't just accidentally roll into the space, they have shown up for a reason. If they haven't contacted us first then there is every chance that they will be shot. I mean really, if we announced neutrals are welcome in u'k space how happy do you think people would be about getting slaughtered jumping through HED-GP / Doril. It is hardly like they can just jump in from empire space and be in our space. As Karn showed, even reds can have safe passage in our space for the right reasons. Finally, -a- are our allies. They don't dictate standings to us and we don't tell them to set people blue. We were gifted our space as we had proved ourselves in their eyes and it was seen as necessary for our continued growth as an alliance. I understand that the concept is alien to slavers but try to understand that two groups can act in such a way that is mutually beneficial with a little bit of thought :)
Sapphrine Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.11.05 08:58:00 - [23] Originally by: Jakiin Originally by: Karn Mithralia There's always one .. provide an honest answer and some slaver muck raker tries to make more of it than exists. Merdaneth, we operate NBSI in all of Catch, make of that what you will, I won't repeat myself for your entertainment. I can make the question more compact. If an ally is in your space, and a neutral or red (to the ally, mind) is present there, do you allow that ally to fire upon the pilot which is neutral to you? This is an entirely different question from what you addressed, though you did address that question quite well. So your question is, do we dictate standings in our space whilst claiming that the area we hold is open to all and that people are free to use the space as they like? No we don't dictate standings to our allies. Something about this mutual respect rather than holder - master relationship. I think the problem in this thread is that alot of people seem to not understand that there are more ways to run NRDS than Pax Providence make out.
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.11.05 11:11:00 - [24] Originally by: Kazzzi We just broke ground on our new space, northern Catch is still in enemy hands and there is a war ongoing. To claim our space is safe for outsiders would be premature. Once the Imperial sympathizers are defeated, slavery ended and the region is secure then maybe we can start to think about the neutrals. Your space is not safe for outsiders because you shoot at them. That has nothing to do with the Providence block. Basically, Ushra Khan has an NBSI policy in all the territories they frequent. Who really cares that Ushra Khan uses NRDS in the Drone Region or Delve? What people care most about is what policy an alliance uses in their own space and the space the visit frequently. I can understand that your space isn't safe due to the war, but you are actively making your space unsafe. You claim that people using Providence are indirectly supporting slavery. Would not people making use of your space indirectly support your own cause? However, you fire on both supporters of slavery and those against slavery in your own space. Embrace your own pragmatism and bloodlust and stop painting these illusions of benevolence or NRDS. At this moment in its history Ushra Khan preys on neutrals because it feels it needs to. That's all there is too it. Providence is a region of principles. People don't fire on neutral even though there are wars ongoing. That's the difference between moral Amarrian and an immoral terrorist. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.11.05 11:16:00 - [25] Originally by: Sapphrine I think the problem in this thread is that alot of people seem to not understand that there are more ways to run NRDS than Pax Providence make out. Running NRDS in high-security space is easy. Running NRDS in regions you rarely visit is easy. Running NRDS in the region you claim for your own, that is hard. I only enslave people in the Amarr Empire, I don't enslave people in the Republic or elsewhere where the local laws don't allow it. Does that make me pro-slavery or against slavery? Now, please apply the same logic to your NRDS stance. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Kazzzi Amarr Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.11.05 12:02:00 - [26] Edited by: Kazzzi on 05/11/2009 12:05:20 Originally by: Merdaneth Your space is not safe for outsiders because you shoot at them. That has nothing to do with the Providence block. Basically, Ushra Khan has an NBSI policy in all the territories they frequent. Who really cares that Ushra Khan uses NRDS in the Drone Region or Delve? What people care most about is what policy an alliance uses in their own space and the space the visit frequently. You really don't know what you are talking about. When we lived in the Curse region, we maintained NRDS in Curse. This made it difficult to operate due to the extreme hostile nature of the area, but we followed our ROE and focused our attention on slaver infested Catch and Providence. Our ROE is well publicized and easy to understand. Feel free to interpret it however you wish in order to invent arguments to slander us, but we've already heard it all before. You may call us pirates or terrorists, but it doesn't change the fact that we come for our people.
Jowen Datloran Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.11.05 12:41:00 - [27] There seems to be a common misunderstanding going on; Ushra'Khan are freedom fighters. They fight against the freedom of others, it is quite simple really. ---------------- Mr. Science & Trade Institute
Mattduk Gallente Universal Army Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.11.05 13:21:00 - [28] Originally by: Merdaneth Originally by: Sapphrine I think the problem in this thread is that alot of people seem to not understand that there are more ways to run NRDS than Pax Providence make out. Running NRDS in high-security space is easy. Running NRDS in regions you rarely visit is easy. Running NRDS in the region you claim for your own, that is hard. I only enslave people in the Amarr Empire, I don't enslave people in the Republic or elsewhere where the local laws don't allow it. Does that make me pro-slavery or against slavery? Now, please apply the same logic to your NRDS stance. Oh please... Someone remove this guy's access to galnet! What is your goal, pilot? Are you calling is liars or are you trying to convince us to use NRDS everywhere? Originally by: Merdaneth I only enslave people in the Amarr Empire, I don't enslave people in the Republic or elsewhere where the local laws don't allow it. Does that make me pro-slavery or against slavery? If you enslave people, you are pro slavery, no matter where you do it. You people make me sick. We must all hang together or most assuredly we shall hang separately.
Stratio Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.11.05 13:28:00 - [29] Stratio laughs at Dinaahk Elam's propaganda attempt. _____________________ For Tribe and Honour!
Sapphrine Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.11.05 14:56:00 - [30] Originally by: Merdaneth Originally by: Sapphrine I think the problem in this thread is that alot of people seem to not understand that there are more ways to run NRDS than Pax Providence make out. Running NRDS in high-security space is easy. Running NRDS in regions you rarely visit is easy. Running NRDS in the region you claim for your own, that is hard. I only enslave people in the Amarr Empire, I don't enslave people in the Republic or elsewhere where the local laws don't allow it. Does that make me pro-slavery or against slavery? Now, please apply the same logic to your NRDS stance. Thats an interesting argument if i ever heard any. ok so you only enslave people in your space but you don't do it elsewhere in this example and you want me to map that to our nrds stance. So in turn we only run NRDS in our space but NBSI everywhere else? Thats what logic would dictate based on what you said.... If you mean for me to work out what you actually mean and take your general meaning that you think we should operate nrds in our space based on the comparison that it works in providence then please see my explaination further up this thread. You're rehashing the same argument. NRDS in an empire border region is likely to mean alot of people entering your space are true neutral. NRDS in a region 20 jumps from the nearest empire entrance? Which true neutrals are you going to see out there then? Even CVA allows provi holders to shoot neutrals that have little to no history with concord and are acting suspiciously, its just common sense. So to sum up, we have an 'enquiring mind' highlighting a case where we have a u'k pilot committing piracy and being ejected from the alliance for it and we have a second point asking why we don't run space deep in null sec as a nrds haven in an nbsi sea and further thinly veiled suggestions that we're both -a- pets or should be dictating how they act in our space.... You slavers are a confusing bunch you know...

Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.11.05 15:52:00 - [31] Originally by: Sapphrine So in turn we only run NRDS in our space but NBSI everywhere else? Thats what logic would dictate based on what you said.... Indeed, it is my belief that someone who stands for a particular policy needs to start with applying that policy in his own back yard first and expand from there. Practice what you preach. Originally by: Sapphrine NRDS in an empire border region is likely to mean alot of people entering your space are true neutral. NRDS in a region 20 jumps from the nearest empire entrance? Which true neutrals are you going to see out there then? Even CVA allows provi holders to shoot neutrals that have little to no history with concord and are acting suspiciously, its just common sense. Mr. Sapphrine, you are confusing cause and effect. There are few neutrals in your space now because every neutral has a high risk of getting attacked in your space (or on its way there). Your claim that the few that come there cannot be neutrals and therefore NBSI is justified is frankly a bit ridiculous. A bad neighbourhood exists because bad people there attack good people. You are claiming that you are good people who live in a bad neighbourhood, and that you need to shoot everyone that comes there because if they enter your bad neighbourhood, they must be bad people themselves, because good people wouldn't want to come there voluntarily anyway! You can be a beacon of light in a neigbourhood of bad and violent NBSI organization who only care about their friends and try and kill everyone they do not know. You can choose to set an example, inspire others to not try and kill everyone that aren't their friends. Instead you choose to be another gang of bullies and perpetuate the circle of violence. If you truly care about a clean and orderly home, start cleaning up your own house first. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Sapphrine Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.11.05 16:01:00 - [32] Or from another light, we'd rather not tell a bunch of innocents to run through 20 jumps with a very high chance of getting them killed just to get to our space and then have to turn around and do the same thing back. As your colleague has noted, u'k do not enforce our ROE on others in our space so our space would not be safe. I see no motivation for the neturals to be coming to our space, they risk death on the way to us and death whilst in our space. I see no benefit to us opening our space up that way as we do not charge our supporters to dock in our stations unlike the Providence holders. We have a clean and orderly home. We have clear area's of engagement and they are explained in detail all over the place. This thread is just one example. We have a mission to oppose slavery. That does not hang on us running NRDS all over space. We CHOOSE to run NRDS it focuses our pilots on the task at hand. We do not tolerate piracy in u'k for this reason also. Are we done yet or would you like to try and restate your point yet another way?
Xennith Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.11.05 18:08:00 - [33] If im reading this thread right, it boils down to 3 arguments. 1: Dhinak: UK are pirates. UK: We kick members for engaging in acts of piracy. 2. Dhinak: UK should force their ROE onto their allies. UK: No, we shouldn't. 3. Dhinak: UK should attempt to mimic the "freespace" of CVA. UK: No, we dont want to spend our time defending neutrals, we have slaves to free. Thanks for telling us how we should be going about our business, its much appreciated. Next time we decide to completely change our priorities to appease you, Ill send you a mail. Conversely, if you ever get the urge to smacktalk UK again, please do not hesitate to send me a mail, I hear that allegations of pethood and cloaking are all the rage in jita.
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.11.05 20:46:00 - [34] Mr. Sapphrine, I am not claiming UK are pirates. In fact, I find the UK position quite sensible. NRDS vs. NBSI is not a non-piracy vs. piracy debate. Piracy is about personal profit by any means. UK is not about that. NRDS is about trusting people that have not yet proven themselves friendly, NBSI is about not trusting people that have not yet proven themselves friendly. I fully understand that UK is not in a position to give neutrals the benefit of the doubt. I fully understand UK is not in the position the investigate every unknown flying around in Providence and confirming if he really a supporter of slavery or just a bystander. You have more important goals, goals that at this point in time does not allow you to trust others unless they have proven friendly, vouched for, or are otherwise directly aiding in some UK goal. However, don't come on the IGS pretending you are an NRDS alliance. At this moment, you are at war, and you are not trusting people unless they proven themselves friendly. That's NBSI. Pragmatism before principle has ever been the Matari way. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Dinaahk Elam Amarr Modern Marvels	Posted - 2009.11.05 21:00:00 - [35] Originally by: Xennith If im reading this thread right, it boils down to 3 arguments. 1: Dhinak: UK are pirates. UK: We kick members for engaging in acts of piracy. 2. Dhinak: UK should force their ROE onto their allies. UK: No, we shouldn't. 3. Dhinak: UK should attempt to mimic the "freespace" of CVA. UK: No, we dont want to spend our time defending neutrals, we have slaves to free. Thanks for telling us how we should be going about our business, its much appreciated. Next time we decide to completely change our priorities to appease you, Ill send you a mail. Conversely, if you ever get the urge to smacktalk UK again, please do not hesitate to send me a mail, I hear that allegations of pethood and cloaking are all the rage in jita. 1. UK corrected this by expelling the member in question, good work. 2. If UK are going to have space and they claim NRDS, they should allow NRDS in thier home systems, reguardless of how I get there, unless they cant keep AAA from killing people in thier space. Which shouldnt be that hard tbh unless AAA dictate to UK how the space will be run. 3. You should be proud of your space gifted you, and mimic the "freespace" you once had in Providence. you yourself have said that people have to go through so many hostile jumps to get there, you wont have to defend them since it is such a horrible journey. Surely they ones that would prey upon your friends and residents would meet the same fate as a lonely Bestower filled with trade goods on its way to support you. Sincerely, Dinaahk Elam
Xennith Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.11.05 21:26:00 - [36] Originally by: Dinaahk Elam [ 2. If UK are going to have space and they claim NRDS, they should allow NRDS in thier home systems, reguardless of how I get there Ill be honest with you. What you think we should do, and what we think we should do are two distinct and different things. Our ROE are not secret, they are well understood by most people operating in the area. We are not a police force, we are freedom fighters and mollycoddling pod pilots who want to get rich off our backs is not a priority. Deal with it. Quote: unless they cant keep AAA from killing people in thier space. Which shouldnt be that hard tbh unless AAA dictate to UK how the space will be run. AAA are free to chose their ROE themselves. What kind of freedom fighters would we be if we started trying to force everyone to obey us? Why should we care if third parties kill other third parties? How does attempting to police that space for people with no interest in fighting the good fight advance our cause? Quote: 3. You should be proud of your space gifted you, and mimic the "freespace" you once had in Providence. You should throw yourself out of an airlock. Ill hold the door open for you. Quote: you yourself have said that people have to go through so many hostile jumps to get there, you wont have to defend them since it is such a horrible journey. Surely they ones that would prey upon your friends and residents would meet the same fate as a lonely Bestower filled with trade goods on its way to support you. Ive said no such thing. Im not sure what your point is here, but heres mine: We dont need you to tell us what we should be doing. We already know, we should be fighting slavers and their minions. Being NRDS outside of Providence and Catch prevents our members getting caught up in less savoury activities, and frankly we have enough enemies already without provoking new ones thanks.
Tiberus Blackwell	Posted - 2009.11.05 22:49:00 - [37] thread is no suprise here,just more of the same lies and double talk expected from uk
Xennith Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.11.05 23:05:00 - [38] Because the OP was so unbiased? Where are these lies? Where is the doubletalk? Our position is clear and has been for some time, just as the position of our detractors is, slate UK with anything you can think of. Invoke strawman arguments of what we "should" be doing and then attack us for not doing it.
Jakiin	Posted - 2009.11.05 23:09:00 - [39] Originally by: Xennith Because the OP was so unbiased? Where are these lies? Where is the doubletalk? Our position is clear and has been for some time, just as the position of our detractors is, slate UK with anything you can think of. Invoke strawman arguments of what we "should" be doing and then attack us for not doing it. That's not what a strawman argument actually is. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jakiin Holder Heir of the Kingdom 'Pacifist Reclaimer'
Xennith Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.11.05 23:11:00 - [40] Inventing a position, ascribing it to your opponent, and then attacking it. Seems pretty applicable here to be honest, if you want to argue semantics, send a convo request to my neocom.

Jakiin	Posted - 2009.11.05 23:25:00 - [41] I see little reason to, we can wrap this up here. Are straw man arguments applicable to this discussion? Yes, on both sides they have been used. However a straw man is by definition a weaker version of an opponent's argument, which exists for the sole reason of being disproven. The theory is that by disproving this argument you disprove the opponent's real argument, which is of course ridiculous. If a weaker or distorted version of the argument is created for the purpose of telling someone they should be doing that, it ceases to be a straw man. Similar, perhaps, but not actually a straw man. If you want to make this more relevant to the topic at hand I'll just say I agree with Merdanenth's latest post almost to the T, so we can argue pointlessly about that as well. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jakiin Holder Heir of the Kingdom 'Pacifist Reclaimer'
Sapphrine Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.11.06 00:06:00 - [42] Originally by: Merdaneth Mr. Sapphrine, However, don't come on the IGS pretending you are an NRDS alliance. At this moment, you are at war, and you are not trusting people unless they proven themselves friendly. That's NBSI. Pragmatism before principle has ever been the Matari way. That is indeed correct and is exactly what we stipulate, NBSI in our free fire zones which are very clearly indicated. That would be Providence and Catch, the area that we are running a full scale war. The rest of New Eden runs under NRDS. That is because our principles are important to us as well as pragmatism. So yes I can come into here and happily state we are an NRDS alliance that will clearly define where it is NBSI to engage in our key mission of pushing the slaver creep into 0.0 back. I think we really are done here. If you'd like to debate any further on the matter and actually want a response from u'k on the matter kindly send me a private band neo-com.
zoolkhan Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.11.06 09:27:00 - [43] Maybe ushrakhan reps could start to crosslink to the thousand previous threads where our ROE's have been explained in lenght and detail and with great patience. a "neutral" that reaches our tiny military camp we have set up, is 100% sure a hostile scout. Allies would announce their neutrals beforehands, "real" neutrals would contact us already before jumping through the pipe. This is so obvious and crystal clear, that i cannot help but to firmly belief anyone still questioning our good reasons - lacks the grey matter required to get a pod pilot license, by matari standards at least. I always had respect for CVA for upholding NBSI in the space they've occupied in the name of the empire and custom of slavery. Because clearly, the administrative work and policing is a huge challenge. But my respect instantly fades away for people who dont manage to aknowledge our own reasons by walking in our shoes for a day. recruiting -forum
Nur AlHuda Amarr Callide Vulpis	Posted - 2009.11.06 11:16:00 - [44] Edited by: Nur AlHuda on 06/11/2009 11:23:50 Edited by: Nur AlHuda on 06/11/2009 11:23:06 So in conclusion... UK is NRDS in their space (but their allies are allowed to go NBSI in UK territory) and they are NRDS in empire. Which makes the policy not red dont shoot a total joke. Its somethink in the line we will not stab you to the death but we will watch how someone will do it for us. Originally by: Xennith Originally by: Dinaahk Elam [ Quote: unless they cant keep AAA from killing people in thier space. Which shouldnt be that hard tbh unless AAA dictate to UK how the space will be run. Quote: AAA are free to chose their ROE themselves. What kind of freedom fighters would we be if we started trying to force everyone to obey us? Why should we care if third parties kill other third parties? How does attempting to police that space for people with no interest in fighting the good fight advance our cause? This is not about freedom fighting or not. Either UK can enforce their ideas and policy in their area or not.
Kazzzi Amarr Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.11.06 11:26:00 - [45] Originally by: Nur AlHuda So in conclusion... UK is NRDS in their space (but their allies are allowed to go NBSI in UK territory) and they are NRDS in empire. Which makes the policy not red dont shoot a total joke. Its somethink in the line we will not stab you to the death but we will watch how someone will do it for us. *Kazzzi chuckles as all the Imperialists keep trying to shove square pegs into round holes. No, we're NBSI in our own space for the reasons which have already been elaborated upon several dozen times in many threads. I'm sorry if we're breaking the Providence paradigm which you have been brainwashed with.
Mattduk Gallente Universal Army Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.11.06 12:39:00 - [46] Ok, one more time for the cheap seats. UK IS NRDS EVERYWHERE EXCEPT FOR CATCH AND PROVIDENCE. Everywhere but catch and Providence is NRDS Catch and Providence are NBSI If you can't understand that please hand your pilots license back to whomever issued it to you. And, please, whatever you do, don't attempt to install any implants. I don't think your miniature brains could deal with it. Thanks We must all hang together or most assuredly we shall hang separately.
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.11.06 13:59:00 - [47] Originally by: Mattduk If you can't understand that please hand your pilots license back to whomever issued it to you. And, please, whatever you do, don't attempt to install any implants. I don't think your miniature brains could deal with it. "I am against slavery, but not in my own home or the places I visit regularly, I'm just against slavery abroad..." Even if this claim were true, it just wouldn't make sense to anyone. People have trouble with understanding it because the way you are trying to sell your ROE don't make sense. UK is not NRDS with exceptions, UK is NBSI with exceptions. If you just reverse your ROE explanation, it would make things a lot clearer while not changing your ROE one bit. Is it so hard to admit you have become an NBSI alliance with exceptions instead of the other way around? ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Tovran Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.11.06 14:23:00 - [48] Originally by: Merdaneth "I am against slavery, but not in my own home or the places I visit regularly, I'm just against slavery abroad..." Even if this claim were true, it just wouldn't make sense to anyone. People have trouble with understanding it because the way you are trying to sell your ROE don't make sense. UK is not NRDS with exceptions, UK is NBSI with exceptions. If you just reverse your ROE explanation, it would make things a lot clearer while not changing your ROE one bit. Is it so hard to admit you have become an NBSI alliance with exceptions instead of the other way around? ROE: NBSI in Catch and Providence NRDS in the rest of New Eden Hmmmm, à :EOR ecnedivorP dna hctaC ni ISBN need weN fo tser eht ni SDRN There you go Merdaneth I reversed the ROE for you. Hope that clears things up for you. The rest is opinions and semantics.
Conlin Gallente Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.11.06 15:21:00 - [49] Straws & Clutching at .... I dont know what it is they put in those Op's in the KW - KA6 pipe , whatever it is , its messing with their heads . Its like SSI all over again , just a different tag .
Shiroi Okami Gallente Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.11.06 15:45:00 - [50] I don't see what the confusion is about. Providence and CATCH are NBSI regions for us. CATCH is a region. Our space is in CATCH, we live in CATCH, we are NBSI in CATCH. Thus we will shoot neutrals in CATCH. We are NRDS outside of providence and CATCH. Clear enough for you? NB; certain words have been capitalised in the above for those who seem to have difficulty understanding what CATCH means.

Stratio Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.11.06 16:54:00 - [51] Originally by: Merdaneth UK is not NRDS with exceptions, UK is NBSI with exceptions. We are NRDS everywhere *except* in two regions, that sounds very much like "NRDS with exceptions" to me. _____________________ For Tribe and Honour!
Anabella Rella Minmatar Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.11.06 17:45:00 - [52] Don't you imperialists have anything better to do than stir up this tired debate every few cycles? While our alliances and member corporations have some very fundamental disagreements on how best to help the Matari people, one thing can be said; U'K are most certainly NOT pirates. Their RoE are clear and well known. They are not hypocrites. They can and do deal with others according to their rules without outside interference or questioning. Of course why let a few facts get in the way of a biased assessment, huh? (It should go without saying--but I'll say it anyway--that the above statements are merely the opinions of a single pilot and are not to be construed as official Gradient or E-M pronouncements)
Mattduk Gallente Universal Army Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.11.06 18:59:00 - [53] Originally by: Merdaneth People have trouble with understanding it because the way you are trying to sell your ROE don't make sense. UK is not NRDS with exceptions, UK is NBSI with exceptions. If you just reverse your ROE explanation, it would make things a lot clearer while not changing your ROE one bit. Is it so hard to admit you have become an NBSI alliance with exceptions instead of the other way around? Actually, no, Only a few morons have a hard time understanding it beecause they cannot make sense of it. That's very different from what you are describing. Let me try another way of explaining.... How many known regions are there in New Eden? We are NBSI in two of them. We are NRDS in the remainder. What are there? 65 regions? We are NRDS in 63 regions We are NBSI in 2 regions. Which of those would you describe as the exception? The 63 regions we are NRDS in or the 2 regions we are NBSI in? I think you would have a very hard time trying to prove a rule where 63 exceptions exist in a total of 65 scenarios.
Jakiin	Posted - 2009.11.06 20:08:00 - [54] Originally by: Mattduk Actually, no, Only a few morons have a hard time understanding it beecause they cannot make sense of it. That's very different from what you are describing. Let me try another way of explaining.... How many known regions are there in New Eden? We are NBSI in two of them. We are NRDS in the remainder. What are there? 65 regions? We are NRDS in 63 regions. We are NBSI in 2 regions. Which of those would you describe as the exception? The 63 regions we are NRDS in or the 2 regions we are NBSI in? I think you would have a very hard time trying to prove a rule where 63 exceptions exist in a total of 65 scenarios. Yes, we would. It would be very, very difficult. That's assuming of course that you spent about 1/65th of your time in each region, giving an even distribution. As it is you spend 80-90% or more of your time within, so we're arguing percentage rather than regions. Arguing regions would just be ignoring the facts. The argument is that you are NRDS 10-20% of the time, and NBSI 80-90% of the time. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jakiin Holder Heir of the Kingdom 'Pacifist Reclaimer'
Mattduk Gallente Universal Army Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.11.06 20:33:00 - [55] The only problem with your theory is that you are making a huge assumption about what we do, where we do it and how long we do it for. Nobody knows the truth about that. The policy is in place for a reason. We don't want our pilots shooting up neutrals in empire. That's the bottom line. So we have a blanket NRDS policy, except (note that word) for the two regions where we want our pilots to go nuts, have a ball, and proverbially knock themselves out. Now you can continue to argue about the color of s**te all you want, but it is what it is. We must all hang together or most assuredly we shall hang separately.
Kazzzi Amarr Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.11.06 20:41:00 - [56] The two regions which are the exception, hmmm, I wonder why those would be the exception and I wonder why we would focus a bit of our time there? Maybe the reason has something to do with our sworn enemies living there? Of course most Provi sympathizers believe the universe revolves around Provi and therefore can't stand having their precious space regarded as some sort of "exception".
Il Morte	Posted - 2009.11.06 20:58:00 - [57] People this aint rocket science here. UK is NBSI in their space in catch as well as in Providence where there enemy is and in the rest of catch. This is not hard however so as not to confuse them with the rest of the alliances who are NBSI in their own space. UK is NRDS elsewhere. So if you run into them in Immensia and you are a neut to them you are safe. If you run into them in Derelik or Curse and you are neut you are safe. However if you run into them in providence, catch or visit their systems in catch you are not safe. Therefore UK is SNRDS (selevtivley Not red don't shoot) or they are NBSIOIOHSPC (Not Blue shoot it only in our home systems providence catch)
Kazzzi Amarr Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.11.06 21:10:00 - [58] Originally by: Jakiin Yes, we would. It would be very, very difficult. That's assuming of course that you spent about 1/65th of your time in each region, giving an even distribution. As it is you spend 80-90% or more of your time within, so we're arguing percentage rather than regions. Arguing regions would just be ignoring the facts. The argument is that you are NRDS 10-20% of the time, and NBSI 80-90% of the time. Why would we spend 1/65th of our time in every region? Why would that matter? We operate in Catch/Provi because the slavers live there. We are NBSI in Catch/Provi because the slavers live there. We fight for a purpose and don't simply rampage all across New Eden killing everyone we see just for sadistic pleasure. ((This thread has become nothing more than metagame bickering and should be locked))
Jakiin	Posted - 2009.11.06 21:18:00 - [59] Edited by: Jakiin on 06/11/2009 21:25:53 Originally by: Kazzzi Why would we spend 1/65th of our time in every region? Why would that matter? We operate in Catch/Provi because the slavers live there. We are NBSI in Catch/Provi because the slavers live there. We fight for a purpose and don't simply rampage all across New Eden killing everyone we see just for sadistic pleasure. You're off the topic, I wasn't saying you should spend an equal amount of time all over New Eden. I'm simply saying that if you're NBSI in the regions you spend 80-90% of your time in, you have more of an NBSI policy than an NRDS policy. Post script: However, I would like to point out that in technical terms you don't have either an NRDS policy or an NBSI policy, you have the BOD policy. Which might just make you unique. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jakiin Holder Heir of the Kingdom 'Pacifist Reclaimer'
Kazzzi Amarr Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.11.06 21:43:00 - [60] Originally by: Jakiin You're off the topic, I wasn't saying you should spend an equal amount of time all over New Eden. I'm simply saying that if you're NBSI in the regions you spend 80-90% of your time in, you have more of an NBSI policy than an NRDS policy. No, I'm not off topic, I'm just not saying what you want to hear. Slaver Sympathizers > You can't be NRDS in one place and NBSI in another U'K > Yes we can Slaver Sympathizers > Well, we don't agree U'K > Dont care Slaver Sympathizers > You need to admit you practice NBSI U'K > We do admit it, NBSI in catch and provi, NRDS everywhere else Slaver Sympathizers > Well, we don't like that U'K > Dont care Slaver Sympathizers > Thats not real NRDS U'K > Yes it is Slaver Sympathizers > No it isn't U'K > Yes it is Slaver Sympathizers > No it isn't U'K > Says who? Slaver Sympathizers > We do U'K > Don't care what you say Slaver Sympathizers > You're more NBSI than NRDS U'K > Semantics and opinion, get over it We done yet? Can we all get back to our pods now and do the slaver/freedom fighter thing?

Jakiin	Posted - 2009.11.06 22:10:00 - [61] Originally by: Kazzzi No, I'm not off topic, I'm just not saying what you want to hear. Jakiin > NRDS policy should be dictated by time spent rather than regions. Kazzzi > Why the hell should we spread out across all the regions? Jakiin > That's not what I said, you're off topic. Kazzzi > No I'm not. <Oversimplified take on argument>. Now go away. Jakiin > Nope. Still bored. And here we are. We understand that, within a war zone, an NBSI policy is a good idea. We also commend you on not being a bunch of psychopathic raiders in places where you have no need to be. But if you spend the majority of your time operating under an NBSI policy, it's a little hard for you to justify you have an NRDS policy. Now, if you had some home space away from the war zone (Hypothetical situation, not suggesting you go and do this, realize practical issues, etc. etc. etc.) and in that space you operated NRDS policy, then you could quite easily claim NRDS with NBSI exceptions. But your home space and the space you spend almost all of your time in you've declared NBSI. ex⋅cep⋅tion /ɪkˈsɛpʃən/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [ik-sep-shuhn] Show IPA ûnoun 1. the act of excepting or the fact of being excepted. 2. something excepted; an instance or case not conforming to the general rule. Now, definition one is quite loose. I could say that I'm a pacifist, except cases where I feel like being violent. But those are an exception. According to definition one, it would be correct, but according to common sense that 'exception' would be ridiculous. So let's go with definition two. Now, as a general rule, at any point in time any particular U'K member is probably going to be within the 'free fire zones'. So as a general rule, these pilots are operating under an NBSI policy. If we're looking at a time-based definition of policy, then the time spent outside of free fire zones could be seen as the actual exception. But that is, of course, silly. Because in reality, you aren't an NRDS or NBSI alliance. You're just an Alliance deeply embroiled in a war that doesn't want to rampage around when it's not suitable. Yet you continue to claim to be NRDS because of your actions a minority of the time, which is just as silly as me calling you an NBSI alliance. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jakiin Holder Heir of the Kingdom 'Pacifist Reclaimer'
Xious Caldari Phaze-9 Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.11.06 22:57:00 - [62] While I may not speak for my brothers I do have a voice and as such, I see that we are not NRDS everywhere for two simple reasons: Providence - NRDS space. We can not realistically run in Providence and be NRDS simply because the Providence holders are NRDS. When we enter a Providence system, those with no standing with us pose as much threat as those with negative standings do. Catch - We can be NRDS if we so wished. Doing so would cause the deaths of many. If you look at recent maps of Catch, our space is only accessible through a large number of -A- sovereignity systems. We do not, can not and would not dictate ROE to any of our allies and as such, any nuetrals comin in through our allies space are subject to their ROE, not ours. I am not argueing on the point, our point has been put across many times, just simply re-stating what has already been said. ---------------------------------
Kazzzi Amarr Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.11.06 23:20:00 - [63] Edited by: Kazzzi on 06/11/2009 23:20:37 Originally by: Jakiin But your home space and the space you spend almost all of your time in you've declared NBSI. Now, as a general rule, at any point in time any particular U'K member is probably going to be within the 'free fire zones'. So as a general rule, these pilots are operating under an NBSI policy. If we're looking at a time-based definition of policy, then the time spent outside of free fire zones could be seen as the actual exception. But that is, of course, silly. *Kazzzi looks at his map again, notes the 2 small dots labeled NBSI. Kazzzi then checks his corp roster to see where everyone is. Jakiin, you really don't know what you're talking about. We conduct business all over high and low security space and in several regions of nullsec. Plus I didn't know NRDS freespace ideals were based more on time of activity and less on area of coverage. Personally, I feel our NBSI stance is more in line with the fact that any neutrals in the areas of Catch and Provi are by default red since they are supporting the slaver regime by paying taxes and docking fees to slavers. Therefore by this logic we're not actually NBSI at all since the neutrals are technically red for their support of the slaver regime. This has been elaborated before several times.
Xennith Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.11.06 23:25:00 - [64] Originally by: Kazzzi This has been elaborated before several times. But hey, if they restate the same argument phrased slightly differently again, perhaps this thread will move on?
Stratio Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.11.06 23:40:00 - [65] Originally by: Jakiin Now, if you had some home space away from the war zone (Hypothetical situation, not suggesting you go and do this, realize practical issues, etc. etc. etc.) and in that space you operated NRDS policy, then you could quite easily claim NRDS with NBSI exceptions. We did, in Curse, for a long time. Also it is rather rich to claim that NRDS outside Provi/Catch is irrelevent when the OP is largely about asking why we broke our NRDS outside Provi/Catch. _____________________ For Tribe and Honour!
Jakiin	Posted - 2009.11.07 00:05:00 - [66] Edited by: Jakiin on 07/11/2009 00:10:46 Originally by: Kazzzi *Kazzzi looks at his map again, notes the 2 small dots labeled NBSI. Kazzzi then checks his corp roster to see where everyone is. Jakiin, you really don't know what you're talking about. We conduct business all over high and low security space and in several regions of nullsec. Plus I didn't know NRDS freespace ideals were based more on time of activity and less on area of coverage. Sorry, I was misled by statements such as these. Quote: We operate in Catch/Provi because the slavers live there. We are NBSI in Catch/Provi because the slavers live there. Quote: The two regions which are the exception, hmmm, I wonder why those would be the exception and I wonder why we would focus a bit of our time there? Maybe the reason has something to do with our sworn enemies living there? Unfortunately, I seem to lack a database of where U'K membership is, which while good for a guerrilla group, does mean that I'm largely going to have to go off what I hear. And from what I hear you're pretty dedicated to your goal, which lies within the free-fire zones. Quote: [1]Personally, I feel our NBSI stance is more in line with the fact that any neutrals in the areas of Catch and Provi are by default red since they are supporting the slaver regime by paying taxes and docking fees to slavers. [2]Therefore by this logic we're not actually NBSI at all since the neutrals are technically red for their support of the slaver regime. This has been elaborated before several times. [1] I'm not contesting this. Your current policy is intelligent, it is practical, and a pure NRDS policy would indeed be idiotic. I've stated this several times. [2] NRDS is where you assume any neutrals are either neutral or friendly until proven otherwise. NBSI is where you assume all neutrals are red until proven otherwise. You go on the logic that anyone who is neutral is almost certainly supporting the enemy, and thus red. This logic is not flawed until you then decide this means you're an NRDS alliance because of actions outside of your main theater of operations. Originally by: Xennith But hey, if they restate the same argument phrased slightly differently again, perhaps this thread will move on? I restate the argument when I feel no one actually understands the argument. So far the majority of arguments presented have been against seperate or distorted versions of the argument. Addressing those would be diverging from the original point. Originally by: Stratio Also it is rather rich to claim that NRDS outside Provi/Catch is irrelevent when the OP is largely about asking why we broke our NRDS outside Provi/Catch. The OP is an idiot. I might agree with him loosely on a couple points, but I'm not making the same, simple minded derivative and propaganda-fueled arguments he is. So in reality nothing he says or said is relevant to the current conversation. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jakiin Holder Heir of the Kingdom 'Pacifist Reclaimer'
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.11.07 00:10:00 - [67] Originally by: Kazzzi Jakiin, you really don't know what you're talking about. We conduct business all over high and low security space and in several regions of nullsec. Plus I didn't know NRDS freespace ideals were based more on time of activity and less on area of coverage. Traitor Kazzzi: NRDS as opposed to NBSI in high-sec? How benevolent! I'd love to see an alliance who uses an NBSI policy in high security space. If your ideals don't start at home, they are not ideals. Ideals are not overruled by matters of practicality. What are your ideals worth if they can and will be overruled by practicality on a regular basis even in your own home? Ideals are the things you cling to even when its not practical. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Xennith Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.11.07 00:10:00 - [68] Originally by: Jakiin The OP is an idiot. Consensus is reached. We understand your argument, its been rebutted serveral times. Im getting tired of arguing with you to be honest. Our RoE is NRDS with exceptions, if you dont like it then you can accept that we arent trying to please you, or you can ***** about it on IGS. Your choice really. Incidently, what alliance do you represent?
Kazzzi Amarr Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.11.07 00:42:00 - [69] Guys let's be patient with Jakiin here. He is after all just a freshman Hedion University student. Originally by: Jakiin Unfortunately, I seem to lack a database of where U'K membership is, which while good for a guerrilla group, does mean that I'm largely going to have to go off what I hear. And from what I hear you're pretty dedicated to your goal, which lies within the free-fire zones. Exactly. You don't have enough information in the first place to make your claims. There is no scale to measure how NBSIy/NRDSy somebody is. You don't have a database and you don't know any specifics of how much time we spend conducting what you consider NBSI against the "neutrals" who I consider red. We can call it NBSI if you want, it doesn't really matter. For the sake of a simple explanation we openly admit that we conduct NBSI in Catch and Provi, but the meaning of our ROE is a bit more in depth which you cannot argue, and is one reason why I feel we aren't anywhere near being a true NBSI alliance. Final point. In my opinion our ROE isn't really an ideal for our enemies to debate and approve of. It is a diplomatic policy of engagement for US to follow. I feel that we make it known public simply as a courtesy.
Jakiin	Posted - 2009.11.07 00:53:00 - [70] Originally by: Kazzzi Guys let's be patient with Jakiin here. He is after all just a freshman Hedion University student. Quote: CONCORD technical issue, I've never spent a day in Hedion, I was taught in a Kingdom planet side university and received my pod training etc. with a Kingdom program. I appreciate the condescension, though, makes you look mature and knowledgeable. Quote: Exactly. [1]You don't have enough information in the first place to make your claims. [2]There is no scale to measure how NBSIy/NRDSy somebody is. [3]You don't have a database and you don't know any specifics of how much time we spend conducting what you consider NBSI against the "neutrals" who I consider red. [4]We can call it NBSI if you want, it doesn't really matter. [5]For the sake of a simple explanation we openly admit that we conduct NBSI in Catch and Provi, but the meaning of our ROE is a bit more in depth which you cannot argue, and is one reason why I feel we aren't anywhere near being a true NBSI alliance. [1] I don't have enough information to make definitive statements, but I can argue the appearance of your policy. [2] The majority of your arguments have been on the presumption that policy is dictated by the number of regions one practices it in, so you used that as a scale. Is this an attempt at concession? [3] See point 1. [4] I don't want you to, I simply would appreciate if you'd stop claiming to be NRDS. Two different things, as there is such a thing as a middle ground. [5] Agreed. Again. I'm not arguing this, so please stop saying it. Quote: Final point. In my opinion our ROE isn't really an ideal for our enemies to debate and approve of. It is a diplomatic policy of engagement for US to follow. I feel that we make it known public simply as a courtesy. We're not debating your ROE. You can have whatever ROE you want, we're not going to tell you how to run your show. At least, not those of us with common sense. We're debating whether or not your ROE make you NBSI or NRDS. Be careful not to confuse the two. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jakiin Holder Heir of the Kingdom 'Pacifist Reclaimer'

Jakiin	Posted - 2009.11.07 00:59:00 - [71] Originally by: Xennith Originally by: Jakiin The OP is an idiot. Consensus is reached. We understand your argument, its been rebutted serveral times. If you think the argument has actually been addressed, nevermind rebutted, then you clearly misunderstand the argument. Perhaps I'm simply making an argument similar to one that has already been refuted, which has led to some confusion. Quote: Im getting tired of arguing with you to be honest. Our RoE is NRDS with exceptions, if you dont like it then you can accept that we arent trying to please you, or you can *** about it on IGS. Your choice really. Guess which one I choose? Quote:** Incidently, what alliance do you represent? I do not, at the current time, represent any faction. Whether that makes me uneducated and naive or unbrainwashed and independent is for the individual to decide. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jakiin Holder Heir of the Kingdom 'Pacifist Reclaimer'
Kazzzi Amarr Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.11.07 01:16:00 - [72] Originally by: Jakiin Originally by: Kazzzi Guys let's be patient with Jakiin here. He is after all just a freshman Hedion University student. CONCORD technical issue, I've never spent a day in Hedion, I was taught in a Kingdom planet side university and received my pod training etc. with a Kingdom program. I appreciate the condescension, though, makes you look mature and knowledgeable. Wasn't being condescending, I was defending you. Sometimes neocoms have a hard time expressing context. Originally by: Jakiin I simply would appreciate if you'd stop claiming to be NRDS. We're not debating your ROE. You can have whatever ROE you want, we're not going to tell you how to run your show. At least, not those of us with common sense. We're debating whether or not your ROE make you NBSI or NRDS. Be careful not to confuse the two. Ok, so you don't want us to believe our own ROE which states that we are NRDS with the exception of designated free-fire zones?
Conlin Gallente Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.11.07 02:44:00 - [73] Originally by: Jakiin Originally by: Xennith Originally by: Jakiin The OP is an idiot. Consensus is reached. We understand your argument, its been rebutted serveral times. If you think the argument has actually been addressed, nevermind rebutted, then you clearly misunderstand the argument. Perhaps I'm simply making an argument similar to one that has already been refuted, which has led to some confusion. Quote: Im getting tired of arguing with you to be honest. Our RoE is NRDS with exceptions, if you dont like it then you can accept that we arent trying to please you, or you can *** about it on IGS. Your choice really. Guess which one I choose? Quote:** Incidently, what alliance do you represent? I do not, at the current time, represent any faction. Whether that makes me uneducated and naive or unbrainwashed and independent is for the individual to decide. From the responses you've been given by U'K & nuetral parties regarding our RoE that has existed for over 2 years after Unity , and your incessant need to argue over nothing . You come across as desperate to try and prove an issue that doesnt exist . In fact it seems you are so desperate to try you might be as unbiased as you make out to be .
Cheiftan Minmatar Shinryaku Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive	Posted - 2009.11.07 04:44:00 - [74] Wow IÆm impressed how this has dragged on so long... While the Shinryaku and UNITY donÆt see eye to eye, we generally shoot at each other I will stand at their defence here. Even back when we where at war which must be about six months ago they explained their policyÆs to me as they have here, and its pretty simple guys. UshraÆkhan are a NRDS alliance and if im not mistaken a follower of free space this means that unless you are red you will not be shot at anywhere in new Eden, low sec, high sec or null sec however this dose have its exception. As stated before Catch and Providence are a war zone for UNITY and is there for the front line of the war so under the policies it comes under the Burn providence policy, this means that in catch and providence if you are not blue you will be assumed to be aiding the Empire and therefore be KOS despite whether you are red or neutral. Freedom will come through respect not the barrel of a gun
Jakiin	Posted - 2009.11.07 06:24:00 - [75] Originally by: Kazzzi Wasn't being condescending, I was defending you. Sometimes neocoms have a hard time expressing context. I do not wish to be defended, particularly not in such a fashion. Quote: Ok, so you don't want us to believe our own ROE which states that we are NRDS with the exception of designated free-fire zones? The ROE may be 'NRDS except within', however that does not make you an NRDS Alliance depending on how often you frequent these areas, how much of your space is within these areas, and various other factors. So if your ROE are telling you that you're an NRDS Alliance (IE: "Ushra'Khan is an NRDS Alliance, and as such..."), and your ROE cause you to be NBSI in the regions we've been discussing, then I'm going to disagree with your ROE on that. If, however, your ROE simply tells you to act out a NRDS policy in the regions outside of Catch and Providence, without specifically saying that your alliance is NRDS, then we are as always before simply arguing semantics. Originally by: Conlin From the responses you've been given by U'K & nuetral parties regarding our RoE that has existed for over 2 years after Unity , and your incessant need to argue over nothing. You come across as desperate to try and prove an issue that doesnt exist. Takes two to tango. Those who argue with me are also displaying an incessant need to argue over nothing, the difference being that as this is their policy and I don't even cross missiles with U'K there's no practical purpose in convincing me they're an NRDS alliance. Quote: In fact it seems you are so desperate to try you might be as unbiased as you make out to be . I'm guessing there's a 'not' somewhere in there. I'm not surprised you don't think I'm unbiased, largely due to the little footnote at the bottom of all my posts telling the cluster that I am heir to some holdings within the Kingdom. Additionally, I think you're confusing desperation with boredom. Unlike most, I enjoy debating. It's interesting, gives me new perspective on people's views and their psychology, and I can almost always find someone to argue with, even over completely pointless and inane topics such as whether an alliance's policy makes them NBSI or NRDS. I mean, what if I won this argument, by some stretch of the imagination. What would I get? The ROE would be the same, no U'K objectives would change, the only difference would be that they'd refer to themselves as having 'A wartime policy'. If I was astoundingly lucky and this silly little debate affected U'K leadership at all. And everyone knows that you never win an argument on the IGS, you just keep talking until both parties get tired and go home. I do this because it's interesting, and because I'm bored. I'm still bored, your people are still willing to argue, so I'm still having fun. Oh, also: You're wrong, and I'm right. Garr! <Additional taunting>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jakiin Holder Heir of the Kingdom 'Pacifist Reclaimer'
Conlin Gallente Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.11.07 07:20:00 - [76] I,m sorry , but I,m not even arguing , I,m simply making a point about something that has existed for longer than 2 years that has clearly been stated time & again . Its not even worth a debate . Our RoE has never changed over that time , even during our period in Curse . Everybody seems to understand it , except you . If you wish to hold a debate I strongly suggest you find something with a bit more meat to it . I tried to make it simple for you , and this is my final word on the subject . Give it up mate honestly , you are sounding desperate now .
Kazzzi Amarr Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.11.07 07:36:00 - [77] Originally by: Jakiin Originally by: Kazzzi Wasn't being condescending, I was defending you. Sometimes neocoms have a hard time expressing context. I do not wish to be defended, particularly not in such a fashion. Too bad. Originally by: Jakiin I don't even cross missiles with U'K You don't cross missiles with anyone it seems. You have the ability to fly a capsuleer vessel yet feel no responsibility to serve. Many in your kingdom call this cowardice. Originally by: Jakiin Post of impotent desperation because I can't win an unwinnable argument It's a shame, I'm sure your professors of the correspondence courses you take from Hedion University were hoping you were actually trying to discern some actual truth. I'm sure you wont mind their disappointment and failing grade they give you now since you obviously have no intention of graduating. At any rate, thank you for clarifying that you should not be taken seriously. You will now be ignored. Fly Free
Jakiin	Posted - 2009.11.07 07:57:00 - [78] sigh Ah well. Another player will show themselves soon, perhaps one that doesn't feel the need to be so sore when they decide to stop playing. Well, that's not likely. But one can dream. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jakiin Holder Heir of the Kingdom 'Pacifist Reclaimer'
Kazzzi Amarr Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.11.07 07:59:00 - [79] Originally by: Merdaneth Traitor Kazzzi: NRDS as opposed to NBSI in high-sec? How benevolent! I'd love to see an alliance who uses an NBSI policy in high security space. I take it you haven't been to Niarja in awhile.
Stratio Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.11.07 08:15:00 - [80] Originally by: Cheiftan ... this means that in catch and providence if you are not blue you will be assumed to be aiding the Empire and therefore be KOS despite whether you are red or neutral. Correct. In theory we could simply set any random neutral we encounter in Catch/Provi to KOS, much like CVA set any pirates they encounter to KOS. That would be far worse for such an ex-neutral, though, as they would also subsequently be a target outside that area. As it is, many neutrals who are attacked in Catch/Provi and then leave the area remain neutral to us. If we subsequently encounter them in the Curse region, for example, we would not attack them. _____________________ For Tribe and Honour!

Mattduk Gallente Universal Army Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.11.07 12:07:00 - [81] Edited by: Mattduk on 07/11/2009 12:11:12 Jakiin keeps coming back to the same point. That we are 'claiming' to be an 'NRDS alliance'. We're not. We're claiming to be NRDS everywhere except Catch and Providence. ROE doesn't define a corporation or alliance. That's it. It's really ****ing simple actually. Even non-capsuleers could understand it, I'm sure. We must all hang together or most assuredly we shall hang separately.
BHaddow Minmatar Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.11.07 15:52:00 - [82] Jakiin it is a pretty simple concept that you dont seam to grasp. 1. We are a NRDS Alliance. 2. The only exceptions to us being NRDS are in the regions where we are at war and actively fighting against slavery, in those regions (Catch and Providence) we follow a NBSI policy since neutrals can safely be presumed to either support or partake in slavery. Pilots, Corporations and Alliances in the area who renounce slavery, actively fight against slavery and don't feed slavers wallets through docking in their stations, ratting in their systems etc can open discussions with our diplomatic officers to arrange blue standings, which means we wont engage them. 3. We live in a War Zone, you and no one else can expect us to operate NRDS in the systems we base in due to this. When we lived in Curse we did operate NRDS with great success. There for while Catch is still classified as a war zone any pilots currently neutral to us that expect to not be shot in the area we live need to contact our diplomats to arrange standings. 4. If you are seriously trying to argue us operating NBSI in our active war zones makes us a NBSI alliance, not a NRDS alliance. Then you are in fact arguing that CVA and their Slave Alliances are also NBSI alliances. They run cleansings of low sec areas destroying all assets that belong to corporations and alliances that are Neutral AND Red to them. The only difference is CVA see their home space as an area needing better policed against "terrorists" rather than a war zone.
Forty Three Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.11.07 20:21:00 - [83] well, to be perfectly Honest, what Jakiin is saying is pretty much in accordance with what Xennith and the rest of my alliance mates are arguing. He is, unlike most in Galnet, looking at the facts he has and making a genuine attempt at understanding, rather than a) letting others think for him b) trying to sway opinions to further his own agenda I think discussing semantics is pointless, and for what it's worth, I think Jakiin is correct in his analysis. I don't care for labels. We operate the way we do. If the slavers want to put labels on us, let them; it wouldn't be the first time. 43 ----------------------------------------------- UNITY!!!
Jakiin	Posted - 2009.11.07 20:27:00 - [84] Originally by: Mattduk Jakiin keeps coming back to the same point. That we are 'claiming' to be an 'NRDS alliance'. We're not. See, if someone would just say this, the argument can end without people getting personal. Take notes. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jakiin Holder Heir of the Kingdom 'Pacifist Reclaimer'
Tirke Amarr Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.11.08 00:21:00 - [85] Originally by: Jakiin Takes two to tango. Those who argue with me are also displaying an incessant need to argue over nothing, the difference being that as this is their policy and I don't even cross missiles with U'K there's no practical purpose in convincing me they're an NRDS alliance. I'm guessing there's a 'not' somewhere in there. I'm not surprised you don't think I'm unbiased, largely due to the little footnote at the bottom of all my posts telling the cluster that I am heir to some holdings within the Kingdom. Additionally, I think you're confusing desperation with boredom. Unlike most, I enjoy debating. It's interesting, gives me new perspective on people's views and their psychology, and I can almost always find someone to argue with, even over completely pointless and inane topics such as whether an alliance's policy makes them NBSI or NRDS. I mean, what if I won this argument, by some stretch of the imagination. What would I get? The ROE would be the same, no I do this because it's interesting, and because I'm bored. I'm still bored, your people are still willing to argue, so I'm still having fun. Excerpts from your quotes above. It appears that you are of no interest to any faction and spend most of your time polishing an Impairor in a station some where safe within empire. You have initiated this topic only to slander and sling mud at an alliance that is trying to make a difference. I will not expend further energy for your entertainment and I would ask others to do the same. The facts are abundantly apparent to anyone who has read the first few statements of this unnecessarily lengthy discussion. Repetition of the same arguments benefit none but the OP who apparently has plenty of time to 'debate' such things and revel in the fact that he is dignified with a response from members of an alliance with more to do than sit in our bridge chairs and pretend to be an agent of truth.I hope you have had your fun and I hope to "cross missiles" with you soon, that your mettle be tested in the arena of combat and not by the forked-ness of your tongue and the stalwart manner in which you defend an indefensible slander.
Mattduk Gallente Universal Army Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.11.08 00:40:00 - [86] Originally by: Jakiin Originally by: Mattduk Jakiin keeps coming back to the same point. That we are 'claiming' to be an 'NRDS alliance'. We're not. See, if someone would just say this, the argument can end without people getting personal. Take notes. You quoted me out of context. I actually said: "Jakiin keeps coming back to the same point. That we are 'claiming' to be an 'NRDS alliance'. We're not. We're claiming to be NRDS everywhere except Catch and Providence. ROE doesn't define a corporation or alliance. That's it. It's really ****ing simple actually. Even non-capsuleers could understand it, I'm sure." We must all hang together or most assuredly we shall hang separately.
Jakiin	Posted - 2009.11.08 01:21:00 - [87] Edited by: Jakiin on 08/11/2009 01:21:37 Originally by: Tirke Excerpts from your quotes above. It appears that you are of no interest to any faction and spend most of your time polishing an Impairor in a station some where safe within empire. You have initiated this topic only to slander and sling mud at an alliance that is trying to make a difference. I will not expend further energy for your entertainment and I would ask others to do the same. I didn't actually initiate this topic, I simply joined when I decided it would be fun to debate semantics. And I don't believe I was ever slinging mud or slandering, I was, as always, simply debating semantics. The difference is that I never accused anyone of being a coward, stupid, failure, etc. All of which, by the way, are things I have been called by select members of U'K during this debate. So if anyone's mudslinging... Quote: The facts are abundantly apparent to anyone who has read the first few statements of this unnecessarily lengthy discussion. Repetition of the same arguments benefit none but the OP who apparently has plenty of time to 'debate' such things and revel in the fact that he is dignified with a response from members of an alliance with more to do than sit in our bridge chairs and pretend to be an agent of truth.I hope you have had your fun and I hope to "cross missiles" with you soon, that your mettle be tested in the arena of combat and not by the forked-ness of your tongue and the stalwart manner in which you defend an indefensible slander. More slander and mudslinging. Surprise. I should compliment you, though: You could teach many preachers a lesson in righteousness, as that seems to be fueling this response. Originally by: Mattduk You quoted me out of context. I actually said: "Jakiin keeps coming back to the same point. That we are 'claiming' to be an 'NRDS alliance'. We're not. We're claiming to be NRDS everywhere except Catch and Providence. ROE doesn't define a corporation or alliance. That's it. It's really ****ing simple actually. Even non-capsuleers could understand it, I'm sure." I just cut it down to the essential (I was arguing against claims of U'K being an NRDS Alliance, if U'K did not make those claims then we were in agreement. Your points as to ROE and alliance policy were actually in agreement with something I said earlier, so there was no need for them) and the "Obviously you were dropped on your head as a child" inference was cut to make you look a little more dignified. My respect to those members of U'K who managed to stay calm and not leave with a superiority act based upon name calling. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jakiin Holder Heir of the Kingdom 'Pacifist Reclaimer'
Sapphrine Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.11.08 03:17:00 - [88] Can all u'k pilots leave this thread to die now. I think repeating our roe any more isn't going to make a difference no matter how you phrase it. Pilots out there will make of it what they will. That even some of our enemy are agreeing that we're consistent and clear in them is pretty telling I think.
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.11.08 18:08:00 - [89] Originally by: Forty Three I don't care for labels. We operate the way we do. If the slavers want to put labels on us, let them; it wouldn't be the first time. I think that a label marked "For Sale - 10 ISK" would be appropriate for you. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.


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