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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
Letifer Deus
Total Mayhem. Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2009.11.08 17:01:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Letifer Deus on 08/11/2009 17:04:57 Ok maybe it's more 10th hour, but whatever.
The Vindicator is crap. Swapping mwd cap bonus for web bonus was nice, as was the fittings boost, and I can't complain about an 8th turret. HOWEVER, the fact remains that with no rep bonus and only 7 mids, it will fail to perform appreciably better than the navy mega at anything but webbing. With no rep bonus there is no way to put up a worthwhile active tank. So you are left with buffer tanking with 7 lows compared to navy mega's 8. Thus, either you're running 1 less plate than a navy mega and having significantly less EHP or you're running 1 less mag stab and you end up with less dps (and no utility high on vindi, let's not forget). Not exactly worth paying 2x as much as a navy mega for. This is fail.
Please, please, please drop the tracking bonus for an armor rep bonus. Then we will have what amounts to a hyp on steroids with 5 heavy drones, a 7th low and a web bonus, instead of having something directly competing with (and not necessarily better than) the navy mega. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!" |
Rudolf Miller
Dawn of a new Empire The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.11.08 18:14:00 -
[2]
Perhaps the 8th turret and ability to produce overwhelming DPS means that it shouldn't be so good at tanking?
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Letifer Deus
Total Mayhem. Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2009.11.08 18:18:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Letifer Deus on 08/11/2009 18:25:41
Originally by: Rudolf Miller Perhaps the 8th turret and ability to produce overwhelming DPS means that it shouldn't be so good at tanking?
It produces a whopping ~60 dps more than a hyperion or mega with siege launcher in 8th high. Remember, we're talking about a 1+ bill ISK ship here. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!" |
Letifer Deus
Total Mayhem. Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2009.11.10 00:32:00 -
[4]
c'mon, let's not let the remaining sexy black mega end up doomed to mediocrity. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!" |
Reatu Krentor
Minmatar Void Spiders Fate Weavers
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Posted - 2009.11.10 00:39:00 -
[5]
When you buy a faction ship you aren't paying for a "better" ship, you are paying for the prestige of flying under the banner of the serpentis(in the case of the vindicator). -- stuff -- |
Don Pellegrino
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Posted - 2009.11.10 00:42:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Reatu Krentor When you buy a faction ship you aren't paying for a "better" ship, you are paying for the prestige of flying under the banner of the serpentis(in the case of the vindicator).
What you said is exactly what CCP wants to avoid and the reason why they're fixing most of the faction ships.
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Reatu Krentor
Minmatar Void Spiders Fate Weavers
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Posted - 2009.11.10 00:58:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Reatu Krentor on 10/11/2009 01:00:21 if faction ship performance would be balanced relative to price, a vindicator would have to outtank and outdps a carrier.
Using price as an argument for a boost is silly. Market price isn't dictated by CCP, players do.
(edit:) price balance between faction ships is a problem, far too easy to supply navy ships relative to pirate ships. The navy ship BPC offers in lp stores should go. -- stuff -- |
Letifer Deus
Total Mayhem. Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2009.11.10 02:44:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Letifer Deus on 10/11/2009 02:46:36
Originally by: Reatu Krentor
if faction ship performance would be balanced relative to price, a vindicator would have to outtank and outdps a carrier.
When did anyone say ISK for ISK anything had to be as good as anything? If you're going to have a 1+ bill isk BS it doesn't need to be 10 times better than a 100 mil bs, but it better be a helluva lot better. And more importantly (in my opinion) it better be significantly better in some areas compared to similar competition (i.e., navy mega). As is the Vindi is NOT going to come close to being that as its slot config is not optimal for buffer tank (like the navy mega's) and it doesn't have the bonuses to be an effective active tanker.
P.S. Vindicator will outdps a carrier. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!" |
Kulmid
Ore Dragoons Inc
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Posted - 2009.11.10 03:05:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Letifer Deus Edited by: Letifer Deus on 10/11/2009 02:48:03
Originally by: Reatu Krentor
if faction ship performance would be balanced relative to price, a vindicator would have to outtank and outdps a carrier.
When did anyone say ISK for ISK anything had to be as good as anything? If you're going to have a 1+ bill isk BS it is silly to expect it to be 10 times better than a 100 mil bs, but it better be a helluva lot better. And more importantly it better be significantly better in some key areas compared to similar competition (i.e., navy mega). As is the Vindi is NOT going to come close to being that as its slot config is not optimal for buffer tank (like the navy mega's) and it doesn't have the bonuses to be an effective active tanker.
P.S. Vindicator will outdps a carrier.
I think what you are overlooking about CCP not setting the prices is, in its current state, there ARE pilots who think the ship is worth 1bil. Whether it be for prestige or effectiveness, if the ship gets a boost, it will cost 1.5bil, then you'll be complaining that its still not effective enough for its cost. The ship's cost is based on what the other players are willing to pay. Boost the ship, its gonna cost even more. _________________
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2009.11.10 03:15:00 -
[10]
this video gave me the impression the current vindicator already is rocking. and i cant see how it can get worse with the proposed changes from CCP.
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Viper ShizzIe
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.11.10 03:55:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Letifer Deus Edited by: Letifer Deus on 08/11/2009 18:25:41
Originally by: Rudolf Miller Perhaps the 8th turret and ability to produce overwhelming DPS means that it shouldn't be so good at tanking?
It produces a whopping ~60 dps more than a hyperion or mega with siege launcher in 8th high. Remember, we're talking about a 1+ bill ISK ship here.
Hey let's made ridiculous comparisons and try to get game changes based on them.
God damn you're too ****ing stupid to be in Cry Havoc.
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Letifer Deus
Total Mayhem. Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2009.11.10 04:26:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Letifer Deus on 10/11/2009 04:35:02
Originally by: Viper ****zIe
Hey let's made ridiculous comparisons and try to get game changes based on them.
Comparing hyp to a vindi is super rediculous, I agree. And no, I wouldn't put a siege launcher on a mega (because there's better things) but the fact remains. And I never tried to get changes based on DPS, simply pointing out that vindi DPS isn't "overwhelming" because it gained an 8th turret. And if you have an actual argument to make, go for it.
Quote: I think what you are overlooking about CCP not setting the prices is, in its current state, there ARE pilots who think the ship is worth 1bil...The ship's cost is based on what the other players are willing to pay. Boost the ship, its gonna cost even more.
To a point. But price is determined by supply as well as demand and if it isn't worth the LP, noone gets them thus meaning there is a "floor" they really wont go below. And let's remember, the nightmare was the one and only truly "good" pirate bs up to this point and prices hovered between 1b and 1.2b. Of course, I'd pay 1.5b as opposed to 1b if it meant it was worth taking out of a station for more than parades and e-peen brandishing, anyways. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!" |
Letifer Deus
Total Mayhem. Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2009.11.10 21:38:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Letifer Deus
Originally by: Viper ****zIe
Hey let's made ridiculous comparisons and try to get game changes based on them.
I'm assuming you're referring to the mega + siege part. No, I wouldn't put a siege launcher on a mega/navy mega 95% of the time (obviously rr is much more important than ~65 dps) but the fact remains that if you're comparing potential dps numbers, that's the math. TBH, I should have just said hyperion and left it at that. I was simply pointing out that vindi DPS is not "overwhelming" because it gained an 8th turret. Certainly not enough to justify a weaker tank. And my actual argument centered around tanking -specifically buffer tanking performance versus navy mega- and slot layouts, not lack of a huge dps advantage.
Was anything in my orig. post/argument "ridiculous"? Do you believe the vindi in its currently proposed form to be a worthwhile choice over the navy mega for anything but epeen and (much) better paintjob? It's more agile and 10% faster, but let's be honest, 10% on a BS doesn't do much for you. It has a web bonus, but web bonus alone isn't going to make the ship worthwhile and it will have 50m3 less dronebay. Do you not believe the vindi would be more worthwhile as an active tanker? Do you not think 8/5/7 is more conducive to active tanking while 8/4/8 is more conductive to buffer tanking? Would you not agree that the vindi would be much better (pvp-wise) as an active tanker relative to the kronos than as a buffer tanker relative to the navy mega? If not, why not? I personally believe the navy mega gets it just right for buffer tank blaster BS, while the vindi could serve as an amazing active tanker.
Quote: I think what you are overlooking about CCP not setting the prices is, in its current state, there ARE pilots who think the ship is worth 1bil...The ship's cost is based on what the other players are willing to pay. Boost the ship, its gonna cost even more.
To a point. But price is determined by supply as well as demand and if it isn't worth the LP, none of the mission grinders will get them, thus there is a "floor" they really wont go below price wise. And let's remember, the nightmare was the one and only truly "good" pirate bs up to this point and prices hovered between 900m and 1.2b. Of course, I'd pay 1.5b as opposed to 1b if it meant it was worth taking out of a station for more than parades and e-peen brandishing, anyways.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!" |
darius mclever
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Posted - 2009.11.10 22:25:00 -
[14]
the 5th mid slot is another cap booster. which is nice for a cap hungry blaster boat with dual rep. no?
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Letifer Deus
Total Mayhem. Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2009.11.11 01:19:00 -
[15]
Originally by: darius mclever the 5th mid slot is another cap booster. which is nice for a cap hungry blaster boat with dual rep. no?
Yes, it is perfect for it and that's why a rep bonus makes perfect sense. Unfortunately, unbonused active armor tank is fairly lackluster. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!" |
darius mclever
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Posted - 2009.11.11 03:27:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Letifer Deus
Originally by: darius mclever the 5th mid slot is another cap booster. which is nice for a cap hungry blaster boat with dual rep. no?
Yes, it is perfect for it and that's why a rep bonus makes perfect sense. Unfortunately, unbonused active armor tank is fairly lackluster.
that's why I linked the video twice. ok its a pimp fit vindicator but it really rocks. tanks even multiple battleships.
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Spc One
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.11.11 04:07:00 -
[17]
Hmm. Vindicator with 8 turrets would be almost equivalent to Megathron Federate Issue.
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Letifer Deus
Total Mayhem. Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2009.11.11 05:45:00 -
[18]
Originally by: darius mclever
that's why I linked the video twice. ok its a pimp fit vindicator but it really rocks. tanks even multiple battleships.
A pimp fit tank will do that bonused or not. However, w/o a rep bonus a hyperion will still outtank it running equal level tanks +1 mag stab (so 2 res mods on hyp, 3 on vindi). ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!" |
Good Sir
Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS
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Posted - 2009.11.11 06:04:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Spc One Hmm. Vindicator with 8 turrets would be almost equivalent to Megathron Federate Issue.
What he said. The 8th turret is quite substantial and frankly the whole siege launcher argument is not really a valid argument cause the vast majority of gallente people wont have it trained, like me for example. Because training torpedoes and all the support skills that go along with it to fit a single siege launcher to a navy thron is a tad... ridiculous. The vindi with 7 lows and an 8th turret is going to rock. if you give it a tanking bonus/8th low, you will definitely have to give the navy mega an 8th turret other wise the navy mega will be rather pale in comparison.
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Qui Shon
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Posted - 2009.11.11 07:35:00 -
[20]
I can hardly believe all the Vindi whinage. Mega with not just another turret, but another mid as well, quite generous fitting, highest supcapital dps in the game, almost a state mega......and people *still* complain?
Personally I'd have enjoyed an 8/6/6 layout , if nothing else for all the head scratching over how to actually fit it, and the resulting fine whine threads.
Bottom line is this ship will not depreciate in value come dominion, but quite likely settle a bit higher then the previous year.
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Letifer Deus
Total Mayhem. Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2009.11.11 07:48:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Letifer Deus on 11/11/2009 07:51:14
Originally by: Good Sir
What he said. The 8th turret is quite substantial and frankly the whole siege launcher argument is not really a valid argument cause the vast majority of gallente people wont have it trained, like me for example. Because training torpedoes and all the support skills that go along with it to fit a single siege launcher to a navy thron is a tad... ridiculous.
I didn't say you should, but you can. People DO crosstrain in this game. But anyways, it was a bad example, forget I even said it. =)
Quote: The vindi with 7 lows and an 8th turret is going to rock. if you give it a tanking bonus/8th low, you will definitely have to give the navy mega an 8th turret other wise the navy mega will be rather pale in comparison.
Navy mega would still be the king of buffer tank blaster boats via 8 low slots. As great as a pimped active tank vindi with rep bonus would be, there are many situations where it simply isn't suitable (and where having no utility high for RR would also be unsuitable). Also, as triple mag stab vindi is a fairly risky idea (dcu/2xplates/eanm is quite a low buffer, relatively speaking), you can still compete dps wise with 3 mag stabs on navy mega. And 8th low was never part of my argument, nor do I really endorse the idea (for variety sake, and all that).
Originally by: Qui Shon
Bottom line is this ship will not depreciate in value come dominion, but quite likely settle a bit higher then the previous year.
Of course it won't depreciate. Make no mistake, I'm not arguing that it isn't definitely better, but it isn't where it should be. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!" |
Lylu
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Posted - 2009.11.11 09:28:00 -
[22]
signed, vindi is still not good, just if u completely pimp it is nice, thats why the vid is nice, would have worked with any pimped ship...
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Siigari Kitawa
Gallente The Aduro Protocol
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Posted - 2009.11.11 10:51:00 -
[23]
I would appreciate a 50% bonus to damage, please.
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Beardponderer
You're Doing It Wrong
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Posted - 2009.11.11 12:18:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Beardponderer on 11/11/2009 12:19:25 You're wrong about the rep bonus as gallente already have the hyperion and kronos to fill that role.
What the vindicator needs, as siig said, is something more similar to it's cruiser and frigate counterpart and not the navy mega.
50% damage bonus please
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Hedliner
Gallente Total Mayhem. Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2009.11.11 12:49:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Letifer Deus Edited by: Letifer Deus on 10/11/2009 21:19:52 This is fail.
Just about sums this post up,
Regards, your loving ceo. |
Letifer Deus
Total Mayhem. Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2009.11.11 18:17:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Letifer Deus on 11/11/2009 18:20:46
Originally by: Beardponderer
You're wrong about the rep bonus as gallente already have the hyperion and kronos to fill that role.
And they already have the mega and navy mega for buffer tankers. The kronos is certainly good, but it isn't optimal for pvp.
Quote: What the vindicator needs, as siig said, is something more similar to it's cruiser and frigate counterpart and not the navy mega.
50% damage bonus please
If you can convince ccp to make an 8 turret, 5 heavy and 50% damage bonus blaster bs, be my guest. =)
Originally by: Hedliner
Just about sums this post up,
Regards, your loving ceo.
Thanks sweetie! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!" |
Spc One
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.11.12 14:49:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Spc One on 12/11/2009 14:50:28
Originally by: darius mclever this video gave me the impression the current vindicator already is rocking. and i cant see how it can get worse with the proposed changes from CCP.
Awesome video.
Well he's using: Gist X-TYPE 100MN MWD Corpus A-TYPE Large Armor Repairer x2
Meta 14 MWD would accualy give you 25% bonus to your cap so it's like a large battery that gives you another 25% on vindicator (this bonus is now gone with the dominions). Plus an meta 13 tank.
No wonder he survives it all.
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CCP WeirdFish
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Posted - 2009.11.12 15:42:00 -
[28]
Please see CCP Ytterbium's Dev Blog on the matter
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Letifer Deus
Total Mayhem. Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2009.11.12 16:44:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Letifer Deus on 12/11/2009 16:56:55
Originally by: CCP WeirdFish Please see CCP Ytterbium's Dev Blog on the matter
Yes, I have seen that blog. Thanks for posting it. =)
Quote: An armor repairing bonus may bring the Vindicator too close of a Hyperion, and force modules to be used when we again want to leave a bit of setup flexibility in its fittings.
Except that pretty much everything used as argument there for why it isn't "another" kronos (speed, agility, drones, slot layout and to a lesser extent sensor strength) can be used for why it wouldn't be "another" hyperion if it had a rep bonus. Except that while the kronos shares the critical web bonus of the vindi, the hyp doesn't. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!" |
Pattern Clarc
Blue Republic
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Posted - 2009.11.12 16:50:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 12/11/2009 16:55:25
Originally by: CCP WeirdFish Please see CCP Ytterbium's Dev Blog on the matter
So any issues to do with the new ships are moot as they are are done and dusted with player testing and feedback irrelevant at this point hereforth?
Alright, got it. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest) |
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