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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
HeliosGal
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.11.21 14:18:00 -
[61]
and yet ccp has chosen something else thats balanced Signature - CCP what this game needs is more variance in PVE aspects and a little bit less PVP focus, more content more varied level 1-4 missions more than just 10 per faction high sec low sec and 00 |
Letifer Deus
Total Mayhem. Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2009.11.22 01:05:00 -
[62]
Edited by: Letifer Deus on 22/11/2009 01:16:38 I've actually decided I like increased damage bonus better than the active rep bonus. It is really the only thing that gives it a clear role away from the kronos/hyp/mega. Nightmare is a shield tank laser boat, bhaal is a BS class neuting/nossing machine, mach is redic. fast/agile. All of these are very different from their vanilla/navy racial counterparts, vindi should be too. While massive DPS might not be exactly as unique as the others, it is certainly more so than what it is now or what it would be with an active tank bonus. However, I still think the bonus would need to be 50% to give it a clear dps advantage over navy mega with equal number of tanking mods as with 37.5% bonus the dps advantage is only ~2% with 1 mag stab vindi versus 2 mag stab navymega and ~6.5% with 2/3 mag stab. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!" |
HeliosGal
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.11.22 13:51:00 -
[63]
i still think a restricted 5th mid slot or some form of other mid slot bonus perhaps a 5% tp bonus Signature - CCP what this game needs is more variance in PVE aspects and a little bit less PVP focus, more content more varied level 1-4 missions more than just 10 per faction high sec low sec and 00 |
Lylu
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Posted - 2009.11.22 16:25:00 -
[64]
as the vindi has 8 turrent slots i think 37.5% is ok, but u cant fit neuts with an active tank, so yes its a bit lower dmg, but it is nice already.
to make it unique remove the drones and give it a higher bonus to dmg, would really make it a nice and different ship...
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murder one
Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS
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Posted - 2009.11.22 18:56:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Lylu as the vindi has 8 turrent slots i think 37.5% is ok, but u cant fit neuts with an active tank, so yes its a bit lower dmg, but it is nice already.
to make it unique remove the drones and give it a higher bonus to dmg, would really make it a nice and different ship...
*OR*, for something completely different... we could keep the drones, and give it a higher damage bonus.
-murder one
[07:13:55] doctorstupid2 > what do i train now? [07:14:05] Trista Rotnor > little boys to 2 |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.11.22 19:49:00 -
[66]
Give it 25m3 more drone bay and change it to 37.5% damage bonus and I think it would be set.
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murder one
Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS
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Posted - 2009.11.22 21:16:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Marlona Sky Give it 25m3 more drone bay and change it to 37.5% damage bonus and I think it would be set.
Purty much.
-murder one
[07:13:55] doctorstupid2 > what do i train now? [07:14:05] Trista Rotnor > little boys to 2 |
Lylu
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Posted - 2009.11.24 10:25:00 -
[68]
low or no drones, cause it is heavily plated and just a smashing blasterboat, but then it needs the rep bonus and more dmg from blasters and i doubt ccp is changing it to a unique ship...
so just change the dmg bonus to 37,5% and the vindi is fine.
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Marlona Sky
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.11.24 13:24:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Marlona Sky Give it 25m3 more drone bay and change it to 37.5% damage bonus and I think it would be set.
CCP plleeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaasssssssssssssssseeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!
At least let us test that on sisi before Dominion. We still have time.
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Volucer S
Noob Fight Club Noob Fleet
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Posted - 2009.11.24 13:47:00 -
[70]
Vindi should have an armor rep bonus I think.
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CCP Ytterbium
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Posted - 2009.11.24 15:20:00 -
[71]
Quite interested in this debate, keep it running please. Here is a -very- quick comparison of these ships.
I. Damage:
Megathron Navy Issue: 7 Guns with x1.25 damage bonus (8.75), 125m3 bandwidth, 175m3 dronebay Kronos: 4 Guns with x2.5 damage bonus (10), 75m3 bandwidth, 125m3 dronebay, +50% to stasis webifier velocity Vindicator: 8 Guns with x1.25 damage bonus (10), 125m3 bandwidth, 125m3 dronebay, +50% to stasis webifier velocity
DPS is roughly the same, Vindicator gets ahead if it uses a full wave of heavies/sentries, but that removes flexibility since it leaves no replacements next to the Navy Mega/Kronos. Kronos/Vindicator however have web strength bonus which helps at close range.
II. Tank:
Megathron Navy Issue: 8 lows, 11250 structure/9961 armor/9316 shields Kronos: 7 lows, 8200 structure/7300 armor/6800 shields but has 37.5% armor repairing efficiency, 16.25% better armor kinetic and 8.125% better armor thermal resistances. Vindicator: 7 lows, 10500 structure/9298 armor/8695 shields
Navy Mega is best for buffer tank, Kronos best for active, while Vindicator is stuck in the middle.
III. Mobility:
Megathron Navy Issue: 110m/s, 0.1216 inertia modifier Kronos: 115m/s, 0.124 inertia modifier Vindicator: 121m/s, 0.0924 inertia modifier
Vindicator wins in terms of agility, and has a bit more speed than its counterparts.
IV. Miscellaneous factors:
Megathron Navy Issue: 1 high slot free for neut/nos if setup allows it fittings wise (or launcher for extra DPS if that's your thing, but it limits the ship ability to defend itself), has 26 magnetometric sensor strength, 3 rig slots Kronos: 4 high slots free for some neut/nos if setup allows it fittings wise, has 13 magnetometric sensor strength, 2 rig slots Vindicator: no spare high slots (8 guns means higher capacitor usage), has 28 magnetometric sensor strengh, 3 rig slots
V. Quick summary:
Remember that's a very quick comparison, since obviously fittings study, cap usage, acceleration time and other factors were left out.
Navy Megathron is supposed to be the most versatile, and does that quite well, however its 8th low slot helps a lot to either squeeze an extra module for tank/DPS next to the two others.
Kronos is aimed for PvE activities, but despite its low magnetometric sensor strength, can still be useful in PvP with its bonuses and provided ECCM is used and/or you don't run into an ECM platform, which is -extremely- situational. Its free high-slots allow fitting of nos/neuts without sacrificing damage (depending on fittings), favors overheating and lower ammo/capacitor consumption.
The Vindicator role should be to provide best face-melting damage at the expense of defence and general versatility next to the two others. However, its damage output next to the Navy Mega/Kronos is only remotely marginally better and only when taking the dronebay into consideration (and let's not forget the Navy Megathron 8th low slot).
Paragraph above explains why we are not really in favor for an armor repairing bonus, or extra drone bay for the Vindicator. Thus, increasing the damage a bit from 25% to 37.5% could be a possibility, depending on how things evolve, which is not a guaranteed action in any shape or form.
In all cases, whatever may or may not possibly, theoretically and maybe ultimately happen to this ship will be left for after Dominion release. Again, just because we are not posting in a thread doesn't mean we are not following its course, and not considering options and tweaks for the future.
We hope that cleared things quite a bit .
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Mojster Pek
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Posted - 2009.11.24 15:59:00 -
[72]
Edited by: Mojster Pek on 24/11/2009 15:58:55 37.5% sounds great, you should make it happen(that will make the vindicator a funn ship to fly) |
Lylu
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Posted - 2009.11.24 18:50:00 -
[73]
well a really good summery and a nice replay :)
vindi needs a better dmg, then it is in line ;), i would prefer just face melting dmg from blasters, would make it a unique ship.
change drone bay to 0 and give it a higher dmg, would make it really unique, would need a 75% dmg bonus to large hybrids. would give 1246dps, with ions and 2 magstabs (T2 Fit), it is high, but it should be the king for short range dmg and u dont have any utility highslot, so it is not that good and no small drones for killing small stuff, but u get insane dmg at short range
the 25m¦ drone bay with 37,5% dmg could be interesting, but iam not sure if it is good...
and u cant fit neutrons on a vindi, on a navy mega u can...
just a short note: just let us test some changes on sisi, would be awesome
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something somethingdark
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Posted - 2009.11.24 18:53:00 -
[74]
Originally by: CCP Ytterbium Quite interested in this debate, keep it running please. Here is a -very- quick comparison of these ships.
-stuff-
Taking into consideration the vindicator should an awesomly agile ship with uber facemelting damage (sounds a bit like the machariel exept for the damage)
Damage Seems to be sort of balanced however the Navy Mega still can inch ahead in performance due to its 8th lowslot
Tank The higher base stats and the 8th lowslot let the Navy Mega both be more versatile and sport a bigger buffertank it makes the vindicator a bit ... meh
Mobility Frankly id like to see the navy mega and the kronos to be more agile, close to what the vindi is now and in turn the vindicator being close to the machariel in terms of agility (but not speed. p.s. machariel needs more speed)
Other Factors such as utility slots, cap recharge, sensor strength et all seem the be fairly well balanced
enjoy my random feedback
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Pattern Clarc
Blue Republic
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Posted - 2009.11.24 19:19:00 -
[75]
I think it's more a cause of the relative performance gap being too narrow (specifically in this case damage) for ships that essentially do the same thing. When you compare the Vigilant or Daredevil to the nearest alternative, there total damage monsters with +30% more dps than the nearest ship in it's class... The Vindicator probably only has less than 10% more damage than it's nearest competitor with very little else (beyond the web and agility) in terms of party tricks to it's name. 37.5% damage bonus would probably fix it, but I could understand calls for 50% damage bonuses. ____ Minmatar ship fixes... |
Qui Shon
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Posted - 2009.11.24 20:40:00 -
[76]
After mulling it over for a bit, maybe you guys were right and I was wrong. 37,5% dmg would be better, but still not completely out of line.
Of course, for endless head scratching option weighing, give it the 37,5% dmg, with 8/6/6 slot layout, and a bit more cpu
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murder one
Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS
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Posted - 2009.11.24 22:59:00 -
[77]
CCP Ytterbium-
Thank you for your reply to the thread. It's really helpful to know that you and your team are indeed paying attention to the discussion at hand. I agree with your general take on the ships (although the Kronos has 3x utility high slots, not four ;) ).
I fly all three ships on TQ (Vindi, Kronos, Megathron Navy Issue) and would like to show you how each of them stack up (with the SISI stats) when fit with comparable fittings.
The Navy Mega:
While most people go with a pure buffer fit with two or three plates, I prefer a hybrid active/buffer fit with a single large rep and a single plate, two EANM a DC and three magstabs. Mids and highs are 'standard' in that I'm fitting mwd/web/disruptor/cap injector. The new fitting increases have allowed me to either easily fit the ship with T1/T2, or add some faction items for grid/cpu savings and fit a medium neutralizer in the 8th high while still fitting a full rack of Neutron IIs.
This is a big deal, as previously I had to use almost all faction mods in order to just barely fit everything on the ship. Add the additional 50m3 of drone space for two flights of light drones or one flight of medium ECM drones and still have space for a full complement of heavy drones. The flexibility here is a *very* welcome and useful addition.
The Kronos:
While it's not getting changed, just to reiterate- it's an excellent PVP ship provided your don't get ECMed. I rarely get into a fight these days where my opponent *doesn't* have a ton of ECM. I've since sold all my Kronos. It's just too difficult to have a fight where ECM isn't involved, and ECCM on the Kronos is worthless as it's sensor strength is so pathetic in the first place it's not worth the effort.
The Kronos' efficient guns can't be stressed enough: half the cap/ammo/heat of normal guns makes a HUGE difference in combat. That and the huge cargo bay give it great staying power during long fights. Personally I find myself using the Kronos' drone bay for ECM or light drones for defense against small tacklers rather than large drones for DPS.
The new Vindicator:
The fitting increase allows me to fit the ship basically the same way as I do the Navy Mega, except for the fact that I don't have the 8th utility high for a neutralizer due to 8 guns, and I don't have the 8th low for an extra magstab. Once you take into account the loss of a magstab vs. the additional 8th gun of the Vindi in order to maintain the same level of tank on the Vindi as the Navy Mega, the Vindi's DPS is no better than the Navy Mega. And if you max out the Vindi's DPS, it's only slightly better than the Navy Mega.
<more>
-murder one
[07:13:55] doctorstupid2 > what do i train now? [07:14:05] Trista Rotnor > little boys to 2 |
Letifer Deus
Total Mayhem. Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2009.11.24 22:59:00 -
[78]
Edited by: Letifer Deus on 24/11/2009 23:00:38 I would say vindi either needs bonus upped to 50% and everything else left the same Or make it 37.5%, but give it some boosts in other areas such as increasing scan res ~25% to 125 (this, I believe is balanced given the quite low targeting range), increased speed to say 132 m/s, which puts more of a gap between vindi and navy mega (20% gap instead of 10%, to be exact). It is still very much slower than the Mach in base speed and even more in mwd/ab speed due to significantly higher mass so no problems there.
If you want damage to be where the vindi sets itself apart, it definitely needs more. The question is whether you want it to be a little more (where dps vindi has ~6.5% more dps than a dps navy mega), but then give it a little loving in some other key areas, or make it have a very clear dps advantage but leave the rest how it is.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!" |
murder one
Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS
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Posted - 2009.11.24 23:04:00 -
[79]
<continued>
-murder one
[07:13:55] doctorstupid2 > what do i train now? [07:14:05] Trista Rotnor > little boys to 2 |
Dr Fighter
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Posted - 2009.11.25 00:10:00 -
[80]
completely agree wiht murder one.
vindi is far too samy for the same money and while the web bonus helps it fails to leave the kronos behind due to the kronos extra util slots. Other faction BS leave their maurder siblings behind maximising their role, vindis role is to melt faces, the extra dmg should be substantial.
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Letifer Deus
Total Mayhem. Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2009.11.25 06:06:00 -
[81]
Let's get some more thoughts on this. not every day you get a real live dev post ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!" |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.11.25 09:00:00 -
[82]
Edited by: Marlona Sky on 25/11/2009 09:01:34 I guess what i meant was 37.5% damage and increase the drone bay from 125m3 to 150m3 giving it an extra 25m3, not 25m3 TOTAL drone bay. But maybe that might make it a bit too OP. But I am definitly for buffing the damage bonus up to 37.5%
I agree that buffer tank should be navy mega, active tank is kronos with vindi last cause when it comes to best damage, it should be the vindicator for the best in your face damage.
There a way we can fake it on sisi to test it w/ 37.5% damage? I guess we can't truly test it unless CCP changes its attributes.
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Lionel Redstar
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Posted - 2009.11.25 09:11:00 -
[83]
I'm all for the 37.5% damage bonus. This will make everyone happy without turning the Vindicator into a overpowered ship.
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ATTAKowl
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Posted - 2009.11.25 10:07:00 -
[84]
I think the 25m3 extra drone space would be real cool to see to give it alittle more utility but I also think its bonus to MWD capacitor makes it a bigger priority to give it a much better damage bonus. Plus its the coolest looking variant an takes alot of crosstraining to fly, it really should be more than mediocre compared to its sister ships. Lets test some changes to it, I really want to see some better incentive to fly this thing someday! |
Lylu
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Posted - 2009.11.25 11:25:00 -
[85]
and it needs a bit more cap, cause u dont have any high for a nos, so u loose against anything neuting...
and look at the bhaal, it is an insane ship, the vindi just meh as it is now, give it a 75 or more dmg boost and remove the drones...
maybe some more structure, cause it is really awesome to have a buffer and even if u lost already u come back into the fight
and i,am not sure if u can fit corpus reppers + ions fittingwise...
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Dr Fighter
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Posted - 2009.11.25 11:58:00 -
[86]
ideally chop 2 of its slots off, give the pirate bonus a buff to 137.5% and have four turrets (nightmare esque) plus the 25m drone bay for a bonus flight of lights.
that would be really nice and definitly make up for its poor HP or active tank abilitys
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HeliosGal
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.11.25 12:07:00 -
[87]
at the very least give it more bandwidth and a little bit extra drone bay.or give it a reduced sig radius to make up forthe mwd focus Signature - CCP what this game needs is more variance in PVE aspects and a little bit less PVP focus, more content more varied level 1-4 missions more than just 10 per faction high sec low sec and 00 |
Mojster Pek
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Posted - 2009.11.25 12:42:00 -
[88]
I vote to remove drones and give it 75% damage boost
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Dibsi Dei
Salamyhkaisten kilta HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2009.11.25 14:12:00 -
[89]
Yes, because Phantasm is so very comparable with other pirate faction cruisers it needs third of its shields removed to not be overpowered.
Vindi on the other hand with its 8 bonused blasters, 5 mids and 90% webs needs boosting.
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Letifer Deus
Total Mayhem. Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2009.11.25 14:47:00 -
[90]
Edited by: Letifer Deus on 25/11/2009 14:48:37
Originally by: Dibsi Dei Yes, because Phantasm is so very comparable with other pirate faction cruisers it needs third of its shields removed to not be overpowered.
I don't like what they did to the phantasm any more than you, but this thread has nothing to do with phantasms
Quote: Vindi on the other hand with its 8 bonused blasters, 5 mids and 90% webs needs boosting.
The issue with the vindi as it stands has been made quite clear. As this is undoubtedly just a phantasm complaint, I'll not bother reiterating the points.
Quote: ideally chop 2 of its slots off, give the pirate bonus a buff to 137.5% and have four turrets (nightmare esque) plus the 25m drone bay for a bonus flight of lights.
I actually considered something like this myself earlier in the thread, but as Ytt said, they want it to be less flexible, not more. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!" |
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