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Wiley Peterson	Posted - 2009.11.11 18:35:00 - [31] Originally by: DTMKnight As a newer player I have to disagree with this post. The largest problem facing CCP and EVE is the extreme learning curve for this game. In my search to recruit friends to EVE the single largest problem I face from those interested in a MMO is the learning curve of EVE. I do agree that other fundamental programming problems with EVE should be fixed but an effort to make the game easier to play should not be ignored. I'm not at all for lowering the preregs of skills as I think it is at a very good place right now. Making it easier to understand which mods are suited for the types of weapons you are using would be very nice though. If CCP released an expansion that only focused on long time players it would be the beginning of the end for EVE. Always look for new blood or you are bound to die. Especially with the Star Wars and Star Trek MMO's on the horizon. Easier to learn, yes. Easier to play? No. As far as the skills, look at which ones they are lowering the req's for. Most of them are already broadly used and considered "must have" by anyone who does any sort of combat. the idea that this will reduce specialization is flawed. Requiring only mining iii instead of iv for mining upgrades seems pointless (a level 4 rank 1 skill doesn't take that long anyway). The only one that is really questionable is bomb deployment.
Destination SkillQueue Are We There Yet	Posted - 2009.11.11 19:09:00 - [32] Originally by: Wiley Peterson Easier to learn, yes. Easier to play? No. As far as the skills, look at which ones they are lowering the req's for. Most of them are already broadly used and considered "must have" by anyone who does any sort of combat. the idea that this will reduce specialization is flawed. Requiring only mining iii instead of iv for mining upgrades seems pointless (a level 4 rank 1 skill doesn't take that long anyway). The only one that is really questionable is bomb deployment. Well bombs can be used and have been used as an effective anti-blob weapon and a anti-blob weapon, that isn't easily accessible isn't that useful. The cloaking change propably relates to this, since without it there is little point in flying stealth bombers/covops. So they add some very useful and powerful fleet roles besides tackling, that a new player can get into with very little training.
Ryhss Caldari Sarum A Fortiori Sanctimony of Bellum	Posted - 2009.11.11 19:16:00 - [33] Originally by: TheBlueMonkey IÆm not saying focus on old players, IÆm saying focus on doing whatÆs best for the game not whatÆs best for the shareholders. Ummmmmm, why start a business if you're not in it for the money? This part of your message is just plain dumb. The rest has it's merits. I bite.
nafiy gnaw	Posted - 2009.11.11 21:50:00 - [34] I'm interested on your saying on the shareholders. Unfortunately, if the devs dont please the shareholders, they'll lose their job. So, the only thing we could do is that if the shareholders decide to do we mass-quit.
F'nog Amarr Celestial Horizon Corp. United Corporate Ventures	Posted - 2009.11.12 04:58:00 - [35] Originally by: nafiy gnaw I'm interested on your saying on the shareholders. Unfortunately, if the devs dont please the shareholders, they'll lose their job. So, the only thing we could do is that if the shareholders decide to do we mass-quit. There are no shareholders. CCP is a private company. Originally by: Kazuma Saruwatari F'nog for Amarr Emperor. Nuff said Originally by: Chribba Go F'nog! You're a hero! Not a Zero! /me bows
Wiley Peterson	Posted - 2009.11.12 05:09:00 - [36] Originally by: F'nog Originally by: nafiy gnaw I'm interested on your saying on the shareholders. Unfortunately, if the devs dont please the shareholders, they'll lose their job. So, the only thing we could do is that if the shareholders decide to do we mass-quit. There are no shareholders. CCP is a private company. I'm pretty sure CCP has shareholders. There are many, many corporations that are not publicly traded. You are confusing it with sole propietorships and general partnerships.
Dahl Evonitek	Posted - 2009.11.12 11:42:00 - [37] There is a fairly easy solution to the "learning cliff" problem: Those with alts in the npc starter corps could pass on knowledge in there while logged on doing their empire business. This is already happening to an extent in some starter corps (waves to the guys in FNA). Corps could actually recruit rather new players and teach them the ropes. Corps could not wardec eve-uni. Oldish players could perhaps not grief the newer players. There will be a lot of new players to grief other new players, let them do it. Of course those solutions would "ruin the fun" for a lot of eve players All these things are being done and have been done by a lot of wise players for quite a while already. Maybe those that are concerned that eve is being dumbed down should join into the effort to take CCP the need to do so. Just my 0.02 ISK. Dahl.
Protheroe UMEC	Posted - 2009.11.12 12:49:00 - [38] Originally by: Wiley Peterson Originally by: F'nog There are no shareholders. CCP is a private company. I'm pretty sure CCP has shareholders. There are many, many corporations that are not publicly traded. You are confusing it with sole propietorships and general partnerships. CCP had just under a hundred shareholders at the end of 2008. Over a third of the company is owned by a London based Icelandic investment group led by Bj÷rg=lfur Thor Bj÷rg=lfsson, Iceland's only billionaire. The next largest shareholder, a subsidiary of a venture capital firm based in Boston that specialises in technology startups, owns a sixth of the company. CCP's founder, Reynir Har=arson, owns over 11% (interesting interview with him here), and a few other employees, including Hilmar, the CEO (here he is talking about DUST 514), together own about 15%. The rest is owned by other individuals and small investors.

CCP Eris Discordia	Posted - 2009.11.12 13:43:00 - [39] I think I understand the worry and concern that we are doing a lot for new players, especially compared to the past where we did ...hardly anything for new players. learning curve of popular mmo's graph This picture is very funny but in EVE it was very very hard to learn the basics and we are changing that now. We won't change the complexity of EVE, but we try to explain various concepts so that new players have an idea of what is going on around them Pink Dread has been hijacked

Mrs Snowman	Posted - 2009.11.12 14:11:00 - [40] Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia I think I understand the worry and concern that we are doing a lot for new players, especially compared to the past where we did ...hardly anything for new players. But isnt dominion doing a LOT for existing players? Like the new sov system to me a change that well beyond the scope of the 'new player' I personally still beleive CCP are a long way off being done with improving the new player system. Of my circle of friends that I play mmo's with, im still the only one that plays eve... I'll tell you when your done when they start playing too :p
Peryner University of Caille	Posted - 2009.11.12 14:22:00 - [41] Originally by: Mrs Snowman Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia I think I understand the worry and concern that we are doing a lot for new players, especially compared to the past where we did ...hardly anything for new players. But isnt dominion doing a LOT for existing players? Like the new sov system to me a change that well beyond the scope of the 'new player' I personally still believe CCP are a long way off being done with improving the new player system. Of my circle of friends that I play mmo's with, im still the only one that plays eve... I'll tell you when your done when they start playing too :p well the IDEA was to make 0.0 look like a great place to go for new players. and without joining an alliance they could rat in the systems to make money for them and the alliance holding sov sorta thing. but any new player will such look at the math and notice that level 4 missions are better, just like exdous. However I believe that one day new players will see highsec has a safe place to make money, and 0.0 as a dangerous, but rewarding place to make money and advance their career..
Protheroe UMEC	Posted - 2009.11.12 14:23:00 - [42] Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia I think I understand the worry and concern that we are doing a lot for new players, especially compared to the past where we did ...hardly anything for new players. learning curve of popular mmo's graph This picture is very funny but in EVE it was very very hard to learn the basics and we are changing that now. We won't change the complexity of EVE, but we try to explain various concepts so that new players have an idea of what is going on around them I agree with the goal of providing better tools to learn the game, but I can also see how the challenge of climbing that cliff and reaching the top with the knowledge that you got there on your own (before being mercilessly thrown off), can be part of EVE's unique appeal. Is there a danger of eroding that potential sense of achievement by making the process easier?
TheBlueMonkey Gallente Ministers Of Destruction.	Posted - 2009.11.12 14:40:00 - [43] Edited by: TheBlueMonkey on 12/11/2009 14:41:07 Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia I think I understand the worry and concern that we are doing a lot for new players, especially compared to the past where we did ...hardly anything for new players. learning curve of popular mmo's graph This picture is very funny but in EVE it was very very hard to learn the basics and we are changing that now. We won't change the complexity of EVE, but we try to explain various concepts so that new players have an idea of what is going on around them This graph is actually what made me join Eve. The game could of been about fighting quideches in dumbledoph or whatever those books are about for all I cared. I like complexity, I like it when people tell me something is impossible. Because When I actually manage to do it\work it out I get to feel good about myself. Even if everyone elses response is "egh" or "we did that ages ago" it still makes a happy monkey. As for the new sov changes, I don't see them changing much. The displayed space held will shrink but the alliances will still rat in the same systems and probably destroy anyone that tries to move in. That's my guess. Edit: Thank you for replying ccp, I do like how you guys do that :) -- Nothing is worthless, you may have gotten it for free but it still has an inherent value
Pyus 4 wing	Posted - 2009.11.12 14:50:00 - [44] The new player experience along with the general game interface still have many way in which they can and should be improved. Two years ago when I started playing I remember how frustrating it was trying to figure out the basics of the game - I particularly think of the mission/agent/standings system here - and how unintuitive it was and still is. During this entire process, and even when I finally figured out how to find and use agents, get to the next level agent, etc., I have to admit one of the primary thoughts in the back of my mind was: "If this is how unorganized and archaic the rest of the game is, why should I continue playing." I want to see new content for vet players like myself of course, but I also want to see the game "playable" in the first few days/weeks of the rookie. Currently it's about as playable as cracking open Unix manual for a newbie.
Wet Ferret	Posted - 2009.11.12 14:56:00 - [45] EVE certainly has a long way to go before it could be considered a dumbed down mainstream MMO. Besides, some of us old players really don't mind if they make things easier for new ones. They can't stop changing and updating the game because we're used to the way things are. But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started.
mettisitis sindicis	Posted - 2009.11.13 14:21:00 - [46] B
mettisitis sindicis	Posted - 2009.11.13 14:36:00 - [47] Edited by: mettisitis sindicis on 13/11/2009 14:36:43 Originally by: TheBlueMonkey Blah, blah, Eve is becoming to noob-friendly, the sky is falling, the Eve-gate is collapsing, blah, blah, blah. Eve was a giant pile of crap when it was first released. It' has grown tremendously since then. The changes they made since then have largely been positive. I haven't played a single MMO that didn't have ongoing balancing issues, and nerfing this or that isn't weakening the game overall. Name some expansions changes since release that have actually "dumbed the game down." If you think a tutorial is dumbing it down, you need to jump off the EVE cliff. Yeah, they can get into the game quicker now than before. I think that is a good thing and adheres to the sandbox concept. A lot of the other advantages new players have is because of things older players created or contributed to, like Chribba's agent finder, battleclinic, various forum post "guides," and mods like EFT. And I don't know what you're complaining about with old players not getting anything. Have you read any of the patch notes for Dominion?
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2009.11.13 17:26:00 - [48] Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia I think I understand the worry and concern that we are doing a lot for new players, especially compared to the past where we did ...hardly anything for new players. learning curve of popular mmo's graph This picture is very funny but in EVE it was very very hard to learn the basics and we are changing that now. We won't change the complexity of EVE, but we try to explain various concepts so that new players have an idea of what is going on around them oh god, a dev linked the pic of fail, eve is doomed
JitaPriceChecker2	Posted - 2009.11.13 17:42:00 - [49] Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia I think I understand the worry and concern that we are doing a lot for new players, especially compared to the past where we did ...hardly anything for new players. Did eve died because of it ? No.It grew. Was it unique unlike any other MMO ? Yes.
Kenz Rider	Posted - 2009.11.13 18:22:00 - [50] Anyone that thinks the learning curve of this game isn't long is crazy. :) Theoretically, there are things a three month old character can do to have fun in some of the more challenging aspects of Eve, for example living in a wormhole. But in reality, unless that person has a very close friend in a corps and even then specializes on very focused roles, there isn't much likihood of such person being included and not much such a player can do even if they are. And to take the WH example a little further, let's say that such a player only salvages and maybe probes -- they are going to be pretty bored, because you need to be able to do a little of everything in most WH corporations. Skill requirements must be continuously dropped over time, or new players won't be able to play with old players. Forget actually competing with an older player, we are talking about even being able to contribute to a greater cause. Some people can do it -- because they are exceptionally smart, know how to get in with the right people and willing to be highly specialized for the first 6 months to a year. But worrying about a 6 month old character climbing the learning curve too quickly I think is a bit off. There is a possibility that the middle aged players, say 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 years have it a bit easier today and can compete perhaps too well with the 4-6 year old players. I think if you've put 1 1/2 years into the game though, you should be able to do a lot in the game. And still the way it is now such a player would only be good at a few things, whereas the older player would many more areas they were strong in. - - - -- - - - -- - - - -- - - - Little known fact: 95% of DS's signatures have nothing to do with EVE.
Manfred Rickenbocker	Posted - 2009.11.13 19:25:00 - [51] The progression of EVE currently is quite good. Even using the Graph of Dhoom posted by CCP Discordia, you'll notice that it levels out quite quickly compared to the other MMOs, you just need to rewire your brain for good-think. After the first month of paying (14day free trial + 30 day subscription) a noob should feel that they understand the basics, be in a cruiser with decently skilled guns, and then off they go! Currently the game does a really good job of doing this, which means its settled in about the right difficulty. Beyond that, it doesnt take more than a week (or 2 at most) to get your foot dunked into most of the other areas to sample them and see if you like it. This is important for new and old characters alike because unlike other MMOs its really unwise to create a new character and start from scratch just because you've been a Mage and want to see what being a Rogue (or whatever) is all about. This system is brilliant because you never lose what progress you've already achieved. Bonus that you can train while NOT online, for those of us with real jobs and like to take vacations. That said, I hate to bring in a discussion about learning skills, but those really become a huge crutch when it comes to enticing new players to keep playing given that all old players say "Do them!" when it symbolizes a plateau of not achieving anything new. Perhaps adding new mods/content based on learning skills even if CCP cant legitimately eliminate them without annoying all of us who trained them. That, however, is a discussion for another board. Originally by: Kenz Rider There is a possibility that the middle aged players, say 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 years have it a bit easier today and can compete perhaps too well with the 4-6 year old players. I think if you've put 1 1/2 years into the game though, you should be able to do a lot in the game. And still the way it is now such a player would only be good at a few things, whereas the older player would many more areas they were strong in. "LOL" at this. You know EVE is a step above other MMOs when you classify middle-aged players at 1 1/2 YEARS and "Old" at 3+. Usually you are a salty veteran of any other MMO at 2 months, maybe 6, depending on how long it takes to grind your character(s). ------------------------ Peace through superior firepower: a guiding principle for uncertain times.
mettisitis sindicis	Posted - 2009.11.13 21:04:00 - [52] Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2 Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia I think I understand the worry and concern that we are doing a lot for new players, especially compared to the past where we did ...hardly anything for new players. Did eve died because of it ? No.It grew. Was it unique unlike any other MMO ? Yes. Post Hoc, Ergo Propter Hoc. There are a lot of reasons why EVE grew. Buggy code, a crappy, anti-intuitive UI, excessive boring timesinks and grinding, and no documentation were not among those reasons. Am I the only one that remembers EVE when it was first released? It was frustrating as hell! The only reasons I played it then was because there was nothing out better at the time. Go back and read the reviews from release. I think people forget how much emphasis was on mining, and how utterly, suicidally boring it was.
JSC	Posted - 2009.11.13 23:37:00 - [53] Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia learning curve of popular mmo's graph I'm saddened to see that even devs are trotting out that old chestnut. Gah. Seriously. Gah.
Miss Demeenor	Posted - 2009.11.14 09:01:00 - [54] I play EVE, I started as a nobody, and in 12months am now 1 rung above a nobody :). The beauty of EVE, is it reflects real life in many ways, the desire to fit in, better oneself, network, and strive to achieve perfection, what makes EVE so attractive to me, is that it is a microcosm of real things, only not as painful, its an escape from reality, yet when you are immursed in it, it becomes real....for a while anyway......EVE is not a game IMO, it is a hobby and a learning tool, so much of what we do in EVE we experience in real life, it is a test cell for ones development...........
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.11.14 09:31:00 - [55] Originally by: Manfred Rickenbocker That said, I hate to bring in a discussion about learning skills, but those really become a huge crutch when it comes to enticing new players to keep playing given that all old players say "Do them!" No. We. Dont.
Gariuys Evil Strangers Inc.	Posted - 2009.11.14 10:56:00 - [56] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Manfred Rickenbocker That said, I hate to bring in a discussion about learning skills, but those really become a huge crutch when it comes to enticing new players to keep playing given that all old players say "Do them!" No. We. Dont. Other new players give that advice. Old players tend to give better advice in my experience.
TimMc Gallente Brutal Deliverance Extreme Prejudice.	Posted - 2009.11.14 11:15:00 - [57] I, for one, don't know where all these dumbing down stories come from. New player experience getting easier? Sounds good because it took me 3 attempts at Eve before I got it, and a new tutorial is not dumbing it down for older players. As if the tutorial is going to explain the entire game in a few hours, we all know Eve takes years to understand. In my opinion, NOS nerf, speed nerf and alot of nerfs lately have made eve harder. I used to get away with some insane survival statistics, while now I am dying alot more to people I previously would have laughed at.
Kiri Serrensun	Posted - 2009.11.14 11:36:00 - [58] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Manfred Rickenbocker That said, I hate to bring in a discussion about learning skills, but those really become a huge crutch when it comes to enticing new players to keep playing given that all old players say "Do them!" No. We. Dont. I spend a bit of time in the help channel--and yes, a lot of people do, regardless of age. It's fairly common to see "Okay, first get your learning skills to 5 basic and 4 advanced (even charisma) or you are crippling yourself!". They forget that while a week of learning skills are a drop in the bucket to a veteran, they'll probably just send a noob away, because he got bored before picking up any neat "do new stuff" skills.
Leisen	Posted - 2009.11.19 12:14:00 - [59] RAAAAAGGH BUMP OF EPIC PROPORTIONS!!! Because I totally feel the same as OP.
5pinDizzy Amarr State Protectorate	Posted - 2009.11.19 13:29:00 - [60] Originally by: Chribba Don't be worried, tag along and enjoy the ride. It's only pixels Pft, you always say that. Said it in my whine threads at least a couple of times from memory, still makes me lol when I see it though.

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