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TheBlueMonkey
Gallente
Ministers Of Destruction.
The First Blood
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Posted - 2009.11.11 11:02:00 -
[1]
In general at the moment about Eve and where itÆs going.
I really love playing eve, itÆs a great game, I like the fact that you can do pretty much whatever you want in it.
Be that pvp, exploration, missioning, ninja looting, piracy, suicide ganking etc.
I like the way that the Devs interact with the player base (mostly), I like that the fan fest has the bit of wives/girlfriends/others so we donÆt get moaned to death :)
My worry has come from a few things recently though.
This apparent ôitÆs too hard so we wonÆtö attitude and ônew players, new players, new playersö.
I understand that there is some core code in eve that might be so old that no current member of staff knows or can remember how it was written but a house built on a poor foundation wonÆt last long.
Why isnÆt that code documented? IÆd get in all sorts of trouble if I didnÆt document things at work.
IÆm also pretty sure that most players would be happy to play eve ôas isö while the CCP guys tinkered and either understood or rewrote the core code. IÆd happily go a year or more without an update if I knew this was what CCP were doing tbh.
Think about all the possibilities, dynamic agents that move around, dynamic sec status to name a couple.
IÆm quite publicly anti-wow but not in a ôitÆs addictive blah blah blahö kind of way.
Firstly, I donÆt like the multiple server thing, itÆs stupid.
Secondly, itÆs a glorified flash game
And thirdly, itÆs full of idiots (the servers I played on anyhow)
Then I started talking to some friends that have played it for years and itÆs a storey of a slow demise.
It starts off with wow being aimed at 10-25 year olds and had lots of mildly interesting (in my mind) content.
Then as time progressed they nerfed this and nerfed that, made it so you get mounts at level 20 or whatever etc and kept tailoring it for new players.
With the new content constantly being aimed at ônew player experienceö it dumbs down the game for everyone else, when burning crusade appeared the top guilds completed it in 1-2weeks, when wraith of the leach king hit it was done in 12 hours.
This all leaves us with the current incarnation of wow sell out thatÆs aimed at 6-18 year olds.
Which is all well and good but with eve itÆs different.
With the passive learning system that we have itÆs a much bigger investment compared to grinding for a few weeks and hitting end game.
Yes new players are important so that we can see bigger and better things but not at the expense of the older players, theyÆre the guys that got CCP this far, theyÆre the guys who with their acts of espionage, warfare and economic might got eve into the news on more than one occasion.
TheyÆre the guys that will stick around long after the surge of new players have gotten bored and wandered off.
IÆm not saying focus on old players, IÆm saying focus on doing whatÆs best for the game not whatÆs best for the shareholders.
IÆd like to believe that there arenÆt meetings at CCP that revolve around ôx number of new players by next quarterö and such but from watching the forums, the fan fest videos and listening to the general eve chatter I get the impression that things are beginning to turn into check chasing.
Yes itÆs a business at the end of the day but ultimately, if you make a game thatÆs high quality, fun and playable, then people will happily keep giving you money.
If you just chase money then the game becomes more and more generic as you follow the formula to making a successful game, people will play it for a little while, then get bored and move on to the next big fad.
And I donÆt want to see that.
Um...
Flame on?
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Nothing is worthless, you may have gotten it for free but it still has an inherent value
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
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Posted - 2009.11.11 11:03:00 -
[2]
Don't be worried, tag along and enjoy the ride. It's only pixels 
Secure 3rd party service |
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Jei'son Bladesmith
The Storm Knights
The Cool Kids Club
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Posted - 2009.11.11 11:16:00 -
[3]
Chribba's just happy he's getting his Tech III Veldspar in Dominion (what do you think all that sovereignty upgrade is REALLY for?!)
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Zartanic
Red Federation
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Posted - 2009.11.11 11:17:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Zartanic on 11/11/2009 11:18:22
Any Company that did not have regular discussions about how to attract and keep new customers would be incompetent. WOW has sold out completely to the inept and lazy, no doubt about that, but I see no evidence of that in EVE. Making the UI usable, the whole interface less clunky and incorporating elements to the game designed to make the learning curve more reasonable does not mean dumbing down at all. I want to play the game not fight its interface or be faced with obtuse game mechanic descriptions.
As long as the core of the game remains challenging that's all that matters. But the UI is the one thing I think that puts many new player's off playing. I agree I do not know why they still have it the way it is, maybe they have lost the code notes. This is one area that WOW puts EVE to shame which is not that hard to achieve. Maybe there is a badly designed base core of the game that means any changes now would be hard to implement. But that has not stopped code rewrites in EVE in the past.
I see WOW as game that is slowly dying and going for the easiest market as well as having gimmicks in place of strong game play. CCP on the other hand really do seem to innovate, they still love their game and see a long future for it.
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Aodha Khan
Minmatar
Ghost Festival
Naraka.
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Posted - 2009.11.11 11:18:00 -
[5]
Eve has so much more potential than is being created, its a shame that much of what CCP started has lost its momentum.
Yet still they are a doing better job than any other MMORPG company imo. 
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Neamus
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Posted - 2009.11.11 12:22:00 -
[6]
To be honest I don't understand the criticism, is it that what you want to see in the game hasn't been implemented?
I don't believe EvE is being dumbed down at all, one look at dominion tells me that. The interface could do with a bit of dumbing down to be honest, its hardly intuitive is it (they are working on it though, the upcoming fleet window changes are an example). But the core game play as far as I can tell just keeps getting more challenging, not less.
How can you honestly look at the last couple of expansions and the upcoming expansion and then claim that CCP are turning EvE into WoW and only considering new players? In fact I find the whole concept of holding EvE and WoW up next to each other ridiculous. They're like chalk and cheese.
Re-think your entire post and come back when it makes sense please.
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TheBlueMonkey
Gallente
Ministers Of Destruction.
The First Blood
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Posted - 2009.11.11 12:53:00 -
[7]
There's nothing specific that I want brought into eve at the moment.
I'd like to see less focus on solo play, I'd like to see a better balance between empire and 0.0, I'd like to see more love given to older players and oh for the love of god I'd explode with joy if they gave me more complexity when it came to industry but there are no specifics.
As for dumbing down Eve, my first port of call would be probing, it used to be decently complex now any 3 day old character can do it hence the ninja mining boom(not that I have anything against the ninjas).
When wormholes turned up one of the devs made a comment about new people seeing them and thinking they were cool so joining and as such they needed to make it so new players could get to them quickly was a must.
Whereas most people I speak to see wormholes as end game PVE.
The up coming dominion expansion does overhaul the 0.0 sov setup but at the same time it doesn't.
In that the boreders will shrink but the patrolled territory will stay the same.
Any small alliances that decide to lay claim to space will get steam rollered the second anyone large finds them.
They're not adding enough incentive for people to go to 0.0 when lvl 4's are that safe and easy.
I can jump into most level 4's agro the room, drop drones and go watch TV.
Anyhow, it's the thin end of the wedge, the past expansions and the new one coming all seem to focus on making it easier for newer players.
That's where the comparison comes in.
I'm not comparing WoW and Eve as such, not the games anyhow, It's more comparing Blizzard and CCP's business model around the game.
Yes they need to make money to survive but if they becomes their soul focus then I'll be a very unhappy monkey indeed :(
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Nothing is worthless, you may have gotten it for free but it still has an inherent value
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.11.11 12:58:00 -
[8]
Go look at the forums c.2006
You will see plenty and plenty of complaints about the game being dumbed down, it's too hard for new players etc etc.
Plus ca change...
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fuze
Gallente
Quam Singulari
Cult of War
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Posted - 2009.11.11 13:10:00 -
[9]
The OP has a point. Eve is being dumbed down quite a lot during the years and it also gets more like a second job for most people that want to get ahead.
There isn't anything besides PvP (not blobbing) that takes real skill to try and pull things off. All the rest you can do with spending time at it.
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2009.11.11 13:12:00 -
[10]
Other than the tutorials/"new character" which started out as being utter crap, CCP have not actually changed much to make game any less than it was.
They are continually reducing skill requirements as the number of skills grows to make things more accesible, but that generally just means people flying stuff they are not ready for = free kills!
I get the feeling that a lot more effort is spent catering to us old timers; T3, Marauders, Capitals, New Sov, Faction Ships etc.
CCP has adamantly claimed since I joined that they want Eve to stand apart from the mass market MMO's .. dirty, grimy and gruesome (like all sandboxes)
So far they have not done any of the major kiddie-game changes that Blizzard has and they have been on the scene for about the same time so I doubt they will at least as long as their current business model is working out.
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Mrs Snowman
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Posted - 2009.11.11 13:18:00 -
[11]
 Originally by: TheBlueMonkey
IÆm not saying focus on old players, IÆm saying focus on doing whatÆs best for the game not whatÆs best for the shareholders.
The two are mutually dependent on each other.
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Daenosa
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Posted - 2009.11.11 14:12:00 -
[12]
i generally agree with the OP
the lower of requirements for certain skills (hacking, cloaking etc) is a silly thing to do in my opinion.
As it will start with a few skills and end up with 90% of the game content accessible to new players, if that happens what's the point in playing for any length of time?
I do say focus on the older players as that is the whole point of playing a game is it not? To have fun and have a reason to keep playing even after 2-3 years of playing.
New players can already do so so much it is unreal, why CCP have the urge to make it even easier i have no idea.
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Roemy Schneider
Vanishing Point.
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Posted - 2009.11.11 14:31:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Jei'son Bladesmith
Chribba's just happy he's getting his Tech III Veldspar in Dominion (what do you think all that sovereignty upgrade is REALLY for?!)
aka reinforced metal scraps?
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putting the gist back into logistics |
Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
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Posted - 2009.11.11 14:41:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Daenosa
i generally agree with the OP
the lower of requirements for certain skills (hacking, cloaking etc) is a silly thing to do in my opinion.
As it will start with a few skills and end up with 90% of the game content accessible to new players, if that happens what's the point in playing for any length of time?
I do say focus on the older players as that is the whole point of playing a game is it not? To have fun and have a reason to keep playing even after 2-3 years of playing.
New players can already do so so much it is unreal, why CCP have the urge to make it even easier i have no idea.
The point of playing is to enjoy yourself not to wait months to get to play the full game. The access to most features and careers should not be heavily skillpoint dependant. Don't mistake this for removing all limits placed by skills or removing careers and specialisation. Some things are just so basic to the game, that everyone needs to be able to do it with very little training. Exploration might the the most recent example of this, since it has actually been changed to a basic thing from a more specialized one. The specialisation needs to be maintained like it is with manufacturing, but that doesn't mean you should have to train weeks to start building your first T1 items. People need to be able to play and do as much as possible from the start and just expand their options and specialize as time goes on. It makes for a better game and propably helps CCP to retain more of those who try the trial offer. My guess for the "dumbing down" would be, that CCP decided to put dev focus on exploration and related content, and turn them from a sideshow to a central act. That just means all the relevant skills needed to do it had to be easy to access. It also allows them to add new things using the system to all professions, since the SP investment to learn the basics is insignificant.
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Esu Nahalas
The Night Corporation
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Posted - 2009.11.11 15:03:00 -
[15]
Don't be worried. There's always time to panic.
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Daenosa
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Posted - 2009.11.11 15:04:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Destination SkillQueue
The point of playing is to enjoy yourself not to wait months to get to play the full game. The access to most features and careers should not be heavily skillpoint dependant. Don't mistake this for removing all limits placed by skills or removing careers and specialisation. Some things are just so basic to the game, that everyone needs to be able to do it with very little training. Exploration might the the most recent example of this, since it has actually been changed to a basic thing from a more specialized one.
The specialisation needs to be maintained like it is with manufacturing, but that doesn't mean you should have to train weeks to start building your first T1 items. People need to be able to play and do as much as possible from the start and just expand their options and specialize as time goes on. It makes for a better game and propably helps CCP to retain more of those who try the trial offer.
My guess for the "dumbing down" would be, that CCP decided to put dev focus on exploration and related content, and turn them from a sideshow to a central act. That just means all the relevant skills needed to do it had to be easy to access. It also allows them to add new things using the system to all professions, since the SP investment to learn the basics is insignificant.
Eve never ever made you wait months and months for the basic stuff ever, now all of a sudden its not making you wait for some certain advance stuff aswell. That is why i agree with the OP.
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Nihiliax
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Posted - 2009.11.11 15:06:00 -
[17]
Now I could be being insanely naive but I do get the feeling that in CCP we may just be dealing with something rather special in today's climate - a company that seems to care more for the quality of its product than for wholesale commercial success.
They have put some effort in recent years into improving the new player experience but I don't think that has equated with "dumbing-down" the game per se rather than just providing a little extra information for those just starting out.
Rather than pander to newer players their attitude seems to be one of HTFU and if that doesn't work then there is always this alternative.
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Tofus
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Posted - 2009.11.11 15:27:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Tofus on 11/11/2009 15:36:25
CCP should just get their heads out of their *%$@%&!-es and focus on customer-satisfaction for a bit.
It is really appalling to repeatedly loose ships to 2-3 year old bugs.
Even more appalling is it when CCP claims nothing happened, cuz'there are (and I quote) "[..] no logs on our servers indicating a problem"
AFTER YEARS OF USING THIS BLOODY EXCUSE, JUST F&^@%ING FIX THOSE @#^%%!## SERVER LOGS FOR ONCE, CCP!
Of course, there's a lot more examples: PL not getting their tournament prizes after weeks of waiting. Pure incompetence. And then arrogantly closing the forum threads, cuz 'they were posted in the wrong place' (while CCP carefully remains silent on the absense of places where you COULD post this stuff).
Petitions that take F*(&(*#&+NG MONTHS!!!!!! to get an answer.
The topic-starter is right to be worried; CCP's service record would suggest they primarily care about making Icelandic Krones over our collective backs. Or at least, that's the feeling that stuck with me after almost 3 years of playing this game.
Nowadays, I don't petition CCP anymore, I don't want to have anything to do with them anymore. Having to deal with the frustration of going through weeks of typing requests/explaining your situation has time and time again proven to be more frustrating then just to take my bug-induced losses without reimbursement.
I've accepted Eve is as it is, and that CCP is completely incapable of offering ANY FORM of professional customer support. I guess it's the price we have to pay for the other 80% of the game itself that is totally awesome.
But you have to hand it to CCP: their game-concept is still entertaining, just as long as you avoid dealing with them directly! ;p
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Jarna
Amarr
Angelus Degeneris
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Posted - 2009.11.11 16:18:00 -
[19]
Originally by: TheBlueMonkey
IÆm also pretty sure that most players would be happy to play eve ôas isö while the CCP guys tinkered and either understood or rewrote the core code. IÆd happily go a year or more without an update if I knew this was what CCP were doing tbh.
I have said this counteless times. Take 6 months to a year off and fix the damn game.
I'd be way more happy without the new content. I have barely seen the current content, let alone needing so much new stuff. (Though it's about time there is an SOV overhaul)
Originally by: TheBlueMonkey
The up coming dominion expansion does overhaul the 0.0 sov setup but at the same time it doesn't.
In that the boreders will shrink but the patrolled territory will stay the same.
Any small alliances that decide to lay claim to space will get steam rollered the second anyone large finds them.
Nah. The reason the borders will shrink is because your borders will only stretch as far as you can upkeep. Even if a large alliance comes along, they will still need to be able to upkeep that space to own it. I think this will make 0.0 more alive than it has been for awhile.
Originally by: TheBlueMonkey
dynamic agents that move around
Err, I don't wanna be hunting down my agents. An agent has an office, why would he be in Tash-Murkon of his office is in Safizon?
Originally by: TheBlueMonkey
And thirdly, itÆs full of idiots (the servers I played on anyhow)
Maybe who you played with. My server was fine.
Originally by: TheBlueMonkey
Then as time progressed they nerfed this and nerfed that, made it so you get mounts at level 20 or whatever etc and kept tailoring it for new players.
But it also allows people to level up a new character faster without having to go through the 5 month grind they went through with their main.
Originally by: TheBlueMonkey
when wraith of the leach king hit it was done in 12 hours.
26 hours.
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Fifinella
Caldari
Sarz'na Khumatari
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.11.11 16:22:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Jarna
Originally by: TheBlueMonkey
dynamic agents that move around
Err, I don't wanna be hunting down my agents. An agent has an office, why would he be in Tash-Murkon of his office is in Safizon?
Give the damn agents TELEPHONES!
We live in a space age, with instant communications across the galaxy, yet I have to physically meander over to an agent's office to get a mission from him? What's up with that?
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Jarna
Amarr
Angelus Degeneris
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Posted - 2009.11.11 16:33:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Jarna on 11/11/2009 16:33:32
Originally by: Fifinella
Originally by: Jarna
Originally by: TheBlueMonkey
dynamic agents that move around
Err, I don't wanna be hunting down my agents. An agent has an office, why would he be in Tash-Murkon of his office is in Safizon?
Give the damn agents TELEPHONES!
We live in a space age, with instant communications across the galaxy, yet I have to physically meander over to an agent's office to get a mission from him? What's up with that?
Yeah, I've always wondered about that too.
I just chalked it up to they preferred to give mission assignments face to face since communications can be intercepted.
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Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari
Sane Industries Inc.
Initiative Mercenaries
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Posted - 2009.11.11 17:00:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Chribba
Don't be worried, tag along and enjoy the ride. It's only pixels
Sure, it's only 'pixels' until they change the sov ticker in Amarr. Now will it still be 'only' pixels?
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Wiley Peterson
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Posted - 2009.11.11 17:00:00 -
[23]
If you're talking about the lowered prereqs for certain skills, I disagree. Reducing timesinks isn't dumbing it down, although I understand the frustration from older players who had to spend months to get access to the same skills.
I agree that there is currently an over-emphasis on solo mission-running for newer players, but I don't see Dominion adding to that in any way.
I see a lot of older players reminisce about how EVE used to be more hardcore. I'm not sure what they're talking about. Maybe you could be more specific about how CCP is dumbing the game down?
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Nemiona
Minmatar
Fire Mandrill
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Posted - 2009.11.11 17:05:00 -
[24]
Ive been in eve since late 03.. ofc with regular breaks.. but each time Ive come back to eve it has got new content that have made it a better game and more fun to play.. I'm not too worried...
Ive played loads of other mmo's.. but I'm pretty sure I'm not returning to any of them...
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The future, according to some scientists, will be exactly like the past, only far more expensive.
John Sladek |
Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari
Sane Industries Inc.
Initiative Mercenaries
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Posted - 2009.11.11 17:10:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Wiley Peterson
If you're talking about the lowered prereqs for certain skills, I disagree. Reducing timesinks isn't dumbing it down, although I understand the frustration from older players who had to spend months to get access to the same skills.
The word 'dumbing it down' might not make much sense to you... But think of it as 'removing specialization' from the game.
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Wiley Peterson
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Posted - 2009.11.11 17:12:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Jarna
I have said this counteless times. Take 6 months to a year off and fix the damn game.
I'd be way more happy without the new content. I have barely seen the current content, let alone needing so much new stuff. (Though it's about time there is an SOV overhaul)
I agree with this. Content updates are nice, but I would give those up for a year if CCP focused on core issues like the crap UI, poor inventory management, and major bugs.
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Wiley Peterson
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Posted - 2009.11.11 17:19:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab
Originally by: Wiley Peterson
If you're talking about the lowered prereqs for certain skills, I disagree. Reducing timesinks isn't dumbing it down, although I understand the frustration from older players who had to spend months to get access to the same skills.
The word 'dumbing it down' might not make much sense to you... But think of it as 'removing specialization' from the game.
That's a bit of hyperbole. The handful of skill that have lowered prereqs are already used by most main characters in the game who are a two or three months old. Making exploration more accessible seems to be a good idea, especially if you think there is an over-emphasis on mission running. The only one I think is a mistake is bomb deployment.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.11.11 17:23:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Wiley Peterson
Originally by: Jarna
I have said this counteless times. Take 6 months to a year off and fix the damn game.
I'd be way more happy without the new content. I have barely seen the current content, let alone needing so much new stuff. (Though it's about time there is an SOV overhaul)
I agree with this. Content updates are nice, but I would give those up for a year if CCP focused on core issues like the crap UI, poor inventory management, and major bugs.
Yet when CCP did do a "big-fix" focused expansion, oh god the forum tears....
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DTMKnight
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Posted - 2009.11.11 18:08:00 -
[29]
As a newer player I have to disagree with this post. The largest problem facing CCP and EVE is the extreme learning curve for this game. In my search to recruit friends to EVE the single largest problem I face from those interested in a MMO is the learning curve of EVE.
I do agree that other fundamental programming problems with EVE should be fixed but an effort to make the game easier to play should not be ignored. I'm not at all for lowering the preregs of skills as I think it is at a very good place right now. Making it easier to understand which mods are suited for the types of weapons you are using would be very nice though.
If CCP released an expansion that only focused on long time players it would be the beginning of the end for EVE. Always look for new blood or you are bound to die. Especially with the Star Wars and Star Trek MMO's on the horizon.
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Jarna
Amarr
Angelus Degeneris
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Posted - 2009.11.11 18:33:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Wiley Peterson
Originally by: Jarna
I have said this counteless times. Take 6 months to a year off and fix the damn game.
I'd be way more happy without the new content. I have barely seen the current content, let alone needing so much new stuff. (Though it's about time there is an SOV overhaul)
I agree with this. Content updates are nice, but I would give those up for a year if CCP focused on core issues like the crap UI, poor inventory management, and major bugs.
Yet when CCP did do a "big-fix" focused expansion, oh god the forum tears....
I would cry too. An expansion is to expand the game not fix it.
What I'm saying is not make any expansions. Just have lots of client updates like we have between expansions.
But, for 6 months or so there will be absolutely no work on new stuff as far as coding goes.
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