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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
475
|
Posted - 2012.06.20 21:49:00 -
[151] - Quote
chatgris wrote:sYnc Vir wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Super Chair wrote:Obligatory CERBY is recruiting post. Come fight for the state. We accept all amarrian refugees willing to fly cormorants and drakes LOL are you offering them better WZ control levels? They're looking to make some iskies (and I don't blame them). Almost everyone I know has at lease 1 minnie alt farming your side. Surely you've heard some of the Amarrian tinfoil, W-BR is "letting" Minnies get to teir 5 so they can all fly titans and supers and swin in sexy sexy isk.
I wish I was lying, cause it would be such an awesome troll had we not been wardecced for it already.
That's a pretty good point: The difference in reward levels doesn't increase conflict, if anything it seems to decrease conflict as anyone (alts of enemies included) can just join the winning side and join in the cashing out. Giving rewards definitely helps conflict, because it gives people a reason to be in plexes. And you can earn ISK in plexes in a pvp ship instead of pveing your way through missions. Consequences to your main account not being able to dock is also a driver for conflict. But the more I've see of this tiered reward crap (and hey, I'm in the Minmatar Militia, I am raking in the LP on my main), the more I think it's a very bad idea. CCP should go back to the same reward level for all militias, or at the very least, not have a negative penalty so the losing side can still compete with high sec mission runners.
Well this is true to an extent. But I know I have allot of amarr lp built up that I would love to cash out at tier 5. Hence I am hoping my militia gets it in gear and starts moving toward that goal. The tier system is very much a driver from my perspective.
As far as docking being a motivator I moved out of the war zone and will never move back in in anything close to the way I used to be entrenched there. That is unless they remove the lock out rule. If ccp removes the lock out rule I will start putting plexing ships back in fw space. So really the lock out rule is not a motivator for me at all. It drove me off and I am pretty much out for good. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Shadow Adanza
Colonial Marines EVE Division Villore Accords
11
|
Posted - 2012.06.20 21:58:00 -
[152] - Quote
Super Chair wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Super Chair wrote:Obligatory CERBY is recruiting post. Come fight for the state. We accept all amarrian refugees willing to fly cormorants and drakes LOL are you offering them better WZ control levels? They're looking to make some iskies (and I don't blame them). Pretty much. We sit at tier 2 usually, but seeing as how gallente have 8 systems currently vulnerable (probably a few more going vuln soon) i'm sure we'll be hitting tier 3 again without a hitch. It's not like the gallente are trying to get their tiers up as most of them have already joined the minmatar militia and just farm caldari plexes and cash in on those tier 4/5 LP prices. So yeah, if you amarr are isk starved, CERBY (and the caldari militia as a whole) is recruiting. It's only a matter of time until this system leaves only 2 militias. :P I'm just a Caldari pilot fighting for the Gallente in Minmatar and Amarr ships. |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2560
|
Posted - 2012.06.20 22:08:00 -
[153] - Quote
Cearain wrote: Well this is true to an extent. But I know I have allot of amarr lp built up that I would love to cash out at tier 5. Hence I am hoping my militia gets it in gear and starts moving toward that goal. The tier system is very much a driver from my perspective.
That makes sense. And as we've discovered, you only need the high tier level for a brief window to capitalize on achieving that goal, as long as you're prepared beforehand. You don't have to be able to *maintain* a tier level to make achieving it profitable and worth putting effort towards. And when you do hit it (and I'm sure you will eventually) your items will be higher priced on the markets as well, making that cashout more lucrative than anything the minnies have been able to pull in terms is isk / LP. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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Malakai Asamov
Sefem Velox Swift Angels Alliance
11
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Posted - 2012.06.21 02:22:00 -
[154] - Quote
Muad 'dib wrote:If you cannot work out the lack of ballence you should not post as a CSM in this thread.
CCP Soundwave wrote:Why would I want to balance a fight? That's never really been the goal in EVE.......
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Har Harrison
Amarrian Retribution Amarr 7th Fleet
199
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Posted - 2012.06.21 02:27:00 -
[155] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Cearain wrote: Well this is true to an extent. But I know I have allot of amarr lp built up that I would love to cash out at tier 5. Hence I am hoping my militia gets it in gear and starts moving toward that goal. The tier system is very much a driver from my perspective.
That makes sense. And as we've discovered, you only need the high tier level for a brief window to capitalize on achieving that goal, as long as you're prepared beforehand. You don't have to be able to *maintain* a tier level to make achieving it profitable and worth putting effort towards. And when you do hit it (and I'm sure you will eventually) your items will be higher priced on the markets as well, making that cashout more lucrative than anything the minnies have been able to pull in terms is isk / LP. Define a shortwhile? A few hours. A day?
I can go to bed and see pretty much all upgrades that were put in place gone when I log back in the next day. With the number of systems you hold vs us, it means we fill up our ihubs and you guys empty it out and bump us back down in no time. We do it to a few of your systems and worst case, you drop from T4 to T3. And last night, it seems the minnies "fixed" that by further upgrading some systems to push up into the middle of T4 instead of sitting on the edge of T4/T3 FW - Inferno is better, but you need to fix the NPCs and fix the plex bugs CCP |
Har Harrison
Amarrian Retribution Amarr 7th Fleet
199
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 02:41:00 -
[156] - Quote
Malakai Asamov wrote:Muad 'dib wrote:If you cannot work out the lack of ballence you should not post as a CSM in this thread. CCP Soundwave wrote:Why would I want to balance a fight? That's never really been the goal in EVE....... Why do CCP balance ships then???
If Amarr were losing due to lack of numbers etc..., we wouldn't be complaining.
We are complaining because the current mechanics are making it hard for us to compete due to the mechanics depending on criteria which affects different people differently. Put simply, we require more numbers/better ships/higher SP to do something that a char in a frig can do in less than a week in the minmitar militia.
Let me give you a non FW example revolving around incursions (yes it is rediculous, but just want to show what we are dealing with)
e.g. A Legion fleet used to warp in after a pirate BS fleets in NCO incursion mission (vanguards) before the nerf. Alternatively, a 6 man gang would get pwned by a 10 or 11 man due to the extra DPS meaning they won the site. This is an example of what Soundwave said - balance should not be inherrent so as to drive conflict.
Now assume that Caldari characters took 25% extra damage and did 25% less just because their toon is Caldari. The other 3 races have an advantage over all Caldari. Yes the Caldari can partake in incursions, but it is hardly fair is it and is not what Soundwave was referring to.
People should stop posting out of context quotes and try and understand the issue the Amarr are objecting to!!! FW - Inferno is better, but you need to fix the NPCs and fix the plex bugs CCP |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2385
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 12:35:00 -
[157] - Quote
Har Harrison wrote:Malakai Asamov wrote:Muad 'dib wrote:If you cannot work out the lack of ballence you should not post as a CSM in this thread. CCP Soundwave wrote:Why would I want to balance a fight? That's never really been the goal in EVE....... Why do CCP balance ships then??? If Amarr were losing due to lack of numbers etc..., we wouldn't be complaining. We are complaining because the current mechanics are making it hard for us to compete due to the mechanics depending on criteria which affects different people differently. Put simply, we require more numbers/better ships/higher SP to do something that a char in a frig can do in less than a week in the minmitar militia. Let me give you a non FW example revolving around incursions (yes it is rediculous, but just want to show what we are dealing with) e.g. A Legion fleet used to warp in after a pirate BS fleets in NCO incursion mission (vanguards) before the nerf and win the site. Alternatively, a 6 man gang would get pwned by a 10 or 11 man due to the extra DPS meaning they won the site. This is an example of what Soundwave said - balance should not be inherrent so as to drive conflict. Now assume that Caldari characters took 25% extra damage and did 25% less just because their toon is Caldari. The other 3 races have an advantage over all Caldari. Yes the Caldari can partake in incursions, but it is hardly fair is it and is not what Soundwave was referring to. People should stop posting out of context quotes and try and understand the issue the Amarr are objecting to!!!
I'm hoping the poster who quoted Soundwave was doing it to illustrate the absurdity of that line of thinking - because lets face it, that quote has been comprehensively debunked and hurled to the rubbish tips of history already this week. The game needs competitive balance - competitive balance doesn't neccessarily lead to "fairness" because some people just happen to be better competitors than others. Clearly balancing the combat and conflict systems so they are competitive have always been a design goal in Eve Online - see ship balancing and various changes every aspect of sov and FW warfare.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Har Harrison
Amarrian Retribution Amarr 7th Fleet
201
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 12:39:00 -
[158] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:Har Harrison wrote:Malakai Asamov wrote:Muad 'dib wrote:If you cannot work out the lack of ballence you should not post as a CSM in this thread. CCP Soundwave wrote:Why would I want to balance a fight? That's never really been the goal in EVE....... Why do CCP balance ships then??? If Amarr were losing due to lack of numbers etc..., we wouldn't be complaining. We are complaining because the current mechanics are making it hard for us to compete due to the mechanics depending on criteria which affects different people differently. Put simply, we require more numbers/better ships/higher SP to do something that a char in a frig can do in less than a week in the minmitar militia. Let me give you a non FW example revolving around incursions (yes it is rediculous, but just want to show what we are dealing with) e.g. A Legion fleet used to warp in after a pirate BS fleets in NCO incursion mission (vanguards) before the nerf and win the site. Alternatively, a 6 man gang would get pwned by a 10 or 11 man due to the extra DPS meaning they won the site. This is an example of what Soundwave said - balance should not be inherrent so as to drive conflict. Now assume that Caldari characters took 25% extra damage and did 25% less just because their toon is Caldari. The other 3 races have an advantage over all Caldari. Yes the Caldari can partake in incursions, but it is hardly fair is it and is not what Soundwave was referring to. People should stop posting out of context quotes and try and understand the issue the Amarr are objecting to!!! I'm hoping the poster who quoted Soundwave was doing it to illustrate the absurdity of that line of thinking - because lets face it, that quote has been comprehensively debunked and hurled to the rubbish tips of history already this week. The game needs competitive balance - competitive balance doesn't neccessarily lead to "fairness" because some people just happen to be better competitors than others. Clearly balancing the combat and conflict systems so they are competitive have always been a design goal in Eve Online - see ship balancing and various changes every aspect of sov and FW warfare. One can only hope that you are right about this... However I'm just as inclined to believe it is a troll since this IS the eve forums... FW - Inferno is better, but you need to fix the NPCs and fix the plex bugs CCP |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
475
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 13:06:00 -
[159] - Quote
Har Harrison wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Cearain wrote: Well this is true to an extent. But I know I have allot of amarr lp built up that I would love to cash out at tier 5. Hence I am hoping my militia gets it in gear and starts moving toward that goal. The tier system is very much a driver from my perspective.
That makes sense. And as we've discovered, you only need the high tier level for a brief window to capitalize on achieving that goal, as long as you're prepared beforehand. You don't have to be able to *maintain* a tier level to make achieving it profitable and worth putting effort towards. And when you do hit it (and I'm sure you will eventually) your items will be higher priced on the markets as well, making that cashout more lucrative than anything the minnies have been able to pull in terms is isk / LP. Define a shortwhile? A few hours. A day? I can go to bed and see pretty much all upgrades that were put in place gone when I log back in the next day. With the number of systems you hold vs us, it means we fill up our ihubs and you guys empty it out and bump us back down in no time. We do it to a few of your systems and worst case, you drop from T4 to T3. And last night, it seems the minnies "fixed" that by further upgrading some systems to push up into the middle of T4 instead of sitting on the edge of T4/T3
Har
Unless you wanted to cash out at tier 2 and you were all set and ready to do it immediately, it was a bad idea to invest lp in those systems.
We need to make sure we understand the mechanics in this game - and why our current strategy is making our enemy some of the wealthiest people in all of eve - then we need to adjust our plans accordingly.
Again I am not saying we will be able to make a comeback, but we need to at least demonstrate that we are trying strategies that apply to this game instead of what we think sounds cool. Or how we would imagine/like it to be. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2562
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 14:17:00 -
[160] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:The game needs competitive balance - competitive balance doesn't neccessarily lead to "fairness" because some people just happen to be better competitors than others. Clearly balancing the combat and conflict systems so they are competitive have always been a design goal in Eve Online - see ship balancing and various changes every aspect of sov and FW warfare.
Good point. In this case, would you say the issues the Amarr are facing is the result of competitive imbalance, or simply not making the most of a set of rules that affect everyone the same? Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2562
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 14:23:00 -
[161] - Quote
Cearain wrote: Har
Unless you wanted to cash out at tier 2 and you were all set and ready to do it immediately, it was a bad idea to invest lp in those systems.
That was exactly what I was pointing out. LP should be saved until you own enough systems to upgrade them to the tier level required to cash out at the rate you want to cash out. The tier 5 spike only lasted a few hours. But the pilots that prepared ahead of time, saving their LP and stocking up an LP store station with the items they wanted to upgrade into Faction gear, were able to make the most of the opportunity.
Blindly upgrading a system without coordinating that upgrade with the rest of your militia is literally a waste of money. It will get taken away just as fast as you put it in. So work with your faction, work to take systems, when you're all ready pick a day and dump the LP into the upgrades as part of a cooperative effort. Hit the tier level you're aiming for, than cash out. This the way to maximize your profits from your LP, regardless of which faction you belong to. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
475
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 15:28:00 -
[162] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:The game needs competitive balance - competitive balance doesn't neccessarily lead to "fairness" because some people just happen to be better competitors than others. Clearly balancing the combat and conflict systems so they are competitive have always been a design goal in Eve Online - see ship balancing and various changes every aspect of sov and FW warfare. Good point. In this case, would you say the issues the Amarr are facing is the result of competitive imbalance, or simply not making the most of a set of rules that affect everyone the same?
Amarr has alway had the more difficult missions than minmatar. Yes I do know people who explicitly say they left amarr to run missions easier in other factions and likely many others who won't admit it have over the years. Why choose to fight for a faction where its harder to make isk? It should not be surprising then that the amarr have as far as I know, always had the fewest number of pilots.
They have also had some of the worst rats to deal with as far as plexing. So that has directly effected our ability to plex as effectively as minmatar.
Then there is the lore that paints us as religious fanatics, and the fact that amarr are ugly.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2402
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:01:00 -
[163] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:The game needs competitive balance - competitive balance doesn't neccessarily lead to "fairness" because some people just happen to be better competitors than others. Clearly balancing the combat and conflict systems so they are competitive have always been a design goal in Eve Online - see ship balancing and various changes every aspect of sov and FW warfare. Good point. In this case, would you say the issues the Amarr are facing is the result of competitive imbalance, or simply not making the most of a set of rules that affect everyone the same?
Bit of both truth be told.
I think its certain the case that the Amarr side has cause for complain on the NPC imbalance in complexes - but the solution to that is going to be engineering how the capture mechanics work (ie making it neccessary to kill all npcs for the timer to run down or something of that kind) just nerfing all so anyone can speed tank is a bit of a silly option. I think the game needs to encourage and give advantage to people putting properly fitted combat ships into plexes.
On the other hand, I think some Amarr players let themselves get convinced that CCP was going to reset the warzone with Inferno and it let them take the foot off the gas when they should have been flying their hearts out.
+ Some of the major Amarrian FW corporations are using pretty terrible strategic tactics even to this day. Fweddit (for example) could be achieving an awful lot more if weren't doing their risk averse hisec basing thing.
But to underline my point - the mechanics need to be competitively balanced by the developers and I have absolutely no time for the excuse "eve isn't fair" if its used to avoid bringing competive balance to critical game mechanics. Thats the equivent of me inviting you to play white at a chess-set where the knight and two pawns are missing from your side and shrugging and saying "chess isn't fair."
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
196
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:09:00 -
[164] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:...On the other hand, I think some Amarr players let themselves get convinced that CCP was going to reset the warzone with Inferno and it let them take the foot off the gas when they should have been flying their hearts out.... That is just it, there is no "other hand" .. CCP blessed Amarr with just the one while the Shakorites got the two
We tried, really tried, stemming the tide and making inroads for three years to no avail. We had some surges in the few months out of the year when we had absolute numbers superiority and when the Caldari task-force came over to showcase the broken standings mechanics. No matter what we did or much time we spent doing it, our months of work were dismantled in a matter of weeks due to the impossible task of guarding each and every plex against the single frigate ... in the end most Amarr plexers, of which there were not many to begin with, just moved on. I myself went PvP for instance, only plexing when there was a fight on the horizon or when I came across one of the old enemies (/me shakes fist at Sasawong *Grrrrrrrrrr* ).
Good post though.
All this talk about orbiting buttons and cashing out at tier2 (equal to double pre-'nerf Amarr' expansion rates I believe) is ridiculous to say the least when any plexing done by a gang can be countered/reversed by a single enemy frigate that is enjoying a near perpetual 75% discount in his store thanks to the mechanics.
@Hans: No one (Pronoun: No person; not a single person) asked for what FW received this time around. While is is true that there has been a strong desire for consequences/meaning/incentives over the years, it has always been asked for in conjunction with a balancing sweep .. hell, most of the "gimme" crowd played second fiddle to "Bring Balance" crowd up until last summer or so .. fits nicely with when CCP starting listening to players again so just rotten luck I reckon The next 'iteration' will make matters worse, a lot worse. CCP wants to fix a doping problem by allowing everyone to use doping which will inevitably ruin the game just as it does in reality .. at least they have chosen a competent dev (GÖÑ Ytterbium) to handle the data gathering so maybe (slim, but still hope) they'll find something else to sort things until they can get a long term solution in place.
Note: The "Kill Everything!" solution should not be THE solution, but a place holder for a proper redesign of plexes and associated rats in their entirety. Orbiting a timer that is broken half the time was never fun, but replacing it with what is essentially an EHP grind is worse .. making one dependant on the other is just sacrilegious .. unless it is temporary.
PS: Sorry can't resist. "I told you so". Results were predicted by your truly prior to launch, everything from the Caldari re-surgence to the "lone frigs/LP whores everywhere" .. logic and common sense are powerful tools indeed .. now if only I could bottle it and export it to Iceland
PPS: Let me restate my desire for CCP to hire/consult someone with an understanding of human nature, be it a shrink, sociologist or similar. Eve is unique in its scope, a scope that has obviously grown beyond CCP models of behavioural science judging by the gross miscalculations they have pulled the past few years (Biggest Example: NeX). |
Shylari Avada
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
39
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Posted - 2012.06.21 23:43:00 -
[165] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:+ Some of the major Amarrian FW corporations are using pretty terrible strategic tactics even to this day. Fweddit (for example) could be achieving an awful lot more if weren't doing their risk averse hisec basing thing.
I'm glad you are so concerned about what we are doing- I imagine we have a much greater view and appreciation for our corp mates- as we have succeeded in doing something you guys have all failed at, in every Militia: and that is bringing new players into Faction Warfare or even Low Sec to begin with. Last time I looked, we had 34 alts in Fweddit and 433 people playing on their mains. Do they have more skillpoints than everyone else in the militia? Nope.
What they do have; is heart, and in this situation that is more than enough.
If you think this is about Killboard Stats Jade; you have not a single clue about the culture of my corp, or what we are trying to accomplish. Just like all your other observations you are simply incapable of realizing that not everyone wants to play the way you do; and running a 500 man corporation is probably more involved and a much large undertaking than having 4-5 corp mates show up in mixed militia fleets looking for fights.
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Major Killz
State Protectorate Caldari State
13
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Posted - 2012.06.22 00:11:00 -
[166] - Quote
behavioural pseudo scientific bullsh!t. You may be able to deduce some random conclusion empirically. The information compiled may be measurable. However, I doubt the results can be replicated (the human state and mind can be erratic). To suggest CCP should rely on that sh!t is ridiculous.
Trial and error. Learn from it and move on. It's going to take sometime to before CCP gets faction warfare just right or never does. I'm not even sure there should be PLEX'ing and territorial what not. Limit that territorial sh!t to missions and Eve back story/RP.
Free war dec is free war dec. |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2488
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Posted - 2012.06.22 01:24:00 -
[167] - Quote
Shylari Avada wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:+ Some of the major Amarrian FW corporations are using pretty terrible strategic tactics even to this day. Fweddit (for example) could be achieving an awful lot more if weren't doing their risk averse hisec basing thing.
I'm glad you are so concerned about what we are doing- I imagine we have a much greater view and appreciation for our corp mates- as we have succeeded in doing something you guys have all failed at, in every Militia: and that is bringing new players into Faction Warfare or even Low Sec to begin with. Last time I looked, we had 34 alts in Fweddit and 433 people playing on their mains. Do they have more skillpoints than everyone else in the militia? Nope. What they do have; is heart, and in this situation that is more than enough. If you think this is about Killboard Stats Jade; you have not a single clue about the culture of my corp, or what we are trying to accomplish. Just like all your other observations you are simply incapable of realizing that not everyone wants to play the way you do; and running a 500 man corporation is probably more involved and a much large undertaking than having 4-5 corp mates show up in mixed militia fleets looking for fights.
You seem to have posted some kind of a form letter that had precisely nothing to do with what I said.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Shylari Avada
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
39
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Posted - 2012.06.22 01:51:00 -
[168] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:You seem to have posted some kind of a form letter that had precisely nothing to do with what I said.
I was just alluding to the simple fact that our average in-house roaming fleet- is larger than your alliance.
Managing it is probably more complex than you would know, and this is before I take into consideration how terrible you are at this game.
Get hazed nerd.
-X.
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Har Harrison
Amarrian Retribution Amarr 7th Fleet
209
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Posted - 2012.06.22 02:32:00 -
[169] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Cearain wrote: Har
Unless you wanted to cash out at tier 2 and you were all set and ready to do it immediately, it was a bad idea to invest lp in those systems.
That was exactly what I was pointing out. LP should be saved until you own enough systems to upgrade them to the tier level required to cash out at the rate you want to cash out. The tier 5 spike only lasted a few hours. But the pilots that prepared ahead of time, saving their LP and stocking up an LP store station with the items they wanted to upgrade into Faction gear, were able to make the most of the opportunity. Blindly upgrading a system without coordinating that upgrade with the rest of your militia is literally a waste of money. It will get taken away just as fast as you put it in. So work with your faction, work to take systems, when you're all ready pick a day and dump the LP into the upgrades as part of a cooperative effort. Hit the tier level you're aiming for, than cash out. This the way to maximize your profits from your LP, regardless of which faction you belong to. I haven't converted any LP yet for this very reason. My point being that it is NOT practical for me to do so at the current time whilst the minmitar can pretty much do it on a whim!!! Why won't CCP fix the ongoing FW issues? NPC balance, timer bugs etc??? |
Har Harrison
Amarrian Retribution Amarr 7th Fleet
209
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 02:34:00 -
[170] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:The game needs competitive balance - competitive balance doesn't neccessarily lead to "fairness" because some people just happen to be better competitors than others. Clearly balancing the combat and conflict systems so they are competitive have always been a design goal in Eve Online - see ship balancing and various changes every aspect of sov and FW warfare. Good point. In this case, would you say the issues the Amarr are facing is the result of competitive imbalance, or simply not making the most of a set of rules that affect everyone the same? I am surprised you even have to ask that after all the posting we have been doing. The rules DO NOT EFFECT everyone the same since the Amarr cannot speed tank major plexes in frigs with 1 week old chars... How many more times do we need to argue this case? We aren't asking for it to be made EASIER for us, just that everyone else has the SAME difficulty that we do!!! Why won't CCP fix the ongoing FW issues? NPC balance, timer bugs etc??? |
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Har Harrison
Amarrian Retribution Amarr 7th Fleet
209
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Posted - 2012.06.22 02:54:00 -
[171] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:+ Some of the major Amarrian FW corporations are using pretty terrible strategic tactics even to this day. Fweddit (for example) could be achieving an awful lot more if weren't doing their risk averse hisec basing thing.
To focus on Fweddit when saying the Amarr militia needs to do better is a little unfair I think.
Do they need to do better??? Of course they do. So do 7th fleet. So do Wolfbrigade, PIE, The Imperial Fedaykin and any number of other established corps/alliances in the Amarr militia. There isn't one corp/alliance in EvE that couldn't do what they do better to some degree - be it how they PvP, how they do their logistics or how they recruit or some other thing. One could even say the same thing about real life.
The issue Jade alludes to is a temporary one because they have a lot of new players who are new to the game and/or FW and learning. I was on comms with them the other night and the FC was explaining stuff and at one point he commented he had FORGOTTEN what it was like to not know some of those things because it was so long ago. As a corp and alliance they are still building and learning. I would be worried for what happens when they learn the mechanics better and have higher SP - Amarr have shown over and over again how we can punch above our weight and I am sure Fweddit will do the same.
The issue that needs to be addressed here so that Hans can take it up with CCP is "Is FW balanced from a mechanics point of view, such that any imbalance in the war is due to the players, not an outcome of the mechanics?" The argument is strongly being made by Amarr AND Minmitar players that the answer is "No, it is not". Why won't CCP fix the ongoing FW issues? NPC balance, timer bugs etc??? |
Mra Rednu
Black Watch Guard
36
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 08:05:00 -
[172] - Quote
The issue has been brought to the attention of CCP right from the first week of FW way back when it was obvious that on one side a t1 frigate can run plex's but the other side needed to use more resources to run them, basically saying that Amarr needed twice the numbers to do the same amount of plexing, not a lot of balance there ?
Lets not kid anyone here, CCP knew about this inbalance from day 1 and have not had any interest in putting it right, now it seems a few are taking an interest in it but they should of fixed this issue before moving ahead with any other changes, I wouldn't go as far as a rollback but there are scores of gunless frigates taking all size plex's and bombers running missions where we can't do either, risk/reward has been completely forgotten about in this case as there is no risk for them as they just run.
But also enough with the negative vibes, Amarr militia is far from finished plus we got Fweedit on board which I am loving, good guys on the whole who are learning very fast, we just need to be allowed to fight with some sort of balanced playing field. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
475
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 16:13:00 -
[173] - Quote
Har Harrison wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Cearain wrote: Har
Unless you wanted to cash out at tier 2 and you were all set and ready to do it immediately, it was a bad idea to invest lp in those systems.
That was exactly what I was pointing out. LP should be saved until you own enough systems to upgrade them to the tier level required to cash out at the rate you want to cash out. The tier 5 spike only lasted a few hours. But the pilots that prepared ahead of time, saving their LP and stocking up an LP store station with the items they wanted to upgrade into Faction gear, were able to make the most of the opportunity. Blindly upgrading a system without coordinating that upgrade with the rest of your militia is literally a waste of money. It will get taken away just as fast as you put it in. So work with your faction, work to take systems, when you're all ready pick a day and dump the LP into the upgrades as part of a cooperative effort. Hit the tier level you're aiming for, than cash out. This the way to maximize your profits from your LP, regardless of which faction you belong to. I haven't converted any LP yet for this very reason. My point being that it is NOT practical for me to do so at the current time whilst the minmitar can pretty much do it on a whim!!!
It appears someone from goons upgraded amarr to tier 2. Why did they bother blowing stuff up for amarr lp at all - let alone enough to upgrade our tier?
-edit I was originally afraid people in our own militia were stupid enough to do that. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Har Harrison
Amarrian Retribution Amarr 7th Fleet
209
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 16:15:00 -
[174] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Har Harrison wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Cearain wrote: Har
Unless you wanted to cash out at tier 2 and you were all set and ready to do it immediately, it was a bad idea to invest lp in those systems.
That was exactly what I was pointing out. LP should be saved until you own enough systems to upgrade them to the tier level required to cash out at the rate you want to cash out. The tier 5 spike only lasted a few hours. But the pilots that prepared ahead of time, saving their LP and stocking up an LP store station with the items they wanted to upgrade into Faction gear, were able to make the most of the opportunity. Blindly upgrading a system without coordinating that upgrade with the rest of your militia is literally a waste of money. It will get taken away just as fast as you put it in. So work with your faction, work to take systems, when you're all ready pick a day and dump the LP into the upgrades as part of a cooperative effort. Hit the tier level you're aiming for, than cash out. This the way to maximize your profits from your LP, regardless of which faction you belong to. I haven't converted any LP yet for this very reason. My point being that it is NOT practical for me to do so at the current time whilst the minmitar can pretty much do it on a whim!!! It appears someone from goons upgraded amarr to tier 2. Why did they bother blowing stuff up for amarr lp at all - let alone enough to upgrade our tier? Because they could and for some lulz. They also wanted to see what would happen without them propping it up. Why won't CCP fix the ongoing FW issues? NPC balance, timer bugs etc??? |
Jones Bones
Imperial Outlaws
110
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 16:21:00 -
[175] - Quote
I haven't lost a single fleet fight to Minnies since I joined.
I'll let them have the LP. I'll take the holding the pilot seat of the **** train. |
Salicaz
Wolfsbrigade Lost Obsession
43
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 16:22:00 -
[176] - Quote
Har Harrison wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:The game needs competitive balance - competitive balance doesn't neccessarily lead to "fairness" because some people just happen to be better competitors than others. Clearly balancing the combat and conflict systems so they are competitive have always been a design goal in Eve Online - see ship balancing and various changes every aspect of sov and FW warfare. Good point. In this case, would you say the issues the Amarr are facing is the result of competitive imbalance, or simply not making the most of a set of rules that affect everyone the same? I am surprised you even have to ask that after all the posting we have been doing. The rules DO NOT EFFECT everyone the same since the Amarr cannot speed tank major plexes in frigs with 1 week old chars... How many more times do we need to argue this case? We aren't asking for it to be made EASIER for us, just that everyone else has the SAME difficulty that we do!!!
I admire you Har for banging this drum but I'm afraid Hans is a biased **** and CCP don't give a ****. |
Duke Dantez
T.R.I.A.D Defiant Legacy
19
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:33:00 -
[177] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
All this talk about orbiting buttons and cashing out at tier2 (equal to double pre-'nerf Amarr' expansion rates I believe) is ridiculous to say the least when any plexing done by a gang can be countered/reversed by a single enemy frigate that is enjoying a near perpetual 75% discount in his store thanks to the mechanics.
Ha! Thanks to game mechanics??? We enjoy the 75% discount because of the hard work we put into plexing before the patch. Not because of game mechanics. You sound so pathetic when you say stuff like this. You honestly think it is the game mechanics fault for why you guys lost so many systems before the patch? ....You are the problem with the old guard Amarr.
While the Amarr chose to wait to the to the last minute, The Minmatar chose to plex non-stop for a solid 2 months. Both sides knew what the patch was bringing and yet you guys chose the wrong stratagy and now blame it on the mechanics. Pathetic.
It has been almost a month since the patch came out and today the amarr have more systems than they did on patch day. You are slowly crawling back despite what you call "hideously imbalanced" game mechanics. You gain a few systems and you lose a few systems but over the time span of a month you have a net gain of systems.
I agree that the NPC's need a bit more balancing. I agree that bugs need to be fixed. But these are not the excuses you are looking for to explain your tier 1 position. Honestly they are very minor problems and when they are fixed what will be your excuse then? |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2595
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:06:00 -
[178] - Quote
Har Harrison wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:The game needs competitive balance - competitive balance doesn't neccessarily lead to "fairness" because some people just happen to be better competitors than others. Clearly balancing the combat and conflict systems so they are competitive have always been a design goal in Eve Online - see ship balancing and various changes every aspect of sov and FW warfare. Good point. In this case, would you say the issues the Amarr are facing is the result of competitive imbalance, or simply not making the most of a set of rules that affect everyone the same? I am surprised you even have to ask that after all the posting we have been doing. The rules DO NOT EFFECT everyone the same since the Amarr cannot speed tank major plexes in frigs with 1 week old chars... How many more times do we need to argue this case? We aren't asking for it to be made EASIER for us, just that everyone else has the SAME difficulty that we do!!!
Har, I was asking Jade that question, wanting to know Jade's personal perspective. It wasn't a generalized inquiry to everyone in the thread that responded.
I *completely* agree with you that the NPC imbalance is an issue, I can't wait for the day when NO faction can speed tank plexes with day old alts.
Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
|
Jones Bones
Imperial Outlaws
110
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:07:00 -
[179] - Quote
Ex-Amarr are seriously the biggest group of crybabies. Why are you posting on a forum that no longer concerns you? Go post on the RP forums baddies. |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
200
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 21:46:00 -
[180] - Quote
Mra Rednu wrote:The issue has been brought to the attention of CCP right from the first week of FW way back when it was obvious that on one side a t1 frigate can run plex's but the other side needed to use more resources to run them, basically saying that Amarr needed twice the numbers to do the same amount of plexing, not a lot of balance there ?
Lets not kid anyone here, CCP knew about this inbalance from day 1 and have not had any interest in putting it right, now it seems a few are taking an interest in it but they should of fixed this issue before moving ahead with any other changes, I wouldn't go as far as a rollback but there are scores of gunless frigates taking all size plex's and bombers running missions where we can't do either, risk/reward has been completely forgotten about in this case as there is no risk for them as they just run.
But also enough with the negative vibes, Amarr militia is far from finished plus we got Fweedit on board which I am loving, good guys on the whole who are learning very fast, we just need to be allowed to fight with some sort of balanced playing field. Quoted for truth and posterity. |
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