EVE Search - Tritanium Bank

All Channels

Market Discussions

Tritanium Bank

» Click here to find additional results for this topic using Google

Monitor this thread via RSS [?]

Pages: [1] 2 :: one page
Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
Liberty Eternal	Posted - 2009.11.19 03:23:00 - [1] Edited by: Liberty Eternal on 19/11/2009 03:30:38 Here is an idea that occured to me concerning the failure of Eve's banking sector. Form a bank with a large tritanium stock - say 10 billion units - and then try to grow that stock as much as possible. Not in isk, but in trit. Most of a manufacturers costs centre around a few essential materials - tritanium being the most obvious. If someone wants to build 20 battleships and 40% of the cost is in tritanium, the tritanium bank will lend them, say, 400 million units of tritanium. In return, the customer will return, say, 450 million units of tritanium a month later. Miners and industrial corporations with too much tritanium - or traders who buy up tritanium for the purpose - can deposit it securely in the tritanium bank. They deposit 1 billion tritanium units with us, then three months later we pay them back, say, 1.2 billion units. We get the deposit, securely place it in our holding corporation, who wait for instruction as to who they should lend it to. The bank can register the cash value of the tritanium at the time of deposit and make an 'isk substitute' clause - in the event of massive market changes, repayment can be made in isk at a higher rate of return than in tritanium. Example - someone borrows 1 billion trit and one month later they are to pay back 1.2 billion trit, which is 20% trit interest. They pay cash instead, in which case we register the isk value of the loan and they pay 30% cash instead. This protects customer and bank from speculation. Tritanium can be deposited into an investor controlled corporation with a large number of shareholders - say 30 or 40 of MDs and manufacturing's leading figures. In this way, it is almost completely guaranteed from fraud. The bank will make a profit by occasional strategic isk sell-offs when the market is high. When the market is low, the bank will simply accumulate tritanium. Such an operation will also establish a real futures market, and with secure holding facilities, will provide the foundation for a banking/financial sector in EVE. Also, think of the strategic capabilities such a bank will have - speculation and investment on a grand scale. It will also act as a buffer - people who want to hold on to tritanium on the hope that the market will rise can deposit it in the secure tritanium bank which will be fraud-free. They can then take it out a month later when they wish to sell or use it, knowing they will have x% more material. There will be many details to work out, but this idea seems fundamentally sound. It can be extended to many different minerals and commodities, allowing banking services to be offered that tailor to a variety of markets and industries. I don't have the isk to form such a bank, and we would also need several dozen shareholders to minimise fraud by voting processes - the more the better really. So who would be in? We need to do 3 things to make this work i) Form a secure holding corporation with around 20 or more respected shareholders so the stockpile can be held fraud-free [releases of material would require majority votes] ii) Acquire the 20 billion or so isk needed to get the stock started iii) Convince the manufacturers and industrialists that this idea is not crazy, and that their manufacuring can get a huge boost against the competition if they borrow materials from us today (this will allow them to build more with less) and make a repayment after their manufacturing is complete and they have made their sales. We would also have to convince depositors/speculators that investing trit stockpiles in the bank can work. Over time, we could prove this concept.
Liberty Eternal	Posted - 2009.11.19 03:31:00 - [2] Reserved for further comments
Block Ukx Forge Laboratories	Posted - 2009.11.19 03:45:00 - [3] It's called BSAC. EVE's largest mineral "bank". BSAC General Website BSAC Exchange BSAC Mineral Market Manipulation (MinMa) Information Desk
Liberty Eternal	Posted - 2009.11.19 03:47:00 - [4] Edited by: Liberty Eternal on 19/11/2009 03:49:38 Are you holding minerals or just tying bonds to their performance? Are the bonds and minerals held securely by a corporation designed to be as fraud-proof as possible? Are you trying to make isk or to grow the stock of minerals as much as possible? I don't think you are doing the same thing that I am proposing here. Edit: it looks like you are just engaged in speculation. This is a proposal for a Bank.
SencneS Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks	Posted - 2009.11.19 03:55:00 - [5] Damn Block beat me to it However, Welcome to 30 months ago While BSA is the biggest "commodity bank" with minerals what you're proposing is using Minerals in replacement of ISK. That's a dangerous slop you're on and would suffer from market crashes and rushes too easily. In your example you say "Someone borrows 1b trit, one month later they pay back 1.2b for a 20% growth." The issue is while you're inventory has expanded, you better hope Trit hasn't decreased by 20% in value. Think about it, Instead of issuing 3B ISK and getting 3.6B ISK back, you're issuing 1B units of something worth 3B ISK. If the market crashes they could pay back 1.2B units of something only worth 2.8B ISK on the market. Congrats you just lost ~7% NAV.. Amarr for Life
Block Ukx Forge Laboratories	Posted - 2009.11.19 03:55:00 - [6] Originally by: Liberty Eternal Are you holding minerals or just tying bonds to their performance? BSAC holds around 400 B in minerals. Originally by: Liberty Eternal Are the bonds and minerals held securely by a corporation designed to be as fraud-proof as possible? About 30-40 B in assets/loan held in a shared corporation. The remaining is held as minerals under my sole control. Originally by: Liberty Eternal Are you trying to make isk or to grow the stock of minerals as much as possible? Goal is to grow the mineral stock. Originally by: Liberty Eternal I don't think you are doing the same thing that I am proposing here. Aside from loans, it sounds alot like BSAC. BSAC Mineral Market Manipulation (MinMa) Information Desk
Tiberizzle	Posted - 2009.11.19 04:10:00 - [7] [scam]
SetrakDark Caldari DarkCorp Technology and Finance	Posted - 2009.11.19 04:10:00 - [8] Can you even lock minerals down with corp votes? Regardless, this idea has too many holes to be worth considering in detail.
Phoebe Halliwel	Posted - 2009.11.19 04:18:00 - [9] Originally by: SencneS That's a dangerous slop you're on and would suffer from market crashes and rushes too easily. In your example you say "Someone borrows 1b trit, one month later they pay back 1.2b for a 20% growth." The issue is while you're inventory has expanded, you better hope Trit hasn't decreased by 20% in value. Think about it, Instead of issuing 3B ISK and getting 3.6B ISK back, you're issuing 1B units of something worth 3B ISK. If the market crashes they could pay back 1.2B units of something only worth 2.8B ISK on the market. Congrats you just lost ~7% NAV.. That's assuming people take a 1bil trit loan then cease production/sales. Are you still having issues with stock valuation? I think that was a worthwhile discussion in it's own right, mebe needs a separate thread so ppl can discuss further (haiku optional).
SencneS Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks	Posted - 2009.11.19 04:26:00 - [10] Originally by: Phoebe Halliwel Originally by: SencneS That's a dangerous slop you're on and would suffer from market crashes and rushes too easily. In your example you say "Someone borrows 1b trit, one month later they pay back 1.2b for a 20% growth." The issue is while you're inventory has expanded, you better hope Trit hasn't decreased by 20% in value. Think about it, Instead of issuing 3B ISK and getting 3.6B ISK back, you're issuing 1B units of something worth 3B ISK. If the market crashes they could pay back 1.2B units of something only worth 2.8B ISK on the market. Congrats you just lost ~7% NAV.. That's assuming people take a 1bil trit loan then cease production/sales. Are you still having issues with stock valuation? I think that was a worthwhile discussion in it's own right, mebe needs a separate thread so ppl can discuss further (haiku optional). I never had an issue with Stock valuation You seem to think I did when you where actually re-wording what I was saying in the first place. anyway back to OP..... Unless I miss read the OP, it sounded like he would issue 1B units of trit with the a 20% return for 1.2B units of trit. No matter which way you look at it, if 1.2B units of trit issued one month later is worth less then 1B units of trit a month before he HAS lost NAV. Now he would have lost "more" if he just held onto the 1B units of trit for a month, I'm not arguing that he wouldn't lose value, what I am saying is that using a volatile commodity like Tritanium as a replacement for ISK is dangerous. Amarr for Life
Liberty Eternal	Posted - 2009.11.19 04:38:00 - [11] Edited by: Liberty Eternal on 19/11/2009 04:44:41 The main point is to form a bank that is immune to scams and frauds. A bank based on isk can't do that. So a fraud-proof bank HAS to be based on something else. Sencnes, the banks objective is not to make isk, but to increase the stockpile of tritanium. When trit prices fell, the bank would just carry on, lending out trit and accepting trit deposits. Then when prices rose, it might strategically sell-off some of its surplus. The initial investment may go down to begin with, but the reason for being of a commodity bank would be to increase the stock of its chosen commodity, by accepting deposits and making loans in the form of its commodity. The moment the bank is formed, the isk is essentially gone. It leads to valuable questions; what will people pay to borrow trit? Can a bank be run on a commodity rather than isk? Gold was just a pretty metal until someone started using it as a medium of value. Also, people can invest deposits and loan trit based on speculation - how much will the bank attract from this futures trade? And what kind of an influence could such a bank have on such a major market? Also, with a succesful ability to develop its trit stockpile, the bank would have a secure value and a credit-rating second-to-none; it would have little difficulty maintaining its credibility and capitalisation value because of its security (its board handles not a single isk) and its assets (a massive, guaranteed pile of trit). It will also have valuable customers. People have a secure way to store their isk [in their wallets]. But there is no way to secure a deposit of isk and put it into the hands of a third party - the moment isk leaves your wallet, it is at risk. But value can be traded much more securely in the form of a commodity - and you can pretty much take any commodity in the market and make a bank out of it, using a variety of different models. [note that I am not saying you can make a currency out of it - just saying that you can take deposits of it then lend them out, like-for-like] All that is needed is for people who can think outside the box, who realise the economy in EVE is completely different to the real World, and who can offer the holy grail of security + chance of return. At the very least, this would be a method of generating tritanium by using tritanium.
Phoebe Halliwel	Posted - 2009.11.19 04:58:00 - [12] Originally by: SencneS Originally by: Phoebe Halliwel Rabble I never had an issue with Stock valuation You seem to think I did when you where actually re-wording what I was saying in the first place. anyway back to OP..... Unless I miss read the OP, it sounded like he would issue 1B units of trit with the a 20% return for 1.2B units of trit. No matter which way you look at it, if 1.2B units of trit issued one month later is worth less then 1B units of trit a month before he HAS lost NAV. Now he would have lost "more" if he just held onto the 1B units of trit for a month, I'm not arguing that he wouldn't lose value, what I am saying is that using a volatile commodity like Tritanium as a replacement for ISK is dangerous. OK, I was in producer mode there perhaps. I read it as a loan of 1bil worth of trit right now, funds to be repaid in a month at a fixed rate regardless of market fluctuations. In which case, if you can turn it over in a production cycle in 1-2 days for 5-10% profit, then recycyle that back into further production cycles, you could be reasonably confident. Market drops/stealth nerfs/other issues would always be a risk on a production venture; it's the timescales that count, and what you are doing with the stock. If you're talking about buying materials purely to speculate on price fluctuations, people do this already, loan or not. Yes, it's risky, but can be succesful with the correct market conditions.
Protheroe	Posted - 2009.11.19 05:24:00 - [13] How would the mineral stock of this bank be secured? Shareholders can vote to replace a CEO, but until that happens, the CEO has complete power to empty the hangars. As Setrak suggests, there's no voting mechanism to lock down assets other than BPOs, so the holding corporation's CEO could only be removed after a theft had already taken place. How would mineral loans be collateralized against default?
Krathos Morpheus Legion Infernal	Posted - 2009.11.19 05:27:00 - [14] I fail to see some things. How stealing trit is different to stealing isk? How is this scam and fraud proof? I see people borrowing trit when it's price is high and depositing when it is low. How are you going to secure that you have enough people borrowing to match the deposits? _+_ "It is the unofficial force ù the Jita irregulars. " EVEwatch Sidebar soon
Liberty Eternal	Posted - 2009.11.19 05:36:00 - [15] Edited by: Liberty Eternal on 19/11/2009 05:40:03 Originally by: Protheroe How would the mineral stock of this bank be secured? Shareholders can vote to replace a CEO, but until that happens, the CEO has complete power to empty the hangars. As Setrak suggests, there's no voting mechanism to lock down assets other than BPOs, so the holding corporation's CEO could only be removed after a theft had already taken place. How would mineral loans be collateralized against default? Ok I didn't know that, so we just need to invent another method of security. Another method of security exists - placing all the assets into the hands of the investors, in proportion to their investment. There would be 5 types of personnel in the bank's structure 1) Customers 2) Depositors 3) Investors 4) Holders 5) Brokers The first 3 are obvious - customers borrow trit. Depositors deposit trit. Investors pay the intial money. Holders will hold the tritanium - they are trusted figures who will be paid a small salary as compensation. They will not touch any isk however. Brokers will run the bank, they will not touch any stock or isk. Example - ten billion units of tritanium are purchased by investors. Ten trusted holders take a billion tritanium each - preferably these holders will be the investors themselves. The broker/s make contracts, recruit customers and sign deals with them. They then contact a holder who releases the stock on contract to the customer. Because this is tritanium, stock movements will be generally pre-planned for production schedules. When the borrower repays, he does not repay to the broker but to the holder (who will be an investor/depositor). In this way, all the contracts will go through a third party. It also means that anyone can get involved in the bank and fulfill different roles - which is what we need if the banking sector is to expand over EVE. Once a month, all interested parties can get together, take account of stocks, loans and assets, and re-divide the stock and make personnel adjustments, investment decisions etc as they see fit. We can't stop borrowers from stealing trit or scamming - there is no gurantee. What is needed is a mechanism to stop the bank from being robbed by its chief executive.
Mme Pinkerton Caldari	Posted - 2009.11.19 09:27:00 - [16] Originally by: Liberty Eternal We can't stop borrowers from stealing trit or scamming - there is no gurantee. What is needed is a mechanism to stop the bank from being robbed by its chief executive. you could also create a "Bank of ISK" that sells isk (to buy tritanium) when isk is high and buys isk with tritanium when isk is low. no need to go all crazy about a bank of tritanium - what you're describing looks like a PP-style trading operation to me and certainly is nothing new. As for distributed tellering/asset holding - no new idea, either; has been practiced within EBANK to a certain degree (probably successfully, as Ricdics could not run with all the bank's isk); obligatory Hexxx thread with more thoughts on the topic " Credit is the economic judgement on the morality of a man. "
InUrJita CheckinUrPrice	Posted - 2009.11.19 11:20:00 - [17] Why on earth would you want to use a high volume commodity that has been trending down as a store of value or medium of exchange when you've already got perfectly liquid isk? Especially when the buying power of isk has been increasing for months. If you run bonds as mineral for mineral +interest, you'll almost certainly lose value unless trends reverse themselves. If you value everything in isk to protect yourself from falling trit prices, there's no advantage to using trit over isk, and the significant disadvantage of having to haul massive loads of it around. If you want to do something like this, use a mineral that has been holding steady or trending up against isk so that you aren't losing cash coming and going.
Krathos Morpheus Legion Infernal	Posted - 2009.11.19 12:06:00 - [18] Originally by: Liberty Eternal Holders will hold the tritanium - they are trusted figures who will be paid a small salary as compensation. They will not touch any isk however. The same as eBank. You end up trusting someone with your money and trust is the only way for this to work. What's the difference on stealing isk or stealing trit again? Quote: preferably these holders will be the investors themselves. Ok, if the holders are the investors they can't rob themselves, until they have depositor's trit (what is what they are going to steal anyway, robbing themselves has no sense). They will hold other people's money, how is holding their own money in addition to that going to help to avoid scams? But now the price of trit becomes more important, since investors are there for the money, and I see no reason for them to invest because they will lose money, because... Quote: We can't stop borrowers from stealing trit or scamming That loses will be paid by investors (in adition to any other investor stealing) and everybody will work against the bank. When the trit is cheap or raising you will have more depositors than borrowers, losing money because you are paying more than you gain. When trit is up and falling people will borrow and retire the trit, so you lose money because other people profit for the trend and not you. The ultimate dividend that investors receive is valued at isks. If investors want to profit on trit they are better buying for themselves. _+_ "It is the unofficial force ù the Jita irregulars. " EVEwatch Sidebar soon
Selene D'Celeste Caldari The D'Celeste Trading Company ISK Six	Posted - 2009.11.19 13:53:00 - [19] Before you hammer yourselves too much on security, there is only a single method of securing in-game assets by a group provided by CCP, and that is the BPO lockdown. If you're not basing your methods on that -and- you're aiming for security, you're doing it wrong.
Cheeba Don Fusion Enterprises Ltd Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.11.19 14:31:00 - [20] Originally by: Selene D'Celeste Before you hammer yourselves too much on security, there is only a single method of securing in-game assets by a group provided by CCP, and that is the BPO lockdown. If you're not basing your methods on that -and- you're aiming for security, you're doing it wrong. This. There is little security in this game. Use what they give you! --------- oOk!
SetrakDark Caldari DarkCorp Technology and Finance	Posted - 2009.11.19 14:46:00 - [21] Originally by: Selene D'Celeste Before you hammer yourselves too much on security, there is only a single method of securing in-game assets by a group provided by CCP, and that is the BPO lockdown. If you're not basing your methods on that -and- you're aiming for security, you're doing it wrong. yup yup
Liberty Eternal	Posted - 2009.11.19 15:09:00 - [22] Yes true
Mortagnan	Posted - 2009.11.19 15:40:00 - [23] The idea of a central bank is highly appealing and I think has alot of merit. Basing it off of minerals takes it in a different direction that may be feasible, but undesirable from a security standpoint. As mentioned above, the only way to secure assets is to lockdown a BPO. I don't believe investors are needed as its more of a Trust format with funds coming from depositors. There is no need to make profit from this entity, I view it more as a public service that will act as a social investment to improve the market community. It is by no means my intent to hijack this thread, but I would be willing to start the actual corporation with an alt of mine. Anyone interested in being on the board can contact me and we can start issuing some shares. IMPORTANT I'm not asking for a dime and I never will. This is simply something I want to see exist. I'll even step down as CEO after we get set up if the Board would like someone more experienced to take over. Apologies to the OP for throwing in my soapbox :)
Liberty Eternal	Posted - 2009.11.19 15:58:00 - [24] Originally by: Mortagnan The idea of a central bank is highly appealing and I think has alot of merit. Basing it off of minerals takes it in a different direction that may be feasible, but undesirable from a security standpoint. As mentioned above, the only way to secure assets is to lockdown a BPO. I don't believe investors are needed as its more of a Trust format with funds coming from depositors. There is no need to make profit from this entity, I view it more as a public service that will act as a social investment to improve the market community. It is by no means my intent to hijack this thread, but I would be willing to start the actual corporation with an alt of mine. Anyone interested in being on the board can contact me and we can start issuing some shares. IMPORTANT I'm not asking for a dime and I never will. This is simply something I want to see exist. I'll even step down as CEO after we get set up if the Board would like someone more experienced to take over. Apologies to the OP for throwing in my soapbox :) You're right, I was just thinking out loud
COL0NEL SANDERS	Posted - 2009.11.19 22:32:00 - [25] i got some trit!
Tyranus vonCarstein Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2009.11.20 02:35:00 - [26] Originally by: COL0NEL SANDERS i got some trit! I got fried chicken!
Alex555	Posted - 2009.11.20 13:26:00 - [27] i got french fries
Dretzle Omega Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.11.20 14:28:00 - [28] Originally by: Selene D'Celeste Before you hammer yourselves too much on security, there is only a single method of securing in-game assets by a group provided by CCP, and that is the BPO lockdown. If you're not basing your methods on that -and- you're aiming for security, you're doing it wrong. How are BPOs 100% secured? Is it possible to lock BPOs so they cannot be unlocked? If so, how can you turn them back into ISK when needed? This only spreads out the security a bit.
Johnny ReeRee The ReeRee Brigade	Posted - 2009.11.20 14:55:00 - [29] Originally by: Dretzle Omega Originally by: Selene D'Celeste Before you hammer yourselves too much on security, there is only a single method of securing in-game assets by a group provided by CCP, and that is the BPO lockdown. If you're not basing your methods on that -and- you're aiming for security, you're doing it wrong. How are BPOs 100% secured? Is it possible to lock BPOs so they cannot be unlocked? If so, how can you turn them back into ISK when needed? This only spreads out the security a bit. Exactly. Locking down BPOs is marginally more secure than doing nothing at all, but still not very secure, all things considered. Selene's child-like faith in them is touching, but not a sound basis for investment. ----------------- Join the ReeRee Brigade!
SetrakDark Caldari DarkCorp Technology and Finance	Posted - 2009.11.20 15:06:00 - [30] I believe you guys are missing the emphasis in Selene's post. The point is that the lockdown mechanism is the only ingame tool available for adding some potential layer of security, so any effort that does not involve this tool is wasted. The emphasis is on its singleness as an available tool, not its absolute quality in terms of security.

Pages: [1] 2 :: one page
First page \| Previous page \| Next page \| Last page

Copyright © 2006-2025, Chribba - OMG Labs. All Rights Reserved. - perf 0,05s, ref 20250924/1846
EVE-Online™ and Eve imagery © CCP.

COPYRIGHT NOTICE
EVE Online, the EVE logo, EVE and all associated logos and designs are the intellectual property of CCP hf. All artwork, screenshots, characters, vehicles, storylines, world facts or other recognizable features of the intellectual property relating to these trademarks are likewise the intellectual property of CCP hf. EVE Online and the EVE logo are the registered trademarks of CCP hf. All rights are reserved worldwide. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners. CCP hf. has granted permission to EVE-Search.com to use EVE Online and all associated logos and designs for promotional and information purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not in any way affiliated with, EVE-Search.com. CCP is in no way responsible for the content on or functioning of this website, nor can it be liable for any damage arising from the use of this website.