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Aneu Angellus	Posted - 2004.11.10 09:12:00 - [91] Originally by: Iratus Caelestis Heat is a tech level 3 attribute. Any idea what will be given to Projectiles or Hybrids? Aneu ________________ Aneu Angellus Vengeance Of The Fallen - WolfPack Military Captain
Aneu Angellus	Posted - 2004.11.10 09:12:00 - [92] Originally by: Iratus Caelestis Heat is a tech level 3 attribute. Any idea what will be given to Projectiles or Hybrids? Aneu ________________ Aneu Angellus Vengeance Of The Fallen - WolfPack Military Captain
hatchette	Posted - 2004.11.10 09:28:00 - [93] AFAIK tech2 crystals will wear out.
hatchette	Posted - 2004.11.10 09:28:00 - [94] AFAIK tech2 crystals will wear out.
StinkFinger	Posted - 2004.11.10 11:00:00 - [95] Originally by: Dethra I think in order to decide which is better, you have to know EVERYTHING. So putting aside variables, such as build costs, let's compare: -Ammunition needed to fire hybrids/projectiles are cheap -Ammunition (crystals) needed to fire lasers are expensive -Ammunition for hybrids/projectiles is a one use dael -Ammunition for lasers is an infinite use deal -over time, ammunition for hybrids/projectiles costs more than lasers -over time, crystals are easier to maintain/use now, points to be brought to light: -an average laser user has several full sets of crystals, you say. --A crystal is like an ammunition type Multrifrequency crystals = EMP for projectiles, Antimatter for hybrids. -Lasers use far more cap per shot than projectiles/hybrids. --Your point is? The ships that have bonuses for lasers also have a far larger cap, and also have bonuses for lowering cap used per shot/cap recharge rate. -I'd like to see an apoc use all 8 lasers AS WELL AS armor reps/MWDs/other stuff indefinitely like caldari/gallente/minmatr ships. --A minmatar/caldari/gallente ship using lasers wouldn't be able to use all that stuff indefinitely easier, just as an amarr ship could use all that stuff and more indefinitely if that ship fittted hybrid/projectile weapons. Now, the advantages/disadvantages of each: crystals: -Disadvantages: -expensive -usually have several full sets (more expensive) -Advantages: -infinite use Projectiles/Hybrids: -Disadvantages: -one use deal -must carry a large amount or reload every fight (NPC or otherwise) -is a pain to haul to ships/areas in 0.0 space -must build/buy every so often -Advantages: -Cheap Ok, so comparing those, it seems crystals actually come out on top, based on the fact that ammo costs more over a long period of time. This means, that is T2 crystals don't have some downside, they will ultimately be the obviously advantageous/easier/better choice. So to balance them out, T2 projectile/hybrid ammunition needs to be really really good, or at least better than T2 crystals, or T2 crystals have to be very very expensive/very hard to build/very rare/or limited uses. I think I got everything, can't be sure though You forget one thing in your noobler assesment there. Lasers only do thermal and em damage which is total SH!T against armor. Add that to your 'ANALysis'. --
StinkFinger	Posted - 2004.11.10 11:00:00 - [96] Originally by: Dethra I think in order to decide which is better, you have to know EVERYTHING. So putting aside variables, such as build costs, let's compare: -Ammunition needed to fire hybrids/projectiles are cheap -Ammunition (crystals) needed to fire lasers are expensive -Ammunition for hybrids/projectiles is a one use dael -Ammunition for lasers is an infinite use deal -over time, ammunition for hybrids/projectiles costs more than lasers -over time, crystals are easier to maintain/use now, points to be brought to light: -an average laser user has several full sets of crystals, you say. --A crystal is like an ammunition type Multrifrequency crystals = EMP for projectiles, Antimatter for hybrids. -Lasers use far more cap per shot than projectiles/hybrids. --Your point is? The ships that have bonuses for lasers also have a far larger cap, and also have bonuses for lowering cap used per shot/cap recharge rate. -I'd like to see an apoc use all 8 lasers AS WELL AS armor reps/MWDs/other stuff indefinitely like caldari/gallente/minmatr ships. --A minmatar/caldari/gallente ship using lasers wouldn't be able to use all that stuff indefinitely easier, just as an amarr ship could use all that stuff and more indefinitely if that ship fittted hybrid/projectile weapons. Now, the advantages/disadvantages of each: crystals: -Disadvantages: -expensive -usually have several full sets (more expensive) -Advantages: -infinite use Projectiles/Hybrids: -Disadvantages: -one use deal -must carry a large amount or reload every fight (NPC or otherwise) -is a pain to haul to ships/areas in 0.0 space -must build/buy every so often -Advantages: -Cheap Ok, so comparing those, it seems crystals actually come out on top, based on the fact that ammo costs more over a long period of time. This means, that is T2 crystals don't have some downside, they will ultimately be the obviously advantageous/easier/better choice. So to balance them out, T2 projectile/hybrid ammunition needs to be really really good, or at least better than T2 crystals, or T2 crystals have to be very very expensive/very hard to build/very rare/or limited uses. I think I got everything, can't be sure though You forget one thing in your noobler assesment there. Lasers only do thermal and em damage which is total SH!T against armor. Add that to your 'ANALysis'. --
Jernau Gurgeh	Posted - 2004.11.10 11:08:00 - [97] Why are we even having this discussion when: * T2 crystals and ammo are not yet in the game, and are unlikely to be in the game before the introduction of T2 missile launchers. * The stats for T2 ammo and crystals have yet to be finalised. There are 10 sorts of people in the world - those who understand binary, and those who do not.
Jernau Gurgeh	Posted - 2004.11.10 11:08:00 - [98] Why are we even having this discussion when: * T2 crystals and ammo are not yet in the game, and are unlikely to be in the game before the introduction of T2 missile launchers. * The stats for T2 ammo and crystals have yet to be finalised. There are 10 sorts of people in the world - those who understand binary, and those who do not.
OffBeaT	Posted - 2004.11.10 11:29:00 - [99] what i like too know is, are the rats gona drop t2 gear or only t1 still?
OffBeaT	Posted - 2004.11.10 11:29:00 - [100] what i like too know is, are the rats gona drop t2 gear or only t1 still?
dethanor	Posted - 2004.11.10 11:41:00 - [101] what if no tech 2 weaponry/ammuntion/charges were on the horizon? would it still be argued that tech 1 versions were overpowered with the other weapons? from what I can see, the tech 2 variety of all the weapons from small to large is better than the tech 1 version period hence the better technology. and so i believe will the ammo/charges but in a balanced way. without proper stats on tech 2 ammo's and crystals, noone knows, but would we be having this same argument about the weapons if tech 2 was not around? if ppl invest the time to train in large pulse specialisation (a long time as your all aware) then why not grant them the ability to use a better tech, better damage modifier wpn? same for blasters, rails, etc etc this is a turning point atm, the older players who have invested a lot of time (and money) in this game have a lot better chance to be able to use these things a lot sooner. that is the way of things. imho, the tech 2 wpns are all better versions than the tech 1 in a balanced way as they are atm ie, higher dam mod, better range or whatever. obviously the tech 2 will be better also but on the same scale therefore this argument to me can be applied to both tech types and ammo/charge types if your going to nerf a tech lvl, you will have to nerf the whole category basically how i see it There is no art more beautiful nor diverse than the art of death!!! Oberon Tech II Sales.
dethanor	Posted - 2004.11.10 11:41:00 - [102] what if no tech 2 weaponry/ammuntion/charges were on the horizon? would it still be argued that tech 1 versions were overpowered with the other weapons? from what I can see, the tech 2 variety of all the weapons from small to large is better than the tech 1 version period hence the better technology. and so i believe will the ammo/charges but in a balanced way. without proper stats on tech 2 ammo's and crystals, noone knows, but would we be having this same argument about the weapons if tech 2 was not around? if ppl invest the time to train in large pulse specialisation (a long time as your all aware) then why not grant them the ability to use a better tech, better damage modifier wpn? same for blasters, rails, etc etc this is a turning point atm, the older players who have invested a lot of time (and money) in this game have a lot better chance to be able to use these things a lot sooner. that is the way of things. imho, the tech 2 wpns are all better versions than the tech 1 in a balanced way as they are atm ie, higher dam mod, better range or whatever. obviously the tech 2 will be better also but on the same scale therefore this argument to me can be applied to both tech types and ammo/charge types if your going to nerf a tech lvl, you will have to nerf the whole category basically how i see it There is no art more beautiful nor diverse than the art of death!!! Oberon Tech II Sales.
Dai'mon	Posted - 2004.11.10 13:19:00 - [103] Edited by: Dai'mon on 10/11/2004 13:25:31 Quote: You forget one thing in your noobler assesment there. Lasers only do thermal and em damage which is total SH!T against armor. My ability to run 8 lasers, 2 Lrg Armour repairs and have an MWD fitted makes up for this though..... Anyway this thread has gone off topic a bit. The orginal question was whether t2 ammo needing t2 components would make lasers un-balanced. I think this is something the devs would need to look at (if they haven't already) if t2 ammo does need t2 components.
Dai'mon	Posted - 2004.11.10 13:19:00 - [104] Edited by: Dai'mon on 10/11/2004 13:25:31 Quote: You forget one thing in your noobler assesment there. Lasers only do thermal and em damage which is total SH!T against armor. My ability to run 8 lasers, 2 Lrg Armour repairs and have an MWD fitted makes up for this though..... Anyway this thread has gone off topic a bit. The orginal question was whether t2 ammo needing t2 components would make lasers un-balanced. I think this is something the devs would need to look at (if they haven't already) if t2 ammo does need t2 components.
Alt duJour	Posted - 2004.11.10 13:40:00 - [105] Originally by: StinkFinger You forget one thing in your noobler assesment there. Lasers only do thermal and em damage which is total SH!T against armor. Add that to your 'ANALysis'. He also didn't mention these damage types are far better against shields. And for that matter, neither did you. Base damage to armor per second: 425 mm rail: 9.21 mega beam: 8.02 (15% less) Base damage to shield per second: 425 mm rail: 9.25 mega beam: 14.48 (57% more) resulting in over 20% higher average damage overall. Thank you, drive through.
Alt duJour	Posted - 2004.11.10 13:40:00 - [106] Originally by: StinkFinger You forget one thing in your noobler assesment there. Lasers only do thermal and em damage which is total SH!T against armor. Add that to your 'ANALysis'. He also didn't mention these damage types are far better against shields. And for that matter, neither did you. Base damage to armor per second: 425 mm rail: 9.21 mega beam: 8.02 (15% less) Base damage to shield per second: 425 mm rail: 9.25 mega beam: 14.48 (57% more) resulting in over 20% higher average damage overall. Thank you, drive through.
StinkFinger	Posted - 2004.11.10 15:55:00 - [107] Edited by: StinkFinger on 10/11/2004 22:47:24 Originally by: Alt duJour Originally by: StinkFinger You forget one thing in your noobler assesment there. Lasers only do thermal and em damage which is total SH!T against armor. Add that to your 'ANALysis'. He also didn't mention these damage types are far better against shields. And for that matter, neither did you. Base damage to armor per second: 425 mm rail: 9.21 mega beam: 8.02 (15% less) Base damage to shield per second: 425 mm rail: 9.25 mega beam: 14.48 (57% more) resulting in over 20% higher average damage overall. Thank you, drive through. And you forget to mention that hybrids can do kinetic as well as thermal damage while projectiles can do all types. Lasers can never do kinetic or explosive damage. Uhhh...woops? --
StinkFinger	Posted - 2004.11.10 15:55:00 - [108] Edited by: StinkFinger on 10/11/2004 22:47:24 Originally by: Alt duJour Originally by: StinkFinger You forget one thing in your noobler assesment there. Lasers only do thermal and em damage which is total SH!T against armor. Add that to your 'ANALysis'. He also didn't mention these damage types are far better against shields. And for that matter, neither did you. Base damage to armor per second: 425 mm rail: 9.21 mega beam: 8.02 (15% less) Base damage to shield per second: 425 mm rail: 9.25 mega beam: 14.48 (57% more) resulting in over 20% higher average damage overall. Thank you, drive through. And you forget to mention that hybrids can do kinetic as well as thermal damage while projectiles can do all types. Lasers can never do kinetic or explosive damage. Uhhh...woops? --
Alt duJour	Posted - 2004.11.10 16:41:00 - [109] Originally by: StinkFinger And you forget to mention that hybrids and projectiles can do EM as well as thermal damage. Lasers can never do kinetic or explosive damage. Uhhh...woops? Hybrids do only thermal/kinetic and as shown in the part you quoted, have lower damage output overall. Projectiles can do all types, but their rate of fire makes their damage output inferior to anything, even with Minmatar ship bonus included. 'woops', indeed.
Alt duJour	Posted - 2004.11.10 16:41:00 - [110] Originally by: StinkFinger And you forget to mention that hybrids and projectiles can do EM as well as thermal damage. Lasers can never do kinetic or explosive damage. Uhhh...woops? Hybrids do only thermal/kinetic and as shown in the part you quoted, have lower damage output overall. Projectiles can do all types, but their rate of fire makes their damage output inferior to anything, even with Minmatar ship bonus included. 'woops', indeed.
StinkFinger	Posted - 2004.11.10 16:56:00 - [111] Originally by: Alt duJour Originally by: StinkFinger And you forget to mention that hybrids and projectiles can do EM as well as thermal damage. Lasers can never do kinetic or explosive damage. Uhhh...woops? Hybrids do only thermal/kinetic and as shown in the part you quoted, have lower damage output overall. Projectiles can do all types, but their rate of fire makes their damage output inferior to anything, even with Minmatar ship bonus included. 'woops', indeed. Actually my misinformed alternative friend, hybrids do more base armor damage then projectiles. http://img62.exs.cx/img62/9931/untitled723.jpg As you can see, em ammo type for the two classes of weapons both do significant damage to armor...the hybrids actually are quite a bit better against armor... uhh...double woops? --
StinkFinger	Posted - 2004.11.10 16:56:00 - [112] Originally by: Alt duJour Originally by: StinkFinger And you forget to mention that hybrids and projectiles can do EM as well as thermal damage. Lasers can never do kinetic or explosive damage. Uhhh...woops? Hybrids do only thermal/kinetic and as shown in the part you quoted, have lower damage output overall. Projectiles can do all types, but their rate of fire makes their damage output inferior to anything, even with Minmatar ship bonus included. 'woops', indeed. Actually my misinformed alternative friend, hybrids do more base armor damage then projectiles. http://img62.exs.cx/img62/9931/untitled723.jpg As you can see, em ammo type for the two classes of weapons both do significant damage to armor...the hybrids actually are quite a bit better against armor... uhh...double woops? --
Mr Popov	Posted - 2004.11.10 16:57:00 - [113] If lasers, projectiles, and blasters were sooo nicely balanced, why do people almost EXCLUSIVELY use Apoc to NPC hunt in? The only reason people use Caldari for PVP is missiles. Tracking and accuracy is so b0rked that unless you have a sniperpoc or gankageddon, missiles are the way to go (with the few exceptions of supporting BBs giving a tempest tracking link). Sure I could NPC hunt quite well in a raven, if I want to spend more money on missiels than I make from bounty/loot
Mr Popov	Posted - 2004.11.10 16:57:00 - [114] If lasers, projectiles, and blasters were sooo nicely balanced, why do people almost EXCLUSIVELY use Apoc to NPC hunt in? The only reason people use Caldari for PVP is missiles. Tracking and accuracy is so b0rked that unless you have a sniperpoc or gankageddon, missiles are the way to go (with the few exceptions of supporting BBs giving a tempest tracking link). Sure I could NPC hunt quite well in a raven, if I want to spend more money on missiels than I make from bounty/loot
Lorth	Posted - 2004.11.10 17:02:00 - [115] Edited by: Lorth on 10/11/2004 17:17:40 Originally by: StinkFinger And you forget to mention that hybrids and projectiles can do EM as well as thermal damage. Lasers can never do kinetic or explosive damage. Uhhh...woops? Please show me the hybrid that does EM damage. You could also take into acount that on any PVP BS the kinetic and thermal armor resistances are actually higher then the EM resisances. Not to mention that the explosive reistance is only 5% less then that of EM. Of course I'm assuming that someone is using three hardeners as 90% of the people out there do. Nice try though. Originally by: StinkFinger Actually my misinformed alternative friend, hybrids do more base armor damage then projectiles. http://img62.exs.cx/img62/9931/untitled723.jpg As you can see, em ammo type for the two classes of weapons both do significant damage to armor...the hybrids actually are quite a bit better against armor... uhh...double woops? You do know you just said the exact same thing that he said then flamed him for saying it. Read what you wrote. And if you had bothered to look... Antimatter isn't and EM damage type. Not to mention if you take into account the ushall fitting of three hardeners EM damage is better then kinetic and thermal damage, and only slightly worse then explosive.
Lorth	Posted - 2004.11.10 17:02:00 - [116] Edited by: Lorth on 10/11/2004 17:17:40 Originally by: StinkFinger And you forget to mention that hybrids and projectiles can do EM as well as thermal damage. Lasers can never do kinetic or explosive damage. Uhhh...woops? Please show me the hybrid that does EM damage. You could also take into acount that on any PVP BS the kinetic and thermal armor resistances are actually higher then the EM resisances. Not to mention that the explosive reistance is only 5% less then that of EM. Of course I'm assuming that someone is using three hardeners as 90% of the people out there do. Nice try though. Originally by: StinkFinger Actually my misinformed alternative friend, hybrids do more base armor damage then projectiles. http://img62.exs.cx/img62/9931/untitled723.jpg As you can see, em ammo type for the two classes of weapons both do significant damage to armor...the hybrids actually are quite a bit better against armor... uhh...double woops? You do know you just said the exact same thing that he said then flamed him for saying it. Read what you wrote. And if you had bothered to look... Antimatter isn't and EM damage type. Not to mention if you take into account the ushall fitting of three hardeners EM damage is better then kinetic and thermal damage, and only slightly worse then explosive.
Alt duJour	Posted - 2004.11.10 17:10:00 - [117] Originally by: StinkFinger Actually my misinformed alternative friend, hybrids do more base armor damage then projectiles. http://img62.exs.cx/img62/9931/untitled723.jpg As you can see, em ammo type for the two classes of weapons both do significant damage to armor... I don't recall saying it to be different. All i said was, the lasers do more damage overall when you take into account both shield and armour (last i checked, ships had both) And that projectiles do all damage types but suck in comparison to everything else. Especially when you take into account the rate of fire of the turret, the damage multiplier, the ammo capacity and the reloading time... damage is not dealt by the ammo alone. Quote: the hybrids actually are quite a bit better against armor... Actually, no. hybrid antimatter l charge: 34.0 fusion l ammo: 34.8 (and just 25% range penalty instead of 50% the antimatter hybrid has) Quote: uhh...double woops? Guess it's triple woops now.
Alt duJour	Posted - 2004.11.10 17:10:00 - [118] Originally by: StinkFinger Actually my misinformed alternative friend, hybrids do more base armor damage then projectiles. http://img62.exs.cx/img62/9931/untitled723.jpg As you can see, em ammo type for the two classes of weapons both do significant damage to armor... I don't recall saying it to be different. All i said was, the lasers do more damage overall when you take into account both shield and armour (last i checked, ships had both) And that projectiles do all damage types but suck in comparison to everything else. Especially when you take into account the rate of fire of the turret, the damage multiplier, the ammo capacity and the reloading time... damage is not dealt by the ammo alone. Quote: the hybrids actually are quite a bit better against armor... Actually, no. hybrid antimatter l charge: 34.0 fusion l ammo: 34.8 (and just 25% range penalty instead of 50% the antimatter hybrid has) Quote: uhh...double woops? Guess it's triple woops now.
StinkFinger	Posted - 2004.11.10 17:18:00 - [119] Originally by: Alt duJour Originally by: StinkFinger You forget one thing in your noobler assesment there. Lasers only do thermal and em damage which is total SH!T against armor. Add that to your 'ANALysis'. He also didn't mention these damage types are far better against shields. And for that matter, neither did you. Base damage to armor per second: 425 mm rail: 9.21 mega beam: 8.02 (15% less) Base damage to shield per second: 425 mm rail: 9.25 mega beam: 14.48 (57% more) resulting in over 20% higher average damage overall. Thank you, drive through. What crystal vs what ammo type are you talking about here? If you're using different range ammunition/crystals in your comparison, it's all crap. Bottom line, hybrids vs lasers are balanced while projectiles stink(more so due to tracking problems then anything else). --
StinkFinger	Posted - 2004.11.10 17:18:00 - [120] Originally by: Alt duJour Originally by: StinkFinger You forget one thing in your noobler assesment there. Lasers only do thermal and em damage which is total SH!T against armor. Add that to your 'ANALysis'. He also didn't mention these damage types are far better against shields. And for that matter, neither did you. Base damage to armor per second: 425 mm rail: 9.21 mega beam: 8.02 (15% less) Base damage to shield per second: 425 mm rail: 9.25 mega beam: 14.48 (57% more) resulting in over 20% higher average damage overall. Thank you, drive through. What crystal vs what ammo type are you talking about here? If you're using different range ammunition/crystals in your comparison, it's all crap. Bottom line, hybrids vs lasers are balanced while projectiles stink(more so due to tracking problems then anything else). --

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