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Patrice Macmahon
Department of Defence
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Posted - 2009.12.19 06:30:00 -
[1]
Is this possible? I realize that a destroyer would have a very difficult time taking out any missile boats, but it is feasable to speed tank some medium guns with an orbital velocity of 700m/s (.13-.15 angular velocity against a slow moving target).
Issues I know of would be your mid slot layout, as with an AB, your only limited to one or two ewar modules, which I was thinking a tracking disruptor (I fly a catalyst), but Im open to flying other ships.
I bring this up because I frequently rat in 0.0 space and have figured out how to destroy or scare off T1 and T2 frigs, but I was wondering if it were possible to do the same to a cruiser sized vessel.
The Intakis have an obligation to defend the Federation, but not to assult others on its behalf. |
Lemmy Kravitz
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Posted - 2009.12.19 09:53:00 -
[2]
cruisers will eat you for lunch if they have drones or a web. solo T1 and T2 frig killing is a dodgy buisiness in a destroyer as it is. You might be able to but I would put your odds at around 1 out of 10.
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Marko Riva
Adamant Inc
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Posted - 2009.12.19 09:55:00 -
[3]
If that cruiser is fit for short range pvp you're going to die. If it's a lolfit, long range fit or a very young player you have a chance.
----------- I think, therefore I'm single. New projectile damage PDF Alliance creation service |
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2009.12.19 12:47:00 -
[4]
The Thrasher can combat several of the cruisers if you fit for it.
Problem is if its in a ratting scenario, youwill not know what cruiser to expect and will probably not be able to dictate initial range.
The other destroyers don't have the slots, fittings or required damage/range to do it though so I wouldn't bother if Catalyst is all you use.
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Svior Thekk
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Posted - 2009.12.19 13:46:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Svior Thekk on 19/12/2009 13:48:08 Posting with alt because I'm yella. *Note: Massive theory crafting ahead
My initial reaction would have been the same as previous posters:
"Hur hur, you gonna die trying!"
Then I thought about how I'd fit a PVP cruiser in general: high damage at close to mid range with as big a buffer as I could squeeze on next to a MWD.
Then the Thrasher popped into my head. 8 High slots (capless damage) 3 mid and 2 lows. Given that Projectile Turrets have brilliant falloff specs and that you're not trying to actually kill a cruiser, just chase him off, would a falloff range fit be appropriate?
Ratting Fit + chasing off some cruisers.
8x Biggest Auto Cannons or possibly even Arties you can fit (or 7 + a salvager) with ?barrage? loaded for extra falloff?
1x Named MWD 1x Web 1x Tracking Disruptor (Probably a range script but carry both incase)
1x Armour Rep or Armour Buffer or possibly an Over Drive 1x Gyro stab
Rigs
3x Ambit Extensions
Success would require massive module/targetting management, active piloting and errors on the opposing pilots behalf (not something guarenteed) *Note the lack of a point - you're trying to get the Cruiser pilot to bug out.
The main tactic to use would be to definatly keep out of overheated web range (13km) and put down some damage, chipping away at the buffer while you're in your falloff range. Tracking disruptor to help you evade damage.
If there are any drones in the mix, kill them first (utilise the webber).
I imagine if you've managed to do all of this and not be blown up, the next limitting factor will be capacitor. A cruiser has a far larger capacitor than a dessy and will last longer burning a MWD.
I'm not sure how to counter this. You could try dropping either the Webber or TD for a small cap booster (PG intensive) or you could just try pulling range and bugging out before you run your cap dry.
Some Cruisers this may work on:
Moa, Thorax, Celestis (their drones are unbonused) and at a push Maller, Augoror, Omen (but lasers have good range and alright tracking)
Some Cruisers that will leave you with a sore behind:
Vexor, Arbitrator, Rupture, Stabber, Caracal and obviously any T2 Cruiser.
Needless to say, to do this successfully would be a very hard thing to do. You're flying an inferior ship and relying on the opposing pilot being rubbish. (I'm guessing that if they've scanned you down to a belt before you've spotted them enter the system in the local channel or saw them approach on the D-scanner - they're a better pilot than you)
I would have to conclude that it'd be much easier having a safespot ready to warp to while keeping an eye on local/Dscanner. |
Andreus LeHane
Gallente Mixed Metaphor
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Posted - 2009.12.19 15:02:00 -
[6]
Any ship with combat drones will eat you alive. Any ship with a damage bonus to drones isn't even worth discussing. Missile boats are going to ruin your day. The only thing you have a chance worth speaking of against is a gunboat that forgot to pack combat drones. An afterburner and a tracking disruptor will seriously screw with a gunboat's DPS, if you can fit them, but that still doesn't overcome the very real problem of dealing enough damage to kill it from outside web range. An arty Thrasher might be able to do the job, assuming the ship is buffered rather than actively tanked.
Overall I'm going to go ahead and say it's certainly possible, but not particularly feasible. Then again, I have seen an Ishkur tear apart a Zealot, so what the heck do I know? -----
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Marko Riva
Adamant Inc
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Posted - 2009.12.19 15:08:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Andreus LeHane Then again, I have seen an Ishkur tear apart a Zealot, so what the heck do I know?
I fail to see what's so odd about that?
----------- I think, therefore I'm single. New projectile damage PDF Alliance creation service |
Patrice Macmahon
Department of Defence
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Posted - 2009.12.19 18:07:00 -
[8]
Thanks Svoir, thanks for the advice.
To counter MWD, couldn't I use the destroyers superior agility to constantly be kiting? With superior turn radius and manual flight, I should be able to force the ship to shut down MWD to be able to turn quick enough to stay on course to close within range. If their MWD is on, they wont be able to turn quick enough, and if it off, an over loaded AB can get range on them fairly quickly (even when webbed)...
I'll have to test that theory with a few corp mates later.
The Intakis have an obligation to defend the Federation, but not to assult others on its behalf. |
Patrice Macmahon
Department of Defence
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Posted - 2009.12.19 18:36:00 -
[9]
Oh, and the reason I bring this up, is that they, like the t1 and t2 frigs, find me in my safe spots. When the come knocking I have two choices, bug out and start running (where sometimes I get chased) or present a target they don't want to attack. If I can push them off, they usually leave me alone while I go back to ratting.
I am just looking for a way to cause the same kind of reation in cruiser pilots. =)
The Intakis have an obligation to defend the Federation, but not to assult others on its behalf. |
Marko Riva
Adamant Inc
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Posted - 2009.12.19 18:37:00 -
[10]
Lets assume a proper fit pvp fit cruiser; Rupture, dual 180's, nos/neut. MWD, point, web, 1600yaddyaddayadda.
Result; he'll eat you. You're not fast enough, you're not small enough you don't tank well enough. Your only redeeming factor is decent damage with good range. Range doesn't help you here at all because the second you pull away a bit from that cruiser you lower tranversal and those 180's will turn you into cheese.
Theoretically you COULD use an AB fit with a tracking disruptor and orbit real close, in reality trying to GET there is what kills you.
Thrashers are great ships and work great against frigates, haulers and idiots but if you meet a decent pilot with a decent pvp fit you gonna die.
----------- I think, therefore I'm single. New projectile damage PDF Alliance creation service |
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Cattegirn
Rampant SR
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Posted - 2009.12.20 02:41:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Cattegirn on 20/12/2009 02:47:43 If I tried really really hard, could I put a nail through a board of wood using just my head?
The fellow who mentioned what drones will do to you has said it all. Destroyers are designed to counter frigates. You will be better off in a frigate against a cruiser; It is not a matter of having more weapons than a frigate. The primary problem one faces in this matchup is *vulnerability*. You need to find a way to stay clear of the cruiser's weapons while you eat away his tank. It hardly matters whether you can get there in 100 volleys vs 70. The way to win is to be able to shoot him without him being able to shoot you and that is easier to achieve in the frigate. Easier is a relative term. Two frigates might make more sense.
Like using your knee instead. |
Cattegirn
Rampant SR
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Posted - 2009.12.20 02:46:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Marko Riva
Originally by: Andreus LeHane Then again, I have seen an Ishkur tear apart a Zealot, so what the heck do I know?
I fail to see what's so odd about that?
Right. Because there's nothing odd about it. See post above. Eve's ships don't simply outclass each class below it... thank heaven - that would be boring.
Rampant Corp - Strategy Articles and PVP Training |
Svior Thekk
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Posted - 2009.12.20 16:39:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Patrice Macmahon Oh, and the reason I bring this up, is that they, like the t1 and t2 frigs, find me in my safe spots. When the come knocking I have two choices, bug out and start running (where sometimes I get chased) or present a target they don't want to attack. If I can push them off, they usually leave me alone while I go back to ratting.
I am just looking for a way to cause the same kind of reation in cruiser pilots. =)
When you're in your safe spot are you sat stationary? Or are you aligned to a planet? With a MWD running a good thrasher pilot should easily be hitting 1700ms cap stable. While admittedly you won't be off grid by the time they've warped to you, you'll at least be out of scram range. If they put a 24km point (28.8km OH) on you, kick the overheat on the mwd (for upward of 2300ms), target any drones deployed as soon as they're on the overview and try to destroy them.... if you survive, then hope you're not against anything with a good range.
When you run do you just jump from system to system or do you double back on yourself and try to properly give them t.... wait a second. How has no one thought of this yet?
Adjust your fit to incorporate Prototype Cloaking Device I. Warp to safespot and cloak up til they leave the system/go and make a cup of tea and a slice of toast, chat to some corpies... they'll get bored quick.
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Sharbat
Nethro Ore Conglomerate
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Posted - 2009.12.20 20:00:00 -
[14]
Destroyers eat drones alive. I guess it's an even fight if you can manage to keep your ab up and orbit him where his guns don't track.
As soon as the cruisers drones are toast he will lose... badly. At least if he hasnt got an ab.
With afterburner he can maybe get to 5km range where his guns track ;).
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Zarnak Wulf
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Posted - 2009.12.20 21:39:00 -
[15]
Destroyers for all intents and purposes are glass cannons. If you read their description their supposed to defend the fleet against smaller threats. That gives you an image of a vessel sitting next to BC and BS and shooting at incoming support.
Instead they're used for FW, salvaging, and the occasional odd solo PvP. They're much too fragile to take on any kind of fleet fight. They're EHP isn't much more then a frigate's. They can't buffer or speed tank very well. The rate of fire penalty and tight fitting cripples all destroyers but the Thrasher.
I used to run solo with a Thrasher. Frigates would see me and rush into battle only to be staring at their pod after two salvoes. Small rigs, Dominion, and ammo changes have enabled me to go from 1382 to 1796 in an alpha strike. I can one shot interceptors. Two shot flycatchers. I've put a blackbird into hull with two salvoes (then got jammed. lol) But I've reluctantly had to put the ship away. The Thrasher's reputation is such that frigates definitely no longer charge me. And it can't survive any kind of fleet action. The days of taking on 4 interceptors and winning are over. I'd really like to take that kind of firepower out on a roam though. More survivability would be nice. The other three destroyers should be designed from the ground up.
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Shivan'Dragon
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Posted - 2009.12.21 06:16:00 -
[16]
My thrasher does similar wonders too, sometimes i wish it had a better tankable setup but then people wouldent use cruisers anymore. 7 artillerys do lots of damage from far. I use tech 2 720 artillerys with range bonus ammo, one targeting range booster and one targeting range dampner, then puls mwd to cirle around a 45km radius. That is pretty much your only chance to get a cruiser, provided that he would warp off as soon as he realizes he cant catch or hit you. Drones are still trouble but with the right ammo and tracking enhancers you might be able to take them down before they do real damage. The key word here is may :)
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Patrice Macmahon
Department of Defence
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Posted - 2009.12.22 03:40:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Patrice Macmahon on 22/12/2009 03:41:31 I've had some success in pushing them off (no kills but thats expected, but no importantly in two engagements, no losses). Had to go with two tracking rigs to drop the tracking computer and fit a named tracking disrupter with script. I have to keep tracking at approximately .2 to be able to get equal damage against close range cepters (who usually get orbit at approx .3->.4 and lower when Im piloting correctly) The only way I was able to keep transversal up with overloaded AB (which gives me a little under two minutes of fight time). Anyone with a SERIOUS buffer or a small armor rep should be able to outlast me, but I put enough damage on them to scare em off. Got some o.O in local when it happened.
MWD's are bad for this kind of fit. Most cruisers are Stabber fit at my level, so I's be pushed down to around 150m/s with web rather than roughly 375 m/s with overloaded ab against web. Again, missle boats own me, but I am comming back to say it is possible to push the majority of the Thorax (and like ilk) off. I don't think there is a feasable way to scare off a BC at this point. I wouldn't be able to kill that buffer before my AB burned out.
The Intakis have an obligation to defend the Federation, but not to assult others on its behalf. |
Rocktown
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Posted - 2009.12.23 15:22:00 -
[18]
its very possible take a look at one of my buddies' battleclinic stats and see what he is capable of in a thrasher Mia Serenissima is the name
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King Rothgar
Imperial Slave Hunter Society
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Posted - 2009.12.24 14:25:00 -
[19]
Destroyers can't really sig/speed tank cruisers so no it doesn't work typically. Obviously good pvp'ers vs idiots doesn't count. They can really chew up frigates but due to terrible slot configurations on most of them, they can't do it solo. I've tried flying a coercer on a few occasions but 1 midslot is kinda hard to work with, even if you pair up with a frigate to do the tackling. CCP should really rework them. All the coercer needs is an extra midslot to be viable, I think the other destroyers could use an extra mid or low slot too. -----------------------------------------------------
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