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Mid range cargo ship

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Drovask	Posted - 2009.12.22 04:52:00 - [1] It would be nice and fill in a big gap if CCP created a mid range cargo ship, their is a big gap between industrial ships and freighters both skill wise and cost wise, a middle ground freighter of say 200k cargo would be nice and the tank on it could be half or 1/4 of a freighter so its not as tough, giving the pirates something to shoot and the smaller industrial people something to move battleships in. what do you guys think?
James Tritanius	Posted - 2009.12.22 05:14:00 - [2] orca?
Drovask	Posted - 2009.12.22 05:17:00 - [3] close but expensive as hell, i mean a dedicated cargo ship like a freighter but smaller and less skill requirements. somewhere in the 100-200 mil range.
Vherana Minmatar Valkyrie Industries Namtz' aar K'in	Posted - 2009.12.22 15:21:00 - [4] Edited by: Vherana on 22/12/2009 15:23:18 Edited by: Vherana on 22/12/2009 15:22:01 Yes, much appreciated - a sized down Freighter, less skill intensive, and much more affordable. Industrials are 48k m¦ Freighter is >700mio m¦ --> Small Freighter: 250k m¦ As for a new skill: "Small Freighter", needs "Spaceship Command V". To pilot the ship, one needs its racial ".. Industrial V" Or to save time on the design of 4 different ships, make ORE Syndicate build one of those and add the skill "ORE Freighter". Might even expand to a complete line of small Freighters ;)
darius mclever	Posted - 2009.12.22 15:33:00 - [5] the orca fills exactly that gap. we dont need another ship to fill the same gap.
Serge Bastana Gallente GWA Corp	Posted - 2009.12.22 15:46:00 - [6] My Orca does this perfectly, how cheap do you think a mid range freighter would be anyway? I doubt you would get something like you're asking for under 300 mill. ------------------------------------------------ You either need a punch up the throat or a good shag. Nobody round here is offering the second one therefore your choices are limited!
Captain Mastiff	Posted - 2009.12.22 15:52:00 - [7] Orca is pretty much exactly mid range between industrial/transport and freighters. Orca is most delicious.
WarPGasM	Posted - 2009.12.22 17:01:00 - [8] From a Hauler point of view the cargo size jumps are extreme. I wouldnt mind a go between type frieghter, the Orca may be able to fill the gap but from a hauler point of view he doesnt want to have to train mining barge 5 and mining director inorder to fill his hauling gap. I actually like the idea of a Ore constructed hull design, more ships, more shinies!
Czert ElPrezidente	Posted - 2009.12.22 18:07:00 - [9] Very logical, if you want use medium hauler, you must train minning which isnt related to transporting.
PaulTheWise	Posted - 2009.12.22 21:22:00 - [10] ...less skill intensive? I've already seen Induatrial V and Spaceship Command V being mentioned, so the only way to be less skill intensive is to drop advanced spaceship command an freighter skill, as those only take 2 or 3 hours after you've gotten the lvl 5's. It takes close to a month to go from Gallente Industrial IV to V, you go from 13k to 25k, or roughly 100% increase. Only a week after that (Spaceship command III -> V, Freighter I, Adv. Spaceship I) you go to 787k, or a 3100% increase. Level 5 prereqs make for this kind of strange hiccups in cargospace per skillpoint (or actually any kind of skill or attribute versus skillpoints) so the only way to make this mini-freighter less skill intensive would be by dropping one of the lvl 5 prereqs, Spaceship command being the obvious one. I highly doubt this will ever happen though. I don't mind if CCP would add in something between the 70k m3 Orca (not sure how far mods and skills will bring that, not counting the ore bay as you can only store ore in it) and the 10 times bigger freighter, I just don't think it will be less skill intensive than the freighter.

Misanthra	Posted - 2009.12.23 07:22:00 - [11] Edited by: Misanthra on 23/12/2009 07:23:09 Space Command 5 not a bad requirement actually, not an omg difference but when your ships flies like a cow, any agility boost a good thing. Not like say transports with a stupid industry 5 requirement. Why you need to have a reduction in production run time to fly a T2 industrial that either fits a better cloak or has built in warp stabs...no idea. An engineering or electronic skillset 5 be better suited imo. But think will the only midline hauler will be the orca for quite a while. Fills a niche role adequately.
Nezumi Tenken Gallente Sursum Vestri Inc	Posted - 2009.12.23 11:26:00 - [12] Edited by: Nezumi Tenken on 23/12/2009 11:27:33 The Orca with 2 Tech 2 cargo rigs, 1 Tech 1 rig and all low with Cargo expander II's, can hold about 80.000 m¦ at max skills (the standart cargohold not the ore Bay). Thats just double of a similar kitted out Itty V (around 41.000 m¦). Thats is still a huge gap to the 750.000 m¦ thats average for freighter. A midrange solution would still be nice around 200-300k cargo. The smaller mining/industrial corp could use some thing bigger than the Orca but not as big as a Freighter. A small mining op with 3-4 Hulks allready fills up the Orca in no time so that you need a couple indis to haul in the ore. And getting the stuff to the market after refining also become too much for the Orca pretty fast. But it would still take ages to fill up a Freighter.
Nuts Nougat Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.12.23 12:08:00 - [13] Posting here to confirm that I cannot use my freighter unless it is completely full. Also the gap between an orca (80k) and a freighter (900k) is the jump freighter (300k). It aligns twice as fast as a normal freighter, it's much harder to kill. It also has a thing called jump drive, that's immeasurably useful if you deviate from highsec. ---
Nezumi Tenken Gallente Sursum Vestri Inc	Posted - 2009.12.23 12:20:00 - [14] Edited by: Nezumi Tenken on 23/12/2009 12:20:57 Edited by: Nezumi Tenken on 23/12/2009 12:20:24 Originally by: Nezumi Tenken Edited by: Nezumi Tenken on 23/12/2009 11:27:33 The Orca with 2 Tech 2 cargo rigs, 1 Tech 1 rig and all low with Cargo expander II's, can hold about 80.000 m¦ at max skills (the standart cargohold not the ore Bay). Thats just double of a similar kitted out Itty V (around 41.000 m¦). Thats is still a huge gap to the 750.000 m¦ thats average for freighter. Correction: The Orca can go to about 100k cargo. I did a little mess up with EFT. While you can use your Freighter even if you don't fill it up completly it's not very economic. You should allways use the Hauler you can use at max load. Using a 750k ship for 250k worth of cargo is just a waste of money. While splitting the cargo over several smaller haulers is not time effective. Especially at long distances.
darius mclever	Posted - 2009.12.23 13:18:00 - [15] you forget the 40k corp hangar where you can also put stuff? with industrial commandship 4 I get 119k m¦ with just t1 rigs and t2 cargo expanders.
Czert ElPrezidente	Posted - 2009.12.23 15:14:00 - [16] Originally by: Nuts Nougat Posting here to confirm that I cannot use my freighter unless it is completely full. Also the gap between an orca (80k) and a freighter (900k) is the jump freighter (300k). It aligns twice as fast as a normal freighter, it's much harder to kill. It also has a thing called jump drive, that's immeasurably useful if you deviate from highsec. But jump freighters are much skill intensive and cost much more than normal freigters, so I completly miss point here with finding mid-range freighter which is cheaper and less skill intensive than freigter.
Pan Dora Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2009.12.23 15:52:00 - [17] Originally by: Czert ElPrezidente Completly miss point here with finding mid-range freighter which is cheaper and less skill intensive than freigter. Its irrelevant your exact desire. There are ships that fill gap, and they are of large use in New Eden. _ I like to play this game because it make my in-game actions and archievments to mean something in-game.
Czert ElPrezidente	Posted - 2009.12.23 17:39:00 - [18] Edited by: Czert ElPrezidente on 23/12/2009 17:39:06 Ach, so you think that if minners complain that freigter will not pay off for them, them less capacity and more expensive ship will pay off for them more ?
Pan Dora Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2009.12.23 19:36:00 - [19] Originally by: Czert ElPrezidente Edited by: Czert ElPrezidente on 23/12/2009 17:39:06 Ach, so you think that if minners complain that freigter will not pay off for them, them less capacity and more expensive ship will pay off for them more ? 1- Stop to make it sound like a 'miner's resquest' since the size of cargoholds affects each and every one in this game. The whole miners vs pirats thing its bull**** and have nothing to do with the current discussion. 2- No I never said nothing like that. I said his particular opinion alone is irrelevent. The game will not change to acomodate the preferences of only a few players regardless of everyone else. 3- The orca its much less expensive than a freigther, jump freigthers are not the only option. 4.jump freigther/orca difer in many ways for a freigther and between each other, each have severral advantages over a freigther that have nothing to do with the 'mid cargo' niche that usually are the motivation for people training to then. Nevertheless if JF/Orca perform better in this narrow role and people that have the option will use then instead a freigther. _ I like to play this game because it make my in-game actions and archievments to mean something in-game.
PaulTheWise	Posted - 2009.12.24 00:23:00 - [20] Originally by: Nezumi Tenken While you can use your Freighter even if you don't fill it up completly it's not very economic. You should allways use the Hauler you can use at max load. Using a 750k ship for 250k worth of cargo is just a waste of money. While splitting the cargo over several smaller haulers is not time effective. Especially at long distances. M3 and ISK go hand in hand. BPOs exempt (usa a viator or w/e for that) you'll find a 250 million ISK haul won't all that often fit in an orca. Thouhg I haven't got one myself, I agree it is a very versatile craft. However, as a hauler I'd say it's worthless as soon as you get yourself a second account. Training for an alt with Frigate III, High Speed Maneuvering I and Propulsion Jamming I takes what, 2 or 3 days, congratulations, your freighter now aligns as fast as an orca (provided you web the orca too, otherwise it's omgwtfpwn quick compared to the orca). Freighters go for 650 million atm (either contracts or market, throw in 20 million for a fully T2 fitted Vigil, though I recommend Rapier once you can fly it), an fully cargofitted orca (which means T1 rigs, forgive me if I refuse to put Large Cargohold Optimization II rigs on it, they're worth as much as the hull, each, and we are comparing prices here) will cost (in Jita, right now) 350 + (3 * 21) + (2 * 0.5) = 414 million ISK. For the 240 million difference you go from 132714 m3 (all level 5) to 750+ m3 (850+ a day later, 900+ m3 roughly a week after that). As for skills, I can't be arsed to compare the prices for the leadership skills and mining skills, the Industrial Command Ship one is comparable to Adv Spaceship command leaving the 70m Racial Freighter. So the skillbooks likely cost more, training time (checked on an alt that only meets the spaceship command V skill and that is on both ships) is 50d for orca, 25 for freighter. Skillcosts would be a rough estimate, 120m for freighter, 60m for orca? To fill the gap, it would be something costing between 900m (skillbooks + purchase freighter + webber) and 480m ISK (purchase and skillbooks orca), and also between 25 and 50 days training, but frankly, those differences strike me as too small to put too much dev time in. I like the idea (I was looking for something like this before I swallowed and got a freighter, and now that I do have the freighter, I can't imagine I ever flew around using that very very small industrial.) but I don't think it's conceivable.

Czert ElPrezidente	Posted - 2009.12.25 11:47:00 - [21] Originally by: Pan Dora 1- Stop to make it sound like a 'miner's resquest' since the size of cargoholds affects each and every one in this game. The whole miners vs pirats thing its bull**** and have nothing to do with the current discussion. 2- No I never said nothing like that. I said his particular opinion alone is irrelevent. The game will not change to acomodate the preferences of only a few players regardless of everyone else. 3- The orca its much less expensive than a freigther, jump freigthers are not the only option. 4.jump freigther/orca difer in many ways for a freigther and between each other, each have severral advantages over a freigther that have nothing to do with the 'mid cargo' niche that usually are the motivation for people training to then. Nevertheless if JF/Orca perform better in this narrow role and people that have the option will use then instead a freigther. 1. I dont want it make it "minners only" think, but only as example of use 2.Why do you think it is only prefference of few players ? by few requests ? 3. again, why to train minning if you only want to tranport goods ? 4. if "mid range cargo" isnt motivation for use of orca/JF for many players, why you have problem with creating of "middle size" without bonuses of orca/JF - and thus much less skill intensive ?
Pan Dora Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2009.12.25 13:12:00 - [22] Originally by: Czert ElPrezidente 2.Why do you think it is only prefference of few players ? by few requests ? Not my point. Features need to be implemented based in a gamebalance perspective and not in a woldbecool perpective. Quote: 3. again, why to train minning if you only want to tranport goods ? Skill requirement exist to didact how long it takes to someone ascess some ship or module and which type of character will ascess it faster. CCP decide to make the orca more ascessible to miner than other type of charcters but by no means it prevent anyone to train for the ship. Even being more ascessible to miners its not uncommon people training for the orca only because his possibilities as hauler, or with this use being an important influence in the decision.possibbilities. Quote: 4. if "mid range cargo" isnt motivation for use of orca/JF for many players, why you have problem with creating of "middle size" without bonuses of orca/JF - and thus much less skill intensive ? First because making the 'mid range cargo' lesss ascessible to people that use the 'high cargo' and also the oposite make each niche more relevant and promove interraction a bit. Also because each objetive need to require ressonable work toward it to be significative as goal. _ I like to play this game because it make my in-game actions and archievments to mean something in-game.
Czert ElPrezidente	Posted - 2009.12.25 14:32:00 - [23] Originally by: Pan Dora Not my point. Features need to be implemented based in a gamebalance perspective and not in a woldbecool perpective. And it which way it will unbalance game ? Change it ? Surely, but why unbalance ? Quote: Skill requirement exist to didact how long it takes to someone ascess some ship or module and which type of character will ascess it faster. CCP decide to make the orca more ascessible to miner than other type of charcters but by no means it prevent anyone to train for the ship. Even being more ascessible to miners its not uncommon people training for the orca only because his possibilities as hauler, or with this use being an important influence in the decision.possibbilities. But that is EXACLY which I write. Peoples train minning skills which they dont need only be able to use decent haulrer. Quote: First because making the 'mid range cargo' lesss ascessible to people that use the 'high cargo' and also the oposite make each niche more relevant and promove interraction a bit. Also because each objetive need to require ressonable work toward it to be significative as goal. I really lost here, you saying that mid cargo is bad because it lower demant for low/high cargo ? using it will be golal too, but yes, less skill intenstive than orca/freigter.
PaulTheWise	Posted - 2009.12.27 17:04:00 - [24] Would you mind explain just how skill-intensive it then _should_ be? From zero to freighter takes what, 5 weeks?, most of that for Racial Industrial V. Your wish is for a hauler, and a hauler only. How do you propse CCP lower the training time for your mid-sized hauler? Just about every option would have to eliminate the Industrial V requirement, as the rest is just pocket change compared to it, and I don't seem them making a hauler which doesn't require Industrial skills. True, Orca doesn't require it, but the orca isn't a hauler per se, it's an Industrial Command Ship (hence the leadership skills) geared towards miners (hence the barge requirement).
Czert ElPrezidente	Posted - 2009.12.27 17:21:00 - [25] Edited by: Czert ElPrezidente on 27/12/2009 17:23:12 Just scratch from freigter reqs. advanced spaceship command and freighter. Yes, It will not save to much training time, but it will saves nice amount of ISK which can be invested in ship alone (or part of it). And mayby lowering racial industrial down to lvl4.
Pan Dora Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2009.12.27 18:07:00 - [26] Originally by: Czert ElPrezidente Originally by: Pan Dora Not my point. Features need to be implemented based in a gamebalance perspective and not in a woldbecool perpective. And it which way it will unbalance game ? Change it ? Surely, but why unbalance ? Just my faith in Murphy's law. Serious, I dont see any reson to thing the possible benefits of a middle-sized hauler will be superior to the possible drawbacks. Feel free to point me something Im missing. Quote: But that is EXACLY which I write. Peoples train minning skills which they dont need only be able to use decent haulrer. They need the skills, they just dont need the bonuses listed in skill description. In other words "required to fly the Orca" its just a skill bonus not in skill description. Quote: I really lost here, you saying that mid cargo is bad because it lower demant for low/high cargo ? using it will be golal too, but yes, less skill intenstive than orca/freigter. A mid cargo role sobrepose low/high cargo role a bit. Putting the mid cargo ship a bit appart off the low/high cargo ship (ISK/SP wise) help to minimize the issue. _ I like to play this game because it make my in-game actions and archievments to mean something in-game.
Czert ElPrezidente	Posted - 2009.12.27 18:50:00 - [27] pan dora - I dont know/see any drawbacks from using mid-sized hauler (with my proposed skills) other than it will add another ship and increase server-demand (read hardware issues). No one is game related. If you know/see any game-related problem then write it here please. Orca skills dont provide any bonus for non-minning character, and only represend time/isk sinks for them if they want it to use as hauler (which penalizes tranporting anythink other than ore).
Pan Dora Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2009.12.27 19:45:00 - [28] I dont see enough advanges, you dont see significant drawbacks. Maybe both are correct, we just reach diferent conclusions, lets just agree we disagree. _ I like to play this game because it make my in-game actions and archievments to mean something in-game.


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