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Donald 01Miner
Minmatar
Raata Invicti
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Posted - 2009.12.24 23:26:00 -
[1]
So we're in a system with 4-5 belts, not a lot yeah for a 0.0 but they're pretty good belts.
we upgrade the place via mining ops and pretty steady mining all the way to 2, where it's become pretty stagnant. Apparently we don't have enough 24/7 miners (wtf) to raise it to 3 and get another, better belt, and yet somehow, even keeping all 4 mining belts ****d of any decent minerals, and mining the 2 builts which seem to reset every 3 days instead of every night like ccp promised, we can barely keep our node up, even putting in hard core hours (keep it at 2).
wtf is up with this? our miners are going crazy out here putting big time hours in hulks just to keep these crappy belts up, that we pop roids in very very quickly, meanwhile ratters in this system or any other system barely have to sneeze and military goes to 5.
is this intentional and dear god why? We can't even sleep at night without the index dropping like 20% and we spend the entire day raising it back up. We're to the point we have to start mining low end ore just to keep it from falling hoping that some damned roids will respawn so we can do abc again.
anyone else noticing this? It's not a prob for corps in systems with like 30 belts of abc, but that's few and far between.
Cadet Donald_01miner (Mining & Transport) - Logistics Division - Hadean Drive Yards
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Tau Cabalander
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.12.24 23:44:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Tau Cabalander on 24/12/2009 23:45:54
Have you tried scanning for hidden belts?
Also upgraded belts re-pop faster, but only when mined completely out.
... at least from what I've read so far.
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Donald 01Miner
Minmatar
Raata Invicti
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Posted - 2009.12.24 23:48:00 -
[3]
of course we've scanned for belts, we mine both of them, and why would ccp expect us to have to mind the damned veldspar and crap just to MAINTAIN these extra belts?
point is, i can go rat for an hour and upgrade military but i can mine for 20 hours and just keep 'industry' even.
this is ridiculous
Cadet Donald_01miner (Mining & Transport) - Logistics Division - Hadean Drive Yards
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Phoebus ApolloX
Reasonable People
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Posted - 2009.12.25 00:18:00 -
[4]
As I understand it, it calculates the mining you do for the mining level by how many of the grav sites you despawn, sadly though to despawn one you have to strip it of all the ore it has. Which would be okay if every level gave you ONLY progressively better ore, but instead you get as much common ore in the bigger belts as you do the rarer more valuable ores, making it a hefty task to despawn even a few sigs daily.
There really should be a better way to calculate the volume of mining done in a system than simply despawning the grav belt, or a better way to despawn it than just mining every ounce of ore.
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Donald 01Miner
Minmatar
Raata Invicti
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Posted - 2009.12.25 00:40:00 -
[5]
yeah im sorry but this is just downright asanine.
I can go do ratting/military upgrades and you can basically fall asleep 23 hours aday have 1 or 2 guys rat for 2 hours and you get upgraded.
how could they be so grossly disproportionate :( that's like telling ratters they'd have to rat for 20 hours a day, killing 200k spawns instead of their 1.2 mil plus they're getting just for the hopes of geting the better grav sites :(
Cadet Donald_01miner (Mining & Transport) - Logistics Division - Hadean Drive Yards
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Mielono
Caldari
SWARTA
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Posted - 2009.12.25 13:41:00 -
[6]
I talked this math with someone else who made a post like this and to maintain a lvl 3 I think it took like 27 hulks mining 4 hours a day to put it into the region of sanity.
I think (and hope) CCP is looking at this already and will come up with a way of balancing the lvls while keeping a few humble miners from destroying the market (the only reason why I would think they would make it so hard to lvl a belt).
The thought on this is that its an effective way of forcing corps to move in large numbers of miners into single systems seeing as I have heard that the average is 1 miner per 10 players this would force mining op systems to have huge populations to sustain them as well as making miners a precious resource (which I hope people see us as).
Also keeping down the number of rats that need to be popped makes a certain amount of sense as well, since with mining there are several steps needed to make isk and it cannot be made directly, but with missioners or plex runners they earn a steady amount of isk just by popping ships and making bounty. So if I look at it as I think they are looking at it they are attempting to create large isk sinks in mining that produce the materials needed for the missioners/plexers in the same system so that small closed loop industries can be created per solar system.
The grand final effect I can see is hundreds of players per star system instead of hundreds stretched across mutliple systems. With each star system operating as its own individual city state surrounded by alliance city states each of them basically containing their own markets starbases and production centers. With the usual traders moving among the individual City States helping supply them.
Its an interesting try in the sandbox but until we can get the numbers per system needed for this effect there will be troubles.
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Kyle Cataclysm
Blue.
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Posted - 2009.12.25 17:34:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Kyle Cataclysm on 25/12/2009 17:35:50
 Originally by: Phoebus ApolloX
As I understand it, it calculates the mining you do for the mining level by how many of the grav sites you despawn, sadly though to despawn one you have to strip it of all the ore it has. Which would be okay if every level gave you ONLY progressively better ore, but instead you get as much common ore in the bigger belts as you do the rarer more valuable ores, making it a hefty task to despawn even a few sigs daily.
There really should be a better way to calculate the volume of mining done in a system than simply despawning the grav belt, or a better way to despawn it than just mining every ounce of ore.
Quotin devblog:
Quote:
The industrial index is based upon two activities taking place within your solar system. These are mining and mini-professions are based around the volume of ore mined and the successful use of hacking or archaeology modules within your space.
The volume of ore mined in grav sites and asteroid belts counts for the index.
edit: http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=711
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Phoebus ApolloX
Reasonable People
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Posted - 2009.12.25 18:01:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Phoebus ApolloX on 25/12/2009 18:01:32
Originally by: Kyle Cataclysm
Edited by: Kyle Cataclysm on 25/12/2009 17:35:50
Originally by: Phoebus ApolloX
As I understand it, it calculates the mining you do for the mining level by how many of the grav sites you despawn, sadly though to despawn one you have to strip it of all the ore it has. Which would be okay if every level gave you ONLY progressively better ore, but instead you get as much common ore in the bigger belts as you do the rarer more valuable ores, making it a hefty task to despawn even a few sigs daily.
There really should be a better way to calculate the volume of mining done in a system than simply despawning the grav belt, or a better way to despawn it than just mining every ounce of ore.
Quotin devblog:
Quote:
The industrial index is based upon two activities taking place within your solar system. These are mining and mini-professions are based around the volume of ore mined and the successful use of hacking or archaeology modules within your space.
The volume of ore mined in grav sites and asteroid belts counts for the index.
edit: http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=711
Sounds like then the best way to affect industry level isn't to mine all day at all then, it's to do some hacking and archaeology sites with those upgrades active, then when that activity boosts the industry level then the mining belts should also get better too.
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ZiYauRen
Gallente
RedShift Limited
Sang Do Oligarchic Democracy
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Posted - 2009.12.26 02:25:00 -
[9]
That would be cool except that the respawn on this stuff has been broken since deployment. There is a thread on it in sisi test feedback forum. We have a site we are doing tests on in sisi. Wiped all the sigs out the first day... including two hack sites. The mil indice went half way to level one, the industry indice didn't move, and we have had no respawns since. That was five days ago. Good Luck... CCP is asking for bug reports in the thread there.
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norty
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Posted - 2009.12.26 06:16:00 -
[10]
I'm pretty sure it's broken. Military index is **** easy to get to lvl 5 with just a few people ratting, mining is effectively impossible to get to lvl 5 and keep it there.
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Stardust Baltimore
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Posted - 2009.12.26 17:37:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Stardust Baltimore on 26/12/2009 17:38:10
No it is pretty much working as intended now, CCP realized that if these sites respawned every single day as they orginally said in the devblogs the markets would be so flooded with ABCM that once again we would be relying on carrier spawns to get any lowends at all. This way you are FORCED to finally mine out that lowend in your spawned grav sites. Once it is completely mined out pop it goes and here is another. (We tested this on a large site the other day and within 2 minutes there was a fresh Large Grav for everyone to enjoy.) So basically stop just mining out the ABCM and then complaining that the index isnt going up. Have the op go another hour and pop a few kernite or veldspar roids, you will see the index go up.
As to the Military going up faster than industry, of course it will, if you had as many miners in the gravs as you do ratters in the anoms the industry level would be skyrocketing.
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norty
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Posted - 2009.12.26 18:02:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Stardust Baltimore
Edited by: Stardust Baltimore on 26/12/2009 17:38:10
No it is pretty much working as intended now, CCP realized that if these sites respawned every single day as they orginally said in the devblogs the markets would be so flooded with ABCM that once again we would be relying on carrier spawns to get any lowends at all. This way you are FORCED to finally mine out that lowend in your spawned grav sites. Once it is completely mined out pop it goes and here is another. (We tested this on a large site the other day and within 2 minutes there was a fresh Large Grav for everyone to enjoy.) So basically stop just mining out the ABCM and then complaining that the index isnt going up. Have the op go another hour and pop a few kernite or veldspar roids, you will see the index go up.
As to the Military going up faster than industry, of course it will, if you had as many miners in the gravs as you do ratters in the anoms the industry level would be skyrocketing.
there's at least 2x as many miners as there are ratters, and wether your mining abcs or not doesn't matter as long as your mining. It still goes down way too fast, how do you plan on getting lvl 5 and keeping it exactly?
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Donald 01Miner
Minmatar
Raata Invicti
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Posted - 2009.12.26 22:02:00 -
[13]
Wow...reading this thread
what stupid ideas to say.
go mind all the veldspar and **** ass minerals in the roids and then profit and get more belts.
that's like ****ing telling ratters to go kill 50k rat spawns for a few days so you can upgrade military....i don't see them having to ****ing do that. what a moronic idea. if I wanted to ****ing mine veld I never woulda left empire moron...
and you have absolutely NO idea how long it would take small corps to mien out these roids...it's not like these veldspar and spod and **** asteroids are small...they're gigantic.
Cadet Donald_01miner (Mining & Transport) - Logistics Division - Hadean Drive Yards
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Future Mutant
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2009.12.26 23:59:00 -
[14]
A mining index that requires mining to raise it and keep it high!
ONOES WTF IT CANT BE! THAT MAKES NO SENSE!
Instead i propose that minerals are deposited into the personal hanger of everyone who is in nullsec for more then 1 hour every day. Because that makes more sense amrite?
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Mahai Ano
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2009.12.27 00:24:00 -
[15]
Don't be picky. You need to mine to keep the index, so mine! Even if it is just veld.
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Donald 01Miner
Minmatar
Raata Invicti
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Posted - 2009.12.27 00:49:00 -
[16]
I'd like to close this thread so idiots can't post here.
ok done! that's you 2 :)
I mean if you're going to be sarcastic...at least don't make a comment that makes you look stupid. Oh noooesss....I think you should have to do 100,000 isk wormholes for 4 days, so you can have access to the 2 bil ones. After all, that's what we have to do for mining amiright amiright
Cadet Donald_01miner (Mining & Transport) - Logistics Division - Hadean Drive Yards
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Aloriana Jacques
Amarr
Royal Amarr Institute
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Posted - 2009.12.27 01:47:00 -
[17]
They're being 100% candid though. The mining upgrades are working as intended. They're meant to be there for mining corps, not corps with part time industrialists.
I'm sorry, but if you don't like it you need to suck it up and adapt to current trends and stop calling everyone who's explained the situation to you idiots because they don't agree with you that that it mining should be the same as everything else. If you're so disgusted, go rat instead of mine and leave the roids to the real miners.
- - -
Aloriana Jacques - Skill Sheet
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Donald 01Miner
Minmatar
Raata Invicti
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Posted - 2009.12.27 02:03:00 -
[18]
love how the idiots who always say **** like this are the ones that think you should have to be part of a 500 man alliance to be able to mine in this game.
save your stupid opinions for yourself, it's broken. getting military 5 in 1 day is ****ing broken, or if not, being impossible to get industry 5 sure as hell is.
Cadet Donald_01miner (Mining & Transport) - Logistics Division - Hadean Drive Yards
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Angus McSpork
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.12.27 02:34:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Donald 01Miner
Wow...reading this thread
what stupid ideas to say.
go mind all the veldspar and **** ass minerals in the roids and then profit and get more belts.
that's like ****ing telling ratters to go kill 50k rat spawns for a few days so you can upgrade military....i don't see them having to ****ing do that. what a moronic idea. if I wanted to ****ing mine veld I never woulda left empire moron...
and you have absolutely NO idea how long it would take small corps to mien out these roids...it's not like these veldspar and spod and **** asteroids are small...they're gigantic.
Seriously, its just a game. Calm down.
Secondly, did it occur to you that a system with only a few belts would be harder to upgrade than one with, say, 14-20+ belts?
Thirdly, just because you don't like people's answers does not mean they are stupid or morons so get off your high-horse.
At the moment you can either (a) whine about it some more, (b) pick a different 0.0 system or (c) go back to empire.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.12.27 09:12:00 -
[20]
Maybe you guys haven't noticed it, but ratters are crying that the anomalies upgrades at level 5 go this way:
4 level 1 anomalies
4 level 2
4 level 3
4 level 4
4 level 5
And that the level 5 and some level 4 give good isk, but you need to do much more then the level 4 and 5 to keep the index (unless you are already in good ratting country).
To make it clearer: ratters have the equivalent of the low sec ores in the level 3 anomalies and the equivalent of high sec ores in the level 1 and 2 anomalies.
Don't seem so different from your situation.
For them keeping the index up is easier because there are players ratting the belts constantly and (maybe) because they started crying first and CCP reduced requirement a bit.
Try the crying part.
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Mikelangelo
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.12.27 18:02:00 -
[21]
How about, you pay REAL miners to come and upgrade your index for you for you?
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norty
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Posted - 2009.12.27 18:13:00 -
[22]
Edited by: norty on 27/12/2009 18:13:47
I'm going to stop caring about this because apparently tons of people who have never used it and probably live in empire have their opinions made up about it. Hopefully it'll be fixed, if not then I don't see anyone no matter how many miners you have ever getting level 5. Level 4 forever ;p
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Jubal Sexton
Minmatar
Liberty Storm
Unorthodox Solution
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Posted - 2009.12.28 06:45:00 -
[23]
From an Industrial stand point if a miner isnt mining veld ie... clearing the belt he isnt doing his job empires aren't built on ABCM alone
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Sigras
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Posted - 2009.12.28 07:33:00 -
[24]
My question is, what did you have before the upgrades? Nothing you don't have now. Ie your situation hasn't gotten any worse.
I suppose if you don't like 0.0 you can go back to high sec but guess what you'll be mining there?
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Komi Toran
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Posted - 2009.12.28 08:47:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Maybe you guys haven't noticed it, but ratters are crying that the anomalies upgrades at level 5 go this way:
4 level 1 anomalies
4 level 2
4 level 3
4 level 4
4 level 5
And that the level 5 and some level 4 give good isk, but you need to do much more then the level 4 and 5 to keep the index (unless you are already in good ratting country).
Who is crying about this? I ask mainly because a) the progression you describe does not exist and b) as new anomalies spawn almost the instant you clear them, you can keep running the high-end ones and never run out, and maintain your military level. In other words, people who are crying about what you posted are complete idiots, if they exist at all.
Now, some have been complaining that the high-end sites are so limited that they do not live up to CCP's claim of level 4 income in a system supporting 50 players, but that's completely different than and unrelated to a complaint regarding maintaining the system's development index.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.12.28 12:01:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Komi Toran
Who is crying about this? I ask mainly because a) the progression you describe does not exist and b) as new anomalies spawn almost the instant you clear them, you can keep running the high-end ones and never run out, and maintain your military level. In other words, people who are crying about what you posted are complete idiots, if they exist at all.
Several people in posts about anomalies payout say that the progression is the one I reported.
Try a bit of the relevant threads you should find several posts.
Out of curiosity, someone has tried industrial index ping-pong?
I mean, getting the index to 3, clear the good minerals from that belt while leaving enough decent minerals to rise the index from 2 to 3 in the lower quality belts, then leaving the index degrade to level 2 and mine enough minerals to get the index again to 3 just before DT?
That way the 3rd belt should despawn as soon as the index go below 3 and respawn at DT if the index is above 3 or more. so you would get a new belt every day.
Even simpler if you have several sovereign system place level 1 or 2 industrial upgrade in each of them, clear the belt of good minerals and then let the index degrade to 0.
When the regular belt mineral respawn mine them before DT rising the index for a time. At DT the industrial index spawn its belts and you get to mine them. Then you let it degrade again.
Not as good as clearing the belt regularly, but at least you get some extra belt after the regular minerals despawn.
Naturally there is a problem if you regularly have a mining op just before DT and another just after DT in some specific day of the week but it will allow you to get a bit more minerals without the need of a constant upkeep of the index (and so of mining low ends).
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mr passie
Minmatar
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.12.28 12:35:00 -
[27]
ok here's a useful tip then (which I haven't actuallt tried out, I'll let someone else do the dirty work hahaha):
try and recruit some miners form other timezones. I mean with one guy mining in your off tz the lvl won't go up much but it defo won't go down (can anyone verify this). it should help if you mine with less ppl over a longer time then everyone all at once as the index level won't drop.
maybe a trick would even be to go to sleep with 2 throwaway ships staying logged on (throwaway in case of pirates) one with a perma tank and one mining hauler. you never know if/how long they will last but they might just keep the sov lvl steady long enough to prevent decay.
basically its the pve version of the golden pvp nerf rule, adapt or die....
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Lord Helghast
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Posted - 2009.12.28 21:07:00 -
[28]
THIS IS HOW ITS MEANT TO WORK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If you want the awesome grav sites, and u want mucho sites, then you and your corp/alliance need to get off their asses and invite in some of those highsec carebear corps and members and offer them protection in exchange for ability to mine in your belts, and since they will be cleaning out belts with you ... tada. you get industry level higher...
Industry 3-4-5 arent meant for some lil group of 4 miners in hulks mining 20 hours, its meant for 30-50 hulks all mining at random times throughout the day 24/7 clearing out belts.
This was the whole point, the problem you guys are having is you want to keep your small corps and pvp alliances with no carebears and still get industry V for the few miners you do have, thats not how it works, hire some more members, ally with some more corps and invite them to mine...
if you dont know any hell msg me ingame my corps got several miners dieing to get into a safe nullsec area with protection to help with industry.
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KaiserSoze434
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Posted - 2009.12.28 22:19:00 -
[29]
Have any mining corps tried massive recruiting of non-uber carebears? Empire is full of these poor bastards trying to jetcan and all kinds of silliness. If you're securing your system (you are, right?) why not get these guys out there grinding away. Sure they aren't going to grace nullsec with their massive hulk mining epeens but every m3 they pull in a retriever or whatever is one less you have to to get the index up. There's a corp right now advertising of forums to follow other mining corps around and strip their belts as a form of pvp, hire them to come strip your belts of the ore you don't want. Sell the rights for haulers to come in and take the low end ores you are just mining for index. Not only does a system with miners of all skill levels and ship types buzzing around sound pretty cool (if you like that sort of thing), but closer to what CCP wanted anyway. Certainly more than a hulk fleet out there pouting with their arms crossed. Fly through empire and offer every bear mining veldspar to come do it in your system, maybe throw in access to mining foreman bonuses to sweeten the pot. Innovation and teamwork is the only thing that could possibly make mining remotely bearable anyway, why fight it?
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Nairb Ecrep
Mercurialis Inc.
Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2009.12.29 10:01:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Nairb Ecrep on 29/12/2009 10:05:43
There are a lot of people posting in this thread, that obviously have no idea what they're talking about, and are not miners in 0.0
I've been a miner in 0.0 for several years, and have a few comments for this thread.
Corporations and Alliances that are installing and using these upgrades are (hopefully) full of people that are near the end-game of eve, PVP and making decent isk. Expecting these characters that can make 100-200M isk a day in the markets, 50M isk a hour killing NPCs or MUCH more running plexes, to make 7M an hour clearing out belts is just silly and not balanced.
There is a significant investment in time and resources to hold and defend space, and telling people to mine crappy low ends for a pitance of isk, makes no sense.
There are several solutions to this that I've discussed with other 0.0 miners, and I'll submit our suggestions (any one would help, they all aren't meant to be done together):
1. Soften the decay rate, making it easier to maintain level 4 and potentially level 5. Military is insanely easy to maintain compared to industry.
2. Reduce the waiting period on the respawn timer from four downtimes, to two. This would allow people that want to mine to maintain the index, something worthwhile to mine (a good concept I think).
3. Make multiple belts spawn according to the level installed. Say at level 2, 2 small belts and one medium belt spawn. Then at level 3, 2 small, 2 medium, 1 large. This would be akin to increasing the number of anomalies that CCP did when people complained it wouldn't be viable (something people are doing now).
4. Removing/reducing the low/medium end ores so that it is reasonable to mine out the belt to get it to respawn. I would think the higher you went in level (the better/best belts) would have almost no crappy ore.
I'm very frustrated by some of the responses, as they show a fundamental lack of understanding regarding 0.0 and mining. I'm similarly frustrated that I don't believe CCP understands that they are currently not viable, and need to be adjusted.
Either way, I'm hopefully this is being looked at by CCP staff. The isk/hour is currently out of line with the other activities in 0.0 if you have to mine the low end ore in the belts. So much so, that it makes these upgrades near useless, once the novelty of them wears off and people tire of mining a hopelessly impossible index to sustain.
Edit: grammar
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