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almost out of ore - level 2 industry falling to 1 wtf

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Donald 01Miner Minmatar Raata Invicti	Posted - 2009.12.24 23:26:00 - [1] So we're in a system with 4-5 belts, not a lot yeah for a 0.0 but they're pretty good belts. we upgrade the place via mining ops and pretty steady mining all the way to 2, where it's become pretty stagnant. Apparently we don't have enough 24/7 miners (wtf) to raise it to 3 and get another, better belt, and yet somehow, even keeping all 4 mining belts ****d of any decent minerals, and mining the 2 builts which seem to reset every 3 days instead of every night like ccp promised, we can barely keep our node up, even putting in hard core hours (keep it at 2). wtf is up with this? our miners are going crazy out here putting big time hours in hulks just to keep these crappy belts up, that we pop roids in very very quickly, meanwhile ratters in this system or any other system barely have to sneeze and military goes to 5. is this intentional and dear god why? We can't even sleep at night without the index dropping like 20% and we spend the entire day raising it back up. We're to the point we have to start mining low end ore just to keep it from falling hoping that some damned roids will respawn so we can do abc again. anyone else noticing this? It's not a prob for corps in systems with like 30 belts of abc, but that's few and far between. Cadet Donald_01miner (Mining & Transport) - Logistics Division - Hadean Drive Yards
Tau Cabalander Caldari	Posted - 2009.12.24 23:44:00 - [2] Edited by: Tau Cabalander on 24/12/2009 23:45:54 Have you tried scanning for hidden belts? Also upgraded belts re-pop faster, but only when mined completely out. ... at least from what I've read so far.
Donald 01Miner Minmatar Raata Invicti	Posted - 2009.12.24 23:48:00 - [3] of course we've scanned for belts, we mine both of them, and why would ccp expect us to have to mind the damned veldspar and crap just to MAINTAIN these extra belts? point is, i can go rat for an hour and upgrade military but i can mine for 20 hours and just keep 'industry' even. this is ridiculous Cadet Donald_01miner (Mining & Transport) - Logistics Division - Hadean Drive Yards
Phoebus ApolloX Reasonable People	Posted - 2009.12.25 00:18:00 - [4] As I understand it, it calculates the mining you do for the mining level by how many of the grav sites you despawn, sadly though to despawn one you have to strip it of all the ore it has. Which would be okay if every level gave you ONLY progressively better ore, but instead you get as much common ore in the bigger belts as you do the rarer more valuable ores, making it a hefty task to despawn even a few sigs daily. There really should be a better way to calculate the volume of mining done in a system than simply despawning the grav belt, or a better way to despawn it than just mining every ounce of ore.
Donald 01Miner Minmatar Raata Invicti	Posted - 2009.12.25 00:40:00 - [5] yeah im sorry but this is just downright asanine. I can go do ratting/military upgrades and you can basically fall asleep 23 hours aday have 1 or 2 guys rat for 2 hours and you get upgraded. how could they be so grossly disproportionate :( that's like telling ratters they'd have to rat for 20 hours a day, killing 200k spawns instead of their 1.2 mil plus they're getting just for the hopes of geting the better grav sites :( Cadet Donald_01miner (Mining & Transport) - Logistics Division - Hadean Drive Yards
Mielono Caldari SWARTA	Posted - 2009.12.25 13:41:00 - [6] I talked this math with someone else who made a post like this and to maintain a lvl 3 I think it took like 27 hulks mining 4 hours a day to put it into the region of sanity. I think (and hope) CCP is looking at this already and will come up with a way of balancing the lvls while keeping a few humble miners from destroying the market (the only reason why I would think they would make it so hard to lvl a belt). The thought on this is that its an effective way of forcing corps to move in large numbers of miners into single systems seeing as I have heard that the average is 1 miner per 10 players this would force mining op systems to have huge populations to sustain them as well as making miners a precious resource (which I hope people see us as). Also keeping down the number of rats that need to be popped makes a certain amount of sense as well, since with mining there are several steps needed to make isk and it cannot be made directly, but with missioners or plex runners they earn a steady amount of isk just by popping ships and making bounty. So if I look at it as I think they are looking at it they are attempting to create large isk sinks in mining that produce the materials needed for the missioners/plexers in the same system so that small closed loop industries can be created per solar system. The grand final effect I can see is hundreds of players per star system instead of hundreds stretched across mutliple systems. With each star system operating as its own individual city state surrounded by alliance city states each of them basically containing their own markets starbases and production centers. With the usual traders moving among the individual City States helping supply them. Its an interesting try in the sandbox but until we can get the numbers per system needed for this effect there will be troubles.
Kyle Cataclysm Blue.	Posted - 2009.12.25 17:34:00 - [7] Edited by: Kyle Cataclysm on 25/12/2009 17:35:50 Originally by: Phoebus ApolloX As I understand it, it calculates the mining you do for the mining level by how many of the grav sites you despawn, sadly though to despawn one you have to strip it of all the ore it has. Which would be okay if every level gave you ONLY progressively better ore, but instead you get as much common ore in the bigger belts as you do the rarer more valuable ores, making it a hefty task to despawn even a few sigs daily. There really should be a better way to calculate the volume of mining done in a system than simply despawning the grav belt, or a better way to despawn it than just mining every ounce of ore. Quotin devblog: Quote: The industrial index is based upon two activities taking place within your solar system. These are mining and mini-professions are based around the volume of ore mined and the successful use of hacking or archaeology modules within your space. The volume of ore mined in grav sites and asteroid belts counts for the index. edit: http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=711
Phoebus ApolloX Reasonable People	Posted - 2009.12.25 18:01:00 - [8] Edited by: Phoebus ApolloX on 25/12/2009 18:01:32 Originally by: Kyle Cataclysm Edited by: Kyle Cataclysm on 25/12/2009 17:35:50 Originally by: Phoebus ApolloX As I understand it, it calculates the mining you do for the mining level by how many of the grav sites you despawn, sadly though to despawn one you have to strip it of all the ore it has. Which would be okay if every level gave you ONLY progressively better ore, but instead you get as much common ore in the bigger belts as you do the rarer more valuable ores, making it a hefty task to despawn even a few sigs daily. There really should be a better way to calculate the volume of mining done in a system than simply despawning the grav belt, or a better way to despawn it than just mining every ounce of ore. Quotin devblog: Quote: The industrial index is based upon two activities taking place within your solar system. These are mining and mini-professions are based around the volume of ore mined and the successful use of hacking or archaeology modules within your space. The volume of ore mined in grav sites and asteroid belts counts for the index. edit: http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=711 Sounds like then the best way to affect industry level isn't to mine all day at all then, it's to do some hacking and archaeology sites with those upgrades active, then when that activity boosts the industry level then the mining belts should also get better too.
ZiYauRen Gallente RedShift Limited Sang Do Oligarchic Democracy	Posted - 2009.12.26 02:25:00 - [9] That would be cool except that the respawn on this stuff has been broken since deployment. There is a thread on it in sisi test feedback forum. We have a site we are doing tests on in sisi. Wiped all the sigs out the first day... including two hack sites. The mil indice went half way to level one, the industry indice didn't move, and we have had no respawns since. That was five days ago. Good Luck... CCP is asking for bug reports in the thread there.
norty	Posted - 2009.12.26 06:16:00 - [10] I'm pretty sure it's broken. Military index is **** easy to get to lvl 5 with just a few people ratting, mining is effectively impossible to get to lvl 5 and keep it there.

Stardust Baltimore	Posted - 2009.12.26 17:37:00 - [11] Edited by: Stardust Baltimore on 26/12/2009 17:38:10 No it is pretty much working as intended now, CCP realized that if these sites respawned every single day as they orginally said in the devblogs the markets would be so flooded with ABCM that once again we would be relying on carrier spawns to get any lowends at all. This way you are FORCED to finally mine out that lowend in your spawned grav sites. Once it is completely mined out pop it goes and here is another. (We tested this on a large site the other day and within 2 minutes there was a fresh Large Grav for everyone to enjoy.) So basically stop just mining out the ABCM and then complaining that the index isnt going up. Have the op go another hour and pop a few kernite or veldspar roids, you will see the index go up. As to the Military going up faster than industry, of course it will, if you had as many miners in the gravs as you do ratters in the anoms the industry level would be skyrocketing.
norty	Posted - 2009.12.26 18:02:00 - [12] Originally by: Stardust Baltimore Edited by: Stardust Baltimore on 26/12/2009 17:38:10 No it is pretty much working as intended now, CCP realized that if these sites respawned every single day as they orginally said in the devblogs the markets would be so flooded with ABCM that once again we would be relying on carrier spawns to get any lowends at all. This way you are FORCED to finally mine out that lowend in your spawned grav sites. Once it is completely mined out pop it goes and here is another. (We tested this on a large site the other day and within 2 minutes there was a fresh Large Grav for everyone to enjoy.) So basically stop just mining out the ABCM and then complaining that the index isnt going up. Have the op go another hour and pop a few kernite or veldspar roids, you will see the index go up. As to the Military going up faster than industry, of course it will, if you had as many miners in the gravs as you do ratters in the anoms the industry level would be skyrocketing. there's at least 2x as many miners as there are ratters, and wether your mining abcs or not doesn't matter as long as your mining. It still goes down way too fast, how do you plan on getting lvl 5 and keeping it exactly?
Donald 01Miner Minmatar Raata Invicti	Posted - 2009.12.26 22:02:00 - [13] Wow...reading this thread what stupid ideas to say. go mind all the veldspar and ** ass minerals in the roids and then profit and get more belts. that's like ing telling ratters to go kill 50k rat spawns for a few days so you can upgrade military....i don't see them having to ing do that. what a moronic idea. if I wanted to ing mine veld I never woulda left empire moron... and you have absolutely NO idea how long it would take small corps to mien out these roids...it's not like these veldspar and spod and ** asteroids are small...they're gigantic. Cadet Donald_01miner (Mining & Transport) - Logistics Division - Hadean Drive Yards
Future Mutant Republic Military School	Posted - 2009.12.26 23:59:00 - [14] A mining index that requires mining to raise it and keep it high! ONOES WTF IT CANT BE! THAT MAKES NO SENSE! Instead i propose that minerals are deposited into the personal hanger of everyone who is in nullsec for more then 1 hour every day. Because that makes more sense amrite?
Mahai Ano Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2009.12.27 00:24:00 - [15] Don't be picky. You need to mine to keep the index, so mine! Even if it is just veld.
Donald 01Miner Minmatar Raata Invicti	Posted - 2009.12.27 00:49:00 - [16] I'd like to close this thread so idiots can't post here. ok done! that's you 2 :) I mean if you're going to be sarcastic...at least don't make a comment that makes you look stupid. Oh noooesss....I think you should have to do 100,000 isk wormholes for 4 days, so you can have access to the 2 bil ones. After all, that's what we have to do for mining amiright amiright Cadet Donald_01miner (Mining & Transport) - Logistics Division - Hadean Drive Yards
Aloriana Jacques Amarr Royal Amarr Institute	Posted - 2009.12.27 01:47:00 - [17] They're being 100% candid though. The mining upgrades are working as intended. They're meant to be there for mining corps, not corps with part time industrialists. I'm sorry, but if you don't like it you need to suck it up and adapt to current trends and stop calling everyone who's explained the situation to you idiots because they don't agree with you that that it mining should be the same as everything else. If you're so disgusted, go rat instead of mine and leave the roids to the real miners. - - - Aloriana Jacques - Skill Sheet
Donald 01Miner Minmatar Raata Invicti	Posted - 2009.12.27 02:03:00 - [18] love how the idiots who always say ** like this are the ones that think you should have to be part of a 500 man alliance to be able to mine in this game. save your stupid opinions for yourself, it's broken. getting military 5 in 1 day is **ing broken, or if not, being impossible to get industry 5 sure as hell is. Cadet Donald_01miner (Mining & Transport) - Logistics Division - Hadean Drive Yards
Angus McSpork Caldari	Posted - 2009.12.27 02:34:00 - [19] Originally by: Donald 01Miner Wow...reading this thread what stupid ideas to say. go mind all the veldspar and ** ass minerals in the roids and then profit and get more belts. that's like ing telling ratters to go kill 50k rat spawns for a few days so you can upgrade military....i don't see them having to ing do that. what a moronic idea. if I wanted to ing mine veld I never woulda left empire moron... and you have absolutely NO idea how long it would take small corps to mien out these roids...it's not like these veldspar and spod and ** asteroids are small...they're gigantic. Seriously, its just a game. Calm down. Secondly, did it occur to you that a system with only a few belts would be harder to upgrade than one with, say, 14-20+ belts? Thirdly, just because you don't like people's answers does not mean they are stupid or morons so get off your high-horse. At the moment you can either (a) whine about it some more, (b) pick a different 0.0 system or (c) go back to empire.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.12.27 09:12:00 - [20] Maybe you guys haven't noticed it, but ratters are crying that the anomalies upgrades at level 5 go this way: 4 level 1 anomalies 4 level 2 4 level 3 4 level 4 4 level 5 And that the level 5 and some level 4 give good isk, but you need to do much more then the level 4 and 5 to keep the index (unless you are already in good ratting country). To make it clearer: ratters have the equivalent of the low sec ores in the level 3 anomalies and the equivalent of high sec ores in the level 1 and 2 anomalies. Don't seem so different from your situation. For them keeping the index up is easier because there are players ratting the belts constantly and (maybe) because they started crying first and CCP reduced requirement a bit. Try the crying part.

Mikelangelo Gallente	Posted - 2009.12.27 18:02:00 - [21] How about, you pay REAL miners to come and upgrade your index for you for you?
norty	Posted - 2009.12.27 18:13:00 - [22] Edited by: norty on 27/12/2009 18:13:47 I'm going to stop caring about this because apparently tons of people who have never used it and probably live in empire have their opinions made up about it. Hopefully it'll be fixed, if not then I don't see anyone no matter how many miners you have ever getting level 5. Level 4 forever ;p
Jubal Sexton Minmatar Liberty Storm Unorthodox Solution	Posted - 2009.12.28 06:45:00 - [23] From an Industrial stand point if a miner isnt mining veld ie... clearing the belt he isnt doing his job empires aren't built on ABCM alone
Sigras	Posted - 2009.12.28 07:33:00 - [24] My question is, what did you have before the upgrades? Nothing you don't have now. Ie your situation hasn't gotten any worse. I suppose if you don't like 0.0 you can go back to high sec but guess what you'll be mining there?
Komi Toran	Posted - 2009.12.28 08:47:00 - [25] Originally by: Venkul Mul Maybe you guys haven't noticed it, but ratters are crying that the anomalies upgrades at level 5 go this way: 4 level 1 anomalies 4 level 2 4 level 3 4 level 4 4 level 5 And that the level 5 and some level 4 give good isk, but you need to do much more then the level 4 and 5 to keep the index (unless you are already in good ratting country). Who is crying about this? I ask mainly because a) the progression you describe does not exist and b) as new anomalies spawn almost the instant you clear them, you can keep running the high-end ones and never run out, and maintain your military level. In other words, people who are crying about what you posted are complete idiots, if they exist at all. Now, some have been complaining that the high-end sites are so limited that they do not live up to CCP's claim of level 4 income in a system supporting 50 players, but that's completely different than and unrelated to a complaint regarding maintaining the system's development index.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.12.28 12:01:00 - [26] Originally by: Komi Toran Who is crying about this? I ask mainly because a) the progression you describe does not exist and b) as new anomalies spawn almost the instant you clear them, you can keep running the high-end ones and never run out, and maintain your military level. In other words, people who are crying about what you posted are complete idiots, if they exist at all. Several people in posts about anomalies payout say that the progression is the one I reported. Try a bit of the relevant threads you should find several posts. Out of curiosity, someone has tried industrial index ping-pong? I mean, getting the index to 3, clear the good minerals from that belt while leaving enough decent minerals to rise the index from 2 to 3 in the lower quality belts, then leaving the index degrade to level 2 and mine enough minerals to get the index again to 3 just before DT? That way the 3rd belt should despawn as soon as the index go below 3 and respawn at DT if the index is above 3 or more. so you would get a new belt every day. Even simpler if you have several sovereign system place level 1 or 2 industrial upgrade in each of them, clear the belt of good minerals and then let the index degrade to 0. When the regular belt mineral respawn mine them before DT rising the index for a time. At DT the industrial index spawn its belts and you get to mine them. Then you let it degrade again. Not as good as clearing the belt regularly, but at least you get some extra belt after the regular minerals despawn. Naturally there is a problem if you regularly have a mining op just before DT and another just after DT in some specific day of the week but it will allow you to get a bit more minerals without the need of a constant upkeep of the index (and so of mining low ends).
mr passie Minmatar Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.12.28 12:35:00 - [27] ok here's a useful tip then (which I haven't actuallt tried out, I'll let someone else do the dirty work hahaha): try and recruit some miners form other timezones. I mean with one guy mining in your off tz the lvl won't go up much but it defo won't go down (can anyone verify this). it should help if you mine with less ppl over a longer time then everyone all at once as the index level won't drop. maybe a trick would even be to go to sleep with 2 throwaway ships staying logged on (throwaway in case of pirates) one with a perma tank and one mining hauler. you never know if/how long they will last but they might just keep the sov lvl steady long enough to prevent decay. basically its the pve version of the golden pvp nerf rule, adapt or die....
Lord Helghast	Posted - 2009.12.28 21:07:00 - [28] THIS IS HOW ITS MEANT TO WORK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If you want the awesome grav sites, and u want mucho sites, then you and your corp/alliance need to get off their asses and invite in some of those highsec carebear corps and members and offer them protection in exchange for ability to mine in your belts, and since they will be cleaning out belts with you ... tada. you get industry level higher... Industry 3-4-5 arent meant for some lil group of 4 miners in hulks mining 20 hours, its meant for 30-50 hulks all mining at random times throughout the day 24/7 clearing out belts. This was the whole point, the problem you guys are having is you want to keep your small corps and pvp alliances with no carebears and still get industry V for the few miners you do have, thats not how it works, hire some more members, ally with some more corps and invite them to mine... if you dont know any hell msg me ingame my corps got several miners dieing to get into a safe nullsec area with protection to help with industry.
KaiserSoze434	Posted - 2009.12.28 22:19:00 - [29] Have any mining corps tried massive recruiting of non-uber carebears? Empire is full of these poor bastards trying to jetcan and all kinds of silliness. If you're securing your system (you are, right?) why not get these guys out there grinding away. Sure they aren't going to grace nullsec with their massive hulk mining epeens but every m3 they pull in a retriever or whatever is one less you have to to get the index up. There's a corp right now advertising of forums to follow other mining corps around and strip their belts as a form of pvp, hire them to come strip your belts of the ore you don't want. Sell the rights for haulers to come in and take the low end ores you are just mining for index. Not only does a system with miners of all skill levels and ship types buzzing around sound pretty cool (if you like that sort of thing), but closer to what CCP wanted anyway. Certainly more than a hulk fleet out there pouting with their arms crossed. Fly through empire and offer every bear mining veldspar to come do it in your system, maybe throw in access to mining foreman bonuses to sweeten the pot. Innovation and teamwork is the only thing that could possibly make mining remotely bearable anyway, why fight it?
Nairb Ecrep Mercurialis Inc. Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.12.29 10:01:00 - [30] Edited by: Nairb Ecrep on 29/12/2009 10:05:43 There are a lot of people posting in this thread, that obviously have no idea what they're talking about, and are not miners in 0.0 I've been a miner in 0.0 for several years, and have a few comments for this thread. Corporations and Alliances that are installing and using these upgrades are (hopefully) full of people that are near the end-game of eve, PVP and making decent isk. Expecting these characters that can make 100-200M isk a day in the markets, 50M isk a hour killing NPCs or MUCH more running plexes, to make 7M an hour clearing out belts is just silly and not balanced. There is a significant investment in time and resources to hold and defend space, and telling people to mine crappy low ends for a pitance of isk, makes no sense. There are several solutions to this that I've discussed with other 0.0 miners, and I'll submit our suggestions (any one would help, they all aren't meant to be done together): 1. Soften the decay rate, making it easier to maintain level 4 and potentially level 5. Military is insanely easy to maintain compared to industry. 2. Reduce the waiting period on the respawn timer from four downtimes, to two. This would allow people that want to mine to maintain the index, something worthwhile to mine (a good concept I think). 3. Make multiple belts spawn according to the level installed. Say at level 2, 2 small belts and one medium belt spawn. Then at level 3, 2 small, 2 medium, 1 large. This would be akin to increasing the number of anomalies that CCP did when people complained it wouldn't be viable (something people are doing now). 4. Removing/reducing the low/medium end ores so that it is reasonable to mine out the belt to get it to respawn. I would think the higher you went in level (the better/best belts) would have almost no crappy ore. I'm very frustrated by some of the responses, as they show a fundamental lack of understanding regarding 0.0 and mining. I'm similarly frustrated that I don't believe CCP understands that they are currently not viable, and need to be adjusted. Either way, I'm hopefully this is being looked at by CCP staff. The isk/hour is currently out of line with the other activities in 0.0 if you have to mine the low end ore in the belts. So much so, that it makes these upgrades near useless, once the novelty of them wears off and people tire of mining a hopelessly impossible index to sustain. Edit: grammar

Nairb Ecrep Mercurialis Inc. Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.12.29 10:13:00 - [31] One further comment, in the off chance that a CCP employee is reading this: If the universe is examined to look for instances where it would be thought this upgrade is "successful", keep in mind that in systems that have high end ores already in the belts, people mining that ore is also going to boost the activity level. Instead of allowing for a more even playing field (the ability to make a useless system useful), all that the current system will do is make valuable mining areas more valuable, and not facilitate having more people in 0.0/create a new income source (the original point of these upgrades). Please look at this CCP, I have data we've been generating that I'd be more than happy to share/post if you're interested.
Micrihael Smith Caldari Nuclear Minds Inc.	Posted - 2009.12.29 13:19:00 - [32] As a fledgling nullsec operative, I have read this thread with some interest. It happens that the system I am in has about a dozen belts, all with Veld, Scor and Kern/omber, and a bit of Hemo. On the basis of the first few posts, I might as well give up, and go back to 0.9 space. My initial reaction was one of " what are we complaining about - you either mine everything in sight, or you aren't mining". That seems to be the way of things in 0.9 space, so why not here? Then it occurred to me that the minerals are not being used at the rate they are in hisec...unless your corp is actually (Jovians forbid) doing something with the stuff! The various minerals are there to be used to make things with - nullsec "simply" allows you to make more things, as there are more of the rare ores actually to hand. Iirc, way back, that's the way the game started? Surely it is both the Manufacturing AND the Mining activities which together affect your Industry rating? If that is the case, well, if you aren't at least making your own ammo in nullsec, I need to come over ( for a hefty consultancy fee, naturally) and tell you to. Every miner I have ever had the joy of working with ( no sarcasm in that at all... those long hours minding the machine lend themselves to all manner of intellectual stretching, either reading, debating, learning new languages...) loves to pwn belts. End of argument...the careyest bear gets a huge smack of the happystick when that last roid pops...then they stretch, get a cup of tea/coffee/vodka, and go to the next belt. I can see no argument in any of the earlier posts to support the idea that nullsec mining can/should be any different. So, at the end of the thread we see the three preceding posts which actually examine the real, underlying issues, both for nullsec, and for miners. There are many of us who still doggedly turn up, (I was about to type "in all weathers"), regardless of Rats/griefers/Hapless FC's, and cheerfully rip belts to nothing, but who remember the dark day when, after "When Carebears Attack " was posted on YouTube, the Hulk was emasculated, and the Profession of Prospector became a laughing-stock overnight. I was actually glad that the Character setup screens did away with the backstory elements...remember "..everybody loves a provider"? CCP cynically confirmed the pointlessness of the mining profession in that one nerf, and made miners even more pointless ( as demonstrated repeatedly in the minerals markets) when loot was recycled for higher amounts of minerals ( "to balance the game"). So where does that leave us now? CCP has to sort out the mining ships, I believe. CCP has to sort out the spawn cycle and development issues given above. We have to use our heads, and start using what we have, manufacture in the nullsec systems, and create and nurture markets there. We have to deploy our recruiters and trainers more wisely. Nullsec mining requires an ability to defend yourself, especially with the price of Hulks now nearing 200 million - how many new miners to nullsec can soak that kind of loss up? We have to learn to use the Fleet skills, new and old, in mining ops, in production line configuration, and in stablishing trade routes. We have to give up whingeing. I am a miner, but I will gladly pod any bastard that griefs me or my team. I am in nullsec, and the rules are not different, just enforced differntly. We have to remember that while Eve Online reflects many of the "Real World" issues and attributes, it is a game which we influence by playing it. We need to think about what we will do to grow next week, not what label we were given today. Mother said there'd be days like this.
Lord Helghast	Posted - 2009.12.29 15:11:00 - [33] Originally by: Nairb Ecrep Corporations and Alliances that are installing and using these upgrades are (hopefully) full of people that are near the end-game of eve, PVP and making decent isk. Expecting these characters that can make 100-200M isk a day in the markets, 50M isk a hour killing NPCs or MUCH more running plexes, to make 7M an hour clearing out belts is just silly and not balanced. No, thats the probably big ass alliances feeling all high and mighty and not recruiting the lolely new carebears or the new guy thats flying around in highsec with a fully fit covetor... The people *****ing about this are the people in alliances that refuse to change, they want to stay their big PVP gods and have no industrial/mining wing... Thats not the way to win anymore, you need a strong mining wing to supply your industrial wing, to supply your pvp wing with ships so that the pvp ships can protect the mining wing, its the damn circle of life Industrial Ratings and the belt bonuses arent meant to be endless uber ABC for the 4 uber miners that goonswarm happened to recruit, its meant to force big forces like goonswarm to devel a private industrial corp base of miners also... anyone ever play starcraft or any RTS? try winning a multiplayer match using 4 miners, and have successful match, its impossible. The damn decay rate is high to force larger industrial wings from different timezones in alliances. theirs nothing wrong with it, and the sooner alliances realize that the better things will be. Read around, a level 5 industry is like 10 of the best wormholes all in nullsec with local and intel channels, but to maintain that takes a well structured and built out industrial wing of an alliance, its an achievement not a right.
Nairb Ecrep Mercurialis Inc. Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.12.29 17:02:00 - [34] Originally by: Lord Helghast Originally by: Nairb Ecrep Corporations and Alliances that are installing and using these upgrades are (hopefully) full of people that are near the end-game of eve, PVP and making decent isk. Expecting these characters that can make 100-200M isk a day in the markets, 50M isk a hour killing NPCs or MUCH more running plexes, to make 7M an hour clearing out belts is just silly and not balanced. No, thats the probably big ass alliances feeling all high and mighty and not recruiting the lolely new carebears or the new guy thats flying around in highsec with a fully fit covetor... The people *****ing about this are the people in alliances that refuse to change, they want to stay their big PVP gods and have no industrial/mining wing... Thats not the way to win anymore, you need a strong mining wing to supply your industrial wing, to supply your pvp wing with ships so that the pvp ships can protect the mining wing, its the damn circle of life Industrial Ratings and the belt bonuses arent meant to be endless uber ABC for the 4 uber miners that goonswarm happened to recruit, its meant to force big forces like goonswarm to devel a private industrial corp base of miners also... anyone ever play starcraft or any RTS? try winning a multiplayer match using 4 miners, and have successful match, its impossible. The damn decay rate is high to force larger industrial wings from different timezones in alliances. theirs nothing wrong with it, and the sooner alliances realize that the better things will be. Read around, a level 5 industry is like 10 of the best wormholes all in nullsec with local and intel channels, but to maintain that takes a well structured and built out industrial wing of an alliance, its an achievement not a right. You again, talking our your arse about things that you know nothing about. Your post is full of assumptions that are wrong, and grandiose comments that just make you look silly. 2/10 troll post
Pulivin Motic Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2009.12.29 17:26:00 - [35] I dont really see the point in this hole upgrade your system thing in the first place. If you want good belts you take it from some one with a good belt. If you want good rats you take it from some one with good rats. It inspires an atmosphere of competition which I think we will loose when all of the systems are exactly the same all over 0.0.... Just my two cents.
Psaurin	Posted - 2009.12.30 03:19:00 - [36] Originally by: Lord Helghast then you and your corp/alliance need to get off their asses and invite in some of those highsec carebear corps and members I've seen this a few times, seems to end with an invite to mine in a quiet system followed by being jumped and massacred by a host of people that just invited you followed by taunting. With "friends" like this who needs enemies?
Nairb Ecrep Mercurialis Inc. Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.12.30 03:52:00 - [37] So back to the topic... We're going to attempt to upgrade them to level 4 to see if enough high ends spawn to maintain any type of level. We staggered the belt spawning so that small and medium spawn on day 1, then the large on day 3, not sure about the level 4 yet (doing this so we have the high ends spread out). I hear level 5 is almost impossible, but might give that a go and see if its possible to mine out the higher belts (have no idea of their composition at this point), and see if enough quantity of ore exists to maintain a level.
Sigras	Posted - 2009.12.30 05:23:00 - [38] Here's the long and short of it. Right now you're no worse off now than if there were no upgrades because guess what you're be mining then? The fact that they're not the "OMG-mining-ABC's-23/7-in-.01-true-sec-upgrades" you were expecting is your problem not CCP's. Also do you know what the upgrades you're talking about would do to megacyte and zydrine prices? If you're too good to mine low ends then go sit in the drone regions and mine the ABC's to your heart's content.
Nairb Ecrep Mercurialis Inc. Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.12.30 06:14:00 - [39] Originally by: Sigras Here's the long and short of it. Right now you're no worse off now than if there were no upgrades because guess what you're be mining then? The fact that they're not the "OMG-mining-ABC's-23/7-in-.01-true-sec-upgrades" you were expecting is your problem not CCP's. Also do you know what the upgrades you're talking about would do to megacyte and zydrine prices? If you're too good to mine low ends then go sit in the drone regions and mine the ABC's to your heart's content. Why do people who have no idea what they're talking about, insist on posting in this thread. If an upgrade isn't working or doesn't make sense, its everyone's problem, including CCP's. I never claimed it should be an OMG-mining whatever, I do think it should be balanced with 0.0 mining in general, and other 0.0 ISK generating activities. People (should) do things that bring them the most value for their effort. I'm not too good to mine low ends, I am however not going to mine A when it is more profitable to mine B. The point that is trying to be made here is that there is an expectation for 0.0 miners already. If you're going to implement a system to upgrade 0.0, it should probably resemble the expectation, not high security mining, which is completely different. WTF does drone regions have to do with the discussion. Just goes to show you're not a 0.0 resident. The prices of megacyte/zydrine would certainly be affected a little, but so what. They'll fluctuate for a variety of reasons. Here is an idea, remove level 4 mission loot, that'll balance it out. TBH unless you're in a 0.0 alliance with an upgraded belt, or have something constructive to add to the discussion, just stop posting. The flaming/trolling is getting out of hand.
Rip Minner Gallente Balthizar Drako Inc.	Posted - 2009.12.30 08:29:00 - [40] Ya its just a wild guess but I have the crazy ideal that Industry level probly Means you have to Build stuff in your system too. Now I am probly wrong but there is just this crazy naging voice in the back of my head saying this to me. Is it a rock? Point a Lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship? Point a Lazer at it and profit. I dont realy see any differnces here.

Nairb Ecrep Mercurialis Inc. Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.12.30 16:35:00 - [41] I haven't heard anything regarding building helping with activity, but tbh isn't a bad idea
Burnharder	Posted - 2009.12.30 18:00:00 - [42] Originally by: Nairb Ecrep I am however not going to mine A when it is more profitable to mine B. The point that is trying to be made here is that there is an expectation for 0.0 miners already. If you're going to implement a system to upgrade 0.0, it should probably resemble the expectation, not high security mining, which is completely different. Which gives me an idea.... Rather than have different asteroids dropping different minerals, all asteroids should be the same, with different probabilities for dropping various minerals. High sec would be very small chance of high-end mins and 0.0 highish chance of dropping high ends. Same with ice. That's my thought for the day
Ryuben Gallente Mercurialis Inc. Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.12.30 23:35:00 - [43] Originally by: Rip Minner Ya its just a wild guess but I have the crazy ideal that Industry level probly Means you have to Build stuff in your system too. Now I am probly wrong but there is just this crazy naging voice in the back of my head saying this to me. well your wrong issue is This isn't what CCP said it would be - needs addressing tbh
Zifrian Licentia Ex Vereor The Ascendent Dominion	Posted - 2010.01.23 20:07:00 - [44] Edited by: Zifrian on 23/01/2010 20:09:40 Bumping this thread to see if anyone has had any better improvement in industry levels, etc. Basically our corp has hit the same problem. We have dedicated miners to keep it at 3 but we are trying to come up with some system to get it higher. However, when the ABC is gone, there is little incentive to mine to get it higher. If I can do anomalies for 15mil an hour (level 5 of course), there isn't much ore to mine that can make 15mil or better. So there is no incentive to mine. Getting people to mine veldspar for the chance at getting abc ores from improved belts is never going to work when military upgrades so easily and is a guarantee of isk/hour. Not to mention not nearly worth the hassle of hauling and tanking. Nairb's ideas are pretty good and really get at the problem. One thing that would go really far I think is to redesign the hidden belt spawns. I ran into a small belt yesterday and there was a 250,000 unit Spuodomain roid. How is that "small"? 3 people mining that with good skills would take 12-14 hours. When you see veldspar with similar sizes, there is no real reason to mine out a belt. Another thing that would work out well is to reduce the amount of low end ores in higher level belts. If you are level 4, why should have to mine out veldspar to get to level 5? People go to 0.0 to get high end ores, not mine veldspar. The system should reflect that. Another thing I think people forget (or who don't have any 0.0 experience) is that you don't get perfect refine in 0.0 and logistics to get it to a market are much harder than empire. So whatever profits you have are all chewed up by hauling and other logistics. So what do people want to do? Mine veldspar in 0.0 for a huge pita, or do it in empire? There does need to be some balance between other upgrades.
Frank Corncob	Posted - 2010.01.23 23:04:00 - [45] Edited by: Frank Corncob on 23/01/2010 23:04:24 Originally by: Lord Helghast Originally by: Nairb Ecrep Corporations and Alliances that are installing and using these upgrades are (hopefully) full of people that are near the end-game of eve, PVP and making decent isk. Expecting these characters that can make 100-200M isk a day in the markets, 50M isk a hour killing NPCs or MUCH more running plexes, to make 7M an hour clearing out belts is just silly and not balanced. No, thats the probably big ass alliances feeling all high and mighty and not recruiting the lolely new carebears or the new guy thats flying around in highsec with a fully fit covetor... The people *****ing about this are the people in alliances that refuse to change, they want to stay their big PVP gods and have no industrial/mining wing... Thats not the way to win anymore, you need a strong mining wing to supply your industrial wing, to supply your pvp wing with ships so that the pvp ships can protect the mining wing, its the damn circle of life Industrial Ratings and the belt bonuses arent meant to be endless uber ABC for the 4 uber miners that goonswarm happened to recruit, its meant to force big forces like goonswarm to devel a private industrial corp base of miners also... anyone ever play starcraft or any RTS? try winning a multiplayer match using 4 miners, and have successful match, its impossible. The damn decay rate is high to force larger industrial wings from different timezones in alliances. theirs nothing wrong with it, and the sooner alliances realize that the better things will be. Read around, a level 5 industry is like 10 of the best wormholes all in nullsec with local and intel channels, but to maintain that takes a well structured and built out industrial wing of an alliance, its an achievement not a right. Zergling rushing in Starcraft is highly possible. The more miners you build the less effective it becomes. I get what your saying though, don't hate.
Stinkymeow	Posted - 2010.01.24 00:22:00 - [46] People still mine in 0.0 Find yourself a WH with a static hisec and C3/C4 (or find a corp that lives in one) and enjoy mining as much ACBM as you like. When you run out of gravs spend 20mins popping the hole and spawn yourself a bunch of fresh ones I lived in 0.0 for a long time but will never go back there for mining. I mean being able to mine as much ABCM as you like with no politics, no blobs and never more than 2 jumps away from hisec max refines, what else could you ask for? Just make sure to find a decent corp, ideally one with a rorqual and give it ago. Really once you understand the mechanice of living in WH space, its no more risky than living in 0.0 (quite the oppersite infact).
Servitor 001 Mr. Bill's Consortium Aegis Militia	Posted - 2010.01.24 09:53:00 - [47] The grav site do respawn shortly after clearing them out. Which is what they are sposed to do, but it does take a heck of a lot of work to make it happen. So maybe that is a little unbalanced. I know there is a system near me that was upgraded to lvl 3 fairly quickly, but hasnt moved beyond that yet despite having a good population of active miners almost 24/7. I dont think that these belts should just contain high ends either though. Empire allows access to certain resources, 0.0 allows access to those same resources PLUS others that either arent in or are rare in empire.
Dragonmede	Posted - 2010.01.24 11:28:00 - [48] Frustrating isn't it? The bottom line (as it always has been) is you need POPULATION in order to create and maintain INDUSTRY and ECONOMY. Sitting there in your backwater 0.0, greedily trying to keep it all for yourself does not cut it. You can't be a successful ruler/despot without minions. Your alts don't count. Face it, you need to increase and maintain population levels in your systems in order to get the benefits. If that is too scary for you, then HTFU. ...
Kraelog	Posted - 2010.01.24 16:29:00 - [49] I believe Dragonmede made the right point. In the mining system of my alliance we have managed to get the the industrial level to 4 (hello XL belt) and we are veeery slowly working towards level 5. However this required a lot of people. Saturday evening local was filled with around 70 people of which about 2/3 we're mining. I believe once we manage to get 100 people consistently in the system we will be able to get an industrial lvl 5. But yes this requires mining everything in the hidden belts and also doing a lot of hacking sites. For you information, a fleet of 12 miners in Hulks, Covetors & a few Retrievers moves the Industrial level 2% for each hour spent mining. So to get it to lvl 5 you do need quite a few people
ABC Hammerstein	Posted - 2010.01.24 19:35:00 - [50] Originally by: Nairb Ecrep Edited by: Nairb Ecrep on 29/12/2009 10:05:43 There are a lot of people posting in this thread, that obviously have no idea what they're talking about, and are not miners in 0.0 I've been a miner in 0.0 for several years, and have a few comments for this thread... ^ That's how it is from an experienced player. This is how it is from a noob... You want me to take my Hulk into unsecured 0.0 space to mine Veldspar? Bwa ha hahhahhahah! Good one!

Zifrian Licentia Ex Vereor The Ascendent Dominion	Posted - 2010.01.24 22:00:00 - [51] Edited by: Zifrian on 24/01/2010 22:01:06 Originally by: Kraelog I believe Dragonmede made the right point. In the mining system of my alliance we have managed to get the the industrial level to 4 (hello XL belt) and we are veeery slowly working towards level 5. However this required a lot of people. Saturday evening local was filled with around 70 people of which about 2/3 we're mining. I believe once we manage to get 100 people consistently in the system we will be able to get an industrial lvl 5. But yes this requires mining everything in the hidden belts and also doing a lot of hacking sites. For you information, a fleet of 12 miners in Hulks, Covetors & a few Retrievers moves the Industrial level 2% for each hour spent mining. So to get it to lvl 5 you do need quite a few people But the imbalance with anomalies is a problem. You can't convince people to come into a system to mine veldspar (see above) to raise levels when anomalies can pay far better. Not to mention Level 4 mission running or even high sec mining is easier and far less risk. Here's some numbers to consider (based on data in a previous thread): To hold level 4 you need about 55 people mining at 85k per hour m3 5 hours a day. To hold level 5 you need about 152 people mining the same rate and hours a day. How many people have to do anomalies a day to keep level 5? If they want to get people to go to 0.0 for industry, this isn't how to do it.
Kraelog	Posted - 2010.01.24 23:18:00 - [52] Edited by: Kraelog on 24/01/2010 23:19:30 Well this is just my personal experience, but we never mine any of the highsec ores. Simply mining ABC, Gneiss, Dark Ochre and perhaps Spodmiun has given us enough to get to lvl 4. For lvl 5 it's possible that we'll have to mine the lower ores but keep in mind the XL belt is huge and does provide a lot of good minerals. Nobody ever mines the regular belt tbh. However, I do not know precisely how many people are doing hacking sites so I can't be sure how much this contributes. Edit: 55 miners 5 hours a day for lvl 4 is complete rubbish. Perhaps If they're all in Retrievers with no boosts or with zero people doing sites, but even then that's a huge exageration.
Welikealts	Posted - 2010.01.25 00:42:00 - [53] Edited by: Welikealts on 25/01/2010 00:45:31 Originally by: Zifrian Edited by: Zifrian on 24/01/2010 22:01:06 Originally by: Kraelog I believe Dragonmede made the right point. In the mining system of my alliance we have managed to get the the industrial level to 4 (hello XL belt) and we are veeery slowly working towards level 5. However this required a lot of people. Saturday evening local was filled with around 70 people of which about 2/3 we're mining. I believe once we manage to get 100 people consistently in the system we will be able to get an industrial lvl 5. But yes this requires mining everything in the hidden belts and also doing a lot of hacking sites. For you information, a fleet of 12 miners in Hulks, Covetors & a few Retrievers moves the Industrial level 2% for each hour spent mining. So to get it to lvl 5 you do need quite a few people But the imbalance with anomalies is a problem. You can't convince people to come into a system to mine veldspar (see above) to raise levels when anomalies can pay far better. Not to mention Level 4 mission running or even high sec mining is easier and far less risk. Here's some numbers to consider (based on data in a previous thread): To hold level 4 you need about 55 people mining at 85k per hour m3 5 hours a day. To hold level 5 you need about 152 people mining the same rate and hours a day. How many people have to do anomalies a day to keep level 5? If they want to get people to go to 0.0 for industry, this isn't how to do it. And so this is somehow automatically a Sov Upgrade system problem? Not in any way the problem of miners mining too much crap in high-sec, nope, not at all... If they doubled the m3 of Ore (raw and refined) and doubled the mining rate (since its based on m3?), would this not go a decent way to promote localized mining? Making the logistics of minerals harder would encourage 0.0 industry, and hopefully make highsec mining less 'low work, low income' and more 'medium work, medium income'... Thoughts?
Jonny Monroe	Posted - 2010.01.25 04:29:00 - [54] You know you can view the development Indices on the world map right? try it right now, and count on 0 hands how many level 5 industrial systems exist. I like the concept of the nullsec guys needing to hire in industrial corps to get these levels up, but it either isn't working right now or isn't catching on very quickly.
Zifrian Licentia Ex Vereor The Ascendent Dominion	Posted - 2010.01.25 08:49:00 - [55] Edited by: Zifrian on 25/01/2010 08:53:53 Originally by: Kraelog Edited by: Kraelog on 24/01/2010 23:19:30 Well this is just my personal experience, but we never mine any of the highsec ores. Simply mining ABC, Gneiss, Dark Ochre and perhaps Spodmiun has given us enough to get to lvl 4. For lvl 5 it's possible that we'll have to mine the lower ores but keep in mind the XL belt is huge and does provide a lot of good minerals. Nobody ever mines the regular belt tbh. However, I do not know precisely how many people are doing hacking sites so I can't be sure how much this contributes. Edit: 55 miners 5 hours a day for lvl 4 is complete rubbish. Perhaps If they're all in Retrievers with no boosts or with zero people doing sites, but even then that's a huge exageration. Thanks for providing this experience. I haven't seen level 4 yet so those numbers are just based on some loosely based calcs from other people. If you are able to keep at level 4 with just those ores, then maybe the amounts are less. I'm not sure how it's working then but we don't get a lot of hacking/arch sites akaik. Originally by: Welikealts And so this is somehow automatically a Sov Upgrade system problem? Not in any way the problem of miners mining too much crap in high-sec, nope, not at all... If they doubled the m3 of Ore (raw and refined) and doubled the mining rate (since its based on m3?), would this not go a decent way to promote localized mining? Making the logistics of minerals harder would encourage 0.0 industry, and hopefully make highsec mining less 'low work, low income' and more 'medium work, medium income'... Thoughts? I might be missing your point, but it seems this is an imbalance to sov upgrades. As noted above, there aren't any level 5 systems that I've seen on the map. I've heard of one but never checked it out. Yet there are how many military 5 systems? I'm becoming more convinced this is about ticking off empire people running level 4's and mining empire ores than anything. They pay their subscriptions in far greater numbers than 0.0 miners, probably greater than 0.0 players tbh. If they allow better minerals to be mined in 0.0 that affects the prices in empire, then you get a lot of people not making the money they used to and thus not happy. Maybe they are looking to balance it out? Lot easier to just let 0.0 miners cry on the forums I would think. It's a drop in the bucket if they stop playing.
Kraelog	Posted - 2010.01.25 09:07:00 - [56] I believe it's CCP's goal to get a lot more people into 0.0. And this is one of the ways of achieving this. One reason that we have so many people in our industrial system is that all the corps involved are actively recruiting and a solid number of newbies also mine there. When you give a newbie the choice of either mining veldspar in highsec for 1m/h of mining ABC in 0.0 for x5 the profit, it's not very hard to convince them to go there. Sure you lose a ship once a week if its isn't a hulk, but we've got a large stockpiles of Retrievers so they can simply jump back into the belts when they lose one. It's very profitable for the new people and I think it's those kind of people CCP wants to get out of highsec more. For the more experienced players who are used to 20m/h+ it might not be a very fun choice, but there are loads of people for whom it is.
GIGAR Caldari Domini Umbrus DEFI4NT	Posted - 2010.01.25 10:12:00 - [57] Apparently, the industrial index is balanced around the fact that all 0.0 sec miners are macro miners who mine 23/7. I agree that the industrial index is ludicrous, and it needs some serious changing. -------------------------- 2 Years later, mining continues to be the most overlooked game mechanic in Eve
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2010.01.25 12:42:00 - [58] Originally by: Zifrian I'm becoming more convinced this is about ticking off empire people running level 4's and mining empire ores than anything. They pay their subscriptions in far greater numbers than 0.0 miners, probably greater than 0.0 players tbh. If they allow better minerals to be mined in 0.0 that affects the prices in empire, then you get a lot of people not making the money they used to and thus not happy. Maybe they are looking to balance it out? Lot easier to just let 0.0 miners cry on the forums I would think. It's a drop in the bucket if they stop playing. Seeing how an increase of the flow of high end minerals from 0.0 will decrease the value of high end and increase the value of low ends like tritanium (read about the mineral basket) your convinction is wrong.
Merkabah Shadowbane	Posted - 2010.01.25 18:34:00 - [59] This is easy to figure out. The only reason CCP would do this is it wants more miners in 0.0 and less in empire. So they made it so a 0.0 aliance needs far more miners to reap the benefits of upgraded systems then they can now field. Only feasible reason to make it require so many players. I doubt this is a mistake and seriously doubt it will get fixed soon/ever.
Zifrian Licentia Ex Vereor The Ascendent Dominion	Posted - 2010.01.25 19:28:00 - [60] Edited by: Zifrian on 25/01/2010 19:29:57 Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Zifrian I'm becoming more convinced this is about ticking off empire people running level 4's and mining empire ores than anything. They pay their subscriptions in far greater numbers than 0.0 miners, probably greater than 0.0 players tbh. If they allow better minerals to be mined in 0.0 that affects the prices in empire, then you get a lot of people not making the money they used to and thus not happy. Maybe they are looking to balance it out? Lot easier to just let 0.0 miners cry on the forums I would think. It's a drop in the bucket if they stop playing. Seeing how an increase of the flow of high end minerals from 0.0 will decrease the value of high end and increase the value of low ends like tritanium (read about the mineral basket) your convinction is wrong. You realize that 60% of minerals comes from missions right? Feel free to explain your logic though. Originally by: Merkabah Shadowbane This is easy to figure out. The only reason CCP would do this is it wants more miners in 0.0 and less in empire. So they made it so a 0.0 aliance needs far more miners to reap the benefits of upgraded systems then they can now field. Only feasible reason to make it require so many players. I doubt this is a mistake and seriously doubt it will get fixed soon/ever. So they make it harder for people to raise industry levels than military? Sure it's a bump but there is no incentive to mine over doing anything else in 0.0.

LHA Tarawa	Posted - 2010.01.25 20:07:00 - [61] My $.02... but I'm sure I'm just stupid. If you have to mine both high-end and low-end minerals to get/maintain industrial level, then wouldn't you average the numbers to figure out the per/hour. So, let's say as an example (and I have no idea if this is right) that you could make 50 million an hour mining high end 10 million an hour mining low end (and assuming equal m3 of each in a belt), then you're making, on average, 30 million. I wouldn't consider that too bad considering the mostly AFK nature of mining. It is certainly easier to do duel boxed than pve or pvp. What I find broken is the bare bones prices for minerals now where one of the more profitable professions is self-distructing ships and collecting on insurance. One of the great things about EVE is PVP, and that means causing others a really bad day (and on occasion having one yourself). But is it really a bad day when the insurance fully pays for the losses??? So, how do we get LESS minerals mined instead of more so that prices of minerals will increase. This will allow miners to make more money off the minerals they do mine, increase ship prices above the insurance fraud level, and make it actually financially painful to lose a ship. Or, I guess, we could just lower insurance payouts, remove insurance fraud as an escape mechanism for all these minerals, and watch mineral prices take another huge step down. Then you could mine ABCs all day, and sell them for the price VELD currently goes for.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2010.01.25 20:46:00 - [62] Originally by: Zifrian Edited by: Zifrian on 25/01/2010 19:29:57 Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Zifrian I'm becoming more convinced this is about ticking off empire people running level 4's and mining empire ores than anything. They pay their subscriptions in far greater numbers than 0.0 miners, probably greater than 0.0 players tbh. If they allow better minerals to be mined in 0.0 that affects the prices in empire, then you get a lot of people not making the money they used to and thus not happy. Maybe they are looking to balance it out? Lot easier to just let 0.0 miners cry on the forums I would think. It's a drop in the bucket if they stop playing. Seeing how an increase of the flow of high end minerals from 0.0 will decrease the value of high end and increase the value of low ends like tritanium (read about the mineral basket) your conviction is wrong. You realize that 60% of minerals comes from missions right? Feel free to explain your logic though. a) in august 2008 40% of minerals did come from reprocessing nodules and ships (not mission alone, but mineral compression modules, ship sold under mineral cost and even T2 stuff as the mineral produced did include morphite) Quote: This was the one month split for all items reprocessed measured mid-august to mid-september 2008. \|\| Mineral \|\| Ore% \|\| Loot% \|\| Drone Compounds% \|\| \|\|-----------\|\|------\|\|-------\|\|------------------\|\| \|\| Tritanium \|\| 46% \|\| 43% \|\| 11% \|\| \|\| Pyerite \|\| 29% \|\| 60% \|\| 10% \|\| \|\| Mexallon \|\| 30% \|\| 59% \|\| 11% \|\| \|\| Isogen \|\| 21% \|\| 56% \|\| 23% \|\| \|\| Nocxium \|\| 18% \|\| 32% \|\| 51% \|\| \|\| Zydrine \|\| 43% \|\| 18% \|\| 40% \|\| \|\| Megacyte \|\| 44% \|\| 39% \|\| 16% \|\| \|\| Morphite \|\| 77% \|\| 1% \|\| 22% \|\| * Ore is minerals from the asteroid ores * loot is modules, ships, charges, drones for example. * drone compounds are loot items from rogue drones If you think nothing has changed after 18 months, wormhole mining and a increase in veldspar in high ... well, it is your problem. b) I repeat, read how the mineral basked work. For a simple explanation, ship insurance price guarantee a minimal value for the total mineral used in ship construction. If high end "production" increase and price decrease more people start producing and self destructing ships for the insurance payout. The demand for low end increase (as the ship builders need lots of low end and high end are already available in quantity) so the price of low end increase. Total price of the ship stay the same, but the value of the component minerals shift in favour of the low ends.
Osprey Arrione Minmatar Texas Salvage	Posted - 2010.01.26 17:59:00 - [63] ill come to null sec and mine your veld. get me in game
Vilgan i'Lakin	Posted - 2010.01.27 03:02:00 - [64] Edited by: Vilgan i''Lakin on 27/01/2010 03:02:00 Quick question: it sounds like they fixed veldspar in 0.0 to not insta pop once you get your industry up? Is that true? I know I used to mine exclusively ABC when I was starting out because having to switch targets on every hulk CONSTANTLY was horrible. If there'd been super gigantic veldspar roids that I could sit on for an hour I wouldn't have minded hitting veldspar. Sure would have helped the whole "lets make capital ships!!" thing get off the ground, as NOBODY who used 3+ hulks was willing to endure the hell that was mining veldspar. 16-18 mil/hour/hulk? Sure, that's okay. Having to retarget every 2 minutes at each hulk and constantly having to reposition due to all roids popped? Definitely prefer to /wrist.
Onyth	Posted - 2010.01.27 17:03:00 - [65] Donald, if u don't want to mine any veld or other low end ores, then join a corp/alliance that has acces to normal belts with ABC ores in, otherwise... just mine what should be mined to maintain the index, or wait and don't do nothing whilst you hope for ccp to change the system. That're basically the only options you have.
Tractus Vesica Solaire Soldats	Posted - 2010.01.27 19:03:00 - [66] Originally by: Donald 01Miner So we're in a system with 4-5 belts, not a lot yeah for a 0.0 but they're pretty good belts. we upgrade the place via mining ops and pretty steady mining all the way to 2, where it's become pretty stagnant. Apparently we don't have enough 24/7 miners (wtf) to raise it to 3 and get another, better belt, and yet somehow, even keeping all 4 mining belts ****d of any decent minerals, and mining the 2 builts which seem to reset every 3 days instead of every night like ccp promised, we can barely keep our node up, even putting in hard core hours (keep it at 2). wtf is up with this? our miners are going crazy out here putting big time hours in hulks just to keep these crappy belts up, that we pop roids in very very quickly, meanwhile ratters in this system or any other system barely have to sneeze and military goes to 5. is this intentional and dear god why? We can't even sleep at night without the index dropping like 20% and we spend the entire day raising it back up. We're to the point we have to start mining low end ore just to keep it from falling hoping that some damned roids will respawn so we can do abc again. anyone else noticing this? It's not a prob for corps in systems with like 30 belts of abc, but that's few and far between. No idea. -------------------------------------------------------------- They call me crazy. I'm not one to argue.
Stardust Baltimore	Posted - 2010.02.26 04:48:00 - [67] Edited by: Stardust Baltimore on 26/02/2010 04:50:18 The long and the short of it is this: Yes ratters clear the smaller spawns along with the larger spawns. So why not take a few minutes to a couple hours to clear out the relatively small amounts of lowends found in the gravs. Unless ofc its the small with the 250k spod rock (we let the new members go crazy on that). For weeks now we have maintianed level 4 in a system where there are constant orca bonuses running with an average of 10 miners in system at all times. On average per day we respawn 1 Large Grav site and 1 moderate site and with a concerted effort we keep industry bouncing between 92-98% to level 5. Heres my problem: We can achieve level 5 with a bit of effort and maintain it all the way to downtime but during downtime it will degrade back to 96-98% level 4. Aside from being horrendously boring, in a moderate or large grav you hardly if ever need to move essentially mining whatever high ends are in reach until they are expired, if everyone in the belt continues onto the lowends and hacks away at it within a few hours you have a brand new fresh large or moderate grav to munch away on. So here are my gripes: 1. There is no way to see the percentage over level 5, so as to buffer it. 2. Levels should not degrade over DT. 3. If a site can immediately despawn if you lose a level of industry and the upgrade offlines, when it onlines while achieving a level the new levels site should also immediately spawn. 4. The people who gripe about having to mine lowends aren't producers they are just isk farming. The alliances that keep the indexes high are mining all the ore with the goal of building something with what they mine... Which right now means we just cant get enough kernite, even with killing these gravs we still have a massive mexallon shortage. It just seems people just want an endless supply of ABCM and they want to do it with 5 hulks. Its a challenge folks, and yes I am in a huge 0.0 alliance, and we have worked hard to attain what we have to this point. So if it takes a large alliance with a strong industry wing to achieve this, why should your upstart group be able to do it? I'm not trying to troll, it is what it is... again, just my 2p Ninja Edit: Hammered down the wall of text a bit.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2010.02.26 07:24:00 - [68] Originally by: Stardust Baltimore It just seems people just want an endless supply of ABCM and they want to do it with 5 hulks. Don't forget "while keeping the price of Zyd/Mega/Morph high".
Oriss Amarr	Posted - 2010.02.26 16:22:00 - [69] I would like to direct you all to the myriad of posts about mineral prices already being shot. If the changes you whinebears propose go through, say goodbye to the market. Supply > Demand already, let's make it worse amirite? Inb4 LOL YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.02.26 18:32:00 - [70] Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 26/02/2010 18:32:31 Same as above. Offer >> demand already. By making offer >>>>>>>>>>>>>> demand, mining is not going to get fixed. It's going to get Mega at 20 ISK pu instead. CCP want to make sure that 0.0 gets more corps (therefore the old "3 good systems per region" does not work) but also wants that those corps are not 23/7 scripted china farmers selectively picking ABC. As usual, those up for the challenge will win, the others will cry on the forums. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz

Mana Trim Neo T.E.C.H.	Posted - 2010.02.27 00:34:00 - [71] Originally by: Oriss Amarr Inb4 LOL YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT. LOL YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.
Kell Braugh Dawn of a new Empire The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.02.27 02:38:00 - [72] The mineral prices have not plummeted due to the dominion sov upgrades, they have plumeted due to the unending ABCM ored grav sites available in (deep deadend, 99% safe once you have a couple scouts out) wormhole systems that are farmed... Wormhole space is like dronelands squared as far as its effect on mineral prices in empire.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2010.02.27 07:33:00 - [73] Originally by: Kell Braugh The mineral prices have not plummeted due to the dominion sov upgrades, they have plumeted due to the unending ABCM ored grav sites available in (deep deadend, 99% safe once you have a couple scouts out) wormhole systems that are farmed... Wormhole space is like dronelands squared as far as its effect on mineral prices in empire. The last QUEN say it happened mostly in December. If that was because in October and November people was stockpiling for the coming expansion or because 0.0 upgrades make a difference is anyone guess.
Cipher Jones Minmatar	Posted - 2010.02.27 16:36:00 - [74] Originally by: Donald 01Miner I'd like to close this thread so idiots can't post here. ok done! that's you 2 :) I mean if you're going to be sarcastic...at least don't make a comment that makes you look stupid. Oh noooesss....I think you should have to do 100,000 isk wormholes for 4 days, so you can have access to the 2 bil ones. After all, that's what we have to do for mining amiright amiright You want your numbers then earn em. Dont cry coz you got an answer you didnt want to hear. -------------------------------------------------- We lost around 1.5b worth of tower, fuel and modules total. (Pause for amusement)
Giz S	Posted - 2010.02.28 05:22:00 - [75] If people want to keep complaining about the problem, why dont we just remove the mineral index all together? I mean, if they didnt add it, then you wouldnt have these belts to mine. Either stop complaining and just mine everything, or ask ccp to remove the industry index alltogether and you can just mine the regular belts in your systems.
EvilSource Amarr Ascendent. Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2010.04.13 22:32:00 - [76] seariously what are these idiots moaning about... find a -0.8 sys with 10+ belts and uprgade that!!! that way u got 10 ABC belts + hidden ... if u morons are trying to get upgrades in -0.1 systems u deserve to mine veld
Illectroculus Defined	Posted - 2010.04.14 23:03:00 - [77] Hey there's worse things than getting forced to mine veldspar to keep your industry index up, you could be forced to mine Jaspet.
John Adamantis Gallente Gangrel Mining and Security The Volition Cult	Posted - 2010.04.15 08:47:00 - [78] Edited by: John Adamantis on 15/04/2010 08:51:44 Well, I must say I have fully enjoyed reading this entire thread. For those of you complaining, please understand nothing I MEAN NOTHING in this game if you think about it unless you find an exploit is easy I'm a Director of a mining corparation that is about to drop the Level 5 Industy into the I Hub. we just past 75% last night. we will probly be the only mining corp in New eden that can maintain it as well. Simply because we have players that all they log on for is to mine. the corp is ****ing rich every miner hasn't used real money to play this game for months. they mine the low ends because they know it benifits them and the corp ITS CALLED TEAMWORK. Miners can be greedy but....only because now they have the chance to get rich....Level 5 here we come....hmmmmmmm king ark....... http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1301912
Eric Xallen	Posted - 2010.04.15 22:34:00 - [79] Want to move towards fixing wormhole mining? Make it so the sleepers respawn occasionally. In 0.0 the rats respawn all the time, making my mining interrupted and annoying. The sleepers, you kill them, grav site is free and clear. So making the sleepers respawn would definitely make mining less efficient in wormholes.
Sendara Amarri	Posted - 2010.04.16 15:54:00 - [80] Edited by: Sendara Amarri on 16/04/2010 15:54:33 Is it just me or is that guy from Razor fuc¡king ret¡arded?



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