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Preceptor Stigmartyr
Thunderwaffe
Goonswarm Federation
1
   |
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:02:00 -
[1891] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Preceptor Stigmartyr wrote:
"Them" being carebears who want Eve to be a galactic farmville. Either it's a sandbox or it isn't.
Oh, I'm sorry, maybe you missed the part where your alliance used the 'sandbox' as an excuse to effectively bring an end to the sandbox. Minor detail.
Large transfers of wealth and/or manipulation of markets is common place IRL. The sky isn't falling on wallstreet and so much isk $ has been thrown in the fireplace.
The landscape certainly changes, and power shifts. Welcome to the last 10k years of human history. Eve might be better off to stop piddling with the vapid NPC story lines and weave more of the player corps into the story line. Events like this are a reminder that their creation is possessed by a will of it's own. That will being active players.
We're loud, we're proud, deal with it. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
Independent Faction
66
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:02:00 -
[1892] - Quote
Enaris Kerle wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Oh, I'm sorry, maybe you missed the part where your alliance used the 'sandbox' as an excuse to effectively bring an end to the sandbox. Minor detail. And this scheme broke the sandbox exactly how?
Ok, let me explain then: You rigged both PvP and PvE on a grand scale. Effectively, you successfully ruined the game for thousands of players more than you could have ever hoped to have actually fought in a conventional contest of wealth or military power via exploits and loopholes.
While I congratulate you on your inventiveness, I might point out that while goons policy is to drink the tears of other players, effectively trying to destroy EvE is ultimately counter productive, and if kept up, CCP will have to bring down the hammer on you.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Aryth
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
381
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:03:00 -
[1893] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Enaris Kerle wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Oh, I'm sorry, maybe you missed the part where your alliance used the 'sandbox' as an excuse to effectively bring an end to the sandbox. Minor detail. And this scheme broke the sandbox exactly how? Ok, let me explain then: You rigged both PvP and PvE on a grand scale. Effectively, you successfully ruined the game for thousands of players more than you could have ever hoped to have actually fought in a conventional contest of wealth or military power via exploits and loopholes. While I congratulate you on your inventiveness, I might point out that while goons policy is to drink the tears of other players, effectively trying to destroy EvE is ultimately counter productive, and if kept up, CCP will have to bring down the hammer on you.
I completely agree they would. Hence we kept it low key.
Another pcgamer article from the PR guy.
PCGamer |
Gogela
Direct Action LLC.
820
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:04:00 -
[1894] - Quote
Preceptor Stigmartyr wrote:Enaris Kerle wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:So, in other words, CCP Devs (goons) engineered a situation where Goons (not CCP) made an excessive **** ton of isk, and threatened to obliterate anything remotely resembling the market, and now CCP (not Goons) has come in, confiscated their toys, and slapped them on the wrist.
Mind you, again, if any player corp (not Goons) were to do this, the entire corp would get the ban hammer. But, as usual, goon shenanigans are 'Stop that 'wink wink nudge nudge'.
Let me ask the question that no one else will ask: What does goonswarm have to do to get banned? Shoot Hilmar's family? Blow up a major landmark and kill X hundred people? I mean, seriously, CCP, if any of the rest of us did half this ****, we'd be banned in a second. it's true, everyone who ever manipulated the market in EVE or made money from the PI changes or Pax Amarria got banned, and their entire corp too This.  It seems less about Goon vs. CCP than us vs. them "Them" being carebears who want Eve to be a galactic farmville. Either it's a sandbox or it isn't.
Bullshit.
Who got banned for PI changes?
Who got banned for Pax Amarria?
I haven't heard any of that... what even happened? How would that happen? Got a link? Anyone?
|
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
Independent Faction
66
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:05:00 -
[1895] - Quote
Preceptor Stigmartyr wrote:
Large transfers of wealth and/or manipulation of markets is common place IRL. The sky isn't falling on wallstreet and so much isk $ has been thrown in the fireplace.
Preceptor: again, I think maybe you might have missed some things since that's pretty much exactly why the sky is and has been falling on Wall Street, actually....
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Paint
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
8
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:06:00 -
[1896] - Quote
Gogela wrote:Preceptor Stigmartyr wrote:Enaris Kerle wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:So, in other words, CCP Devs (goons) engineered a situation where Goons (not CCP) made an excessive **** ton of isk, and threatened to obliterate anything remotely resembling the market, and now CCP (not Goons) has come in, confiscated their toys, and slapped them on the wrist.
Mind you, again, if any player corp (not Goons) were to do this, the entire corp would get the ban hammer. But, as usual, goon shenanigans are 'Stop that 'wink wink nudge nudge'.
Let me ask the question that no one else will ask: What does goonswarm have to do to get banned? Shoot Hilmar's family? Blow up a major landmark and kill X hundred people? I mean, seriously, CCP, if any of the rest of us did half this ****, we'd be banned in a second. it's true, everyone who ever manipulated the market in EVE or made money from the PI changes or Pax Amarria got banned, and their entire corp too This. It seems less about Goon vs. CCP than us vs. them "Them" being carebears who want Eve to be a galactic farmville. Either it's a sandbox or it isn't. Bullshit. Who got banned for PI changes? Who got banned for Pax Amarria? I haven't heard any of that... what even happened? How would that happen? Got a link? Anyone?
Again, you guys aren't even giving good examples. Removing the t2 lottery and leaving those bpo in game has allowed the players who own them to print 100s of trillions of isk over the years and they are still at it.
|
Enaris Kerle
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
68
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:07:00 -
[1897] - Quote
Gogela wrote:Preceptor Stigmartyr wrote:Enaris Kerle wrote:
it's true, everyone who ever manipulated the market in EVE or made money from the PI changes or Pax Amarria got banned, and their entire corp too
Bullshit. Who got banned for PI changes? Who got banned for Pax Amarria? I haven't heard any of that... what even happened? How would that happen? Got a link? Anyone?
Nobody got banned. Which is entirely the point I was trying to make re: that guy who wanted to have all goons banned for what is effectively playing the market on a grand scale.
Gallente born and raised, and tutored as a pleasure slave and courtesan to the exotic tastes of the Amarri court. Jade's career veered violently off course when a diplomatic envoy's transport was blown to pieces in mysterious circumstances and she was rescued from the escape pods by the enigmatic genetic mastermind Athule Snanm. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
Independent Faction
67
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:09:00 -
[1898] - Quote
Aryth wrote:I completely agree they would. Hence we kept it low key. Another pcgamer article from the PR guy. PCGamer
I particularly love this part:
"On the other hand I worry that some players donGÇÖt see it that way, that they donGÇÖt understand they are capable of matching GoonswarmGÇÖs (arguable) successes through the strength of their own imagination and social circle and that Goons, like any Alliance in EVEGÇÖs history, arenGÇÖt laser-proof. T"
How exactly does one match the staggering profits of such an exploit after CCP has specifically iced it? Enlighten me as to how I can make trillions in profit with next to no risk whatsoever.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy
Black Sun Alliance
240
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:11:00 -
[1899] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:sabre906 wrote:tl;dr Goon drama  nope
how can that be nope...?
[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/OldST.jpg[/IMG] |
Paint
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
8
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:12:00 -
[1900] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Aryth wrote:I completely agree they would. Hence we kept it low key. Another pcgamer article from the PR guy. PCGamer I particularly love this part: "On the other hand I worry that some players donGÇÖt see it that way, that they donGÇÖt understand they are capable of matching GoonswarmGÇÖs (arguable) successes through the strength of their own imagination and social circle and that Goons, like any Alliance in EVEGÇÖs history, arenGÇÖt laser-proof. T" How exactly does one match the staggering profits of such an exploit after CCP has specifically iced it? Enlighten me as to how I can make trillions in profit with next to no risk whatsoever.
You might try actually reading the thread because a ton of examples have already been given.
|
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
Independent Faction
67
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:12:00 -
[1901] - Quote
Enaris Kerle wrote:
Nobody got banned. Which is entirely the point I was trying to make re: that guy who wanted to have all goons banned for what is effectively playing the market on a grand scale.
While I grant I can't think of anyone getting banned for those particular ones: I might draw your attention to the Moon Goo Recycling exploit that went on for several years. Ph, and that buisness with 'The GM who shall not be named' .
You know, i seem to recall goons being pretty damn hot about some of those and members of both BoB and Goons getting banned in that excrement storm.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
Independent Faction
67
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:14:00 -
[1902] - Quote
Paint wrote:
You might try actually reading the thread because a ton of examples have already been given.
Sorry, after dozens of pages of goons patting themselves on the back, and then goons screaming about their toys being taken away, I decided not to read then entire 94 page thread.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Paint
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
8
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:15:00 -
[1903] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Enaris Kerle wrote:
Nobody got banned. Which is entirely the point I was trying to make re: that guy who wanted to have all goons banned for what is effectively playing the market on a grand scale.
While I grant I can't think of anyone getting banned for those particular ones: I might draw your attention to the Moon Goo Recycling exploit that went on for several years. Ph, and that buisness with 'The GM who shall not be named' . You know, i seem to recall goons being pretty damn hot about some of those and members of both BoB and Goons getting banned in that excrement storm.
You idiot, no goons where involved in that. Second, that was an actual duplication exploit/exploit where they were creating goo from nothing. |
kyrieee
Doctrine.
FEARLESS.
14
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:15:00 -
[1904] - Quote
I do enjoy rivers of tears, but I think it's important for the integrity of the sandbox that these sorts of things aren't reprimanded. EVE isn't a game where the players have to fear the banhammer for scamming, metagaming, ganking or being clever and using certain game mechanics in unintended ways. CCP not interfering is important, and quite frankly the problem was with their design of the system, not a bug in the implementation that was exploited. |
Enaris Kerle
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
70
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:16:00 -
[1905] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Enaris Kerle wrote:
Nobody got banned. Which is entirely the point I was trying to make re: that guy who wanted to have all goons banned for what is effectively playing the market on a grand scale.
While I grant I can't think of anyone getting banned for those particular ones: I might draw your attention to the Moon Goo Recycling exploit that went on for several years. Ph, and that buisness with 'The GM who shall not be named' . .
The Ferrogel dupe exploit was a flaw in the code. This is a flaw in the design. Exactly like PI and Pax, which is why I used those examples.
And comparing this to the t20 incident is just ridiculous and doesn't even warrant a comment.
Gallente born and raised, and tutored as a pleasure slave and courtesan to the exotic tastes of the Amarri court. Jade's career veered violently off course when a diplomatic envoy's transport was blown to pieces in mysterious circumstances and she was rescued from the escape pods by the enigmatic genetic mastermind Athule Snanm. |
Paint
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
8
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:16:00 -
[1906] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Paint wrote:
You might try actually reading the thread because a ton of examples have already been given.
Sorry, after dozens of pages of goons patting themselves on the back, and then goons screaming about their toys being taken away, I decided not to read then entire 94 page thread.
That was obvious. It was also obvious you didn't even read the posts on the same page that listed examples. ACES
|
Xython
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
934
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:20:00 -
[1907] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:How exactly does one match the staggering profits of such an exploit after CCP has specifically iced it? Enlighten me as to how I can make trillions in profit with next to no risk whatsoever.
You'll note that CCP is not calling this an exploit, and in interviews so far they are very carefully not calling it an exploit. |
Graic Gabtar
The Lemon Party
283
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:20:00 -
[1908] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Enaris Kerle wrote:
Nobody got banned. Which is entirely the point I was trying to make re: that guy who wanted to have all goons banned for what is effectively playing the market on a grand scale.
While I grant I can't think of anyone getting banned for those particular ones: I might draw your attention to the Moon Goo Recycling exploit that went on for several years. Ph, and that buisness with 'The GM who shall not be named' . You know, i seem to recall goons being pretty damn hot about some of those and members of both BoB and Goons getting banned in that excrement storm. The difference with the Moon Goo is that something was magically created. It was not a mechanic.
When you are creating items/capability out of thin air you are exploiting a bug.
When you are making wealth by stressing a poorly designed game mechanic you are exploiting CCP hubris.
It is an important difference.
EVE shall be purged by fire - please Gods let them ALL burn in Jita. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
382
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:22:00 -
[1909] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Aryth wrote:I completely agree they would. Hence we kept it low key. Another pcgamer article from the PR guy. PCGamer I particularly love this part: "On the other hand I worry that some players donGÇÖt see it that way, that they donGÇÖt understand they are capable of matching GoonswarmGÇÖs (arguable) successes through the strength of their own imagination and social circle and that Goons, like any Alliance in EVEGÇÖs history, arenGÇÖt laser-proof. T" How exactly does one match the staggering profits of such an exploit after CCP has specifically iced it? Enlighten me as to how I can make trillions in profit with next to no risk whatsoever.
Pretty easily. Speculate on patches. That is what we do. This isn't the first multi-trillion hit we have landed on a patch. |
Simon Page
Page Capital
3
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:22:00 -
[1910] - Quote
Welp: http://www.pcgamesn.com/eve/ccp-respond-goonswarm-eve-heist-goons-arent-laserproof
It's been confirmed that each Goonswarm member did, indeed get 100bn isk from the exploit as rumored. CCP probably hasn't done anything about it yet because of the sheer number of people involved, but I hope they don't confine their confiscations to the 'Jewbal'... |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
Independent Faction
67
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:23:00 -
[1911] - Quote
Enaris Kerle wrote:
The Ferrogel dupe exploit was a flaw in the code. This is a flaw in the design. Exactly like PI and Pax, which is why I used those examples.
And comparing this to the t20 incident is just ridiculous and doesn't even warrant a comment.
So, it being a flaw at the design stage rather than the programming stage or Human Resources stage makes it ok?
I'm sorry, but exploit = exploit =exploit. Whether it's exploiting a contact, a flaw in the code or a poorly planned design decision.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Paint
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
8
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:23:00 -
[1912] - Quote
Graic Gabtar wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Enaris Kerle wrote:
Nobody got banned. Which is entirely the point I was trying to make re: that guy who wanted to have all goons banned for what is effectively playing the market on a grand scale.
While I grant I can't think of anyone getting banned for those particular ones: I might draw your attention to the Moon Goo Recycling exploit that went on for several years. Ph, and that buisness with 'The GM who shall not be named' . You know, i seem to recall goons being pretty damn hot about some of those and members of both BoB and Goons getting banned in that excrement storm. The difference with the Moon Goo is that something was magically created. It was not a mechanic. When you are creating items/capability out of thin air you are exploiting a bug. When you are making wealth by stressing a poorly designed game mechanic you are exploiting CCP hubris. It is an important difference.
You just don't get it. Spending a lot of time and effort figuring out how to buy cheap and sell dear was never intended to be supported by the eve market or mechanics.
OH WAIT.
|
Aryth
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
382
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:24:00 -
[1913] - Quote
Another article
http://www.gameinformer.com/b/news/archive/2012/06/22/eve-players-loot-new-in-game-system-for-unheard-of-wealth-troll-everyone.aspx
CCP is getting a lot of press from this. Looks pretty positive too. |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
1169
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:25:00 -
[1914] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Enlighten me as to how I can make trillions in profit with next to no risk whatsoever.
the risk is CCP not being happy with it and seizing it
or, you know, the plan failing entirely because this isn't the same as mission running
a rogue goon |
Aryth
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
384
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:26:00 -
[1915] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Enaris Kerle wrote:
The Ferrogel dupe exploit was a flaw in the code. This is a flaw in the design. Exactly like PI and Pax, which is why I used those examples.
And comparing this to the t20 incident is just ridiculous and doesn't even warrant a comment.
So, it being a flaw at the design stage rather than the programming stage or Human Resources stage makes it ok? I'm sorry, but exploit = exploit =exploit. Whether it's exploiting a contact, a flaw in the code or a poorly planned design decision.
The ferrogel dupe was an obvious bug. You had a CCP published # for how much crap your silos shoulda been getting per month/hr.
Combining mechanics to make something new is not a bug. Generating material out of thin air is.
We never generated anything out of thin air, everything had a cost. It was just heavily discounted compared to what we could profit. |
Paint
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
9
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:26:00 -
[1916] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Enaris Kerle wrote:
The Ferrogel dupe exploit was a flaw in the code. This is a flaw in the design. Exactly like PI and Pax, which is why I used those examples.
And comparing this to the t20 incident is just ridiculous and doesn't even warrant a comment.
So, it being a flaw at the design stage rather than the programming stage or Human Resources stage makes it ok? I'm sorry, but exploit = exploit =exploit. Whether it's exploiting a contact, a flaw in the code or a poorly planned design decision.
Only if you use the part of the definition in the dictionary that defines exploit as a bold or daring feat. No bug was taken advantage of here. This was strictly market analysis. You haven't the faintest clue of what you are talking about.
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
1107
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:26:00 -
[1917] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Enlighten me as to how I can make trillions in profit with next to no risk whatsoever. the risk is CCP not being happy with it and seizing it or, you know, the plan failing entirely because this isn't the same as mission running
I'd hardly try to claim it was riskless
Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd
Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Xython
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
935
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:26:00 -
[1918] - Quote
From This interview:
http://visir.is/misnotudu-glufu-i-eve-online---hognudust-um-21-milljon-isk-i-leiknum/article/2012120629638
Quote:Spur+¦ur hvort spilararnir ++urfi a+¦ takast +í vi+¦ einhverjar aflei+¦ingar vegna m+ílsins svarar P+¬tur: GÇPT+ªknilega s+¬+¦ voru ++eir ekki a+¦ gera neitt sem var banna+¦. +Pannig ++a+¦ er +¦lj+¦st hva+¦ ver+¦ur gert."
P+¬tur segir spilarana hafa einfaldlega n++tt s+¬r glufu innan leiksins, GÇPog er +¡ raun t++p+¡skt fyrir EVE spilara. +Pa+¦ eru oft +¦tr+¦lega greindir n+íungar a+¦ spila leikinn. +Pa+¦ er frekar a+¦ ++a+¦ s+¬ borin vir+¦ing fyrir hugvitsseminni h+¬r innan h+¦ss," segir P+¬tur a+¦ lokum.
Or, in English:
Quote:Asked whether the players have to deal with any consequences of the case said Peter, "Technically speaking, they were not doing anything that was forbidden. Thus, it is unclear what will be done. "
Peter says the players have simply taken advantage of cracks within the game, "and is actually very typical for EVE players. There are often amazing diagnosed guys playing the game. It is further submitted that it is respect for the creative songwriting here inside the house, "said Peter, in the end.
CCP official: Goon Market Manipulation NOT against the rules, and NOT an exploit.
Tinfoil hat wearing pubbies, your comments?
|
Paint
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
9
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:27:00 -
[1919] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Enaris Kerle wrote:
The Ferrogel dupe exploit was a flaw in the code. This is a flaw in the design. Exactly like PI and Pax, which is why I used those examples.
And comparing this to the t20 incident is just ridiculous and doesn't even warrant a comment.
So, it being a flaw at the design stage rather than the programming stage or Human Resources stage makes it ok? I'm sorry, but exploit = exploit =exploit. Whether it's exploiting a contact, a flaw in the code or a poorly planned design decision. The ferrogel dupe was an obvious bug. You had a CCP published # for how much crap your silos shoulda been getting per month/hr. Combining mechanics to make something new is not a bug. Generating material out of thin air is. We never generated anything out of thin air, everything had a cost. It was just heavily discounted compared to what we could profit.
The best part is the various moon goo dupes back in the day went on for months before anything was done (it might have even been years, much like some of the complex bugs). |
Xython
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
935
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:28:00 -
[1920] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:How exactly does one match the staggering profits of such an exploit after CCP has specifically iced it? Enlighten me as to how I can make trillions in profit with next to no risk whatsoever.
Here you go. Ignore the crackpot pubbies on the forums ranting about how it's oh so dangerous an activity, you'll die on average once a year or so and make a few Trillion with absolutely no risk due to the same crackpot pubbies blubbering to CCP every single time someone looks at them funny. |
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